Author Topic: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?  (Read 56570 times)

Offline ByrdmanLFC

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #320 on: October 10, 2022, 08:30:53 am »
Which of the Arsenal or Spurs players are on their way to being world class?

Didn't read the previous quote, but off the top of my head: Martinelli, Odegaard, Saka, Saliba, (Jesus?).  Spurs are overrated and do not scare me, still believe we will outdo them if we can find some form.

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #321 on: October 10, 2022, 08:32:04 am »
I agree.

FSG, with a lot of indirect help from Klopp, has turned us into a £500m annual income club, that’s at the very top table.


A big chunk of which is contingent on being in the Champions League. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money. What’s the plan if we don’t qualify this year and the next I wonder?
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #322 on: October 10, 2022, 08:34:10 am »
Didn't read the previous quote, but off the top of my head: Martinelli, Odegaard, Saka, Saliba, (Jesus?).  Spurs are overrated and do not scare me, still believe we will outdo them if we can find some form.

Right. So we are saying the likes of Jota, Konate, Trent, Diaz cannot compete with that? Or are those players you mention ever getting to Van Dijk, Salah levels?

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #323 on: October 10, 2022, 08:35:20 am »
A big chunk of which is contingent on being in the Champions League. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money. What’s the plan if we don’t qualify this year and the next I wonder?

Then you invest, like Spurs, Arsenal have done. Lets not give the club an out if it doesnt get CL. I mean, they would love having an out, but they shouldnt get one.

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #324 on: October 10, 2022, 08:40:29 am »
Then you invest, like Spurs, Arsenal have done. Lets not give the club an out if it doesnt get CL. I mean, they would love having an out, but they shouldnt get one.

I quite agree. The point is they should have been investing to keep us in top. I’m not bloody having the “we renewed contracts BS either” all top clubs do this. I bet de Bruyne has had a few pay rises. Harry Kane sure has.
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #325 on: October 10, 2022, 08:41:39 am »
We not make the CL places for a long time.
This feels a bit like 2009/2010
far too many old players but we dont have the resources to compete

We wont get as bad as under Hodgson but i can see many 5-6th place finishes

Offline PIPA23

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #326 on: October 10, 2022, 08:45:21 am »
we have to reinvent ourselves as we are now a team that concedes first to many times...

we have to close the chapter for the previous team. What could have been is not important anymore.

2-3 incomings are necessary in age 22-26 to bolster the midfield and right back

We need results now.

The players who signed a new long-term contract have all failed us so far this season.

Not sure if it is because they want to stay fit for the world cup, but it is unacceptable if so.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #327 on: October 10, 2022, 08:47:36 am »
We not make the CL places for a long time.
This feels a bit like 2009/2010
far too many old players but we dont have the resources to compete

We wont get as bad as under Hodgson but i can see many 5-6th place finishes

We do have the resources to compete. We have huge revenue coming in, where has all that money gone?

Offline scouse neapolitan

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #328 on: October 10, 2022, 08:50:20 am »
All we can do is support the team unreservedly. We know what the owners need to do and we know that stuff is bound to be happening and said behind closed doors but all we can do is support the team through this . Our Boss doesn’t deserve to see the stands emptying 20 minutes from the end as frustrating as it’s been watching us this season. I still reckon we’re only a decent win away from getting our confidence back. The rub of the green and a lucky penalty. Something like that.
Injuries and form are going to make it difficult,  but I’m glad in a way that the next up is City at our place. It  could be the season-changer that we need. And if it isn’t and we get hammered then let’s not shit on the team that have brought us so much pleasure over the last couple of years. Stand by them and the Boss right to the end and just hope that the owners start giving Klopp the backing he deserves. 

Offline RedBec1993

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #329 on: October 10, 2022, 08:51:16 am »
We have resources to complete, one of the biggest clubs in the world. Record revenues,season on season. We should not be lingering in the place we are in the table. Finishing outside the top 4 is nowhere near good enough. Klopp has been performing miracles with the money he’s been given and always expected to sell in order to spend! The man’s a genius. Now let’s see what FSG are made of in January/next summer.  They have done a lot for the club but how can they oversee this and be happy right now? How can Klopp be? Well he’s quite clearly not.

