Author Topic: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people  (Read 105262 times)

Offline TSC

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #80 on: March 10, 2014, 05:02:49 pm »
Doesn't the black box have a locator device? Isn't that how they found the french plane?

Yes apparently this transmits for around 14 days but no idea why there's been nothing even on this.  Of course maybe there has been and news just hasn't been released.  And I've no idea how strong any signal may be if the black box is on the sea bed.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #81 on: March 10, 2014, 05:33:17 pm »
Yes apparently this transmits for around 14 days but no idea why there's been nothing even on this.  Of course maybe there has been and news just hasn't been released.  And I've no idea how strong any signal may be if the black box is on the sea bed.

The signal has a certain range so search and rescue would have a hard time locating it especially if they're not searching in the right areas for plane debris
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #82 on: March 10, 2014, 05:37:18 pm »
The signal has a certain range so search and rescue would have a hard time locating it especially if they're not searching in the right areas for plane debris
Especially if it's two miles down under the sea to start with.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #83 on: March 10, 2014, 05:40:26 pm »
Yes apparently this transmits for around 14 days but no idea why there's been nothing even on this.  Of course maybe there has been and news just hasn't been released.  And I've no idea how strong any signal may be if the black box is on the sea bed.

The signal strength will be key, each and every CVR / CVFDR has to meet the requirements of EUROCAE ED-112 which is the minimum operational performance specification for CPARS (Crash Protected Airborne Recorder Systems) and meet the locally defined regulations for the CAA the airline operates under.  The CPARS generally requires ULB (underwater locating beacons) to operate to a depth 20,000 ft without failure, ULB's have been known to emit identifiable pings at 30,000ft depth.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2014, 05:53:37 pm »
The signal has a certain range so search and rescue would have a hard time locating it especially if they're not searching in the right areas for plane debris

Range isn’t necessarily the issue; most ULB’s emit pings at about 160 dB’s, roughly every second, which is obviously a very identifiable locator and can be picked up on sonar literally hundreds of miles away. The issue is sound propagation – the ocean contains lots of noise sources that can and will interfere with the echo of the ping, in some oceans it has been reported that it degrades the ping echo to about ¼ of a mile away – a perverbial needle in a haystack.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2014, 06:40:04 pm »
Why are they searching the seas? 

Wouldn't it also be possible that there is an electrical/fuel/whatever problem that causes everything to shut down and the plane glides/crash lands onto the land? 

Isn't it more helpful to also search above Cambodia, Vietnam or the areas around it?  There are quite a bit of sparsely populated jungle anyway.

Thats an enormous area you're talking about. They are searching the sea because that's where it was flying when they lost contact.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2014, 06:45:40 pm »
Especially if it's two miles down under the sea to start with.

It depends whether it's on the ocean bed or continental shelf. It would make a big difference. Had a quick look on Google Maps and it looks like it would be on the continental shelf.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2014, 06:59:35 pm »
Range isn’t necessarily the issue; most ULB’s emit pings at about 160 dB’s, roughly every second, which is obviously a very identifiable locator and can be picked up on sonar literally hundreds of miles away. The issue is sound propagation – the ocean contains lots of noise sources that can and will interfere with the echo of the ping, in some oceans it has been reported that it degrades the ping echo to about ¼ of a mile away – a perverbial needle in a haystack.

Do you know how long the locator beacon transmits?

I remember hearing 30 days but not 100% sure.

On another note, I know they want to be thorough but searching the Strait of Malacca? The plane would've had to turn around and fly back over Malaysia undetected to get there. But I guess if search and rescue feel they have enough resources. Or maybe they have a lead that they're not yet releasing.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2014, 07:04:11 pm »
Do you know how long the locator beacon transmits?

I remember hearing 30 days but not 100% sure.

On another note, I know they want to be thorough but searching the Strait of Malacca? The plane would've had to turn around and fly back over Malaysia undetected to get there. But I guess if search and rescue feel they have enough resources or maybe they have a lead that they're not yet releasing.

We use the Dukane ULB on our products which has a minimum of 30 days.  Some other ULB's do have an upper limit of around 28-30 days.....I'm not sure what ULB's or CVR / CVFDR's are used on MAL.

