Author Topic: FAN UPDATE - Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas  (Read 223835 times)

Offline Sooty89!!!

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #160 on: February 8, 2017, 03:48:33 pm »
was it kerry you sat next to?she met klopp on the pre-season tour of the usa

https://www.facebook.com/KerryMacuska

on the subject of tickets, just raise the prices to where supply = demand and be done with it, £85 a seat i think would probably be the equilibrium point for an average game £100 for the best games
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Offline toonboy

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #161 on: February 8, 2017, 03:53:33 pm »
I hope that's a joke

its not a joke, but i am playing devils advocate, if you want success you need money. I would prefer to watch half as many games a year and pay the same if it meant that we had the best players in the world. The only way you will ever solve the touting problem is by raising the prices to market clearing prices, there is no other way

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #162 on: February 8, 2017, 03:58:49 pm »
its not a joke, but i am playing devils advocate, if you want success you need money. I would prefer to watch half as many games a year and pay the same if it meant that we had the best players in the world. The only way you will ever solve the touting problem is by raising the prices to market clearing prices, there is no other way
And I would rather play in the championship than pay £100 to go the match

Offline Sooty89!!!

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #163 on: February 8, 2017, 04:04:35 pm »
its not a joke, but i am playing devils advocate, if you want success you need money. I would prefer to watch half as many games a year and pay the same if it meant that we had the best players in the world. The only way you will ever solve the touting problem is by raising the prices to market clearing prices, there is no other way
So basically just making going the match un-accessible for working class fans and youngsters? I reckon your in the overwhelming minority if your prepared to pay prices like that!

Offline Sooty89!!!

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #164 on: February 8, 2017, 04:05:32 pm »
And I would rather play in the championship than pay £100 to go the match
This!

Offline Priest078

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #165 on: February 8, 2017, 05:06:13 pm »
just bring back the book and vouchers.

Offline toonboy

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #166 on: February 8, 2017, 05:22:49 pm »
And I would rather play in the championship than pay £100 to go the match

its not going to happen though, prices will increase (slowly) but will get more expensive in real terms, especially for locals, its not fair but it is an inevitability

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #167 on: February 8, 2017, 05:54:11 pm »
its not a joke, but i am playing devils advocate, if you want success you need money. I would prefer to watch half as many games a year and pay the same if it meant that we had the best players in the world. The only way you will ever solve the touting problem is by raising the prices to market clearing prices, there is no other way

Thankfully that mindset isn't prevalent in our fanbase.

Sorry but if you look at the actual differences in income for the club when it comes to higher ticket prices, that idea you put forward just falls apart. The club wanted to raise the ticket prices upto £77 in parts of the ground, but it only increased the club's revenue by £2 million when all would have been said and done. Sorry but an extra £2m per year isn't going to allow Liverpool to start buying players like Hazard, Aguero and Neymar.

With the new TV deals, the effect of ticket prices on a football club becomes smaller and smaller, I believe it's <20% of total income at LFC now, although Graham will know better. It doesn't matter what Liverpool do with ticket prices, they won't allow LFC to compete with City/Chelsea/United

If Liverpool tried to take such a right wing approach to football, it'd lead to more protests, followed by the Kop no longer having flags, followed by LFC no longer having those "special nights at Anfield" because it'd be a ground of customers and not fans.  This would not only effect the players on the pitch, but it also stops the club getting people like Klopp who came due to the culture of the club, and the club loses it's unique selling point to potential investors and commercial partners.


The club had a taste of what happens when they try to push too far, even fans on the kop who's ticket prices would go down, joined in the walkout. Fans walked out at 2-0 in the 77th minute, by the final whistle it was 2-2 and those remaining booed them off the pitch. They surely aren't dumb enough to go down that route again
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #168 on: February 8, 2017, 06:31:24 pm »
its not a joke, but i am playing devils advocate, if you want success you need money. I would prefer to watch half as many games a year and pay the same if it meant that we had the best players in the world. The only way you will ever solve the touting problem is by raising the prices to market clearing prices, there is no other way

Ticket prices are a smaller and smaller part and an increase makes little impact on the amount that can be invested.
its not going to happen though, prices will increase (slowly) but will get more expensive in real terms, especially for locals, its not fair but it is an inevitability

It isn't. It so isn't.
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #169 on: February 8, 2017, 07:00:29 pm »
its not a joke, but i am playing devils advocate, if you want success you need money. I would prefer to watch half as many games a year and pay the same if it meant that we had the best players in the world. The only way you will ever solve the touting problem is by raising the prices to market clearing prices, there is no other way

Jesus fucking christ.