Offline The_Nomad

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #330 on: October 10, 2022, 08:51:26 am »

- Preseason. Players have gone on record as saying it was one of the most intense they've done, and we've lost various players to injury (which is undoubtedly in conjunction with the above).


I’ve seen a few people say this but cannot find ANY quotes by any players about the pre season. So is this really true or an urban myth that grew out of nothing?
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Offline keyop

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #331 on: October 10, 2022, 08:58:40 am »
Right… and there is a difference between seamless transition and what we’re going to have to do. Real Madrid had Casemiro/Kroos/Modric being the best in the world for years and already before those 3 are done have Tchouameni/Camavinga/Valverde waiting to take over. It’s absolutely possible to get as close as you can to seamless and we didn’t even try. If we’re as well run as claimed an attempt at seamless transition is exactly what should have been happening so we didn’t get in to this position where so much needs doing all at once.
It's the easiest thing in the world to look at a successful club that's done it well, and then say we should've simply done that. But how have Utd managed their many transitions since 2013/14, or Arsenal after their success, or Barca, or Juve, or numerous other top clubs that have had a good spell and then struggled to build the next great team, or had some burnout due to a combination of injuries and several long seasons of intense play and pressure.

Yes, of course there's things we could've done better, but it's nowhere near as simple as many are making out, and more teams get it wrong than right (spending far more than we do).
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #332 on: October 10, 2022, 08:59:58 am »
We haven't really changed anything, so how can it be a transition season? If we was bedding a few new players in i think the majority of us would be understanding of this shit show.
This is it completely.
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #333 on: October 10, 2022, 09:01:00 am »
We not make the CL places for a long time.
This feels a bit like 2009/2010
far too many old players but we dont have the resources to compete

We wont get as bad as under Hodgson but i can see many 5-6th place finishes
Top 5 gets champions league from next season thankfully.
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #334 on: October 10, 2022, 09:01:19 am »
Which of the Arsenal or Spurs players are on their way to being world class?

Martinelli Saka Saliba Jesus.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #335 on: October 10, 2022, 09:02:54 am »
Martinelli Saka Saliba Jesus.

So not many more than ours and still I dont think any of them become as good as Salah or Van Dijk were, which is apparently now the bar to compete if that poster is claiming.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #336 on: October 10, 2022, 09:09:34 am »
So not many more than ours and still I dont think any of them become as good as Salah or Van Dijk were, which is apparently now the bar to compete if that poster is claiming.

Saliba can become nearly as good as VVD, he’s 21 and already has it all. I don’t think I’ll ever see a can as good as VVD in his prime he was pretty much perfect but Salina has many of the same gifts and still
very young.

Likewise Saka and Matirnelli can become as good as Salah, why not? Didn’t you see Saka yesterday he’s 21 and already has a couple good seasons behind him, he has 4 assists and 3 goals  in 9 games this season he can be that level IMO or close.

Arsenal have a good future because they’ve backed their manager time and time again, while we had a far better manager expected to be doing miracles, if you had told me Arsenal would finish above us in a season we have no major injuries 2-3 seasons ago I would have laughed at you, it’s such a shame we’ve managed to almost throw away our chance of creating a dynasty by being tight.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #337 on: October 10, 2022, 09:14:21 am »
Say we buy 3 midfielders in the 20-25 age range over the next 2 windows, they’re full of running and fit Klopp’s system perfectly. Do we think that would be enough to sort this, or realistically, does more need to be done?
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #338 on: October 10, 2022, 09:15:57 am »
Say we buy 3 midfielders in the 20-25 age range over the next 2 windows, they’re full of running and fit the Klopp’s system perfectly. Do we think that would be enough to sort this, or realistically, does more need to be done?

