Topic: Russian Jet Downed by Turkey *

[oldfordie]

Grandchildren.

 

So this is all over a Russian jet flying over Turkeys airspace for 11-17 secs.
Turkey may well regret this bitterly. I wouldn't want our Country to back them, sounds like they reacted because the Russians hurt there feelings rather than national security.
Makes you wonder if someones overstepped the mark and acted in anger rather than a calculated response.
Russia has no alternative but to respond to this now and the tit for tat begins, the relationship between Russia and the USA + UK is bad enough and I imagine we will tag along with the USA as usual. we need to take a step backward and keep out of it.

[The North Bank]

So now a russian marine is confirmed dead, killed by rebel gunfire as his helicopter looked for the crash site of the plane. It's all turning ugly, and we haven't got to Isis yet.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

They were well within their right to shoot down the jjet, sure. But they shouldn't have and the escalation is purely on Turkish shoulders.

It was in Turkish airspace for 11 seconds, and only ever headed back towards Syrian territory. Missle-lock, buzz it, send another angry letter to the Russian ambassador. Now they've just opened a hornet's nest. There's zero gain for Turkey.

I'm sure their bombing runs on Syrian Kurds will be several factors more dangerous for the pilots now, too. Just all a bit silly from Turkey, ain't it. And those Turkmen they swore to protect, good luck with that now.

Border airspace violations are not that uncommon. The usual practice is to send interceptors and escort the intruder out, provided the intruder is not hostile.

It was stupendously stupid of Turkey to shoot it down on the first chance they got.

Irrespective of what the shit stirrer whose post you quoted says. 

Cannot believe there are apologists for Turkey in this thread.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

So now a russian marine is confirmed dead, killed by rebel gunfire as his helicopter looked for the crash site of the plane. It's all turning ugly, and we haven't got to Isis yet.

Thanks to our Turkish friends.

For the first time in months, we had some consensus between the different parties/nations fighting ISIS.

Not onky have Turkey not contributed anything to the war against ISIS, they have been tacitly supporting them as well. And bomb the fuck out of the Kurds.

The last thing they want is hundreds of russian fighters and bombers assemble in Syria near the border, as deterrence and insurance against futher attacks like this.

[21]

Turkey violated Greek airspace 2,244 times in 2014…that number is probably well up in 2015 too.
That is on average over 6 times a day.
I’ve been on the island of my ancestry (Rhodes) and had Turkish jets zoom over my head on a few occasions.

Turkish people are good people in my experience, migrants abroad and locals, but their government has delusions of being an Asia Minor supremo rehashing Ottoman Empire days. Is it a coincidence that every nation that borders Turkey has a cold-conflict with them?

They’ve bitten off more they can chew with Russia, hopefully the good of all this is the supply of arms/goods/money is bombed into oblivion.

Every war in human history is effected by finances, cut ISIS’ funding (Saudi/Turkey/Qatar) and this disappears soon after.

[stevensr123]

So the plane entered the air space for 11 seconds, and was actually hit while outside the said air space. But for some reason turkey things 11 seconds is enough time to give them enough warnings and time? Fucking joke. Can't believe people and governments are defending turkey for this action. Absolutely despicable not matter what you think of Russia.

[TepidT2O]

So the plane entered the air space for 11 seconds, and was actually hit while outside the said air space. But for some reason turkey things 11 seconds is enough time to give them enough warnings and time? Fucking joke. Can't believe people and governments are defending turkey for this action. Absolutely despicable not matter what you think of Russia.

Russia has ignored Turkish air space time and time again...

The Russians can't say they weren't warned.. However, frankly the Turkish government are fucking idiots.

Still, given that the Turks rely on Russia for their natural gas and a large amount of their trade, there's probably a very easy way to punish the Turks rather than retaliatory shootings....

Turn off the gas, and I suspect the Turks will change their tune.

[outlaw_nas]

Am I the only one who thinks turkey would've only shot plane down with go ahead from the states?

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

Am I the only one who thinks turkey would've only shot plane down with go ahead from the states?

No chance. They're still a sovereign nation, albeit one under the thumb of the Yankees since the Jupiter missile placements in the mid-20th century.

If I was the leader of the Russian military (not Putin) I wouldn't be particularly happy with the violations of the Geneva Convention seemingly being ignored by the Western diplomats and the blame being placed back at my door.

