Author Topic: How Important is the Truth?  (Read 8395 times)

Offline Conocinico

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2017, 04:09:35 am »
Of course that's true. And it highlights the issue. Corkboy was arguing that the perception of intelligence in a particular race was a fact. I'm saying that the 'fact', which can be established through experimentation, is independent of the perception.

All of those countries abolished slavery of people of African origin at different times. Did their intelligence level change in each country at a different time? all at the same time after the first emancipation or did it wait until the last emancipation?

The answer of course is that the level of intelligence never changed.

Don't blacks have about a 15 point deficit in IQ compared to whites according to experimentation?
This sentence is not provable

Offline vagabond

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2017, 04:35:30 am »
Don't blacks have about a 15 point deficit in IQ compared to whites according to experimentation?

IQ is a very reductive way of measuring intelligence. Besides, I think those experiments (I assume you are referring to the work of Charles Murray?) don't establish anything near as strong a claim as the one that Alan was discrediting. This is a case of correlation more than causation from most critical reviews of that study I think. After all, IQ is also heavily linked to familial income levels. To my mind this suggests that IQ is more on the nurture than nature side, which would mean of course that being black or white wouldn't have nearly as much to do with intelligence as the conditions in which one is raised in.
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2017, 04:42:12 am »
IQ is a very reductive way of measuring intelligence. Besides, I think those experiments (I assume you are referring to the work of Charles Murray?) don't establish anything near as strong a claim as the one that Alan was discrediting. This is a case of correlation more than causation from most critical reviews of that study I think. After all, IQ is also heavily linked to familial income levels. To my mind this suggests that IQ is more on the nurture than nature side, which would mean of course that being black or white wouldn't have nearly as much to do with intelligence as the conditions in which one is raised in.

So the experiment is wrong then and we need a better experiment?
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Offline vagabond

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2017, 05:23:31 am »
So the experiment is wrong then and we need a better experiment?

A better experiment to settle conclusively whether race determines intelligence? I think, firstly, you need a biologically robust model of race. We don't have one.
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2017, 06:55:44 am »
Don't blacks have about a 15 point deficit in IQ compared to whites according to experimentation?

Yes and no. IQ is a very limited measure of "intelligence" and can be trained for. Secondly, there is also a strong correlation between one's social surroundings and IQ. For example, poverty is correlated with a reduction in IQ.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/341/6149/976

So while the observation might hold true and several independent studies have shown similar, the reasons underlying that might have little to do with "race". Secondly, biology has little to do with race since most global populations are incredibly mixed and I'm not sure there's a biological way to determine race.
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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2017, 08:22:11 am »
Don't blacks have about a 15 point deficit in IQ compared to whites according to experimentation?

No. Poor, disadvantaged kids are more likely to do worse in IQ tests than those from more educated backgrounds. Black kids are more likely to be disadvantaged.

Those studies have led to some interesting discoveries, for example, those kids who teachers believe to be cleverer will do better in school. They will be encouraged to speak up and take part in class, while those who were supposedly less intelligent were more often ignored.

In some ways, we make our own truth.
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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2017, 09:06:42 am »
So the experiment is wrong then and we need a better experiment?

Why do we need anything?
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2017, 09:15:49 am »
Err... the intelligence thing was an example. Even if we accept that an IQ test deficit represents a measurable difference in intelligence, it doesn't change the basic point, which is that a test taken under control conditions before and and the same test after the abolition of slavery would give the same result.

Let's steer away from this one before it gets in to areas that don't belong on here.
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Offline Thoros Of Myr

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2017, 09:36:38 am »
Charles Murray has a controversial book, 'The Bell Curve' that makes for some very interesting reading on the intelligence of classes/races.