We would have a starting 11 consisting of those three, Diaz, Jota, Nunez, Trent, Konate and a hardly past it Alisson. I mean, provided the manager has not lost his ability and those signings are not shit, why does it not sort this side out?

Offline Adam_LFC

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #339 on: October 10, 2022, 09:16:42 am »
Say we buy 3 midfielders in the 20-25 age range over the next 2 windows, they’re full of running and fit Klopp’s system perfectly. Do we think that would be enough to sort this, or realistically, does more need to be done?

It's amazing what the right couple of signings can do to a side. It lifts everyone else collectively.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #340 on: October 10, 2022, 09:20:55 am »
We would have a starting 11 consisting of those three, Diaz, Jota, Nunez, Trent, Konate and a hardly past it Alisson. I mean, provided the manager has not lost his ability and those signings are not shit, why does it not sort this side out?

Exactly, it shouldn’t take anymore than that. We need to try and ride this out until January, when FSG need to back Klopp and let him bring in the 1st of at least 3 midfielders. There’s no reason that we can’t be challenging next season, if Klopp’s given the funds and the recruitment team get it right.
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Offline James...

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #341 on: October 10, 2022, 09:22:06 am »
Have the RM players you are mentioning either? Anymore than Diaz/Nunez/Konate?

You missed the point mate. The point is they don’t have too right away because they still had the worlds best ahead of and around them as they develop and establish themselves. It’s forward planning. They could be brought in and out if needed. Whilst Diaz is trying to establish himself whilst having to be our go to attacker because Sadio was goosed as a LW. Konate is an example though I would say is a good example of how it should be done. Albeit should have been signed a year earlier but in theory, Konate is a good example. Signed before Virg and Matip fall off a cliff and rotated in and out.

Now though the new players we bring in whilst our other new players are still establishing themselves. They aren’t Jota being signed whilst he is surrounded by 6/7/8 established in their pomp world class players. They will be coming in to a team full of either players on downward trajectories or players like Diaz who are still developing and trying to establish themselves as the elite. We don’t any longer have a settle core you can point to and say no issues there, he’s an in his prime worlds best footballer.


As an aside though yes, Valverde certainly is one of the best in the world.

Offline James...

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #342 on: October 10, 2022, 09:22:55 am »
Which of the Arsenal or Spurs players are on their way to being world class?

Why do I care about Arsenal or Tottenham?

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #343 on: October 10, 2022, 09:24:04 am »
Right. So we are saying the likes of Jota, Konate, Trent, Diaz cannot compete with that? Or are those players you mention ever getting to Van Dijk, Salah levels?

Virgil and Mo’s current level… yes.

But again… why do we care about Arsenal and Tottenham? We’re trying to win a title against Man City.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #344 on: October 10, 2022, 09:29:36 am »
It's the easiest thing in the world to look at a successful club that's done it well, and then say we should've simply done that. But how have Utd managed their many transitions since 2013/14, or Arsenal after their success, or Barca, or Juve, or numerous other top clubs that have had a good spell and then struggled to build the next great team, or had some burnout due to a combination of injuries and several long seasons of intense play and pressure.

Yes, of course there's things we could've done better, but it's nowhere near as simple as many are making out, and more teams get it wrong than right (spending far more than we do).

No offence mate but it didn’t take a genius to say ‘hey guys lets sign younger players to develop whilst the current lot are in their prime’

A significant portion of the fanbase were saying it every summer. Told to shut up. And now … our squad is old and all falling out their peak at the same time and we have no younger players to transition to.

It could be seen coming a mile off and loads of people said it. You want to argue it isn’t easy to get the transition right thrn yeah, i’ll happily accept that. What I won’t accept it trying to paint it as if the concept of transition was impossible for people who’s literal job it is to forward plan the squad.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #345 on: October 10, 2022, 09:31:51 am »
So not many more than ours and still I dont think any of them become as good as Salah or Van Dijk were, which is apparently now the bar to compete if that poster is claiming.

Where have I said Arsenal’s players are the bar?

But you want to make them the bar the fine. They’ve won 8 of 9 and are 14 points ahead of us.