No chance was that Russian jet a threat to Turkey, yet the two pilots have been shot and then a third has been blew up after being deployed on a rescue mission. The handwringing of NATO is an absolute joke.

"Our Rebels are better than your Rebels". This has gone far beyond sabre rattling as three military personnel are dead.

They should send MIGs out with their bombers with permission to engage, simple as that.

[Zeb]

Am I the only one who thinks turkey would've only shot plane down with go ahead from the states?

Sure you won't be, but I wouldn't think it's likely at all. The NATO meeting subtext was "you didn't have to shoot the plane down to make your point, even if you're legally within your rights to". Obama's comments came across to me as a polite way of saying "if you're going to wave your dick around, then you've got to be an adult about dealing with the consequences and not dive behind NATO as soon as you stick it into the bear's eye". Think there'd have been a fair amount of rude words said when Turkey informed other NATO members, including the US, what it had done. They had the Russians scheduled to be there today to discuss Russian planes entering Turkish airspace amongst other things. Not happening now.

[The North Bank]

In my opinion they shot it down because it was bombing the Turkmen Rebels, they have shot down a few Syrian jets, all Russian made so maybe they thought this was syrian too, don't really buy the airspace thing as they shot it down over Syria, means the Turks thenselves violated Syrian airspace.
On the other hand if the Russians want to bomb the American backed anti assad rebels,instead of Isis,  then you can't criticise those rebels for using their hi tech US weapons to blow up a helicopter or 2.
All of a sudden Isis become a sideshow to the new Cold War.

[TepidT2O]

Am I the only one who thinks turkey would've only shot plane down with go ahead from the states?

I very much suspect that they might have done so.

Again, the Russians were warned.  The Turks shot down a Russian drone earlier this year for exactly the same reason.  As I say though, the Turkish government are still fucking idiots for doing it.

It must be said, this won't result in any war.  Over the course of he Cold War the Russian pilots shot down very many US planes, and there was never an excessive response.

This will be a diplomatic conflict and nothing more.

The Russians have the Turks by the balls because they supply them with gas.  But the Turks have the Russians by the balls as they control entrance to and from the Black Sea. 

The Russians can't get equipment to Syria without the Turks letting their ships pass.
No side has an advantage here, but Russia has had conflict with Turkey for hundreds of years over their control of access to the Mediterranean.  Russia would love to control Turkey for this reason

[Fiasco]

Cannot believe there are apologists for Turkey in this thread.

More by proxy of people being anti-Russian than anything else I would say. If this was the other way around (somehow) the reaction would be different.

[TepidT2O]

More by proxy of people being anti-Russian than anything else I would say. If this was the other way around (somehow) the reaction would be different.

What the Turkish government have done is inexcusable.

But as I said above, since the Second World War, Russian pilots have shot down many US planes.

[Fiasco]

What the Turkish government have done is inexcusable.

But as I said above, since the Second World War, Russian pilots have shot down many US planes.

Of course. But that line of thinking can be dangerous, can it not? The Russians are a weird bunch but if you go back far enough you can blame everyone for everything. The timing of this could not be any worse. Just when there was hope and indeed some action on co-operating with Putin to fight IS this happens. For simple bravado alone the US and NATO forces will seem to side with the Turks and their right to act but behind the scenes there will be a lot of anger and sheer amazement as to why the Turks would do such a thing.

[SP]

Turkey violating Greek air space is slightly different. They were not engaged in bombing ethnic Greeks at the time.

This topic has too many trite conclusions. Neither side has clean hands. There are certain posters who appear to be giving Russia a free pass because they'd rather stick the boot into the Americans.

Turkey have done some deeply unpleasant things in this conflict. This incident, if the NATO version holds water is one of the more defensible ones.

[SP]

In my opinion they shot it down because it was bombing the Turkmen Rebels, they have shot down a few Syrian jets, all Russian made so maybe they thought this was syrian too, don't really buy the airspace thing as they shot it down over Syria, means the Turks thenselves violated Syrian airspace.
On the other hand if the Russians want to bomb the American backed anti assad rebels,instead of Isis,  then you can't criticise those rebels for using their hi tech US weapons to blow up a helicopter or 2.
All of a sudden Isis become a sideshow to the new Cold War.