Offline Shanklygates

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #170 on: February 8, 2017, 07:46:57 pm »
was it kerry you sat next to?she met klopp on the pre-season tour of the usa

https://www.facebook.com/KerryMacuska

No
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #171 on: February 9, 2017, 08:59:08 am »
on the subject of tickets, just raise the prices to where supply = demand and be done with it, £85 a seat i think would probably be the equilibrium point for an average game £100 for the best games

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Offline toonboy

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #172 on: February 9, 2017, 10:34:11 am »

The club had a taste of what happens when they try to push too far, even fans on the kop who's ticket prices would go down, joined in the walkout. Fans walked out at 2-0 in the 77th minute, by the final whistle it was 2-2 and those remaining booed them off the pitch. They surely aren't dumb enough to go down that route again

i remember that game, stayed to the end, didnt want to miss the final 2 goals  ;D

but seriously, i get what everyone is saying, i was playing devils advocate, looks like there is no real way to solve the touting issue, there are downsides to all ideas that would work.
« Last Edit: February 9, 2017, 10:37:29 am by toonboy »

Offline toonboy

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #173 on: February 9, 2017, 10:42:23 am »
i do have one solution that would end all touting at football and all touting of concert tickets.

Everyone pays market clearing prices but those who attend on the night/day get a wad of cash back at the door. Those who attend pay a reasonable amount and no room for touts. I know that would mean putting a lot of money up front though and some people can not afford that.

However, how about you can do it on an LFC credit card with 0% interest, those who attend get a little reciept as they go through the turnstile and they re credit their account with the difference (then again touts could collect these at the end of the game also from the attendee)

Offline Claire.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #174 on: February 9, 2017, 11:36:26 am »
i do have one solution that would end all touting at football and all touting of concert tickets.

Everyone pays market clearing prices but those who attend on the night/day get a wad of cash back at the door. Those who attend pay a reasonable amount and no room for touts. I know that would mean putting a lot of money up front though and some people can not afford that.

However, how about you can do it on an LFC credit card with 0% interest, those who attend get a little reciept as they go through the turnstile and they re credit their account with the difference (then again touts could collect these at the end of the game also from the attendee)

There's no such thing as a way to end touting without the club enforcing a zero tolerance policy on them, checking the ticket was bought and used by the same person - that's the only way. Money is not the issue. Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. The club could charge £100 a ticket, a tout can charge someone who missed out on the sales £120, relatively it's not a shitload more and if they sell 10 tickets they've made £200 on top. Have you not seen tickets for large arena tours selling for hundreds on top?

Offline RMG

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #175 on: February 9, 2017, 12:22:43 pm »
What an awful suggestion putting ticket prices up, ironic as well considering we're talking about touts and touting tickets.

Offline toonboy

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #176 on: February 9, 2017, 12:24:49 pm »
There's no such thing as a way to end touting without the club enforcing a zero tolerance policy on them, checking the ticket was bought and used by the same person - that's the only way. Money is not the issue. Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. The club could charge £100 a ticket, a tout can charge someone who missed out on the sales £120, relatively it's not a shitload more and if they sell 10 tickets they've made £200 on top. Have you not seen tickets for large arena tours selling for hundreds on top?

if you set the price correctly there is always a ticket available right up until 15:00, that is the definition of elastic pricing. It would be like booking an easyjet flight, maybe the price would drop to 5 pound in the last 10 mins if the tickets were not sold

Offline Claire.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #177 on: February 9, 2017, 12:51:15 pm »
if you set the price correctly there is always a ticket available right up until 15:00, that is the definition of elastic pricing. It would be like booking an easyjet flight, maybe the price would drop to 5 pound in the last 10 mins if the tickets were not sold

Bring back paying on the gate.

Offline Priest078

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #178 on: February 9, 2017, 02:23:48 pm »
Bring back paying on the gate.


Would stop touting for sure.

