Author Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?  (Read 265941 times)

Offline Laergoth

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2160 on: January 19, 2011, 06:07:06 pm »
Dunga did not use Lucas regularly, by the way. Only in the Olympics, which is more of a youth tournament than anything. Lucas played absolutely no part in Brazil's qualification for the World Cup.

Apologies. He played in 2 of Brazil's qualification matches, out of 18. Against Venezuela and Bolivia (http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/statisticsandrecords/players/player=233335/index.html).

That is not 'regular'. Those 18 matches were important, competitive games, and Dunga only played Lucas in 2 of them. No matter how you look at it, Dunga did not play Lucas regularly. AND, he didn't make the World Cup squad.

Offline AJ4Seven

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2161 on: January 19, 2011, 06:09:39 pm »
Of course I want us to replicate it, but we couldn't just do it at the drop of a hat. We'd start it off in the academy, but in the first team we'd have to gradually mold a team that can play that type of football, adapt to that kind of formation, whilst the style is something that would have to be gradually brought in, not immediately. Still, if we were to have a player that would be crucial to pass and move, it would be a player like Fabregas, or another type of 'playmaker general'. Lucas simply isn't a playmaker, hence why I don't feel he'd be of significant importance to the pass and move style. He'd be important to balance and shape, but his passing now barely affects how we play, so picturing him holding the strings whilst we attempt to play Total Football would be, quite simply, farcical.

We have too many players that cannot(or are uncomfortable playing that way) play a pass & move style, keeping the ones who can is imperative, no-one(as far as I can see) is suggesting that without Lucas we could never play that way, but he is plenty good enough to play that style.

Also back to the Barca thing, as far as I know we now do play the same formation & style throughout our academy teams so we have started on that road, but young players are always going to look up to 1st team regulars, I would rather they followed Lucas's example than our other midfielders.

As for the bolded, show someone who has never seen the current Barca team play a vid of Busquets playing & then tell them he is playing for one of the best sides of the modern era, they would likely find that farcical too.

Offline Laergoth

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2162 on: January 19, 2011, 06:10:47 pm »
Arguing that the lad who played a full game yet did not attempt a single tackle on his premiership debut is better than Lucas at CM is a tall order, and I'd like to see it. I love a little laugh here and there.

Since you're calling me out on trivial statistics that I got slightly wrong (saying Lucas played no part in the WC Qualification, when he actually played 2 out of 18), I'll do the same to you:

Spearing attempted 3 tackles, and was successful with 2 of them.

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2163 on: January 19, 2011, 06:22:57 pm »
Except that he played in 2 qualifiers.

 ;D
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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2164 on: January 19, 2011, 06:25:45 pm »
Dunga did not use Lucas regularly, by the way. Only in the Olympics, which is more of a youth tournament than anything. Lucas played absolutely no part in Brazil's qualification for the World Cup.
Except that he played in 2 qualifiers.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2165 on: January 19, 2011, 06:26:41 pm »
Fair comment. Some people insist on defining Lucas as a CM so, in some posts, I'm having to debate on the pretense of Lucas being one. But, in my opinion, he is a DM.

So, it's probably unfair to compare Spearing, who is a CM, and Lucas, who is a DM. But some people just keep on calling Lucas a CM.

What do you mean by "fair comment"? I summarized your position. Of course you'll think it's a fair comment.

Now, how about the "corollary"?
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2166 on: January 19, 2011, 06:29:33 pm »
For argument's sake, what did/have any of these coaches achieved by making Lucas a regular? Whilst Dunga only ever had Lucas as a regular for his squad, but never a regular in his team.

You're changing the argument ad hoc. Were all the others 1. fools or 2. did they have no other options but to use Lucas?
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Offline Julio

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2167 on: January 19, 2011, 06:31:59 pm »
You're changing the argument ad hoc. Were all the others 1. fools or 2. did they have no other options but to use Lucas?

In fairness, Lucas could well have been one of just four or five central midfielders who were eligible for Brazil at the time.
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Offline Laergoth

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2168 on: January 19, 2011, 06:35:22 pm »
Brazil are certainly known for churning out streams of defensive midfielders. :D It's not like all the kids on the streets there want to play in attack.

Offline Julio

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2169 on: January 19, 2011, 06:37:02 pm »
Oh dear.
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Offline El Campeador

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2170 on: January 19, 2011, 06:41:34 pm »
Would agree with this. Lucas's acceleration is poor. He certainly isn't pacey and it shows when the team are making fluid attacking movements and he fails to get there quite in time. I don't think he's slow, but he's probably one of our least quick players. It's especially his acceleration - which is arguably as bad as Dirk's, though Dirk at least has a powerful maximum speed.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I knew that given enough time, you'd hang yourself. Here, is proof positive, that you've never watched the lad. EVER.