The airspace thing is a big deal though.  The Russians were commiting hostile acts to Turkmen when they violated Turkish airspace giving Turkey the legal justification to shoot it down. This was not a plane playing Cold War cat and mouse, it was on a combat mission, it entered Turkish Air space and it did not answer radio calls.

It was a darn sight more hostile than Korean Airways flight 007.

[The North Bank]

The airspace thing is a big deal though.  The Russians were commiting hostile acts to Turkmen when they violated Turkish airspace giving Turkey the legal justification to shoot it down. This was not a plane playing Cold War cat and mouse, it was on a combat mission, it entered Turkish Air space and it did not answer radio calls.

It was a darn sight more hostile than Korean Airways flight 007.

I agree , but by the time it was shot down it was in Syrias air space, which makes it look extemely hostile, my views would be different if it was shot over Turkey, but 11 seconds over Turkey and shot over Syria makes me think the Turks had real intent to destroy it.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

I very much suspect that they might have done so.

Again, the Russians were warned.  The Turks shot down a Russian drone earlier this year for exactly the same reason.  As I say though, the Turkish government are still fucking idiots for doing it.

It must be said, this won't result in any war.  Over the course of he Cold War the Russian pilots shot down very many US planes, and there was never an excessive response.

This will be a diplomatic conflict and nothing more.

The Russians have the Turks by the balls because they supply them with gas.  But the Turks have the Russians by the balls as they control entrance to and from the Black Sea. 

The Russians can't get equipment to Syria without the Turks letting their ships pass.
No side has an advantage here, but Russia has had conflict with Turkey for hundreds of years over their control of access to the Mediterranean.  Russia would love to control Turkey for this reason

You keep beating the they were warned drum without considering the fact that international borderline airspace violations are quite regular and usually involves a few interceptor planes guiding the intruder away. Hell, even Pakistanis did not shoot down an intruding IAF foghter. Rather they scrambled F16s and intercepted it and consequently escorted it away.

Turkey violating Greek air space is slightly different. They were not engaged in bombing ethnic Greeks at the time.

This topic has too many trite conclusions. Neither side has clean hands. There are certain posters who appear to be giving Russia a free pass because they'd rather stick the boot into the Americans.

Turkey have done some deeply unpleasant things in this conflict. This incident, if the NATO version holds water is one of the more defensible ones]

Yeah so very justified of them to shoot down a plane for an 8 second violation of their airspace, that may or may not have happened.

Any reason to accpte the veracity of the Turkish version of events?

Shooting down the pilots was a despicable act of cowardice and indefensible.

Frankly not surprised to see the apologists out in full force, the same ones who backed invading Iraq, Libya, afghanistan and other such civilizing excursions from our nato buddies.

[SP]

I agree , but by the time it was shot down it was in Syrias air space, which makes it look extemely hostile, my views would be different if it was shot over Turkey, but 11 seconds over Turkey and shot over Syria makes me think the Turks had real intent to destroy it.

Undoubtedly, but it was gross incompetence by the Russians for giving them the legal standing to do so. The Russian justification for that bombing run is far weaker than the Turkish legal claim for their course of action.

[SP]

You keep beating the they were warned drum without considering the fact that international borderline airspace violations are quite regular and usually involves a few interceptor planes guiding the intruder away. Hell, even Pakistanis did not shoot down an intruding IAF foghter. Rather they scrambled F16s and intercepted it and consequently escorted it away.

Turkey violating Greek air space is slightly different. They were not engaged in bombing ethnic Greeks at the time.

This topic has too many trite conclusions. Neither side has clean hands. There are certain posters who appear to be giving Russia a free pass because they'd rather stick the boot into the Americans.

Turkey have done some deeply unpleasant things in this conflict. This incident, if the NATO version holds water is one of the more defensible ones]

Yeah so very justified of them to shoot down a plane for an 8 second violation of their airspace, that may or may not have happened.

Any reason to accpte the veracity of the Turkish version of events?

Shooting down the pilots was a despicable act of cowardice and indefensible.

Frankly not surprised to see the apologists out in full force, the same ones who backed invading Iraq, Libya, afghanistan and other such civilizing excursions from our nato buddies.

