Author Topic: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?  (Read 56559 times)

Offline ianburns252

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #80 on: June 1, 2022, 12:35:53 pm »
We don't need to beat the "big teams" - we just need to hit par with them (either 2 draws or, actually better, home wins for both teams.

There are 3 points available for every game no matter the team. If we beat everyone below 5th that is 30 wins or 90 points from those games alone.

There are then 8 games where if we draw we finish on 98, or win home/lose away finish on 102.

Results against the big 4 don't win leagues, it is spanking the rest of the league that does it.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #81 on: June 1, 2022, 12:40:51 pm »
Quite some thread this one.

Unfortunately, posters like yourself are just constantly going to do the sportswashers work for them and ignore the monstrous elephant in the room. We finished on 92 points. We dropped 12 points in 'big games' (City, Chelsea, Spurs) whilst dropping no points in other 'big games' (United, Everton, Arsenal) and beating the likes of Atletico, Villareal, Porto, Inter Milan, Chelsea twice in cup finals, City in a semi, Arsenal in a semi. Its genuinely laughable that people are trying to push a theme of 'didn't do it in big games' considering the season we've just had, but again mate you do what you enjoy :D
Absolutely. People are treating it like a game of FIFA where they literally win every single game. In real life it doesn’t work out that way. Even the biggest cheats in the history of the game drop points. We are posting ridiculous points totals lately and it’s only because of the sportswashers cheating , and some dodgy officiating, that we haven’t won more titles.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #82 on: June 1, 2022, 01:13:43 pm »
Quite some thread this one.

Unfortunately, posters like yourself are just constantly going to do the sportswashers work for them and ignore the monstrous elephant in the room. We finished on 92 points. We dropped 12 points in 'big games' (City, Chelsea, Spurs) whilst dropping no points in other 'big games' (United, Everton, Arsenal) and beating the likes of Atletico, Villareal, Porto, Inter Milan, Chelsea twice in cup finals, City in a semi, Arsenal in a semi. Its genuinely laughable that people are trying to push a theme of 'didn't do it in big games' considering the season we've just had, but again mate you do what you enjoy :D

No doubt we’ve still had a fantastic season in the league, which would win us it in almost every season pre-Guardiola. That’s great.

However, we can only use what’s in front of us as a barometer. If we wanted to win the league or be the best team in the league, if we want to improve, then this is one of the few areas you could say we need to. I was referring to ‘big games’ as being the cup finals and games against the other top 4, which I’d say were our most difficult.

Arsenal, Everton, Man U etc are obviously big but they’re all shite. And let’s face it, our run to the CL final was a relative doddle.

Edit: can also say this cost us in 18/19, where we lose to City away, fail to beat them at home etc. The opposite in 19/20. Those head to heads are big when you know both teams (especially City) are generally going to batter the bottom 14.
« Last Edit: June 1, 2022, 01:26:07 pm by bornandbRED »

Offline Dundalis

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #83 on: June 1, 2022, 01:16:24 pm »
We don't need to beat the "big teams" - we just need to hit par with them (either 2 draws or, actually better, home wins for both teams.

There are 3 points available for every game no matter the team. If we beat everyone below 5th that is 30 wins or 90 points from those games alone.

There are then 8 games where if we draw we finish on 98, or win home/lose away finish on 102.

Results against the big 4 don't win leagues, it is spanking the rest of the league that does it.
Except a team like City do it by winning against everyone. We aren't competing against a normal top team in a normal era like when Ferguson was winning leagues every year. Don't really think the above applies when you have a team like City in the league, unless they get destroyed by injuries to benefit another team to take advantage, but their squad is so ridiculous they can still destroy the league when their best players are out. We can't.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #84 on: June 1, 2022, 01:17:50 pm »
What is this “not scoring in three finals” thing? Where has it come from?
What people seem to completely overlook is that we are talking elite level football here, with the finest of margins being the difference between agony or ecstasy.

Opposition spin doctors say, "aha! you played three finals and scored no goals."

Facts are, though, our opposition were the European Cup holders, world club champions and also the then 13 times European Cup winners. Between them, they scored one goal, against the run of play. We walked off with two trophies out of the three against those clubs.

