Topic: Bannergate

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Free speech?

so you'd be fine with pro Tory banners then, what with the club being founded by one?

[Alan_X]

Obscene this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39830087

And you're querying why a socialist-supporting banner is at ANFIELD??

I'd query why anyone wants a banner showing two men who have led the Labour Party to disastrous results in the council elections and are almost certainly going to guarantee five years of a massive Tory majority in the election.

And I'd like to know why the two men who did more for Hillsborough than Corbyn and McDonnell and who actually won their mayoral elections in Liverpool and Manchester aren't on the banner.

Go back and watch the first Corbyn rally in Liverpool and tell me at want point he mentions Hillsborough when he's talking about 'justice'. It's a fucking disgrace that man is on a banner next to the justice flames.

[sminp]

Obscene this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39830087

And you're querying why a socialist-supporting banner is at ANFIELD??

It's one thing to have a political banner at Anfield, it's quite another to put Corbyn's face next to the HJC badge. I'm fucking seething, he's done fuck all for the Hillsborough campaign and does not deserve to be put alongside it. The guy who made the flag is one of SOS apparently yet he's using the HJC badge to glorify Corbyn, that's fucking despicable.

[classycarra]

Obscene this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39830087

And you're querying why a socialist-supporting banner is at ANFIELD??

Hey Johnno. Just wanted to clarify something for you, in case this was a genuine accident as you aren't a Liverpool fan,  rather than a move of the goalposts.

Socialist supporting banners are very welcome at anfield, and are in show every week. All sorts f socialist ideals are proudly displayed with zero issues.

This isn't a socialist supporting banner. It's a corbyn and McDonnell supporting banner. Both men far achieved fuck all for socialism in this countr, but more pertinently for the monumental and incredible justice campaign that they're proudly displayed alongside. They did nothing. As you know, te campaign is extremely emotive to many of us. Seems disgraceful seeing their faces chucked on the bandwagon cheaply

 In fact these two Trotskyists have net cost socialism in the U.K as the upcoming electoral oblivion is their responsibility. They have set the Labour Party back decades

That's why a few of us have more than a bit of an issue with the flag. It isn't a simple socialist supporting flag

[Alan_X]

For those who haven't seen it watch this from 1st August 2015 at the Adelphi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve4fSA94TOo

Corbyn talks about Ricky Tomlinson and the Shrewsbury Pickets and the fight for justice...

He talks about Alex McFadden* and the Dock Strike and the fight for justice...

He talks about the great work the unions do...

He talks about 1988 Tony Benn, Eric Heffer and all the great work that they did...

He talks about History and how Liverpool fought against the slave trade... for justice

He talks about the Gay Pride march...

He talks about Irish Writers...

He talks about supporting working class art...

All that talk about justice and campaigns... and not a single fucking word about Hillsborough. In Liverpool. While the inquests were going on in Warrington.

And people think he should have his grid on a banner next to the Hillsborough flame?

Fucking shitstain.

I watched that at the time and kept thinking, he'll say something in a minute, all those mentions of 'justice' and he's going to say something, may be now?... err... no... fuck all.

*McFadden has been barred form Unite roles because of sexual harrassment:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/13/corbyn-ally-barred-from-unite-roles-over-sexual-harassment

[redmark]

For those who haven't seen it watch this from 1st August 2015...

All that talk about justice and campaigns... and not a single fucking word about Hillsborough. In Liverpool. While the inquests were going on in Warrington.

And people think he should have his grid on a banner next to the Hillsborough flame?

Fucking shitstain.

And three months later (with the Inquests still ongoing) photographed with a copy of the Scum tucked under his arm.

[Yorkykopite]

Well done guys, hope those who did it enjoy the fans being a laughing stock. Should have no complaints if they get banned.

The only problem with the banner is the two nonentities in the middle of it. When you think of all the greats that have been honoured on the Kop - men and women with a real connection to the city of Liverpool and to football - it feels a bit disgraceful to have two such non-achievers in that elite company. It doesn't help that they are a couple of wankers either.

