Topic: Russian Jet Downed by Turkey *

[GBF]

Putin gonna make Turkey into a kebab

[CraigDS]

Kind of agree with you Mouth, it doesn't matter whether it was 1 or 20 miles inside Turkish airspace- the point is the aircraft (supposedly) was after being warned to turn back.

It kind of does matter though doesn't it? I mean by all accounts the stretch they flew over was approx 2 miles wide from entering Turkish space to being out of it.

Surely before shooting down a plane, and more importantly before potentially killing it's crew, it's important to have a bit of perspective as it if it's likely to be flying towards targets in your country or not.

[Mouth]

And you know this how? Through your impeccable deduction skills?

Yes.

[Weby72.]

Kind of agree with you Mouth, it doesn't matter whether it was 1 or 20 miles inside Turkish airspace- the point is the aircraft (supposedly) was after being warned to turn back. Legally they are entitled to defend their borders against armed incursions by warplanes, have issued repeated warnings and published their rules of engagement. Now, it would have been far more preferable if they could have de-escalated this by escorting the Russian jet from their airspace- but can't understand everyone blaming Turkey for this incident? Surely if you are bombing in Syria, the Russian jets could just stay over Syrian airspace?

Look at the map showing the alleged incursion. There's a narrow finger of Turkish territory in the mountains that pokes into Syria. It's this that the Russian pilot has apparently travelled through - and it took a reported 8.5 seconds to do so.

The Russian plane was fired on AFTER it had left Turkish airspace & was back over Syria.

It's like a Russian plane travelling from Ireland to France & skirting across the tip of Land's End, then the RAF following it into French Airspace & shooting it down.

Idiocy from the Turks - but then, the Islamist Erdogan is following his own agenda.

[jooneyisdagod]

It kind of does matter though doesn't it? I mean by all accounts the stretch they flew over was approx 2 miles wide from entering Turkish space to being out of it.

Surely before shooting down a plane, and more importantly before potentially killing it's crew, it's important to have a bit of perspective as it if it's likely to be flying towards targets in your country or not.

Exactly right. I checked out the area on google maps and it appears right in terms of distance. That suggests that it is right that any time spent by the plane in Turkish airspace would have lasted less than 10 sec. It seems like Turkey might have fucked up on this one.

[Mouth]

It kind of does matter though doesn't it? I mean by all accounts the stretch they flew over was approx 2 miles wide from entering Turkish space to being out of it.

Surely before shooting down a plane, and more importantly before potentially killing it's crew, it's important to have a bit of perspective as it if it's likely to be flying towards targets in your country or not.

Its the Russians though, give them an inch and they take a Crimea.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

Its the Russians though, give them an inch and they take a Crimea.

yeah because there are lots of russians in turkey???

[The North Bank]

Ever since the Russians shot down that Dutch passenger plane, they've been getting one aviation nose bleed after another, and there's a lot of people who won't feel sorry for them.

[cdav]

It kind of does matter though doesn't it? I mean by all accounts the stretch they flew over was approx 2 miles wide from entering Turkish space to being out of it.

Surely before shooting down a plane, and more importantly before potentially killing it's crew, it's important to have a bit of perspective as it if it's likely to be flying towards targets in your country or not.

So how far of an incursion into another sovereign country is acceptable then Craig? I understand your points, and agreed by saying in my post it would have been preferable if they could have de-escalated this by escorting the Russian jet from their airspace. But it has repeatedly happened (not just in Turkey, but in other airspaces with the aggressive 'buzzing' tactics)- its not a surprise that these tactics have led to the inevitable.

[elsewhere]

Putin gonna make Turkey into a kebab

Doesn't make sense financilly, we buy pretty much all our natural gas from Russia. They even have agreements on projects for couple nuclear plants in Akkuyu (South Turkey), a 20 billion$ project for 2020 etc.

But I can see Russia bombing all over and also bombing some isolate area in southeast of Turkey border for a warning.

[Mouth]

yeah because there are lots of russians in turkey???

My point is you let Russia take the piss at your peril.

There is long standing tension between Russia and Turkey, its no surprise they are poking at each other and that something like this was possible.

Also, the Turks didn't just see it zip past then decide to fire upon it.

They will have tracked it and known its flight path, sent out warnings, that if it entered their airspace that it would be fired upon, doesn't matter if its 2 miles 200 or 20, its their airspace, they gave warnings, they made good on them.
Where it was fired upon, got hit and went down are probably not the same thing, it was likely fired upon in their airspace.