Where has that little soundbites come from? Opposition spin doctors only looking at part of the picture. It's then been picked up by some of our own because it feeds into our anxiety.
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #85 on: June 1, 2022, 01:19:23 pm »
We don't need to beat the "big teams" - we just need to hit par with them (either 2 draws or, actually better, home wins for both teams.

There are 3 points available for every game no matter the team. If we beat everyone below 5th that is 30 wins or 90 points from those games alone.

There are then 8 games where if we draw we finish on 98, or win home/lose away finish on 102.

Results against the big 4 don't win leagues, it is spanking the rest of the league that does it.

And yet converting one of those draws against City, Chelsea or Spurs into a win means we’d have won the league.

Offline ianburns252

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #86 on: June 1, 2022, 01:26:17 pm »
You're right, it would have.

My point is that our focus needs to be on beating the bottom 15 before we worry too much about the top.

Under Rafa a big deal was made every year out of how we won the "Top 4 league" - which I think Spurs seem to be doing best in these days.

It wasn't the draws with the top teams that meant we didn't win the league, it was dodgy draws to Brentford and Brighton when our players we coming back to fitness after long injury layoffs

Offline stewy17

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #87 on: June 1, 2022, 02:09:29 pm »
I'm sorry I'm just not having it that we got 92 points and anyone is complaining that we failed or fucked the league. If you get 92 points and don't win the league it's very fucking unlucky. I'd guess it's the second-highest-ever runner-up tally, after us when we got 97 points. We can look at any of the games where we dropped points as "the reason" we didn't win it but it's hard to justify that position at all when we ultimately get such a big points total.

As for the finals they're pretty much always a flip of a coin when big teams play each other and we had three finals against European heavyweights, won two of them and conceded one goal over all three.

Whether we won 1-0, on pens, by a coin toss or 10-0, we still won. A lot of the narrative out of Madrid since they won has been along the lines of 'finals are for winning, not for playing' etc. and it's true.

Over the course of this season we've won big games, drawn big games and we've lost big games. Over the course of a 63 game season we've lost 4 games and one of them was a dead rubber second leg game. If you infer problems from stats like that then you're probably less so a 'glass half full kind of person' and more so a 'glass yourself in the face kind of person'.

Liverpool Football Club are a marvel, we'll be back next season at at least the same level and with a good chance we'll improve. How exciting for us and how terrifying for everyone else.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #88 on: June 1, 2022, 02:15:16 pm »
You're right, it would have.

My point is that our focus needs to be on beating the bottom 15 before we worry too much about the top.

Under Rafa a big deal was made every year out of how we won the "Top 4 league" - which I think Spurs seem to be doing best in these days.

It wasn't the draws with the top teams that meant we didn't win the league, it was dodgy draws to Brentford and Brighton when our players we coming back to fitness after long injury layoffs

If the officials had done their jobs in the Spurs game, or in the City/Everton game, would you still be saying we fucked it against Brentford and Brighton? Because thats what cost us the league, not pretty standard dropped points.
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #89 on: June 1, 2022, 02:31:10 pm »
Honestly we are living through a golden age of the club. The fact that we have not put more trophies in the cabinet is solely down to other clubs cheating & not being punished for it. In the future these victories for the sports washers may have asterisks after them, but it doesn’t matter as they will still have robbed them from us. Personally I’m just enjoying the incredible football, characters & human beings that we have at Anfield. There’s nothing much we can do about the corruption other than continue to highlight it as it filters down from the very highest level. It must be incredibly frustrating for the owners who bought into the league on the promise of fair play only to be cheated by those running the game. I’m looking forward to the next iteration of our team. There are always other players that can be moulded into something special, especially if you have exceptional scouting & management.

Onwards & upwards!
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Offline ianburns252

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #90 on: June 1, 2022, 02:32:55 pm »
If the officials had done their jobs in the Spurs game, or in the City/Everton game, would you still be saying we fucked it against Brentford and Brighton? Because thats what cost us the league, not pretty standard dropped points.

I didn't say we fucked it.

As with the Alternative Prem Table on this forum I am treating those as expected wins and so acknowledging the mitigating circumstances around the draws (players coming back from long lay offs etc) whilst also making the point that the people complaining about not winning the "Top 4 Table" need to realise that if we take the 90 points off the bottom 15 (which we damn near do) then we are doing everything we can to put ourselves in the best possible position to win the league and only the fact that City are equally able to do this, plus have an oil state behind them, stops us.