I heard about the the searching the Strait of Malacca, which as you say, seems a little strange in relation to A/C direction - best to search all applicable areas though - and the  Strait of Malacca is fairly small in size and only has a detectable depth of about 800ft in its deepest part, so should be a quick search.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2014, 07:15:36 pm »
It depends whether it's on the ocean bed or continental shelf. It would make a big difference. Had a quick look on Google Maps and it looks like it would be on the continental shelf.
Just looked, seems most of the Eastern search is concentrated on the Gulf of Thailand which has a max depth of 80m according to Wiki.  Massive area to survey though.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 07:25:20 pm by CornerFlag »
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2014, 08:56:33 pm »
Thought it would be full of conspiracy theories in here. Aliens had took it, it is being stored for another 9/11, Jimmy Saville etc.

Pretty good to see everyone being civil and all that.

Hope they find out what happened soon.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #91 on: March 10, 2014, 09:06:47 pm »
Thought it would be full of conspiracy theories in here. Aliens had took it, it is being stored for another 9/11, Jimmy Saville etc.

Pretty good to see everyone being civil and all that.

Hope they find out what happened soon.

Thankfully we don't go for that shit on here and people seem to respect that.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2014, 09:09:20 pm »
Thought it would be full of conspiracy theories in here. Aliens had took it, it is being stored for another 9/11, Jimmy Saville etc.

We know you are just running interference, covering for the actions of Bellemy and his Triffid jihadis. His botanical way of life will not defeat our love of freedom and democracy!

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2014, 09:26:48 pm »
I just can't understand how in this day and age with all the technology available, a multi million pound passenger jet can just disappear and no one have a clue where it is. Just doesn't seem right to me.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #94 on: March 10, 2014, 09:31:20 pm »
I just can't understand how in this day and age with all the technology available, a multi million pound passenger jet can just disappear and no one have a clue where it is. Just doesn't seem right to me.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #95 on: March 10, 2014, 09:33:28 pm »
Thanks for that. Wasn't aware of that crash.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #96 on: March 10, 2014, 09:34:33 pm »
I just can't understand how in this day and age with all the technology available, a multi million pound passenger jet can just disappear and no one have a clue where it is. Just doesn't seem right to me.

It is weird, but you'd imagine traces will be found over the next day or two.   Now if we're still having the same debate this time next week.....

My guess, albeit an obvious one, is that for whatever reason it has flown way off course & come down in the sea miles away from where its course would have taken it.  It obviously had a full tank and wasn't even halfway through its journey.  But that still doesn't explain the fact it disappeared from Radar where it did, suggesting it ditched there, and yet no trace of wreckage near that point.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2014, 09:41:31 pm »
It is weird, but you'd imagine traces will be found over the next day or two.   Now if we're still having the same debate this time next week.....

My guess, albeit an obvious one, is that for whatever reason it has flown way off course & come down in the sea miles away from where its course would have taken it.  It obviously had a full tank and wasn't even halfway through its journey.  But that still doesn't explain the fact it disappeared from Radar where it did, suggesting it ditched there, and yet no trace of wreckage near that point.

Hopefully for the families of those affected, something gets found soon. Must be terrible for them not knowing whats going on and still having that feint bit of hope that everything may still be ok.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #98 on: March 10, 2014, 09:47:31 pm »
Hopefully for the families of those affected, something gets found soon. Must be terrible for them not knowing whats going on and still having that feint bit of hope that everything may still be ok.

I'd imagine the families probably passed the point of faint hope a couple days ago.  The only faint hope they may have had is that it was hijacked and landed on some airstrip somewhere without being detected by radar, but that's the stuff of James Bond. 

But still for their sake they'd want to find out for definite what exactly happened.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2014, 09:51:33 pm »
I'd imagine the families probably passed the point of faint hope a couple days ago.  The only faint hope they may have had is that it was hijacked and landed on some airstrip somewhere without being detected by radar, but that's the stuff of James Bond. 

But still for their sake they'd want to find out for definite what exactly happened.

I know mate. Find parts of the plane and then start working towards some closure. Like you said, deep down they know what the outcome is. Would be a nightmare to lose a loved one and not be able to bury them.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2014, 10:12:42 pm »
Would it be possible for a plane to crash into the ocean without major damage? I'm not too clued up in terms of physics or aviation, so it's a genuine question.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2014, 10:17:01 pm »
Would it be possible for a plane to crash into the ocean without major damage? I'm not too clued up in terms of physics or aviation, so it's a genuine question.