I gonna quote you over and over and over again. I gonna make you famous. Like Raoul Duke.

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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2171 on: January 19, 2011, 06:43:36 pm »
"You'll neeever walk alone
But I'll do my best to change that"

Every one loves a comedian I bet your single!

Ok as i stated about thirty pages back of this epically silly thread,  Lucas has had to adapt his position and style of play from the way he operated in Brazil. He has done this in a climate of turmoil and under achievers around him, he has now settled down to be an important cog in the wheel. not a showy hit and miss cog like certain players in the team, but he is a constant a reliable person in the midfield.

So far some he has suffered from some posters for not being either Masch or Alonso or even a combination of both of these far more experienced players than him, somebody explain to me how a young man in a role he has had to grow into, could possibly reach these unrealistic targets for his blind detractors in this thread. He is 23 check out how good Alonso was when he was 23 compared to now!

For me and it is only my opinion if you simply look for mistakes and if you concentrate on any one player rather than the game, you will not be disappointed will you, every player during 90+ minutes will make mistakes if you only watch them.

I also noted that a couple of posters alone have probably chalked up over 50 posts each all on the same theme which is they do not rate Lucas, and then make any argument or comment try to fit there viewpoint, if i was a betting man i might think they are obsessed with criticising  this guy and I would wonder why that would be!

As i said before Lucas will be an immense player in the near future and I would like him to still be wearing our shirts when he is! Or of course we can blindly have another Anelka moment and regret it everytime you watch him play!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 06:45:51 pm by geoffstrong »
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2172 on: January 19, 2011, 06:51:08 pm »
In fairness, Lucas could well have been one of just four or five central midfielders who were eligible for Brazil at the time.

Likewise for LFC, I suppose, then, right?

Eagerly awaiting the maturation of Spearing and Plessis, to be sure, and making do with Lucas Leiva instead.
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Offline Julio

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2173 on: January 19, 2011, 07:01:25 pm »
Likewise for LFC, I suppose, then, right?

Eagerly awaiting the maturation of Spearing and Plessis, to be sure, and making do with Lucas Leiva instead.

I was taking the piss out of the likes of Laergoth, Grk.
Lucas is our player of the season, as far as I'm concerned.
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Offline Strummer77

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2174 on: January 19, 2011, 07:08:07 pm »
Since you're calling me out on trivial statistics that I got slightly wrong (saying Lucas played no part in the WC Qualification, when he actually played 2 out of 18), I'll do the same to you:

Spearing attempted 3 tackles, and was successful with 2 of them.

Wasn't his PL debut against Sunderland last year? Or are those stats for that.

Either way Lucas is a million times better.

Offline sneakyg

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2175 on: January 19, 2011, 07:18:35 pm »
1 question for the lucas fans.....what regularly starting central midfielder of a team in the top 4 is he better than? and how/why?


Offline Cadno

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2176 on: January 19, 2011, 07:19:39 pm »
1 question for the lucas fans.....what regularly starting central midfielder of a team in the top 4 is he better than? and how/why?


Take a look back throuugh the thread its already been answered.
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Offline sneakyg

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2177 on: January 19, 2011, 07:39:11 pm »
Take a look back throuugh the thread its already been answered.

55 pages? it will take forever (ish) to find out - can u summarise?

Offline Salty Dog

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2178 on: January 19, 2011, 07:47:05 pm »
55 pages? it will take forever (ish) to find out - can u summarise?

Or you could read those pages, which yes would take a long time, in an effort to educate yourself.  It's what I've done before I started posting in this thread.

Sure, you won't get any instant gratification, but you may just learn something.  But I guess you already know everything there is to know regarding Lucas, and you will use this knowledge to berate anybody who offers up someone, from those top 4 teams, who Lucas is better than.
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Offline jDJ

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2179 on: January 19, 2011, 07:51:47 pm »
We're 13th in the league currently emboiled in our worst season in living memory and some fans want to fck off our 24 year old Brazilian international - golly.

You should be worrying he doesn't want to fck us off.

Offline Cadno

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2180 on: January 19, 2011, 07:52:05 pm »
55 pages? it will take forever (ish) to find out - can u summarise?
No because its nonsense.  It just starts the circular arguments all over again
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Offline Laergoth

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2181 on: January 19, 2011, 07:53:27 pm »
Or you could read those pages, which yes would take a long time, in an effort to educate yourself.  It's what I've done before I started posting in this thread.

Sure, you won't get any instant gratification, but you may just learn something.  But I guess you already know everything there is to know regarding Lucas, and you will use this knowledge to berate anybody who offers up someone, from those top 4 teams, who Lucas is better than.