I think I didn't articulate my point as well as I should have but I am very much on your side of the discussion.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #91 on: June 1, 2022, 04:06:00 pm »
"Poor planning". We've renewed Jurgen Klopp's contract and just about won everything there was to win - literally as close as anyone's ever gotten to doing that. I'll bow out of this thread and maybe log off the site for a while.

Would rather Al bowed out or logged off the site for a while to be honest Roy.
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Offline beardsleyismessimk1

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #92 on: June 1, 2022, 04:41:44 pm »
I'm excited about the changes that will take place. And the new personnel that will replace whoever doesn't want to be here anymore.

Can't wait for for Mane and salah to leave. We aren't a circus. We are a football club that is interested in players wanting to play football for this great institution.  If players think there are better places to ply their trade then great. What they forget is that as talented as they are it's only because of the staff and JK they have excelled.  Mane was at Southampton and teams weren't even looking at him. Salah was released by Chelsea and he was playing in arguably the 4th best league in Europe.  Yes they had the tools but its how Klopp utilised them that allowed them to become the players they are. Out of that system they will have moments of individual brilliance but they won't have the career they had preceding it. Moreover they haven't got that much longer to go.
It's not like we are going to go full rafa benetez and bring in players for the sake of it. We have a structure and we have an identity and we bring in players who fit the mould. If salah and Mane leave. They will be quickly forgotten by the next superstar in the making.
On top of that we have a defence that rarely conceeds and will be in place for some time yet. If we aren't letting goals in we have every chance of winning games with talented forward players
« Last Edit: June 1, 2022, 05:00:06 pm by beardsleyismessimk1 »
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Offline thaddeus

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #93 on: June 1, 2022, 04:50:10 pm »
I'm excited about the changes that will take place. And the new personnel that will replace whoever doesn't want to be here anymore.

Can't wait for for Mane and salah to leave. We aren't a circus. We are a football club that is interested in players wanting to play football for this great institution.  If players think there are better places to ply their trade then great. What they forget is that as talented as they are it's only because of the staff and JK they have excelled.  Mane was at Southampton and teams weren't even looking at him. Salah was released by Chelsea and he was playing in arguably the 4th best league in Europe.  Yes they had the tools buts how Klopp utilised them that allowed them to become the players they are. Out of that system they will individual moments of brilliance but they won't have the carrier they had preceding it. Moreover they haven't got that much longer to go.
It's not like we are going to go full rafa benetez and bring in players for the sake of it. We have a structure and we have an identity and we bring in players who fit the mould. If salah and Mane leave. They will be quickly forgotten by the next superstar in the making.
On top of that we have a defence that rarely conceeds and will be in place for some time yet. If we aren't letting goals in we have every chance of winning games with talented forward players
Didn't Salah only last week commit to being a Liverpool player next season?

At a club our size there'll always be a media circus.  Man U have had it for about three years with Pogba and he's a donkey.  Even relatively small clubs like Man City are getting it with Sterling.  It's unfair to blame the players when they're mostly being very professional (compared to, for example, Coutinho or Sterling when they wanted out).

I agree with your point about the club making those big names rather than the other way around.  Dortmund are a great example of constantly losing their "superstar" and within five games nobody even remembering them as the next wave are as good or better.
« Last Edit: June 1, 2022, 04:52:33 pm by thaddeus »

Offline beardsleyismessimk1

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #94 on: June 1, 2022, 05:06:10 pm »
Didn't Salah only last week commit to being a Liverpool player next season?

At a club our size there'll always be a media circus.  Man U have had it for about three years with Pogba and he's a donkey.  Even relatively small clubs like Man City are getting it with Sterling.  It's unfair to blame the players when they're mostly being very professional (compared to, for example, Coutinho or Sterling when they wanted out).

I agree with your point about the club making those big names rather than the other way around.  Dortmund are a great example of constantly losing their "superstar" and within five games nobody even remembering them as the next wave are as good or better.

