Topic: 10 Cap Split - Max vs Sheer

[tubby]

Who you got?

Max



vs

Sheer

[AndyMuller]

Maximillion got this one. Sheers arrows pissed me off.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Pele, Best and Beckenbauer are top-10 all-time. De Bruyne and Keane are better than Max's midfielders. Defence is probably roughly equal but I've never heard of Bergqvist so I'm going to assume Reina is better. And the arrows are to show the team can merge into a 3-4-3 while counterattacking quite easily.

EDIT: Okay, I looked on Wikipedia. Bergqvist played pre-war and spent most of his career in the Swedish second division while playing ice hockey for half the year. He was voted Hammarby Fotboll club's fifth biggest profile of all time though, so its not all bad.

[AndyMuller]

Pele, Best and Beckenbauer are top-10 all-time. De Bruyne and Keane are better than Max's midfielders. Defence is probably roughly equal but I've never heard of Bergqvist so I'm going to assume Reina is better.

And the arrows are to show the team can merge into a 3-4-3 while counterattacking quite easily.

Pele is the guy that counts goals scored in 5 a side against Brazilian kids in his overall goal tally isn’t he?

[Sheer Magnetism]

Pele is the guy that counts goals scored in 5 a side against Brazilian kids in his overall goal tally isn’t he?

Probably. Wikipedia dials his 1,280 goals to just over 700 professionally, so almost as many as Max's front three put together.

[El Lobo]

Closer than I originally thought actually

Just Max though, not feeling Clichy and Viv Anderson at full back (and Clichy I think technically shouldn’t have been allowed)

[Betty Blue]

Pele is the guy that counts goals scored in 5 a side against Brazilian kids in his overall goal tally isn’t he?

I know you're making a joke. But Pele was the Messi of his era and it's kind of sad how often people try to put him down. He revolutionised what it was to be a footballer. He was the complete footballer in fact, physically a phenom of that era and almost machine-like in how good he was at everything. And I really mean everything. Maybe that makes C. Ronaldo a more apt comparison. He was the best header of the ball, had the best shot, blistering pace, sublime close control, an incredible mentality, and perhaps most importantly of all he worked for it. These are my pa's words who saw him and Eusebio live (as in in a stadium) by the way. So not just things I've read. It's interesting that he also agreed that Garrincha was more spectacular and probably even more talented, but he was also hindered by physical disabilities and couldn't quite reach Pele's level for that reason alone.

It's kind of fascinating how much adoration Maradona receives in comparison. Despite him being an extremely flawed human being. I love him as well by the way, but he was a cheat on the field (the hand of God) and of course banned for drug abuse. I think that makes him more human though and somehow more likeable. Like I say above Pele was very machine-like. My 'pa always said Pele wasn't a player you loved to watch, but one you knew was the best player on the field at all times and could win a match alone.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Closer than I originally thought actually

Just Max though, not feeling Clichy and Viv Anderson at full back (and Clichy I think technically shouldn’t have been allowed)

Wikipedia lists Clichy as retired from international football.

[Max_powers]

Probably. Wikipedia dials his 1,280 goals to just over 700 professionally, so almost as many as Max's front three put together.

I have goals all over the pitch. My CB has 200+goals. Ballack was 1 in 2 goal scorer in his prime. Salah is a goal scoring machine. Kempes won two consecutive picchci trophies and golden boot and golden ball in World Cup. My fullback has scored in European cup finals.

I also have a mean defence with no weakness. The weak links on team are obvious

[AndyMuller]

Your defence is boss Maxi.

[Sheer Magnetism]

I have goals all over the pitch. My CB has 200+goals. Ballack was 1 in 2 goal scorer in his prime. Salah is a goal scoring machine. Kempes won two consecutive picchci trophies and golden boot and golden ball in World Cup. My fullback has scored in European cup finals.

I also have a mean defence with no weakness. The weak links on team are obvious

I'd say the Z-list goalkeeper you have is a pretty huge weakness. You could have picked literally any other 30-cap goalkeeper in history and they'd be an upgrade. You also have no defensive midfielders which means De Bruyne's going to run rampage in that part of the pitch. All in all it's not a bad team for the most part, but you're missing a couple of key players and you can't match the star power on the other side.