Offline the 92A

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #179 on: February 9, 2017, 02:50:26 pm »
I agree with Ritchie, the touting thing, needs sorting separately from the ticket availability. Although the two are linked ridiculous that people have 30 plus fan cards, only people who could claim any legitimacy would be those running some of the away coaches. Social changes have meant in a few years selling overpriced tickets has gone from totally unacceptable to semi-acceptable and done openly because its rich overseas fans. Too many 'good lads' doing it because it's easy money. Bottom line club don't seem that arsed about touting look at Thomas Cook, no wonder people wanted a bit of the action after seeing what they were touting their 'packages' for but it fucks us up.

Agree with Graham about the slight bias for locals but big bias for youngsters, like Ritchie we have a group of us, and always try and swap seats or tickets and cards to allow mates to take their kids and sit together. I think we are all aware that our kids are finding it really hard to get the match and we have found it increasingly hard to have the relationship we had with our Dads going the match together, never mind growing out of that and going on your own. I got match and bus money every week off my Dad but at most it was a few quid because it was affordable. I'd love to see cheap pay on the gate for under 20's, solve loads of problems.
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #180 on: February 9, 2017, 03:35:12 pm »
I have dealt with two cases today where the ticket holders have come to me after losing season tickets seeking support in getting them back.

Unfortunately, the bans arose from someone being identified as a professional tout and the tickets being traced back to these people. They have been at best negligent in how cavalier they have been wth the cards but it has resulted in a number of tickets being reclaimed back for recycling by the Club from a tout and some disruption to his trade.

This might have been at the cost of some decent people losing out but they didn't keep proper track of where their tickets went.
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #181 on: February 9, 2017, 04:46:52 pm »
Graham is pay on the gate a complete non starter with the club?

Yes, on many levels.

Safety probably primarily, it isn't far from the imagination that you could see thousands seeking entry if say half a stand was marked as POTG. Public order and safety would be something the Club and public services just would not wear.

Secondly the management of it and increased stewarding would be part of it - I suppose it would have to be card only but if not cash handling would not be popular with the Club.

I think its time has gone whether it is liked or not from the Club's point of view.
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Offline Brunswickred

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #182 on: February 9, 2017, 06:07:22 pm »
I have dealt with two cases today where the ticket holders have come to me after losing season tickets seeking support in getting them back.

Unfortunately, the bans arose from someone being identified as a professional tout and the tickets being traced back to these people. They have been at best negligent in how cavalier they have been wth the cards but it has resulted in a number of tickets being reclaimed back for recycling by the Club from a tout and some disruption to his trade.

This might have been at the cost of some decent people losing out but they didn't keep proper track of where their tickets went.

This just exemplifies how tricky the issue is. In this case I would err on the side of backing the club, though I appreciate there could be mitigating circumstances. As far as I'm concerned however, I would only ever pass my ticket on to someone (i.e. a friend) who I know for a fact is going to attend the game themselves - because otherwise it's a gamble and at the end of the day, it's my future tickets on the line. I'd rather take the hit on the price of the ticket if I couldn't find a mate rather than risk the murkiness of where your ticket is going and at what price. It's harsh but we can't all moan the club is doing nothing to stop touting and then moan when they take action.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #183 on: February 9, 2017, 06:11:48 pm »
I have dealt with two cases today where the ticket holders have come to me after losing season tickets seeking support in getting them back.

Unfortunately, the bans arose from someone being identified as a professional tout and the tickets being traced back to these people. They have been at best negligent in how cavalier they have been wth the cards but it has resulted in a number of tickets being reclaimed back for recycling by the Club from a troubtout and some disruption to his trade.

This might have been at the cost of some decent people losing out but they didn't keep proper track of where their tickets went.
That's why I'd always check who exactly is using your cards if you sell them for a match. Fine if you know the person but if it's a stranger who says it's for a 'mate' them it's asking for trouble in my opinion

Offline Alf

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #184 on: February 9, 2017, 07:36:16 pm »
I always insist if someone is taking a spare that I don't know that they go in with me through the turnstile. Had a mate who had his fingers burnt by a friend of a friend 3 years ago and lost his membership.

Offline davidsteventon

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #185 on: February 9, 2017, 08:05:36 pm »
Graham - What happened to the local kids taking up the 1000+ empty seats per game? Has this started? It was brilliant when suggested last year but I've not heard any more?

To me that's win win for everyone.