[Alan_X]

The only problem with the banner is the two nonentities in the middle of it. When you think of all the greats that have been honoured on the Kop - men and women with a real connection to the city of Liverpool and to football - it feels a bit disgraceful to have two such non-achievers in that elite company. It doesn't help that they are a couple of wankers either.

From the Independent:

“The banner is acknowledgement for Jeremy and John’s tireless efforts in campaigning for social justice wherever that may be,” he said.

“We are as ever proud to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with them as they have with us on our long paths to justice.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/liverpool-corbyn-banner-southampton-kop-anfield-a7722521.html

All those years he campaigned in Parliament for the Hillsborough families. It's disgraceful that it's not recorded in Hansard for some reason.

[KiNki]

The only problem with the banner is the two nonentities in the middle of it.

indeed, no problem with a banner re-iterating our left leaning tradition. 

[Lush is the best medicine...]

From the Independent:

“The banner is acknowledgement for Jeremy and John’s tireless efforts in campaigning for social justice wherever that may be,” he said.

“We are as ever proud to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with them as they have with us on our long paths to justice.

Like the below examples of their work for 'social justice'

It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/09/what-did-jeremy-corbyn-s-new-shadow-chancellor-really-say-about-ira

(Nice to see him reaching out to the rag as well)

[BoRed]

All that talk about justice and campaigns... and not a single fucking word about Hillsborough. In Liverpool. While the inquests were going on in Warrington.

Contempt of court possibly?

If he had said something, you'd have probably criticised him for jeopardising the outcome of the inquests.

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

Contempt of court possibly?

If he had said something, you'd have probably criticised him for jeopardising the outcome of the inquests.

Bit personal isn't it? He was obviously speaking about before the inquests.

[BoRed]

He was obviously speaking about before the inquests.

Apologies if I misunderstood, but he said:

from 1st August 2015 at the Adelphi ... While the inquests were going on in Warrington.

BTW, I totally agree with Alan that Corbyn did nothing for the justice cause over his entire career, and I've already stated how I feel about that banner.

[SP]

If it had just been Corbyn and McDonnell on a banner, I don't think anyone would really care. Maybe a passing dismissive comment, not a big issue.

[Millie]

If it had just been Corbyn and McDonnell on a banner, I don't think anyone would really care. Maybe a passing dismissive comment, not a big issue.

So true.

[Alan_X]

Contempt of court possibly?

If he had said something, you'd have probably criticised him for jeopardising the outcome of the inquests.

It wouldn't be contempt of court to mention the Hillsborough campaigners. Andy Burnham talked about his work on the campaign in support of his bid for the leadership.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/andy-burnham-i-hope-work-9526070.amp

[Billy Elliot]

If it had just been Corbyn and McDonnell on a banner, I don't think anyone would really care. Maybe a passing dismissive comment, not a big issue.

It was HJC who made the banner.  Up to HCJ who they put on their own banner.

[SP]

It was HJC who made the banner.  Up to HCJ who they put on their own banner.

Was it not from Roy Bentham, who could probably claim to speak for the Blacklist Support Group and possibly SoS?

[Billy Elliot]

Was it not from Roy Bentham, who could probably claim to speak for the Blacklist Support Group and possibly SoS?

"It went up - loads of people shook hands and took photos no one objected then it was taken down - meanwhile the internet goes into meltdown = this is the Modern World "  (Peter Hooton).

I'm not sure Roy Bentham was at the match but if he was then yes, he'd be involved.  It did have approval from HJC and quite a few of them were involved in getting it made, and into the ground.  As long as the families or survivors represented by HJC haven't objected I'm not sure why it's an issue. 

[classycarra]

"It went up - loads of people shook hands and took photos no one objected then it was taken down - meanwhile the internet goes into meltdown = this is the Modern World "  (Peter Hooton).