Yeah he did. But that doesn't stop me from wanting to see the back of him. Oh look at me , I'm staying. Doing you all a huge favour. Like fuck. All he is doing is waiting for getting the biggest pay day of his life. Which I do not have anything against.  However I would bench him and play someone I knew was going to be here beyond next season.  Not wait until Salah decides he is leaving and then begin to make the changes. How fool Hardy would that be ? We laugh at United and the lack of longevity playing a 37 year old and building a team around him. We it's just as laughable doing the same thing with a player with a year left on his contract who you know isn't going to resign. I'd rather he go now.
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #95 on: June 1, 2022, 05:21:53 pm »
What seems to be forgotten since it was so long ago but the press was briefed multiple times that all the last round of contract renewals were done so they lined up to expire for when Klopp would be leaving on purpose. It would allow Klopp to transition the squad himself and not leave it to his successor who would otherwise be setup to fail because of having to be the bad guy to move on from those players. So the plan that is being followed and executed as advertised is a sign of no or bad planning? Seriously?

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #96 on: June 1, 2022, 06:38:57 pm »
The issue for me is the poor planning. We signed Salah, Mane and Firmino in different seasons but have ended up with all three of them having their contract expire at the same time. Add in potentially losing Naby and Ox as attacking mids on frees and we have three options. Spend hundreds of millions replacing like for like, hope the likes of Carvalho and Elliott perform at an incredible level or watch the squad depth drop.

As for Mane I think he was pretty average in the first half of the season but the signing of Diaz lit a fire under his arse. It was the improvement in the squad depth that for me nearly gave us an incredible season.

Ideally I think we would have tied up a couple of our forwards and could have concentrated our efforts on improving the midfield area especially with Hendo and Thiago being a similar age and Milner being used far too often.

Having to replace 4,5 or 6 players risks reducing the amount per player we can spend, which may also reduce the quality of the player we can bring in.
Sorry mate, you’re a joke. I tried responding in with some logic which you ignored and you continue to parrot your ridiculous agenda. You’ve done nothing but slag off the owners and other decisions made by the club when we’ve had arguably the most successful period of our history - certainly relative to the competition.

I actually can’t believe you’re still doing this at the exact time when outright lies are being spread against our fans again.

Your debating style would be better served arguing against the lies of French ministers. Rather than continuing your agenda against an organisation that Klopp seems more than happy with.

I’m not sure I can be arsed with this whole thing any more.  We are involved in our most serious battle in over 30 years and I see the same posters pushing their same tired agendas, seemingly oblivious to what’s actually happening in the real world.

Offline G Richards

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #97 on: June 1, 2022, 07:01:12 pm »

1. Despite having won everything under klopp , we have only won one final in 90 minutes against a poor spurs in a match where Allison was MoM.
2. Our midfield in both finals we lost against Madrid lacked creativity . Is this an area we need to strengthen given age profiles , inconsistency issues , potential ceilings in terms of ability and injury proneness ?
3. Diaz and Jota have polar opposite strengths and areas they need to work on . With Mane possibly leaving and Salah’s recent form do we again need to look at seriously strengthening here ?
4. Are we likely to spend the amounts we need to ? Elite number 10s and 9s don’t come cheaply . The next 4 seasons whilst klopp is with us and United are so far off challenging present a potentially golden opportunity to at least equal the 20 league titles . With city getting 2 excellent strikers we need to keep our level since January going and hit the ground running .

Your thoughts welcome .

Good post, and definitely food for thought with all of it. My initial reaction, then I will go back and read what others are saying:

1. It's a small concern, not a major concern. Winning a final in 90 mins is very difficult, especially given the quality of the opponent you invariably face. It would be a bigger problem if we weren't making it to finals, or getting to the sharp end of tournaments. With better finishing and Courtois not having a worldy, we would have won the CL. As for Chelsea and Man City in the other finals, they are stubborn, stubborn, very well organized, with their own elite qualities too. It's the rarified air of finals.

2. We definitely need to strengthen the midfield. We know we liked Tchouameni, and his age, athleticism, and ability to be a 6 or an 8 seemed to appeal. It got away from us as the price went up and up, as Real Madrid found themselves with more margin to spare after not landing Mbappe. We might sign someone of a similar sort of profile, or we might go for an opportunistic signing with someone like Gavi, given Barcelona's financial problems. That might also give us the option to switch to 4-2-3-1 which arguably might be one way the team evolves. It will be interesting to see how we do it, but I am convinced we will sign at least one midfielder this summer to strengthen that department.