Offline davidsteventon

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #186 on: February 9, 2017, 08:12:49 pm »
To reference something on the last page about buses I think my comment was misunderstood as stamping your ticket in the bus and not fair for people that walk etc. I meant abroad, if you buy a bus ticket, you have to stamp/validate on board otherwise it's not valid - Poland do this - I suggested validation areas within the stadium. I don't think validation is the best option, but was an observation/option. Hope that clears it up.

Someone got shot down for elastic pricing. Elastic pricing is a very interesting theory, just one that doesn't suit us because it increases prices. An interesting read here: http://pearsonblog.campaignserver.co.uk/?tag=ticket-touts

Fact is on all this - Footy clubs can't get it right. Music venues can't. Nobody seems to have got to grips with it. The best we can hope for is to remove those taking the piss.

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #187 on: February 9, 2017, 08:40:56 pm »
if you set the price correctly there is always a ticket available right up until 15:00, that is the definition of elastic pricing. It would be like booking an easyjet flight, maybe the price would drop to 5 pound in the last 10 mins if the tickets were not sold

I can't believe you're advocating fleecing proper fans because some rich c*nts would be there to fill the ground instead. What a joke.
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Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #188 on: February 9, 2017, 08:41:45 pm »
Graham - What happened to the local kids taking up the 1000+ empty seats per game? Has this started? It was brilliant when suggested last year but I've not heard any more?

To me that's win win for everyone.

Graham has mentioned a few pages back that there has been massive problems with it as up to 60% of those tickets have been touted.
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Offline davidsteventon

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #189 on: February 9, 2017, 08:48:38 pm »
Graham has mentioned a few pages back that there has been massive problems with it as up to 60% of those tickets have been touted.

Yeah that's the local tickets in U1 and U9. This was something different - at the start of the season SOS said about how 1000+ seats in the ground remain unoccupied for various reasons. Plans or ideas were in place to get kids into these seats for free.

Offline davidsteventon

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #190 on: February 9, 2017, 08:53:15 pm »
I can't believe you're advocating fleecing proper fans because some rich c*nts would be there to fill the ground instead. What a joke.

He's right, in a way that none of us want to see or entertain.

http://pearsonblog.campaignserver.co.uk/?tag=ticket-touts
http://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Competitive_markets/Non_market_price.html

"The equilibrium price in a secondary market is where supply equals demand and the actual price will approximate to this equilibrium. In the case of tickets, this equilibrium price can be much higher than the original price sold by the venue or its agents. The reason is that the original price is below the equilibrium."

If we set prices at £10 - maybe 100,000 would like that.
If we set them at £50 - maybe 75,000 would like.
If we set them at £100 - maybe 50,000 would like

The £10 and £50 creates the secondary market, where someone ends up paying £200 a ticket. It's because the starting point was massively below what could be 'had'.


It's horrible isn't it. I hate it. I'd not want anyone asking for it, but I know what he's saying.
« Last Edit: February 9, 2017, 08:54:46 pm by davidsteventon »

Offline andy07

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #191 on: February 9, 2017, 09:30:28 pm »
He's right, in a way that none of us want to see or entertain.

http://pearsonblog.campaignserver.co.uk/?tag=ticket-touts
http://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Competitive_markets/Non_market_price.html

"The equilibrium price in a secondary market is where supply equals demand and the actual price will approximate to this equilibrium. In the case of tickets, this equilibrium price can be much higher than the original price sold by the venue or its agents. The reason is that the original price is below the equilibrium."

If we set prices at £10 - maybe 100,000 would like that.
If we set them at £50 - maybe 75,000 would like.
If we set them at £100 - maybe 50,000 would like

The £10 and £50 creates the secondary market, where someone ends up paying £200 a ticket. It's because the starting point was massively below what could be 'had'.


It's horrible isn't it. I hate it. I'd not want anyone asking for it, but I know what he's saying.

Which is why FSG explored the idea of £77 tickets, we didn't like it but FSG would be quite happy to market the tickets per game on a price that would sell 101% of the capacity.    For Utd and Everton that could be approaching an average of £100 a ticket because there are more than 54000 who would pay this price.  Would wipe out touts but would also wipe out most of the regulars (me included).  This is why they are reluctant to expand the ground, in their minds why spend more on the stadium to sell tickets at what we would consider competitive prices when they can get the same revenue by hiking prices with the existing capacity.   Look at our League and FA Cup pricing,  charging the maximum price that will ensure 54000 bums on seats and it has worked.
« Last Edit: February 9, 2017, 09:40:50 pm by andy07 »
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Offline Brunswickred

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #192 on: February 9, 2017, 09:45:05 pm »
Graham has mentioned a few pages back that there has been massive problems with it as up to 60% of those tickets have been touted.