You keep beating the they were warned drum without considering the fact that international borderline airspace violations are quite regular and usually involves a few interceptor planes guiding the intruder away. Hell, even Pakistanis did not shoot down an intruding IAF foghter. Rather they scrambled F16s and intercepted it and consequently escorted it away.

Turkey violating Greek air space is slightly different. They were not engaged in bombing ethnic Greeks at the time.

This topic has too many trite conclusions. Neither side has clean hands. There are certain posters who appear to be giving Russia a free pass because they'd rather stick the boot into the Americans.

Turkey have done some deeply unpleasant things in this conflict. This incident, if the NATO version holds water is one of the more defensible ones]

Yeah so very justified of them to shoot down a plane for an 8 second violation of their airspace, that may or may not have happened.

Any reason to accpte the veracity of the Turkish version of events?

Shooting down the pilots was a despicable act of cowardice and indefensible.

Frankly not surprised to see the apologists out in full force, the same ones who backed invading Iraq, Libya, afghanistan and other such civilizing excursions from our nato buddies.

Extreme cowardice? That plane was on a combat mission killing people on the ground.

[Trada]

They are saying one pilot is alive.

[TepidT2O]

They are saying one pilot is alive.

Some good news at least...

[Trada]

One of the two Russian pilots in a jet shot down by Turkey yesterday was rescued by the Syrian army and is being taken back to base, the Russian ambassador to France has said.

[TepidT2O]

You keep beating the they were warned drum without considering the fact that international borderline airspace violations are quite regular and usually involves a few interceptor planes guiding the intruder away. Hell, even Pakistanis did not shoot down an intruding IAF foghter. Rather they scrambled F16s and intercepted it and consequently escorted it away.

I'm not 'beating' on about anything.

I'm trying to make the point that both sides could have avoided this.  Obviously the Turks were fucking stupid, but also the Russians aren't exactly covering themselves in glory either.  Given that repeatedly they had been warned and then had a drone shot down in the same way, it might have been wiser not to do it any more?

[Red Beret]

Seems it's too much effort for all the bastards at the top NOT to have a war.  And why not?  It's not like it will be their kids who suffer and die; not like they're wondering where their next meal will come from or whether they're going to live through the night.

We've all been here before haven't we?  Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it - but those who do learn from history are doomed to facepalm, cry and shake their heads in bewilderment as those who didn't repeat it.

Because it's always the likes of us who remember, and never them.

[Broad Spectrum]

Russian aircraft have repeatedly violated Turkish airspace over the last 18 months, first with the conflict in Crimea and now with the bombing campaign in Syria. There are various incidents of Russian aircraft violating Turkish airspace over the Black Sea despite numerous warnings from Turkey (no doubt supported and encouraged by other NATO members). And now with the campaign in Syria, they've clearly pushed their luck on too many occasions and Turkey have responded. I've no doubt behind the scenes the UK, US, France etc. are all fully supportive of their actions.

[oldfordie]

Question is, how will Russia respond.?
Hopefully it will be through sanctions, cutting off Turkeys gas maybe.
They will continue to fly near Turkeys borders but I imagine they will now warn Turkey if any of there fighters are targeted then they will attack, knock out the Turkish defences near the border etc.
Russia warned the USA +UK last year, they felt they had been shown a lack of respect, they will now feel Turkey has shown contempt for them as a Superpower and a point has to be made.

[Gerrard#1]

Rubin Kazan or Fenerbahce?

It's FC Rubin now mate. Keep up.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

They will use escort fighters with massive BVR capabilities to protect their ground attack planes.

As far as i know, they havent used escort air superiority fighters in their sorties in Syria so far, because Isis plus Nusra et al do not pose an aerial threat. Now they will.

If the Turks try something again, those F16s will not know what hit them. The Russians have the likes of Mig 31 and Su 35 exactly for that kind of scenario.

[CHOPPER]

They are saying one pilot is alive.

They're a pilot light

[cdav]

Question is, how will Russia respond.?
Hopefully it will be through sanctions, cutting off Turkeys gas maybe.
They will continue to fly near Turkeys borders but I imagine they will now warn Turkey if any of there fighters are targeted then they will attack, knock out the Turkish defences near the border etc.
Russia warned the USA +UK last year, they felt they had been shown a lack of respect, they will now feel Turkey has shown contempt for them as a Superpower and a point has to be made.