I'd hazard a guess, once again using my powers of deduction from watching recent events and past Russian behaviour, that the reason the Russian pilot ignored it and did it anyway, is because it was only a little bit and that they have been doing it all the time and getting away with it.

These are the sorts of stupid little border spats that wars start over. There are always wider issues and objectives of course, but the spark can often be something small like a violation of airspace and downing of a plane.

[Trada]

Some footage going around of the rebels using an advanced USA build missile Tor system blowing up a Russian helicopter on the ground.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/mfyQZTkGKXw&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/mfyQZTkGKXw&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

Ever since the Russians shot down that Dutch passenger plane, they've been getting one aviation nose bleed after another, and there's a lot of people who won't feel sorry for them.

is all a bit coincidental.
maybe the russian plane was taken out indirectly by the west in retaliation and the jet taken out from similar advice???

[The North Bank]

The Russians once shot down a Korean passenger plane that accidentally flew into their airspace, 262 people died. People panic and make dangerous choices in dangerous times.
Uk jets don't even fly over Syria because they only have a request of help from the Iraqi government. We respect syrias sovereignty even though it's a lawless place. Boundaries are there for a reason, time the Russians respect that.

[Les Willis]

I agree with Mouth that the Russians have been sailing/flying close to everyone's borders recently (as a show of strength), but in this case when all sides are supposedly fighting the same battle, you'd expect a little bit more co-operation/understanding from Turkey.

I haven't felt the World this close to global conflict since the early 1980s.

[CraigDS]

So how far of an incursion into another sovereign country is acceptable then Craig? I understand your points, and agreed by saying in my post it would have been preferable if they could have de-escalated this by escorting the Russian jet from their airspace. But it has repeatedly happened (not just in Turkey, but in other airspaces with the aggressive 'buzzing' tactics)- its not a surprise that these tactics have led to the inevitable.

For me it wouldn't be a case of distance, it would be a case of direction, location compared to possible targets, etc. etc. It could be they are 100m into the air space, it could be they are 10 miles, but if they aren't showing intent to hit targets then I think taking the option of shooting down the plane as excessive.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

My point is you let Russia take the piss at your peril.

There is long standing tension between Russia and Turkey, its no surprise they are poking at each other and that something like this was possible.

Also, the Turks didn't just see it zip past then decide to fire upon it.

They will have tracked it and known its flight path, sent out warnings, that if it entered their airspace that it would be fired upon, doesn't matter if its 2 miles 200 or 20, its their airspace, they gave warnings, they made good on them.
Where it was fired upon, got hit and went down are probably not the same thing, it was likely fired upon in their airspace.

I'd hazard a guess, once again using my powers of deduction from watching recent events and past Russian behaviour, that the reason the Russian pilot ignored it and did it anyway, is because it was only a little bit and that they have been doing it all the time and getting away with it.

These are the sorts of stupid little border spats that wars start over. There are always wider issues and objectives of course, but the spark can often be something small like a violation of airspace and downing of a plane.

where si the evidence they will bomb a turkish city?
its not like there is previous like when the west arm rebels who then come back to bite us.....

can understand if turkey got paranoid with the report that came out....no names were mentioned but they have to be prime suspects for helping isis funding.

[elsewhere]

I agree with Mouth that the Russians have been sailing/flying close to everyone's borders recently (as a show of strength), but in this case when all sides are supposedly fighting the same battle, you'd expect a little bit more co-operation/understanding from Turkey.

I haven't felt the World this close to global conflict since the early 1980s.

is the key word. Erdogan and AKP has been financing ISIS and sending them trucks of guns. I have mentioned several times in the other thread. Putin recently openly blamed us in G20 meeting.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

turkey got rattled and struck out.
nato have to expel them and their chances of eu inclusion has to be scrapped.

[Snail]

Erdogan's a bit problematic.

[Cattive Maniere]

turkey got rattled and struck out.
nato have to expel them and their chances of eu inclusion has to be scrapped.

This!

[elsewhere]

turkey got rattled and struck out.
nato have to expel them and their chances of eu inclusion has to be scrapped.

Current islamic turkish government has no such intentions whatsoever though.

[Mouth]

turkey got rattled and struck out.
nato have to expel them and their chances of eu inclusion has to be scrapped.

If it means we can boot their teams out of the Champions League and Europa cup, I'm all for it.

[Trada]

A Russian analyst is saying Russia may now send fighter jets to protect the bombers then it will get very hairy if anything happens.