Edit:apologies for the multiple posts i’m not surr how to put it all in one
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 09:33:38 am by James... »

Offline LifelongRed, Sussex

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #346 on: October 10, 2022, 10:04:53 am »
Mate Klopp was the obvious choice you’d had to be a fool not to go for him when he was available.

Exactly.

The stars aligned, Klopp missed football just 4 months into a planned year out.

It would’ve madness not to approach him.

Offline LifelongRed, Sussex

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #347 on: October 10, 2022, 10:12:04 am »
We have resources to complete, one of the biggest clubs in the world. Record revenues,season on season. We should not be lingering in the place we are in the table. Finishing outside the top 4 is nowhere near good enough. Klopp has been performing miracles with the money he’s been given and always expected to sell in order to spend! The man’s a genius. Now let’s see what FSG are made of in January/next summer.  They have done a lot for the club but how can they oversee this and be happy right now? How can Klopp be? Well he’s quite clearly not.

Well said.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #348 on: October 10, 2022, 10:17:48 am »
No offence mate but it didn’t take a genius to say ‘hey guys lets sign younger players to develop whilst the current lot are in their prime’

A significant portion of the fanbase were saying it every summer. Told to shut up. And now … our squad is old and all falling out their peak at the same time and we have no younger players to transition to.

It could be seen coming a mile off and loads of people said it. You want to argue it isn’t easy to get the transition right thrn yeah, i’ll happily accept that. What I won’t accept it trying to paint it as if the concept of transition was impossible for people who’s literal job it is to forward plan the squad.

In fairness this isn't true.

Alisson is 30 but keepers tend to stay at their peak for much longer than outfield players. I'd be surprised if he needed replacing for 5 or 6 years.
Trent is still young and potentially hasn't even peaked yet. Robbo is 28 and in his prime years (in theory) and we have Tsimikas who is 26.
VVD and Matip are both 31, but we'd expect to get another couple of good years out of both of them given their athleticism. And we have Gomez and Konate who are both in their early to mid-20s coming through.

Up top we've worked to line up replacements for Bobby/Mo/Mane in Jota/Diaz/Nunez, all of whom are 25 or under and so shouldn't peak for another couple of years (forwards usually do around 27/28).

The only real issue in terms of age profile is in midfield but even then, only 3 of our 8 available midfielders are over 30. This isn't some team we've hung onto until they can barely kick a football. Milner is the only player who is genuinely in the "old" category for a footballer, Hendo and Thiago are 31/32 and so we should be aiming to line up their replacements now. Fabinho is 28 (imminently 29), Ox is 29, Keita is 27. But the issue with these three has been more in relation to quality of late than their age profile. If they had all been playing to the best of their potential, then the likes of Keita and Ox could have taken more minutes while we brought in top young CMs to replace Thiago and Henderson. Then Jones and Elliot are obviously younger.

The issue is that the midfield is bloated because we've not moved players on. The likes of Camavinga and Valverde can get decent minutes at Madrid, whereas we have 8 first team midfielders so signing one or two more this summer would have created a ridiculous surplus. Whether that's because: a) there's no interest in Ox and Keita; b) FSG are tight and won't sell them at a lower value to move them on and free up the space; or c) Klopp is hugely loyal to his players and doesn't want to let them go, fuck knows. Could well be a combination of all three.

But it's not as easy as saying "all our players are old and we've not lined up replacements". We could start an XI next week with Alisson, Trent, VVD, Konate, Tsimikas, Elliot, Henderson, Fabinho, Jota, Nunez and Diaz. Average age 26, which isn't an old XI. As I've posted elsewhere in the last 12-24 hours, there weren't many clamouring for another new forward or defender this summer - we seemed to have a pretty decent balance in both areas with decent numbers and younger players coming through. Midfield is the critical issue, and I really don't think another couple of midfielders solves the problems we've had this season which have impacted the entire squad through fatigue and loss of form. It is obviously crucial however to bring in a couple of midfielders imminently because that's the area of our team which needs addressing the most for next season and beyond.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 10:21:49 am by JerseyKloppite »

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #349 on: October 10, 2022, 10:38:58 am »
No offence mate but it didn’t take a genius to say ‘hey guys lets sign younger players to develop whilst the current lot are in their prime’

A significant portion of the fanbase were saying it every summer. Told to shut up. And now … our squad is old and all falling out their peak at the same time and we have no younger players to transition to.