I don't think they will react by cutting off the gas- they need the sales  and the associated flow of foreign currency due to the sanctions. Cutting the gas supply could also lead to a tit-for-tat response with Turkey cutting Russia's access from the Black Sea to the Med, I just can't see it happening. I think there will be a lot of rhetoric, hot air and posturing but nothing will actually come of it.

I would also hope that Russia's response would not be driven by a supposed lack of respect and contempt for them as a superpower, that way always leads to stupid decisions.   

[Sindri]

Am I the only one that feels highly uncomfortable with the fact a nation like Turkey is a member of Nato and there for has a defense pact with the west? Given the recent swing towards Islamism in Turkish government and there long standing "cold war" with all of its neighbours, not to mention its human rights issues, alleged support of ISIS and opposition to the only effective boots on the ground in Syria(the Kurds).

Who´s wrong or right in this case is any ones guess. The Russians where being Russians and pushing the limits and the Turks probably had a trigger happy Colonel edging for a fight.
Completely avoidable by both sides with a little bit of common sense. Pretty sure its all gonna be taken out on some innocent civilians somewhere 

[zebenzui]

Cutting the gas supply could also lead to a tit-for-tat response with Turkey cutting Russia's access from the Black Sea to the Med, I just can't see it happening.

That old chestnut.

[oldfordie]

I don't think they will react by cutting off the gas- they need the sales  and the associated flow of foreign currency due to the sanctions. Cutting the gas supply could also lead to a tit-for-tat response with Turkey cutting Russia's access from the Black Sea to the Med, I just can't see it happening. I think there will be a lot of rhetoric, hot air and posturing but nothing will actually come of it.

I would also hope that Russia's response would not be driven by a supposed lack of respect and contempt for them as a superpower, that way always leads to stupid decisions.

Thanks for the info on the sanctions tit for tat, I hope your right.
I think theres no doubt, Russia have felt the respect they demand as a Superpower has disappeared the last few years. lack of respect for them as a Superpower also means lack of fear.
 It depends on whose point of view your looking from. the USA get away with murder because the world knows just how powerful they are, Country's know the price they will pay if they physically attack USA interests. right or wrong doesn't come into it. Russia will now feel things have gone too far and it's time to do what they warned  they would do last year. flex their muscles and remind the world they are a Superpower.

[Broad Spectrum]

They're a pilot light

So bad, yet still made me laugh!

[PhilV]

Two to tango and all that but they violated Turkish airspace (apparently) so there's no excusing them. They knew the potential consequences and did it anyway. They don't violate air space, there is no issue. Assuming that they did violate airspace, that is.

On the flip side of the coin a Turkish jet got shot down for an incursion into Syrian airspace in 2012 I believe and they said it was terrible and a massive overreaction... they also have violated Armenia airspace just months ago and Greek and Cypriot space is violated almost daily.

On this occasion Turkey is full of shit and NATO backing them up just shows how spineless they are and they need Turkey to serve a purpose, what has happened is idiotic.

Anyone saying they had a right to do so is mental, you're telling me a country has a right to shoot down a plane with two men on board for a 10-18 second stray into airspace, that is bonkers, no two ways about it, what about escorting it out like we do here?

Fucks sake.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

Great post.

[BeautifulGame91]

Rescued pilot claims he had no warning


A Russian airman who has survived the downing of his warplane says Turkish jets did not issue any visual or radio warnings.

Captain Konstantin Murakhtin said that he couldn't possibly have flown over into Turkish airspace because the crew knew the region "like the back of their hand".

Mr Muravkin was rescued early this morning by Russian and Syrian commandoes and was speaking in televised comments from the Russian Hemeimeem air base in Syria.

Also
Russia hitting Turkey where it hurts

Russian news agency RIA Novosti reports that Russian deputies have submitted a bill to hold to account anyone who denies the Armenian genocide.

This is rather unsubtle dig to Turkey - who deny that the 1915 massacres constitute a genocide. It is believed this lasted until 1917 and led to 1.5 million Armenians killed - a figure Turkey disputes, putting the figure at 300,000 to 600,000.

In total, 18 countries accept the massacres as genocide, including Germany, Greece, and France.

[zero zero]

Great post.

Akin to watching a toddler smear faeces on a wall and proclaiming it great art. Bravo! Bravo!

Time to leave the nursery methinks.