Offline Thoros Of Myr

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2017, 09:41:29 am »
Also, Sam Harris has a podcast and two episodes in particular with Jordan Peterson where they try to discuss the nature of truth. The first one descends into two intellectuals engaging in a semantics war, but its interesting listening, nonetheless.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2017, 10:03:11 am »
The truth is important. It's not until we get to hear constant lies that we realise how important. I don't have a problem with politicians drifting from the truth. We have to expect that. It's when there is so much disinformation, like we see from Trump, that it becomes a real problem. We can't trust anything he says. Because of his position, we can't ignore him or what he says. And him being the attention seeker he is, he floods the media with nonsense. Because they have to report it. He dilutes the truth until there is nothing left. And then it's a matter of who gets seen or heard the most. Which will be him. So he will become the truth through propaganda. That's just wrong.

It's a bit like playing a football match and the truth is represented by the referee. We know it isn't an exact science, but there are rules. A good referee will make it work and you will accept a mistake here and there. Then you get a shit referee and everything becomes a mess with random punishment.

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Offline SP

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2017, 11:43:52 am »
Charles Murray has a controversial book, 'The Bell Curve' that makes for some very interesting reading on the intelligence of classes/races.

A book that purported to be a scholarly text, but was never submitted for peer review. It was deliberate sensationalism rather than any attempt at science.  The underlying eugenics themes are deeply unpleasant.

Offline Thoros Of Myr

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2017, 11:47:34 am »
A book that purported to be a scholarly text, but was never submitted for peer review. It was deliberate sensationalism rather than any attempt at science.  The underlying eugenics themes are deeply unpleasant.

I agree, wholeheartedly.

I still found it a thought provoking read.

Offline Crimson_Tank

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2017, 12:46:25 am »
I watched a YouTube video and decided that Paul Konchesky looked like a player.
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Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2017, 01:03:31 am »
Truth? Bye bye!
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Offline PaulF

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2017, 07:07:42 pm »
I think until you have something rigourously artificial like maths, nothing is truth, nor can be proven to be true. Wasn't that long ago the sun went round the flat earth. The atom was the smallest thing possible or Newtonian physics was the truth.
In politics it's even worse, quite often we are looking at historical numbers that are massively open to interpretation,context and twisting. Have fire related deaths really gone down despite cuts to the fire service, or have we just stopped counting people who subsequently die in hospital, or have I just made that up. Looking forward is even worse as we have economic predictions, made by reputable people who strongly believe their model. But at best, one will turn out to be the truth.

The op is a fascinating question. As a tory though who reads rawk all the time, I found myslef looking at pro tory comments on facebook with a critical lens and espousing myths when they cropped up in conversation. Anti corbyn comments I found myself adding context. To the point I voted labour. Even though the truth is a rare and precious thing I believe its better to seek it out than to stubbornly hold on to beliefs in the face of opposing evidence.

There are well known psychological studies that say we value goods that we own more than ones we don't. And im sure thats true of political beliefs, on that we will refute evidence that opposes our previously stated views. I suppose it's confirmation bias.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2017, 07:59:34 pm »
I think until you have something rigourously artificial like maths, nothing is truth, nor can be proven to be true. Wasn't that long ago the sun went round the flat earth. The atom was the smallest thing possible or Newtonian physics was the truth.
In politics it's even worse, quite often we are looking at historical numbers that are massively open to interpretation,context and twisting. Have fire related deaths really gone down despite cuts to the fire service, or have we just stopped counting people who subsequently die in hospital, or have I just made that up. Looking forward is even worse as we have economic predictions, made by reputable people who strongly believe their model. But at best, one will turn out to be the truth.

The op is a fascinating question. As a tory though who reads rawk all the time, I found myslef looking at pro tory comments on facebook with a critical lens and espousing myths when they cropped up in conversation. Anti corbyn comments I found myself adding context. To the point I voted labour. Even though the truth is a rare and precious thing I believe its better to seek it out than to stubbornly hold on to beliefs in the face of opposing evidence.

There are well known psychological studies that say we value goods that we own more than ones we don't. And im sure thats true of political beliefs, on that we will refute evidence that opposes our previously stated views. I suppose it's confirmation bias.