It could be seen coming a mile off and loads of people said it. You want to argue it isn’t easy to get the transition right thrn yeah, i’ll happily accept that. What I won’t accept it trying to paint it as if the concept of transition was impossible for people who’s literal job it is to forward plan the squad.

Not to mention we consistently pat ourselves on the back and like to tell anyone who will listen how we're one of the smartest/best-run clubs in the game. Comparing us to Man Utd and Barcelona (actually renowned for being dreadfully run but who have more money to throw at the problem) or Arsenal (who are currently spending their 6th consecutive season out of the CL) is not exactly a favourable comparison.

Of course it is difficult, but it did not need to be as difficult as we have made it. Either we're not as smart as we think we are, or we have massively dropped a bollock.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #350 on: October 10, 2022, 10:43:41 am »
You missed the point mate. The point is they don’t have too right away because they still had the worlds best ahead of and around them as they develop and establish themselves.

So the players that nearly won the quadruple last year are not suitable players for the newbies to develop around? I dont get it. Why is building around Kroos etc an example of building around the world's best, but building around Salah/Virgil not?

I am not going to argue it was a good idea to forgo the opportunity to acquire some of the world's best talent off the back of our league and CL wins, I dearly wanted to. I just don't understand how you point at the RM example of how to do introduce new talent, when we seem to be doing largely the same thing?

Offline TheMan

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #351 on: October 10, 2022, 10:49:03 am »
The Salah contract is a huge issue. We had to do it but based on form of last 12 months I think he is in permanent decline. Previously we had the knack for selling stars at the right time like Coutinho and Torres. If we get north of 60 million for Salah this summer we should take it (I would take 40 - 50), that would free up a massive amount of cash in wages alone and let's face it we need serious investment in the next few windows. The rebuild hasn't even started and we have lots of work to do, we have let the key players age without finding adequate replacements in most positions and we know FSG won't dip into their own pockets. Just like the Coutinho sale revitalised so too can the Salah sale. The question is though will there be any takers and will they pay his massive wage (especially if he comes off a poor season). I could even see him being loaned out if his form falls off a cliff completely with maybe 50% of his wages being paid and a small loan fee but it's becoming clear that he may not be part of the rebuild so we can't and shouldn't justify the massive wage outlay.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #352 on: October 10, 2022, 11:55:20 am »
Plenty to worry about. From a failed desperate loan to Salah no longer banging them in for fun.

However, we have won everything under Klopp bar Europa. So the theory could be is play a little bit shite, finish top 6 or 7 and then win that elusive and cherished trophy next season.
- all in my opinion of course -

Offline Penfold78

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #353 on: October 10, 2022, 12:50:25 pm »
Before I wade in with specifics here’s a curious introduction. So far under Klopp’s reign I’ve enjoyed our moderately successful seasons much more than our really successful ones. My favourite phase so far is the autumn and winter of 2018/19 when we thrashed Roma and Man City with devastating attacking play. I thought we were actually labouring a lot last season even though we clocked up a phenomenal amount of wins. I also thought Alison’s header to gain us CL qualification was better than the moment we won the league. I’d actually become pretty concerned about some underlying cracks when Watford overran us 3-0 during our title winning season.

Told you it was curious. Go figure.

On the specifics. And I warn you, the first one is proper full-on captain hindsight.