[El Lobo]

Wikipedia lists Clichy as retired from international football.

Nah it doesn’t, and he’s not, but Tubbs has the final call which is fair enough

[Hazell]

To be fair, I don't think Clichy will be getting any more caps for France.

[tubby]

Yeah I discussed with Sheer and was happy to let it go.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Nah it doesn’t, and he’s not, but Tubbs has the final call which is fair enough

Yes it does. At the bottom: "Players listed as active are players who haven't retired from international football."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_France_international_footballers

[Samie]

Arguing over Clichy is an all time low for the rawk draft community.

[El Lobo]

True. Being made to keep Clichy is punishment enough

[Lastrador]

I remember the day that Gaël Clichy announced his retirement from international football quite vividly. It was a real tearjerker, I’ll tell you that. Memories of those epic Euro qualification games against Georgia and Bielorrusia kept flooding the mind, and who can forget his performance in a 0-0 against Belgium, where he kept a young Nacer Chadli on his pocket for the whole match? I stick up for that pick Sheer, well done.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Clichy was in the Premier League team of the year at a time when Cole and Evra were at their peak. If that's the weak link in a team with Pele, Beckenbauer, Best, De Bruyne and Costacurta I'll take it.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Clichy French is a Vliche or Vichy French is a cliche - one of those two. 

[El Lobo]

Had Max as the favourite for the whole thing. Very surprising this!

[Hazell]

Had Max as the favourite for the whole thing. Very surprising this!

The Clichy factor.

[Lastrador]

Had Max as the favourite for the whole thing. Very surprising this!

Lobo's kiss of death.

[El Lobo]

Lobo's kiss of death.

He was losing before that, I take no responsibility

[Crosby Nick]

Biggest opening game shock since France v Senegal?

[Betty Blue]

Lobo's kiss of death.

Well, I bet my house on him coasting to the final yesterday 

To be fair, I hadn't looked closely at Sheer's team. It certainly has some glaring weaknesses, but I can see how Pele-Best-Beckenbauer would drive voters to go for them. Those 3 are comfortably in the top 3 in their position all time. Max has the better set up and no obvious weak points, but he doesn't have the same level of game changers. Far from over yet though, voting is still very much on a knife edge.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Well, I bet my house on him coasting to the final yesterday 

To be fair, I hadn't looked closely at Sheer's team. It certainly has some glaring weaknesses, but I can see how Pele-Best-Beckenbauer would drive voters to go for them. Those 3 are comfortably in the top 3 in their position all time. Max has the better set up and no obvious weak points, but he doesn't have the same level of game changers. Far from over yet though, voting is still very much on a knife edge.

Come on. No obvious weak points? The better set up? That team has no defensive midfielders, a dodgy goalie, two short central defenders up against a top-level six-foot striker, Figo playing on his weak side and Salah playing without an advanced full back in support - he has good players but their placement is suspect. Cubillas, Pele and De Bruyne would be knocking them in from 20 yards out all day long.

[El Lobo]

Late drama!

[Trendisnotdestiny]

The winner gets a well rested, balanced, powerhouse in DeFacto ---   much todo about nothing or destiny's child?

[Betty Blue]

Come on. No obvious weak points? The better set up? That team has no defensive midfielders, a dodgy goalie, two short central defenders up against a top-level six-foot striker, Figo playing on his weak side and Salah playing without an advanced full back in support - he has good players but their placement is suspect. Cubillas, Pele and De Bruyne would be knocking them in from 20 yards out all day long.

I'm with you on the keeper. I hate how voting has almost completely descended into ignoring keepers. Falcao was a complete midfielder though and Ballack a box-to-box midfielder who made his presence felt all over the pitch. Not every team needs a pure DM to be successful. I also noted Figo being on his wrong side and that's definitely something against Max. His team is very compact and I feel could grind out results far better than your side. The glaring weakness is Clichy and there's no escaping that. He was a decent player in his prime, but not anywhere near the level needed in an all-time draft IMO. Salah would tear him apart. Pity it's not Figo on that side though, because that would be even more of a bloodbath.