3. Definitely we need to strengthen up front. Assuming Mane is leaving, the one I would go for would be Nunez. His knee issues are exaggerated, and that looks to be behind him now anyway. I like his size, as we look a bit small up front. His pace and desire seem good, and he certainly knows where the net is. He will improve further with our excellent coaching.

A front three of Diaz-Nunez-Salah would be excellent, with Jota, Firmino and Carvalho all having a say too. If Mo intends to leave on a Bosman next summer, maybe we will bring another Bosman in to replace him, in Serge Gnabry. There are loads of permutations for how that one might pan out, but the data points can build up as we don't have to solve it now.

4. The money we are earning from our success, plus the revenue the club is generating, point in a good direction of having money to spend. We can't compete with the artificially inflated clubs, but we can make our own moves. I think another great Liverpool team is starting to take shape, and I can't wait to see it emerge. On the face of it we should be able to land number 20, and more besides, in the coming years, but overcoming Man City, given their unchecked financial dominance, will be difficult. Even with that disadvantage, we are right in there, and the margin between us is wafer thin.
« Last Edit: June 1, 2022, 07:05:54 pm by G Richards »

Offline Romford_Red

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #98 on: June 1, 2022, 07:49:06 pm »
Cheating City Bastards weren’t responsible for us failing to beat Chelsea or Spurs, they weren’t responsible for us drawing with Brentford & Brighton. Cheats weren’t responsible for us not scoring in 3 finals. Wether teams should need 90+ points to win the the league is irrelevant. It’s the reality of what it takes to win now. There’s no point in saying “we should have won it with these points levels” we’re still losing. Stop looking to City and look at ourselves. We’ve lost the league on 2 occasions by a point in seasons where we drew too many games. Look at the tables and you’ll see the tale. We need to be cut throat and take games to teams. We were toothless in 3 finals. I don’t care about 9 chances in a game “should be enough to win” the reality is we lost.

Mental.

Any season in which you post 90+ points and don't win the league, you don't lose, someone else wins it.
'Costly draws'? Everyone drops points somewhere.

I hope the sort of attitude about 'failing' is not indicative of how our fans views are turning. That sort of self entitlement and regarding what are astounding levels of play as 'normal' where everything else is 'not good enough' or even 'a disgrace' can fuck right off.

It's this sort of shit that has me on the verge of walking away from football.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #99 on: June 1, 2022, 07:57:42 pm »
Mental.

Any season in which you post 90+ points and don't win the league, you don't lose, someone else wins it.
'Costly draws'? Everyone drops points somewhere.

I hope the sort of attitude about 'failing' is not indicative of how our fans views are turning. That sort of self entitlement and regarding what are astounding levels of play as 'normal' where everything else is 'not good enough' or even 'a disgrace' can fuck right off.

It's this sort of shit that has me on the verge of walking away from football.

Funnily enough the year that poster’s avatar team  won the league they had 90 points and were 9 points ahead of second place United.

A great team but even they managed 12 draws.

And then lost the Cup Final 1-0 to Wimbledon.

https://www.lfchistory.net/SeasonArchive/Game/1638

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #100 on: June 1, 2022, 08:18:36 pm »
Sorry mate, you’re a joke. I tried responding in with some logic which you ignored and you continue to parrot your ridiculous agenda. You’ve done nothing but slag off the owners and other decisions made by the club when we’ve had arguably the most successful period of our history - certainly relative to the competition.

I actually can’t believe you’re still doing this at the exact time when outright lies are being spread against our fans again.

Your debating style would be better served arguing against the lies of French ministers. Rather than continuing your agenda against an organisation that Klopp seems more than happy with.

I’m not sure I can be arsed with this whole thing any more.  We are involved in our most serious battle in over 30 years and I see the same posters pushing their same tired agendas, seemingly oblivious to what’s actually happening in the real world.

That is totally uncalled-for.

All I have said is that it was poor planning to negotiate contracts that see Salah, Mane, Firmino, Keita and Oxlade-Chamberlain become free agents at the same time.