Not if it crashes.  Falling from that height would result in similar damage as crashing into the ground in terms of the plane breaking up etc.  I rem watching footage of a crash into water some years ago and it didn't even plummet but still broke up on impact.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2014, 10:17:04 pm »
Would it be possible for a plane to crash into the ocean without major damage? I'm not too clued up in terms of physics or aviation, so it's a genuine question.

It is, if it glided its way down from 35,000 ft and the aircrew could keep its horizon below its angle of attack - then it could in theory 'land' on the water and sink below the surface.  You may remember an RAF Nimrod crashing into the sea back in 1995 and remained pretty much in tact - the tail did come off on impact - it would take many, many things going 'right' for that to happen though.

Obviously, if it came in hard or in a spin then it would 99.9% be certain to break up on impact and leave a fairly obvious crash field.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 10:19:22 pm by exiledintheUSA »
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2014, 10:18:39 pm »
It is, if it glided its way down from 35,000 ft the aircrew could keep its horizon below its angle of attack - then it could in theory 'land' on the water and sink below the surface.  You may remember an RAF NImrod crashing into the sea back in 1995 and remianined pretty much in tact - the tail did come off on impact - it would take many, many things going 'right' for that to happen though.

Makes you appreciate the brilliance of the Hudson landing a couple of years back. It's possible but very unlikely.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2014, 10:21:40 pm »
Makes you appreciate the brilliance of the Hudson landing a couple of years back. It's possible but very unlikely.

Certainly does, even more so as Flight 1549 was just about to embark on its climb phase after take-off - very lucky and brilliant airmanship to keep control of the aircraft, keep the nose up and get it around to land anywhere 'soft'.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #105 on: March 10, 2014, 10:31:34 pm »
Would it be possible for a plane to crash into the ocean without major damage? I'm not too clued up in terms of physics or aviation, so it's a genuine question.

Like Exiledintheusa said, you'd need a lot of things to go right.

If the pilots have control and are planning to ditch the plane, if they can glide down and maintain control all the way down to the water, you can suffer less damage and people can survive. So in the case of engine failure, for example, you can make a water ditching but of course it's tremendously difficult to maintain control. US Airways Flight 1549 was a successful ditching but that was in the Hudson River. Ethiopian 961 was an attempted ditching off the Comoros but because the pilot was fighting off hijackers, he couldn't keep the plane level and it banked left and an engine/wing got caught in a reef and the plane broke apart though there were survivors.

On the other hand, if the pilots don't have control (stall, catastrophic structural damage, etc), then the plane would hit the water at very high speed and there will be massive destruction.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #106 on: March 10, 2014, 10:46:21 pm »
Would it be possible for a plane to crash into the ocean without major damage? I'm not too clued up in terms of physics or aviation, so it's a genuine question.
It would have to experience a really neat, clean, nose-dive type entry in the water I would think mate. That's probably unrealistic given the height it was coming down from.

Its all quite bizarre and must be awful for the families.

They're going to discuss it on Newsnight now. An ex USA secret service guy on BBC earlier was interesting but he was swayed toward terrorism.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #108 on: March 11, 2014, 08:02:24 am »
Quote
Malaysian authorities on Tuesday identified one of two men who were traveling with stolen passports on the missing plane as Pouria Nour Mohammad Mehrdad.

He is a 19-year-old Iranian who was trying to migrate to Germany, said Malaysian Inspector General of Police Khalid Abu Bakar.

The Iranian is not likely to be affiliated with any terrorist group, Khalid said, explaining that the man's mother had been expecting him to arrive in Frankfurt and contacted authorities when he didn't show up. scource

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #109 on: March 11, 2014, 08:09:53 am »
It depends whether it's on the ocean bed or continental shelf. It would make a big difference. Had a quick look on Google Maps and it looks like it would be on the continental shelf.

The waters on which the plane disappears is not of great depth.   The Gulf of Thailand is on average about 45m deep with the deepest at 80m.

In comparison, the Air France black box was recovered from a depth of more than 4,000m in S Altlantic which was a great struggle. 

So theoretically, the black box should not be that difficult to recover -- our local expert, a former Director Of Aviation, was at first quite confident on it...