The Sun never went round a flat earth. And sub-atomic particles didn't just pop into existence when they were 'discovered'.
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Offline vagabond

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2017, 08:17:56 pm »
Reminds me of a famous quote from Wittgenstein. Somebody said to him, "you can't blame people for thinking that the sun goes round the earth, that's what it looks like it is doing" to which he replied "well, what would it look like if the earth went round the sun?"
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
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Offline PaulF

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2017, 08:28:26 pm »

The Sun never went round a flat earth. And sub-atomic particles didn't just pop into existence when they were 'discovered'.

I was taking historical liberties to try to put across my vuew on how difficult it is to state the truth.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 09:39:01 pm by PaulF »
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline SP

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2017, 08:28:41 pm »
The Sun never went round a flat earth. And sub-atomic particles didn't just pop into existence when they were 'discovered'.

Sub atomic particles pop into existence all the time, even while they were being discovered.  :wave

Offline PaulF

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2017, 09:42:06 pm »


Sorry, couldn't resist. Also it's my first ever post where I've managed to embed a image!
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline Crimson_Tank

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2017, 04:54:51 pm »
The Sun never went round a flat earth. And sub-atomic particles didn't just pop into existence when they were 'discovered'.

Schrodingers sub-atomic particles and all that.
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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2017, 12:53:25 am »
The Sun never went round a flat earth. And sub-atomic particles didn't just pop into existence when they were 'discovered'.

The point about this is that we have to be both forgiving and doubting. Just because we think we now understand things that were mistakenly understood before doesn't make us perfect. If anything, we should learn that on past experience, we are almost certainly wrong about some shit or other. I'm preaching compassion for those who got it wrong before us, and humility for those who are yet to correct us.

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2017, 01:54:46 am »
The point about this is that we have to be both forgiving and doubting. Just because we think we now understand things that were mistakenly understood before doesn't make us perfect. If anything, we should learn that on past experience, we are almost certainly wrong about some shit or other. I'm preaching compassion for those who got it wrong before us, and humility for those who are yet to correct us.
Does this apply to The Daily Mail+The Scum etc.
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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2017, 02:25:25 am »
The point about this is that we have to be both forgiving and doubting. Just because we think we now understand things that were mistakenly understood before doesn't make us perfect. If anything, we should learn that on past experience, we are almost certainly wrong about some shit or other. I'm preaching compassion for those who got it wrong before us, and humility for those who are yet to correct us.
What's the best course of action to take with people who don't acknowledge that they were (or are ever) wrong, and are incapable of humility.
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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2017, 12:47:16 pm »
Sub atomic particles pop into existence all the time, even while they were being discovered.  :wave


And we don't even know what 95% of the Universe is made of. And that's just our Universe. Assuming it exists at all.

Does a Linux box running on a Hypervisor even exist?
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2017, 12:47:54 pm »
The point about this is that we have to be both forgiving and doubting. Just because we think we now understand things that were mistakenly understood before doesn't make us perfect. If anything, we should learn that on past experience, we are almost certainly wrong about some shit or other. I'm preaching compassion for those who got it wrong before us, and humility for those who are yet to correct us.

Forgiving like you are about people with Religious beliefs or leanings?
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2017, 02:49:20 pm »
And we don't even know what 95% of the Universe is made of. And that's just our Universe. Assuming it exists at all.

Does a Linux box running on a Hypervisor even exist?

I knew that would be you Andy.
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Offline PaulF

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2017, 05:54:22 pm »

Does a Linux box running on a Hypervisor even exist?
That surely is a philosophical question about what it means to exist?
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2017, 10:20:29 pm »
That surely is a philosophical question about what it means to exist?
What is truth is also a philosophical question, truth is a man made object after all.

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2017, 10:30:30 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/OdxsuGGrtIU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/OdxsuGGrtIU</a>
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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2017, 11:10:31 pm »
It's a pretty good LP, epsecially Beck's Bolero.

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2017, 11:24:24 pm »
What's the best course of action to take with people who don't acknowledge that they were (or are ever) wrong, and are incapable of humility.
Does this apply to The Daily Mail+The Scum etc.

Forgiving like you are about people with Religious beliefs or leanings?

You have all misunderstood what I said, in at least one case deliberately. You always go with the best available evidence. That evidence may change.