- Salah should have been sold but only if we’d had someone better lined up to sign the contract;
- Nunez’s purchase is not the sign of a CL or Prem winning club, but signing Carvahlo is (he was in huge demand), which shows me pretty clearly that it’s the money that is the blocker, not our pulling power;
- We’ve listened to our own hype for too long so we’ve been flabbergasted by dips in form from some of our stars down the spine of the team, including TAA out wide too. Because we were absorbed in our own hype we didn’t prepare alternative tactics or develop squad players who could mimic the role of the person they cover for. A good example is CM, right back too. An exception to this is LB where Tsimikas replaces Robertson really well most of the time;
- The best barometer of our current plight is Milner. If you check the Milner thread you’ll see I’m one of his biggest fanboys. But it’s time to acknowledge we’ve got serious issues if we are playing him with his aging legs so often and in all kinds of roles.
- We’ve been lucky that other than state-owned Man City the other Top 6 clubs have spent a few years in really mixed form. This has added to believing our own hype (obviously a lot of the hype is completely justified - we have mostly been awesome) and it’s come as a hard lesson to see the other rivals now clicking into form.
- The Andy Carrol in the room and the most fundamental reason for our woes is the absurd contradiction between Klopp’s genius tactics and the age of the squad. Klopp is all about emotion, energy, geggenpressing, heavy metal. You can’t have that with so many 30 somethings who’ve won it all. They don’t have the legs and the extra bit of drive that comes from wanting to prove people wrong. This lot, they’ve won the fudging lot (as the song goes) so they’ve got nothing to prove. They still love the club, worship Klopp but nothing can replicate that added spark you get from wanting your first big trophy. See Diaz as the exception that proves this theory.

Worried, yes. Serious issues, yes. Sad? Not really. We’ve been incredible. Someday soon, next season or the one after, we’ll be epic again.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 12:52:54 pm by Penfold78 »

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #354 on: October 10, 2022, 12:56:09 pm »
I am not saying its a transition season. Next season will have to be the transition season. This is the ‘probably-one-season-too-far’ season.

Exactly. Not seeing much transition really unless the plan is that Elliot and Carvalho will be the long-term replacements for Milner and Henderson whichI doubt is the case. . All the downside with none of the upside.
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Offline keyop

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #355 on: October 10, 2022, 02:02:34 pm »
In fairness this isn't true.

Alisson is 30 but keepers tend to stay at their peak for much longer than outfield players. I'd be surprised if he needed replacing for 5 or 6 years.
Trent is still young and potentially hasn't even peaked yet. Robbo is 28 and in his prime years (in theory) and we have Tsimikas who is 26.
VVD and Matip are both 31, but we'd expect to get another couple of good years out of both of them given their athleticism. And we have Gomez and Konate who are both in their early to mid-20s coming through.

Up top we've worked to line up replacements for Bobby/Mo/Mane in Jota/Diaz/Nunez, all of whom are 25 or under and so shouldn't peak for another couple of years (forwards usually do around 27/28).

The only real issue in terms of age profile is in midfield but even then, only 3 of our 8 available midfielders are over 30. This isn't some team we've hung onto until they can barely kick a football. Milner is the only player who is genuinely in the "old" category for a footballer, Hendo and Thiago are 31/32 and so we should be aiming to line up their replacements now. Fabinho is 28 (imminently 29), Ox is 29, Keita is 27. But the issue with these three has been more in relation to quality of late than their age profile. If they had all been playing to the best of their potential, then the likes of Keita and Ox could have taken more minutes while we brought in top young CMs to replace Thiago and Henderson. Then Jones and Elliot are obviously younger.

The issue is that the midfield is bloated because we've not moved players on. The likes of Camavinga and Valverde can get decent minutes at Madrid, whereas we have 8 first team midfielders so signing one or two more this summer would have created a ridiculous surplus. Whether that's because: a) there's no interest in Ox and Keita; b) FSG are tight and won't sell them at a lower value to move them on and free up the space; or c) Klopp is hugely loyal to his players and doesn't want to let them go, fuck knows. Could well be a combination of all three.