I'm not sure Roy Bentham was at the match but if he was then yes, he'd be involved.  It did have approval from HJC and quite a few of them were involved in getting it made, and into the ground.  As long as the families or survivors represented by HJC haven't objected I'm not sure why it's an issue. 

The issue has been made clear a number of times.

Who in the HJC approved it exactly? Can't find any approval, announcement, sharing/publicising (tacit or otherwise) on the official HJC twitter. With this making the national and local press, you'd expect it would be used as a chance to spread the HJC message (through links to articles and pictures etc, as they usually do) on twitter if they approved of it.

Or do you just mean that some people who support the HJC approve of it?

[Robinred]

It's an issue precisely and exactly because neither of the politicians featured had any involvement with the Hillsborough campaign, unlike the recently elected mayors of Liverpool and Manchester.

[classycarra]

It's an issue precisely and exactly because neither of the politicians featured had any involvement with the Hillsborough campaign, unlike the recently elected mayors of Liverpool and Manchester.

It says SuperWool075 (I think his name is Stephen) is online, so I guess he's looking into the approval the HJC gave to the banner

[Billy Elliot]

It's an issue precisely and exactly because neither of the politicians featured had any involvement with the Hillsborough campaign, unlike the recently elected mayors of Liverpool and Manchester.

Tell that to Becky Shah.

If Anna's on here ask her about it.  Phil (MIG on RAOTL - banned from here) knows Becky very well.

[classycarra]

Tell that to Becky Shah.

Are you referring to Becky visiting Parliament last year, seeing Abott, Corbyn and McDonnell?

[Billy Elliot]

Are you referring to Becky visiting Parliament last year, seeing Abott, Corbyn and McDonnell?

There's an 11 page thread about it on the RATTLE and some of the people on the thread have very close links to the families.  Fucked if you think I'm asking them exactly how they got approval.

[classycarra]

There's an 11 page thread about it on the RATTLE and some of the people on the thread have very close links to the families.  Fucked if you think I'm asking them exactly how they got approval.

Mate, you just told us to tell it to Becky Shah - but you haven't said what we're supposed to tell her. If you're going to use her name to make a point on here, at least tell us your point.

On that same note, you came in here to correct us that the HJC approved it, but as it turns out you made that up (they might very well have approved it, but you said that they definitely had, and it's now clear you don't know).

[J_Kopite]

roy bentham‏ @roybentham1  20h20 hours ago

Hats off to stewards and disabled section for their patience today.Our message here to Jez and John is we go again

[Billy Elliot]

Mate, you just told us to tell it to Becky Shah - but you haven't said what we're supposed to tell her. If you're going to use her name to make a point on here, at least tell us your point.

On that same note, you came in here to correct us that the HJC approved it, but as it turns out you made that up (they might very well have approved it, but you said that they definitely had, and it's now clear you don't know).

Have a look at Roy Bentham's twitter page.  There's a picture of it being held up outside the HJC shop.  I'm pretty sure that's Becky standing in the door way of the shop.

How would they get away with holding it up outside the HJC shop if the families had any objections?

I didn't make it up.  It was approved.  I said, you're fucked if you think I'm going to ask them how they went about getting it approved.

[J_Kopite]

Have a look at Roy Bentham's twitter page.  There's a picture of it being held up outside the HJC shop.  I'm pretty sure that's Becky standing in the door way of the shop.

How would they get away with holding it up outside the HJC shop if the families had any objections?

I didn't make it up.  It was approved.  I said, you're fucked if you think I'm going to ask them how they went about getting it approved.

To be fair:

https://twitter.com/Lou_Brookes_1/status/861191643222999041

[classycarra]

Have a look at Roy Bentham's twitter page.  There's a picture of it being held up outside the HJC shop.  I'm pretty sure that's Becky standing in the door way of the shop.

How would they get away with holding it up outside the HJC shop if the families had any objections?

I didn't make it up.  It was approved.  I said, you're fucked if you think I'm going to ask them how they went about getting it approved.