Educate himself? Come off it. This is an internet forum. No-one is going to get an 'education' by reading through this thread - they're just going to get some opinions. Honestly, get over yourselves. How pretentious can you get?

The best way to learn about Lucas is to watch him play, not read through an internet forum.

Offline Julio

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2182 on: January 19, 2011, 07:58:01 pm »
Educate himself? Come off it. This is an internet forum. No-one is going to get an 'education' by reading through this thread - they're just going to get some opinions. Honestly, get over yourselves. How pretentious can you get?

The best way to learn about Lucas is to watch him play, not read through an internet forum.

Some people don't have time for an education. How sad.
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Offline barneyk100

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2183 on: January 19, 2011, 07:58:25 pm »
Educate himself? Come off it. This is an internet forum. No-one is going to get an 'education' by reading through this thread - they're just going to get some opinions. Honestly, get over yourselves. How pretentious can you get?

The best way to learn about Lucas is to watch him play, not read through an internet forum.

Opinions backed up by facts and figures.....strange, it doesn't take a genuis to work out which side do that. I swear you're like a scab I keep picking by reading your crap.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2184 on: January 19, 2011, 07:59:51 pm »
Educate himself? Come off it. This is an internet forum. No-one is going to get an 'education' by reading through this thread - they're just going to get some opinions. Honestly, get over yourselves. How pretentious can you get?

The best way to learn about Lucas is to watch him play, not read through an internet forum.

Any one of the mega posts in the level 3 thread would educate more than your whole lifetime of watching football.
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Offline Laergoth

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2185 on: January 19, 2011, 08:06:37 pm »
Opinions backed up by facts and figures.....strange, it doesn't take a genuis to work out which side do that. I swear you're like a scab I keep picking by reading your crap.

Talking about gaining an 'education' by reading through this thread is flat out ridiculous. Unbelievable pretentiousness. Plus, many of the "facts and figures" quoted in this thread have been bullshit. Here are a few gems:

"Lucas was a regular for Brazil under Dunga".

"Lucas is definitely going to win the next World Cup for Brazil".

"Lucas only plays badly because the other players in the Liverpool team don't move around as effectively as Barcelona players move around".

"Lucas plays the game as an intellectual pursuit, making quick passes backwards or sideways in order for the opposition to move out of shape".

"Lucas is exactly like Ronnie Whelan [who doesn't rate Lucas] and Ian Callaghan, and Shankly would definitely have loved Lucas".

;D Absolutely laughable.

Offline JasbinderX

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2186 on: January 19, 2011, 08:08:20 pm »
Yeah that whoppa about Lucas being a regular under Dunga is one that pops up on this site a fair bit.

Lucas only played a few friendlies when the main stars weren't playing. He wasn't even selected in the World Cup squad.

Offline Cadno

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2187 on: January 19, 2011, 08:09:12 pm »
Talking about gaining an 'education' by reading through this thread is flat out ridiculous. Unbelievable pretentiousness. Plus, many of the "facts and figures" quoted in this thread have been bullshit. Here are a few gems:

"Lucas was a regular for Brazil under Dunga".

"Lucas is definitely going to win the next World Cup for Brazil".

"Lucas only plays badly because the other players in the Liverpool team don't move around as effectively as Barcelona players move around".

"Lucas plays the game as an intellectual pursuit, making quick passes backwards or sideways in order for the opposition to move out of shape".

"Lucas is exactly like Ronnie Whelan [who doesn't rate Lucas] and Ian Callaghan, and Shankly would definitely have loved Lucas".

;D Absolutely laughable.
Then why spend all your time on here then? ???
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Offline Salty Dog

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2188 on: January 19, 2011, 08:10:00 pm »
Educate himself?

Says someone who has no inclination to do so because they've already made their mind up and can't entertain the notion that there may be more to the picture than what they choose to see.
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Offline Laergoth

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2189 on: January 19, 2011, 08:11:48 pm »
Then why spend all your time on here then? ???

I've always enjoyed comedy. Reading this thread is almost as fun as watching The Office. ;D

Offline Cadno

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2190 on: January 19, 2011, 08:14:56 pm »
I've always enjoyed comedy. Reading this thread is almost as fun as watching The Office. ;D
Its pretty pathetic to come onto a internet forum to have a go at peoples opinion just for laughs.  Have you no friends you can go to the pub with for some shits and giggles?  224 posts and most of them on here is a sad really.  But then if this is how you bring a little joy into your like then who are we to argue  ::)
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Offline sneakyg

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2191 on: January 19, 2011, 08:15:24 pm »
We're 13th in the league currently emboiled in our worst season in living memory and some fans want to fck off our 24 year old Brazilian international - golly.