To somehow equate that to what happened in Paris and then condemn someone who has spent decades campaigning against the injustice of Hillsborough really is scraping the bottom of the barrel.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #101 on: June 1, 2022, 09:10:59 pm »
That is totally uncalled-for.

Quite
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Pistolero

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #102 on: June 1, 2022, 09:14:36 pm »
Sorry mate, you’re a joke. I tried responding in with some logic which you ignored and you continue to parrot your ridiculous agenda. You’ve done nothing but slag off the owners and other decisions made by the club when we’ve had arguably the most successful period of our history - certainly relative to the competition.

I actually can’t believe you’re still doing this at the exact time when outright lies are being spread against our fans again.

Your debating style would be better served arguing against the lies of French ministers. Rather than continuing your agenda against an organisation that Klopp seems more than happy with.

I’m not sure I can be arsed with this whole thing any more.  We are involved in our most serious battle in over 30 years and I see the same posters pushing their same tired agendas, seemingly oblivious to what’s actually happening in the real world.

behave yerself lad...
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Offline ianburns252

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #103 on: June 1, 2022, 09:24:20 pm »
behave yerself lad...

He's right though.

As much as Al and ai disagree, we are always civil and have both learnt things from each other so this has no prejudice or bias to him, but in this instance he needs to take a breathe.


Offline averagestudent

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #104 on: June 1, 2022, 10:44:09 pm »
Except a team like City do it by winning against everyone. We aren't competing against a normal top team in a normal era like when Ferguson was winning leagues every year. Don't really think the above applies when you have a team like City in the league, unless they get destroyed by injuries to benefit another team to take advantage, but their squad is so ridiculous they can still destroy the league when their best players are out. We can't.

They didn't beat us this season, they managed to beat a depleted squad the season before that and the season we won the league, we let them win as we'd already won the damn thing whilst ahead on a shed load of points. I don't think City with all their might would be able to steam roll the league like we did when we won. We're a thorn in their side and they genuinely hate playing us.

The oil rich countries will eventually get bored of their little toys. We are by far a better run club.


Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #105 on: June 1, 2022, 11:38:28 pm »
The product of a disappointed mind following events in the last 8 days


In Jurgen we trust, we were the best team in Paris and we will refresh in a way that others don't, it's not about spending big bucks. We made the best 2 full backs in the world for £8m.
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #106 on: June 1, 2022, 11:47:25 pm »
That makes it even more bizarre for me though, we had a total xG of 7 and scored 0 when it mattered the most.
Yes it seems weird but it's quite probably just happenstance. Clustering is a normal part of averaging but when we're close up to it it can always seem meaningful when it probably isn't.

If this were to continue in Final after Final, only then could we say that it's definitley an indication of something meaningful
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #107 on: June 2, 2022, 12:04:56 am »
That makes it even more bizarre for me though, we had a total xG of 7 and scored 0 when it mattered the most.

We are always likely to be at the wrong end of stats in finals though. When we are at our best we are a high energy pressing team. The first half of the FA Cup semi-final would be a great example of that.

That doesn't really suit playing in finals, though. Finals are played at the end of a season when energy levels are lower. The other key thing is how much nervous energy is burnt up by the build up to finals. That isn't really conducive to pressing or counter pressing.

Finals are usually won by the most obdurate team. The team that refuses to give in and not the team that tries to win the game.
 
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #108 on: June 2, 2022, 12:26:39 am »
Mental.

Any season in which you post 90+ points and don't win the league, you don't lose, someone else wins it.
'Costly draws'? Everyone drops points somewhere.

I hope the sort of attitude about 'failing' is not indicative of how our fans views are turning. That sort of self entitlement and regarding what are astounding levels of play as 'normal' where everything else is 'not good enough' or even 'a disgrace' can fuck right off.

It's this sort of shit that has me on the verge of walking away from football.

This is a wider observation rather than a direct criticism of the post you are replying to there, but I feel we're at the point these days where far too many people have forgotten that football is played by flesh and blood human beings. It's not a video game on a computer screen with players made out of pixels, yet some seem to think our players should perform as though they are.

Abu Dhabi are as near as you can get to a computer generated side simply because they have unlimited resources. If a player gets injured or has lost form, they have another identikit player to fill his place. If they lose someone crucial, they simply buy another two to replace him. They are human too, hence the fact they don't win all their games or all the trophies, but they are as close as you can get to a team of pixels on a screen.