In terms of the 500 U1/U9 tickets, I've seen this mentioned a few times now and I'm interested where the club are getting this figure from bearing in mind they haven't done full checks on them? I know they've been asking the odd person how much they paid for them when they're walking to their seats but me and my mates have been up there for virtually every game and never been asked once.

Not saying it isn't the case but I've a healthy scepticism (of the club, not Graham) on this issue. Just seems to me there is a reason they keep putting this line out. Don't get me wrong, I know there's a good number getting passed on (partly down to how the club set the scheme up & using paper tickets etc.) but I'm unsure on whether it's as much as the club are saying.

Offline andy07

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #193 on: February 9, 2017, 10:04:57 pm »
In terms of the 500 U1/U9 tickets, I've seen this mentioned a few times now and I'm interested where the club are getting this figure from bearing in mind they haven't done full checks on them? I know they've been asking the odd person how much they paid for them when they're walking to their seats but me and my mates have been up there for virtually every game and never been asked once.

Not saying it isn't the case but I've a healthy scepticism (of the club, not Graham) on this issue. Just seems to me there is a reason they keep putting this line out. Don't get me wrong, I know there's a good number getting passed on (partly down to how the club set the scheme up & using paper tickets etc.) but I'm unsure on whether it's as much as the club are saying.

The tell tale sign was the number of empty seats in U9 for the Swansea game, clearly tickets that the touts had purchased and couldn't offload.   The sad thing is that there are a good 70-75% who are local and get behind the team.  The non-locals stick out like the proverbial sore thumb.   
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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #194 on: February 9, 2017, 10:11:44 pm »
What riles me the most are the 'sound people' on twitter with god knows how many cards, selling them week in week out.

Be careful who you pass your card on to as it could end up in the hands of these people, and could end up getting your card blocked.

Had a close call recently myself that I am not going to get into or name names on here but that is what happened basically.

Why the club dont do anything about it is unbelievable

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #195 on: February 9, 2017, 10:45:07 pm »
Hope you named names with the club and the bizzies if some tout stitched you up mate.

We all need to be bigger grasses ;D
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Offline mattyyt

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #196 on: February 10, 2017, 12:05:37 am »
In terms of the 500 U1/U9 tickets, I've seen this mentioned a few times now and I'm interested where the club are getting this figure from bearing in mind they haven't done full checks on them? I know they've been asking the odd person how much they paid for them when they're walking to their seats but me and my mates have been up there for virtually every game and never been asked once.

Not saying it isn't the case but I've a healthy scepticism (of the club, not Graham) on this issue. Just seems to me there is a reason they keep putting this line out. Don't get me wrong, I know there's a good number getting passed on (partly down to how the club set the scheme up & using paper tickets etc.) but I'm unsure on whether it's as much as the club are saying.

They're either doing random spot checks, or checks on people that don't look local. I've seen stewards in U1/U9 go up to people a few times before kick off and ask to see tickets, and he then checks it off a list. One came up to some irish lads about 30 minutes into the game a few weeks ago, they all had tickets, but the steward took one guy away and spoke with him for a good five minutes. Not a clue what it was all about.

Offline andy07

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #197 on: February 10, 2017, 09:16:12 am »
I would hazard a guess that 90% of the touts are locals, the enemy within.   Get some photos of the ones that hang around the back of the Kop and send them into the Club.   Be interesting to see what they do (don't do).
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Offline RedPat

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #198 on: February 10, 2017, 10:29:11 am »
I'll wager 50 quid to the first taker that absolutely fuck all will happen next season and the following season to curb away touting and if they ever get around to it the away tickets they recover from touts will be used as a selling point to sell the most expensive seasonal hospitality tickets ie buy expensive seasonal hospitality and you can buy away tickets with no credits required.
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Offline Barrowred

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Re: Ticketing changes to reduce touting - discussion and ideas
« Reply #199 on: February 10, 2017, 10:32:41 am »
The amount of tickets that get sold in the Flat Iron before the game is ridiculous. There are two lads and a couple who must be shifting over 50 tickets in plain view of everyone. It looks quite an organised operation as well.