[Lastrador]

Well, I bet my house on him coasting to the final yesterday 

To be fair, I hadn't looked closely at Sheer's team. It certainly has some glaring weaknesses, but I can see how Pele-Best-Beckenbauer would drive voters to go for them. Those 3 are comfortably in the top 3 in their position all time. Max has the better set up and no obvious weak points, but he doesn't have the same level of game changers. Far from over yet though, voting is still very much on a knife edge.

I have to disagree there. Max team is great but I think he really lacks a more defensive ball-winner in the middle. Falcao and Ballack were both great and rugged footballers, but they both were far more offensive than defensive players. Falcao could play the deep-lying playmaker role, but he always played with a ball winner next to him (usually Toninho Cerezo), and I don't think Ballack fits that role. Savicevic, as brilliant as he was, would give little support there. So while Max team is great I do think that is an area that could be exploited. 

[Max_powers]

Come on. No obvious weak points? The better set up? That team has no defensive midfielders, a dodgy goalie, two short central defenders up against a top-level six-foot striker, Figo playing on his weak side and Salah playing without an advanced full back in support - he has good players but their placement is suspect. Cubillas, Pele and De Bruyne would be knocking them in from 20 yards out all day long.

I will have you know that Bergqvist had 30 caps for a good Sweden team (that beat the Nazi germans). Represented the nation in Ice Hockey as a defender 55 times so he must have been tough as nails. Was offered a role on Sweden's handball Olympics team => Throwing 99. He has a Swedish football lifetime achievement award. Competed as an archer in the Paralympics later in his life after he was severely injured in a car accident. Possibly the greatest athlete of all time. What can Pele do to phase a man of that character.

Santamaria and Koeman both were excellent in the air and can easily deal with aerial threat of long balls lumped to Pele.

Figo played everywhere along line in his career and never looked any worse for it playing from the left.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

My take is that when things are close - like in this match, little things make a big difference.   Here are some of them:

                                                Sheer                                               Max

Superstar factor                        X (3)                                                 (2)

Balance (D/MF/F)                                                                               X

Individuals Matchups                X (4)                                                 X (4)
                             - (Pele, Best, Keane, Beckenbauer)       - (Salah, Kennedy, Santamaria, Bergomi)        Ties (DeBruyne/Savicevic, Koeman/Costacurta)

Goalkeeper                              X (Reina)


Formation Variation                X 4-3-3 base                                   4-3-3 base
                                                or 5-2-3 wingbacks                       4-2-4 attacking transition


Greatest Weakness                 Left Back                                          Goalkeeper


Greatest Strength            Offensive Productivity                          Good to Great Players in the right positions.




**** This should go to pens imo.    I voted for Sheer early, because I buy the great players argument, but I can see how both deserve to get to the next round.

[Lastrador]

One thing I have noticed, Beckenbauer really doesn't translate well to drafts. In my opinion, he's the most complete footballer in the history of the game, but for some reason, he's primarily thought of as a defender, although he impacted the game on all areas of the pitch almost equally. Whoever drafts him really is in a pickle, because you can't really put him on a setup that does him justice. You can put him as a sweeper in a back three, but that would make him look like more of a defender (and most people hate back threes over here anyway), or you can do what Sheer did, and put him in midfield, but he gets kind of stuck in there and it's hard to picture how he would impact games the same way he did on real life. Maybe is the rigid way we imagine formations and players on drafts, and Sheer usually does a great job with his arrows in trying to show how fluid they can be, but it still can be difficult to picture the impact someone like Beckenbauer could have on a game. 

[Trendisnotdestiny]

One thing I have noticed, Beckenbauer really doesn't translate well to drafts though. In my opinion, he's the most complete footballer in the history of the game, but for some reason, he's primarily thought of as a defender, although he impacted the game on both ends almost equally. Whoever drafts him really is in a pickle, because you can't really put him on a setup that does him justice. You can put him as a sweeper in a back three, but that would make him look like more of a defender (and most people hate back threes over here anyway), or you can do what Sheer did, and put him in midfield, but he gets kind of lost in there and it's hard to picture how he would impact games the same way he did on real life.