The fact we are even competing with this Frankenstein's monster, season after season, is simply staggering, but I think too many have lost sight of this fact.
« Last Edit: June 2, 2022, 12:28:45 am by Son of Spion »
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Offline Djozer

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #109 on: June 2, 2022, 01:45:45 am »
The fact we are even competing with this Frankenstein's monster, season after season, is simply staggering, but I think too many have lost sight of this fact.

Yes, a thousand times yes.

Online Johnny Aldridge

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #110 on: June 2, 2022, 02:29:28 am »
And yet converting one of those draws against City, Chelsea or Spurs into a win means we’d have won the league.

This!

To win anything you need to beat the best and preferably those you’re in the race with. Beating City, Chelsea or Spurs and getting 3 points isn’t the same as 3 points at Norwich, it bings a gap between you and those you’re in the fight with.
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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #111 on: June 2, 2022, 06:17:20 am »
We don't need to beat the "big teams" - we just need to hit par with them (either 2 draws or, actually better, home wins for both teams.

There are 3 points available for every game no matter the team. If we beat everyone below 5th that is 30 wins or 90 points from those games alone.

There are then 8 games where if we draw we finish on 98, or win home/lose away finish on 102.

Results against the big 4 don't win leagues, it is spanking the rest of the league that does it.
I hope Klopp and the players don't think like this. To beat city we need to win every game and take losing any points as an insult. Nearly after any draw or loss people say "city will drop points to". They've just won 4/5 titles.

Online WillG.LFC

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #112 on: June 2, 2022, 08:44:26 am »
If we are the best run football operation, then how come we ended up with Salah, Mane and Bobby all with one year left and none of them signing a new deal, Roy ?

Origi is leaving on a free this season and Ox and Keita have one year left as well.

Over the next 12 months, we could feasibly see 6 attacking players leave on a free.

There are what, 25 players in a squad. Contracts are usually what 4 years? So there should always be 4 or 5 players coming into last years of their contracts. Players also can't be forced to sign new ones even if we wanted to. Did we try to extend some of these players? Yes. Did they want to extend, no.

Acting like this is poor planning is a really shallow view point, it's far more nuanced then that.

Offline Red Cactii

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #113 on: June 2, 2022, 08:47:28 am »
Again Al its not a criticism, but it just seems to be one of a number of things about the club (and well, football really), that you struggle to understand (or just ignore so you can get on with your favourite pastime).

Its got naff all to do with poor planning, its just how football contracts work. You cant stagger them so you're never in a position where someone has two years left on their contract and its genuinely laughable that you seem to think we could. The added aspect is that players more and more are running their contracts down to a point where they either leave on a free (and get a mega deal elsewhere) or get what they want. Players age differently, perform differently, and want different things. We've seen it with Mbappe this summer, we've seen it with Messi recently, we're seeing it with numerous players this and next summer. You've got some of the best players in the world in their position with contracts expiring this or next summer, not just our three. It could be that Liverpool, Bayern, Real, Barca (well probably true with them), Inter, Chelsea, Man City, Napoli, Atletico etc all don't know what they're doing with respect to contract extensions. Or it could be that more and more, players realise they'll get more money as a free agent as are more likely to run their contracts down, and there's very little a club can do once they've decided that.

Spot on, plus we've just come out of a pandemic where the club was understandably hesistant large contract upgrades whilst the long-term impacts of Covid were unknown.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #114 on: June 2, 2022, 08:55:22 am »
We don't need to beat the "big teams" - we just need to hit par with them (either 2 draws or, actually better, home wins for both teams.

There are 3 points available for every game no matter the team. If we beat everyone below 5th that is 30 wins or 90 points from those games alone.

There are then 8 games where if we draw we finish on 98, or win home/lose away finish on 102.

Results against the big 4 don't win leagues, it is spanking the rest of the league that does it.

You do if you want to win anything. We wouldn't have won the domestic cups if we didn't ultimately beat Chelsea and City in the FA semi.

The thing is, it's the games against the best sides we come up against that tell us where we can improve. We've played a lot of games against City, Chelsea, Spurs and then Real Madrid this season and only had the one win outside of the penalty shootouts.