[elsewhere]

If it means we can boot their teams out of the Champions League and Europa cup, I'm all for it.

 

[...]

A Russian analyst is saying Russia may now send fighter jets to protect the bombers they it will get very hairy if anything happens.

They're both taking the piss aren't they but what can you expect with everything going on?! They can't let the US do as they please.

[Pheeny]

They're both taking the piss aren't they but what can you expect with everything going on?! They can't let the US do as they please.

It was Turkey.

[GBF]

Doesn't make sense financilly, we buy pretty much all our natural gas from Russia. They even have agreements on projects for couple nuclear plants in Akkuyu (South Turkey), a 20 billion$ project for 2020 etc.

But I can see Russia bombing all over and also bombing some isolate area in southeast of Turkey border for a warning.

Dont think they will attack Turkey but they may indirectly make a push for a change of power in the idiotic turkish government specially with Turkey being a gateway for the ISIS members to get in and out of Syria and the Turkish govt is busy attacking Kurds instead.

I may not agree on Putin's politics but at least he is one of the few who is actually doing something to help removing the torn in everyone's arses

[Cruiser]

Syrian Turkmen brigade deputy commander Alpaslan Celik tells Reuters:

    "Both of the pilots were retrieved dead. Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air."

Not a good idea to be saying this. Russia will bomb them to smithereens now.

Classless shooting at parachuted pilots.

[Snail]

Syrian Turkmen brigade deputy commander Alpaslan Celik tells Reuters:

    "Both of the pilots were retrieved dead. Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air."

Not a good idea to be saying this. Russia will bomb them to smithereens now.

Classless shooting at parachuted pilots.

I'm pretty sure it's also against the Geneva Convention (with the exception of paratroopers) - someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[elsewhere]

Turkmens kill the Russian soldiers who escaped from the jets with parachutes on air.
Worst move by them. Maybe they were clueless whose soldiers they were.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw85rcghoJU

[The North Bank]

Syrian Turkmen brigade deputy commander Alpaslan Celik tells Reuters:

    "Both of the pilots were retrieved dead. Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air."

Not a good idea to be saying this. Russia will bomb them to smithereens now.

Classless shooting at parachuted pilots.

The Russians have been bombing them though, they see Russia as the enemy, and its pilots as the ones bringing down terror from the sky, not sure why anyone expected a different outcome, people underestimate the terror a hi tech fighter jet strikes into people when it comes down to bomb them. That plane wasn't in Syria on a sightseeing mission.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Is it me, or are things getting a bit mad, Ted?

[The North Bank]

Is it me, or are things getting a bit mad, Ted?

It's just not cricket Harry.

[Trada]

Is it me, or are things getting a bit mad, Ted?

Don't worry we will send our few bombers in soon to sort it all out, don't worry Cameron's got this sorted.  Remember he has a cunning plan.

One part of the plan is for everyone to have a little break to 2025.

[zero zero]

I'm pretty sure it's also against the Geneva Convention (with the exception of paratroopers) - someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I would expect that the Syrian Turkmen have not signed the Geneva Conventions.

[PhilV]

The Turkish data is all levels of messed up, they say the Russian plane invaded their airspace for 5 minutes and received 10 warnings prior to shooting, yet their own radar data doesn't support that as a fighter jet travelling at high speeds would cover that distance in less than 30 seconds... so what gives?

Also the video of Syrian Turkmen shooting at the parachuting pilots is disgusting, an act of war and a war crime as defined by the Geneva convention.

This is all sorts of fucked up, Putin is by no means a lovely man we can all get behind but on this instance he is well within his rights to be angry and demand some action from NATO/The West... the silence from everyone says a lot though...

Also it is laughable a country like Turkey shoots down a plane, knwoing it is Russian and thus posing no harm to Turkey for violating it's airspace when Turkey violated Armenian airspace with no known intentions months ago (Armenia complained to NATO, nothing was done) and Turkey violates Greek airspace almost daily, I believe over 1000+ violations in 2014 alone, over 15 in one single day.


Turkey is full of shit and if Russia's claim that they buy million of pounds worth of oil from Daesh/IS possible 100's of millions then they are directly funding these terrorists.

Fucked up.

[Snail]

I would expect that the Syrian Turkmen have not signed the Geneva Conventions.

The thought did occur to me after I posted that

[QC]

What on earth were Turkey thinking?

[Fat Scouser]

Very worrying development. Politicians forced into making those hard decisions above and beyond robbing the poor.