Good point.

Although, I do like Sheer's creativity here --- putting Beckenbauer (partnered with a ball winning, holder like Keane) at old fashioned stopper offers his side some flexibility in that he can drop to the always familiar sweeper role defensively as Blind and Costacurta split nicely into LCB/RCB's and Beckenbauer becomes the big kahuna in the back reprising his sweeping role with a bit more depth.   

And going forward, Sheer's defense takes a different shape, snapping into a more resilient ball moving machine moving forward with Franz being able to influence the game with his passing in the middle and final thirds.   

Actually, for the chronic drafting crowd, this move should be seen as  a savvy move, imo.   

[Sheer Magnetism]

I will have you know that Bergqvist had 30 caps for a good Sweden team (that beat the Nazi germans). Represented the nation in Ice Hockey as a defender 55 times so he must have been tough as nails. Was offered a role on Sweden's handball Olympics team => Throwing 99. He has a Swedish football lifetime achievement award. Competed as an archer in the Paralympics later in his life after he was severely injured in a car accident. Possibly the greatest athlete of all time. What can Pele do to phase a man of that character.

Santamaria and Koeman both were excellent in the air and can easily deal with aerial threat of long balls lumped to Pele.

Figo played everywhere along line in his career and never looked any worse for it playing from the left.

He's a pre-war goalkeeper who played half his career in the Swedish second division and wasn't even selected for their world cup squad. These are facts, and a career playing in other sports isn't a substitute for ability.

Koeman was never strong in the air by the way, which is why he was generally paired with physically imposing partners like Angel Nadal or Ivan Nielsen, who were, and probably part of the reason none of his teams had strong defensive records, save PSV for the first couple of years. Pele is arguably the greatest centre forward of all time, headers were a key part of his game and De Bruyne would have the space to put pinpoint passes on to his head with ease. Your forwards are up against a back line of Beckenbauer, Costacurta and Blind - all unquestionably world class.

[Sheer Magnetism]

One thing I have noticed, Beckenbauer really doesn't translate well to drafts. In my opinion, he's the most complete footballer in the history of the game, but for some reason, he's primarily thought of as a defender, although he impacted the game on all areas of the pitch almost equally. Whoever drafts him really is in a pickle, because you can't really put him on a setup that does him justice. You can put him as a sweeper in a back three, but that would make him look like more of a defender (and most people hate back threes over here anyway), or you can do what Sheer did, and put him in midfield, but he gets kind of stuck in there and it's hard to picture how he would impact games the same way he did on real life. Maybe is the rigid way we imagine formations and players on drafts, and Sheer usually does a great job with his arrows in trying to show how fluid they can be, but it still can be difficult to picture the impact someone like Beckenbauer could have on a game. 

Although, I do like Sheer's creativity here --- putting Beckenbauer (partnered with a ball winning, holder like Keane) at old fashioned stopper offers his side some flexibility in that he can drop to the always familiar sweeper role defensively as Blind and Costacurta split nicely into LCB/RCB's and Beckenbauer becomes the big kahuna in the back reprising his sweeping role with a bit more depth.   

And going forward, Sheer's defense takes a different shape, snapping into a more resilient ball moving machine moving forward with Franz being able to influence the game with his passing in the middle and final thirds.   

Actually, for the chronic drafting crowd, this move should be seen as  a savvy move, imo.

Cheers guys, that pretty much was what I was thinking. I originally had Beckenbauer down as part of the back two, but teams were less likely to play with attacking full backs in the 70's so I wanted some extra defensive fortification to cover their runs. It's been more common to see that kind of player in the defensive midfield spot in recent years, like Rijkaard at Milan or Fabinho for us right now, or as part of a back five. Plus you get to utilise Beckenbauer's long passing and dribbling ability further up the field. He really was like a combination of 2014 Gerrard and Hendo, but with top-level defensive anticipation added on, an amazing player.

[Max_powers]

Oh well. You win some and you lose some. Good luck to Sheer in QF.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Cheers Max, it went right down to the wire.

[AndyMuller]

Good match up that. Well played Sheer!