But it's not as easy as saying "all our players are old and we've not lined up replacements". We could start an XI next week with Alisson, Trent, VVD, Konate, Tsimikas, Elliot, Henderson, Fabinho, Jota, Nunez and Diaz. Average age 26, which isn't an old XI. As I've posted elsewhere in the last 12-24 hours, there weren't many clamouring for another new forward or defender this summer - we seemed to have a pretty decent balance in both areas with decent numbers and younger players coming through. Midfield is the critical issue, and I really don't think another couple of midfielders solves the problems we've had this season which have impacted the entire squad through fatigue and loss of form. It is obviously crucial however to bring in a couple of midfielders imminently because that's the area of our team which needs addressing the most for next season and beyond.
Great summary, and when you see it all laid out with the ages and numbers in each position, it does somewhat dilute this notion of an ageing team, players being 'past it', and the need for a complete rebuild. As you say, we've actually done a good job in succession planning for the defence and attack. It's also clear there was succession planning for the midfield as far back as 4 years ago - I think most would agree Jurgen's plan was for a midfield 3 from Fab, Gini, Ox and Keita, allowing Henderson/Milner to gradually reduce game time, whilst we also bought younger players such as Jones through the ranks to get minutes.

Ox/Keita's injuries and form, plus Gini wanting to leave were big flies in the ointment that Jurgen probably wasn't expecting - that's 3 of his likely preferred 4 'future' midfielders either crocked or moving on. Gini was a few years older of course, but I think he was still in the long-term plans considering he averaged 35 league games a season and was clearly one of Jurgen's favourites (who we've missed as much as anyone). Could we have moved some players on sooner? Of course. Is it easy when they're injured, out of form, and probably happy to see out their contracts here? Probably not.

I don't actually think Thiago was part of the midfield plan, even though Jurgen's obviously been a long-term admirer. I think he was an opportunistic signing because he was (a) available at a decent price and willing to join us, and (b) we had doubts around the fitness of Ox/Keita.

It must be incredibly hard to transition from one winning team to the next without disruption or loss of rhythm - ensuring that the replacement player is at the right level to start taking over at the right time, with as seamless a handover as possible - assuming of course the incoming and outgoing players both stay fit over the transition period. It's a fine balancing act - if the experienced player gets injured before the understudy is ready, the younger player gets thrown into a position and into games for which they might not be prepared. If the understudy gets injured, then the older player gets less rest and increases their injury risk. It's basically rebuilding a plane whilst it's still in the air, and a high wire act for any club - especially one with such a high intensity and demanding system as ours. I have no doubt our relatively high injury rate over the last few years has had a huge impact on this transition planning, managing minutes, and Jurgen being able chose the players he wants when he needs them. After our exertions of the last 4 years (especially last season), there's also been a clear domino effect of injuries, as these require more minutes for players that should be resting, who then get injuries themselves, and so on.

Ultimately, it's not worked out as well as planned, but I think rumours of our demise are greatly exaggerated. Although it's been a disappointing start (and the table never lies), the core of this team has a few more years left in the tank yet - even if some of the other players are clearly showing signs of decline (or in the case of Ox/Keita, not playing enough and likely to be gone next summer).
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 02:23:56 pm by keyop »
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #356 on: October 10, 2022, 02:11:32 pm »
Which of the Arsenal or Spurs players are on their way to being world class?
Martinelli and Saka from Arsenal, Son, Kane from Spurs.
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #357 on: October 10, 2022, 02:13:26 pm »
Martinelli and Saka from Arsenal, Son, Kane from Spurs.

Son and Kane are both 30.

Kane is world class - Son is pretty damn close - but they are not going to get better. In fact, Son has had a very rough start this season.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #358 on: October 10, 2022, 02:24:22 pm »
Sadio Mane - 111 EPL goals, 38 assists, exceptional pace and timing of runs terrorising defences thus creating space for his forward partners.
His form in Germany tells me that he is experiencing the same thing our players are.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #359 on: October 10, 2022, 02:28:26 pm »
Still think they were counting on the Super League a bit too much. That would've been guaranteed money year after year, easier to plan.

Maybe they've realised they can't compete with Man City, United, Newcastle (soon enough)
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