You should be worrying he doesn't want to fck us off.

international? didnt see him at the world cup...he will never be a regular in the national team.

Offline Salty Dog

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2192 on: January 19, 2011, 08:18:20 pm »
international? didnt see him at the world cup...he will never be a regular in the national team.

You state this as a matter of fact.  I presume you must have a crystal ball which allows you to see the future.  Care to share with us the winning lottery #s for tomorrow?
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Offline leivapool

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2193 on: January 19, 2011, 08:24:16 pm »
We're 13th in the league currently emboiled in our worst season in living memory and some fans want to fck off our 24 year old Brazilian international - golly.

You should be worrying he doesn't want to fck us off.

I also thought this and said so one one of the many Lucas threads I posted on.

I'm beginning to wonder why Lucas would choose to stay with us.  I mean, he is one of the pivotal players in the young Brazil side being developed especially with the 2014 World Cup in mind.  They can only play friendlies because Brazil don't need to qualify.  And yet, all the doubters amongst the LFC fans can focus on is that Lucas is:

Not as good as Xabi
Not as good as Masch
Not as good as Busquets
Not as good as Spearing (which is surely the opinion of someone mad - my opinion)
He's too slow
Can't pass well enough
Can't tackle/head  the ball

How about we fous on him as Lucas Leiva, young, talented Brazilain who gives 100% every match.  Seriously we are supposed to be supporters.  To be honest Lucas deserves better than this.  With a couple of decent wide players, there is no doubt in my mind that Lucas would be easily fit into a title winning team. 

Like I said, Lucas is the pivotal player in teh Brazil national team NOW, do you reckon they are on to something?
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Offline sneakyg

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2194 on: January 19, 2011, 08:25:01 pm »
Says someone who has no inclination to do so because they've already made their mind up and can't entertain the notion that there may be more to the picture than what they choose to see.

so its a case of believe that Lucas is the real deal or your an idiot who doesnt know football?
they seem like the options people have.

We have all watched lucas and too say that he is a top midfielder is more wishing than knowing.

I cant think of a worse player (who has played as many times for us) than him, I can however appreciate that he has got better - in the sense that he is making less mistakes and contributing a tiny bit more.
He is poor when under pressure, rubbish in the last third, has no eye for goal, gives away needless free kicks.

I dont doubt that he can get better, but very much doubt and havnt seen enough evidence to suggest that he will be better than average.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2195 on: January 19, 2011, 08:39:28 pm »
so its a case of believe that Lucas is the real deal or your an idiot who doesnt know football?
they seem like the options people have.

Actually, no. As I've explained before, it's not what you think of Lucas that shows whether or not you understand football. It's how you think of him, that shows whether or not you understand football. There have been people I've argued with over Lucas, with me rating him, and them not rating him, but I respected their opinion as knowledgable, because of how they thought of him. How his recent critics described him shows they know squat about football.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2196 on: January 19, 2011, 08:49:59 pm »
Was a critic, but not anymore, based on this season's performance. However I feel he needs a defensive chaperone beside him. Raul is to week defensively. Against strong physical teams (at least 60% of all PL teams) he tends to struggle. I know he sees himself as a holding midfielder, and despite toughening up a lot this season, he still struggles against the stronger more physical teams. Having said that,I feel he needs a rest as he has looked tired of late, though he is not the only one. Meireles and Kuyt have also looked shattered. Non-LFC friend's who watch a lot more football than I do point out that his best position may also be slightly more forward rather than as an out and out holding player.
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Offline leivapool

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2197 on: January 19, 2011, 08:52:30 pm »
Slightly off topic, but can anyone tell me how many matches Lucas has missed through injury since he has been here, and what the injury/length of time out was?
Thanks
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline sneakyg

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2198 on: January 19, 2011, 08:57:17 pm »
Actually, no. As I've explained before, it's not what you think of Lucas that shows whether or not you understand football. It's how you think of him, that shows whether or not you understand football. There have been people I've argued with over Lucas, with me rating him, and them not rating him, but I respected their opinion as knowledgable, because of how they thought of him. How his recent critics described him shows they know squat about football.

this is HOW i think of him, i watch him...and watch him. your making football to complicated.

but i guess if i dont follow your forumla then i know diddly squat about the sport

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Why we should keep Lucas?
« Reply #2199 on: January 19, 2011, 08:57:30 pm »
Slightly off topic, but can anyone tell me how many matches Lucas has missed through injury since he has been here, and what the injury/length of time out was?
Thanks
Don't have an answer but he strikes me as being a model professional, and exceptionally fit. Can't really recall him having any lengthy spells injured. I suspect he is a lot tougher than he looks.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.