The other factor is those teams also have the best managers. Tuchel, Ancelotti, Conte and Guardiola are pretty much the best in the business along after our own manager.  They know how to make it difficult for us. We got quite fortunate in that we avoided all these teams on route to the CL final.

We know coming up against United we were just a lot better than them and they weren't well coached. We knew with Arsenal they had good quality but we could go out and beat them and their inexperienced manager. Same further down the league. When you're up against the best teams and managers, you can't afford weaknesses and that's where any you do have our exposed.

Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #115 on: June 2, 2022, 09:48:50 am »
players come and go...

we need to refresh and we have the best staff and manager around to find the right players.

Nobody thought Salah will hit these numbers with us and I believe there is plenty of players who will do the same or close to that with us in future...

it is about the system.

Now get Raphinha and Bowen and we will be fine on both Salah and Mané replacements imo.

Klopp is the key for us.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #116 on: June 2, 2022, 11:10:35 am »
There are what, 25 players in a squad. Contracts are usually what 4 years? So there should always be 4 or 5 players coming into last years of their contracts. Players also can't be forced to sign new ones even if we wanted to. Did we try to extend some of these players? Yes. Did they want to extend, no.

Acting like this is poor planning is a really shallow view point, it's far more nuanced then that.

The poor planning is the 4 or 5 players all playing in a similar position. Origi is going on a free this season and we have Salah,  Mane, Firmino, Keita and Ox being free able to sign for someone else in January. That is 4 forwards and two attacking mids all potentially becoming free agents within 12 months.
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Offline Sharado

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #117 on: June 2, 2022, 11:43:24 am »

Finals are usually won by the most obdurate team. The team that refuses to give in and not the team that tries to win the game.

I completely agree with this. I said to my mate before the game the score could be 4-0 to us, but more likely it'll be 1-0 either way. In all these games we get an early goal and we win comfortably [see Man City semi final], but once 20 mins is up we almost need to be able to switch back to being less progressive [so trent isn't a 4th attacker/midfielder he's 'just' a right back] and probe. We def need some midfield upgrades to do that though and - for me - a more traditional striker then we've played with before.
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

Anything else is negligent.

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #118 on: June 2, 2022, 02:14:57 pm »
We are always likely to be at the wrong end of stats in finals though. When we are at our best we are a high energy pressing team. The first half of the FA Cup semi-final would be a great example of that.

That doesn't really suit playing in finals, though. Finals are played at the end of a season when energy levels are lower. The other key thing is how much nervous energy is burnt up by the build up to finals. That isn't really conducive to pressing or counter pressing.

Finals are usually won by the most obdurate team. The team that refuses to give in and not the team that tries to win the game.
 

Interesting point, however this is likely to be less the case as time goes by and we become more of a possession team.  Mane and Salah leaving creates an opportunity change what we are best at.

We have been somewhat unlucky that we are in an era, where teams can get 90+ and not win the league, but we won't be the last team this happens to. This is what it takes to win the league now and this is the trend the premier league is following;
https://www.myfootballfacts.com/premier-league-winners/

In the 90's teams won the league multiple times with 70 odd points, BUT that hasn't happened since the 1990's, the totals are escalating upwards broadly over time, (you get the odd exception like Leicester with 81 points), this is partly down to Guardiola and how they they are funded but not entirely,  Conte's Chelsea won the league in 2017 with 93 points that is more points than Fergie's united ever won with.  Therefore it is necessary to look at our brilliant side and be prepared to "nitpick" and identify relative flaws and not to simply conclude it is ALL down to unprecedented cheating, even if that is the most painless conclusion.

City may have beaten the rules, but we can beat them, but we to focus on ourselves, not the authorities, or the refs.

Offline incredibleL4ever

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Re: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?
« Reply #119 on: June 2, 2022, 04:34:59 pm »
The poor planning is the 4 or 5 players all playing in a similar position. Origi is going on a free this season and we have Salah,  Mane, Firmino, Keita and Ox being free able to sign for someone else in January. That is 4 forwards and two attacking mids all potentially becoming free agents within 12 months.

Covid has a lot to do with this.  Due to the losses during Covid contracts, that should have been upgraded, were left to drift.  It is more a consequence of circumstance rather than bad planning.