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #73 on: June 24, 2017, 11:59:39 pm »
You have all misunderstood what I said, in at least one case deliberately. You always go with the best available evidence. That evidence may change.
Yes, I would agree with that but this only applys to people who genuinely want to form their opinions based on evidence and fact.
I think the threads wandered off course. the question is, is it alright to turn a blind eye or even support lies if those lies help your political party, politician or cause. take Brexit. I saw the same people argue the same lies over and over for weeks leading up to the referendum.
How we cant stop Turkey from joining the EU. now this is not a matter of opinion, we could stop them every time they tried to join and they were shown the proof. a few days later they would be back again repeating the same rubbish.  now was it right for leave supporters to back this opinion up even though they knew it was a lie. is this really in the best interests for all of us , we should all want to know the truth and the facts to help us form our opinions.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 12:03:48 am by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline SP

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2017, 08:34:44 am »
Much of the original motivation was driven by the Momentum Meme Machine. They misquote, twist stats and just flat out lie. I find most of their output offensive as much of it is deliberate falsehood, and easily disprovable falsehood. It is ends justifying the means in action. How will anything ever change if the truth is the casualty of the drive for being elected. The deeply depressing development is that the tsunami of bullshit has swamped anyone's ability to rebut it. Momentum could make their case without bullshitting, but to them hammering the Tories is more important than the Truth. I fundamentally disagree with that.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2017, 10:33:54 am »
Me too. For personal reasons I find it even more depressing that this stuff comes from the political Left just as much as it does from the Right. The left in this country - or reformist left at least - always prided itself in being based on facts, objective research and reasoning. The Fabian tradition was, I suppose, the quintessence of this, and the Fabian tradition became the Labour Party one too. If you look at magazines like 'Labour organiser', which ran from the early 1920s through to the 1970s, their writers made almost pathetic appeals to the importance of the 'truth' and sincerely believed that there was nothing to be gained from distorting or manufacturing evidence in order to make a political case - that's what the Tories did.

One of my favourite Orwell quotes is the one where he talks about the "ability to face unpleasant facts." That's to say facts which don't support your convictions and which undermine your arguments. If you can't do that then you're in the propaganda business, not the truth business.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline classycarra

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2017, 10:49:14 am »

One of my favourite Orwell quotes is the one where he talks about the "ability to face unpleasant facts." That's to say facts which don't support your convictions and which undermine your arguments. If you can't do that then you're in the propaganda business, not the truth business.

Sorry for a slight sidetrack. I've only read Politics and the English Language, and have been meaning to get a collection of some of Orwell's essays - would you by any chance have a recommendation?

Presumably the mentioned words would feature in an essay in the collection 'Facing Unpleasant Facts: Narrative Essays'? I might try and source this, unless you have another recommendation. Thanks in advance.

Offline Peabee

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2017, 10:58:40 am »
Yet you (we) all do it.  There's about as much objective discussion in this forum as in a UKIP campaign leaflet.  Humans lie and they lie to themselves to justify their lies. 

The discussion on Momentum is driven by people who fundamentally disagree with Momentum, so they ignore their own take on the truth to use a discussion on truth to attack Momentum.   SP has just admitted this, essentially, in a post above. 

Stop lying to yourselves that you are any better than Momentum/Tories/etc.   You have your own agendas and you frame your own interpretations of truth as facts. 

I could be lying though to suit my own agenda(s).


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Offline classycarra

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2017, 11:02:52 am »
I could be lying though to suit my own agenda(s).

Not lying per se, most likely just rationalising to try to make yourself more comfortable.

Unless you have anything to prove that SP perpetuates lies and untruths, which we can objectively agree that Momentum do, then comparisons between SP and Momentum are a false equivalence

Offline kavah

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Re: How Important is the Truth?
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2017, 11:04:07 am »
there was an article in yesterday's Guardian that mentioned that the 2016 word of the year is:

the Oxford Dictionaries Word of the Year 2016 is post-truth – an adjective defined as ‘relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief’.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/word-of-the-year/word-of-the-year-2016