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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #110 on: March 11, 2014, 01:02:59 pm »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26525281

The police in Malaysia are now reporting that no evidence of, or credible links of any sort to, terrorism regarding the stolen passport users. No source, but my CNN app also reported that Interpol are stating that they do not suspect the disappearance to be terrorism related.

It's certainly a strange case. The conspiracy theories will no doubt start to accelerate, with there already being talk of a North Korean hijack.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #111 on: March 11, 2014, 01:16:42 pm »
At this stage a hijak is still a logical explanation. Military radar sightings have confirmed however that the jet changed it's course and was last seen West of Malaysia in the Strait of Malacca, hence why the search has now been widened. One theory suggests the pilots were trying to locate the West Coast of Malaysia in an attempt to fly back to Kuala Lumpur due to computer/electrical failure.

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #112 on: March 11, 2014, 01:17:28 pm »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26525281

The police in Malaysia are now reporting that no evidence of, or credible links of any sort to, terrorism regarding the stolen passport users. No source, but my CNN app also reported that Interpol are stating that they do not suspect the disappearance to be terrorism related.

It's certainly a strange case. The conspiracy theories will no doubt start to accelerate, with there already being talk of a North Korean hijack.
Bloody hell, just been reading that a passenger plane passed through the trajectory of a missile launched by North Korea a few minutes after it had been fired a couple of days ago!
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #113 on: March 11, 2014, 01:20:52 pm »
Also lovely to see Malaysian Airlines attaching a monetary value to each passenger, even at this early stage, by offering around £3000 in compensation to the passengers families.  :wanker

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #114 on: March 11, 2014, 01:21:27 pm »
Bloody hell, just been reading that a passenger plane passed through the trajectory of a missile launched by North Korea a few minutes after it had been fired a couple of days ago!

Where did you read that?

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #115 on: March 11, 2014, 01:28:40 pm »
Where did you read that?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-05/chinese-passenger-plane-passed-north-korean-rocket-trajectory.html

At this stage a hijak is still a logical explanation. Military radar sightings have confirmed however that the jet changed it's course and was last seen West of Malaysia in the Strait of Malacca, hence why the search has now been widened. One theory suggests the pilots were trying to locate the West Coast of Malaysia in an attempt to fly back to Kuala Lumpur due to computer/electrical failure.

Just read that.  That explains the question why they started to look in the Strait of Malacca yesterday/2 days ago.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/11/us-malaysia-airlines-military-idUSBREA2A0KM20140311
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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #116 on: March 11, 2014, 01:40:31 pm »
Everything I've heard seems to suggest a depressurisation of the plane. Would even fit in with how relatives were able to phone for a few hours after the plane was reported missing - it was probably still in the air. Someone put together this theory which sounds plausible:

http://mh370lost.tumblr.com/?og=1

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #117 on: March 11, 2014, 01:55:44 pm »
Everything I've heard seems to suggest a depressurisation of the plane. Would even fit in with how relatives were able to phone for a few hours after the plane was reported missing - it was probably still in the air. Someone put together this theory which sounds plausible:

http://mh370lost.tumblr.com/?og=1

That theory is now totally implausible as military officials have confirmed the airliners last sighting was in the Northern end of the Strait of Malacca, thousands of miles away from the suggested crash site in the article, which hypothesises the flight continued along it's path due to the planes autopilot system.

Offline Terry_Tibbs

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #118 on: March 11, 2014, 02:04:22 pm »
Also lovely to see Malaysian Airlines attaching a monetary value to each passenger, even at this early stage, by offering around £3000 in compensation to the passengers families.  :wanker
It's par for the course during incidents like this to make an initial compensation payment with larger compensation payments following in due course once the cause of the accident has been determined. Air France made initial compensation payments shortly after the AF447 crash.

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Malaysia Airlines loses contact with plane carrying 239 people
« Reply #119 on: March 11, 2014, 02:19:06 pm »
It's par for the course during incidents like this to make an initial compensation payment with larger compensation payments following in due course once the cause of the accident has been determined. Air France made initial compensation payments shortly after the AF447 crash.

The biggest difference with that case though is fuselage etc. was found within a day or two, and within the radius of the last known location, of the crashed Airbus. Looking slimmer and slimmer by the day but this jet and all it's passengers could still be safe and well. I know I would be clinging to that if it were one of my relatives on board. I think they've just offered the compensation a little to prematurely.