A representative of the Shah family holding up the banner, standing next to John McDonnell, does not necessarily equal the HJC organisation approving of the banner.

That picture doesn't appear on the HJC's twitter (from what I can see), and the HJC haven't shared any new pictures, articles or tweets about the banner from this weekend. I'll happily be corrected, or update this if the HJC twitter account updates things soon, but I assume this to mean the HJC haven't given approval to the banner.

In response to this:

It's an issue precisely and exactly because neither of the politicians featured had any involvement with the Hillsborough campaign, unlike the recently elected mayors of Liverpool and Manchester.

You told Robinred to ask Becky Shah. So is the only evidence of McDonnell's and/or Corbyn's involvement that he has been in touch with Becky in the past 12 months (i.e. after April 2016), since he became shadow chancellor?

He's been an MP since 97, and Corbyn since 83. That doesn't feel like much involvement in the campaign to me. I'd say that's involvement after the campaign, personally.

[Billy Elliot]

A representative of the Shah family holding up the banner, standing next to John McDonnell, does not necessarily equal the HJC organisation approving of the banner.

Is that not also Natalie Holmes also holding it?  Two of the families represented by HJC?  There's better people to ask than me how they made sure that all HJC families were consulted, but the fact that there's two HJC families actually holding the banner is enough for me to not make a big deal about it.

That picture doesn't appear on the HJC's twitter (from what I can see), and the HJC haven't shared any new pictures, articles or tweets about the banner from this weekend. I'll happily be corrected, or update this if the HJC twitter account updates things soon, but I assume this to mean the HJC haven't given approval to the banner.

They probably don't think it's a big enough deal to be arsed about it.  But tweet them if you're not sure.  If HJC are supporting other causes then it's up to them whether they publicise it or not.

In response to this:You told Robinred to ask Becky Shah. So is the only evidence of McDonnell's and/or Corbyn's involvement that he has been in touch with Becky in the past 12 months (i.e. after April 2016), since he became shadow chancellor?

He's been an MP since 97, and Corbyn since 83. That doesn't feel like much involvement in the campaign to me. I'd say that's involvement after the campaign, personally.

Fair enough.  As I said, tell her and question why she's now supporting him.

[classycarra]

Is that not also Natalie Holmes also holding it?  Two of the families represented by HJC?  There's better people to ask than me how they made sure that all HJC families were consulted, but the fact that there's two HJC families actually holding the banner is enough for me to not make a big deal about it.


They probably don't think it's a big enough deal to be arsed about it.  But tweet them if you're not sure.  If HJC are supporting other causes then it's up to them whether they publicise it or not.


Fair enough.  As I said, tell her and question why she's now supporting him.

You now seem more non-committal in your responses than you were when attempting to correct us earlier, and you want us to speak to others instead of you, so I guess that means this discussion is over now?

If anyone else is able to educate me and Robinred and others about Corbyn and McDonnell's involvement in the campaign for Justice, I would be very interested to hear.

[Peabee]

You now seem more non-committal in your responses than you were when attempting to correct us earlier, and you want us to speak to others instead of you, so I guess that means this discussion is over now?

If anyone else is able to educate me and Robinred and others about Corbyn and McDonnell's involvement in the campaign for Justice, I would be very interested to hear.

Neither Corbyn nor McDonnell were party to that banner.  Could you stop clogging up the thread with this discussion please?

[classycarra]

Neither Corbyn nor McDonnell were party to that banner.  Could you stop clogging up the thread with this discussion please?

McDonnell has praised it in the past few days, and been pictured with it previously.

It's a banner invoking the current Labour leadership, and associating them with the campaign for Justice. I feel this is an important matter to discuss, not least in a thread about the Labour party on a Liverpool supporter's site.

You're welcome to think otherwise, but it's not preventing any other discussions from taking place. Scroll past if you personally need to - don't think the thread needs you trying to shut down this particular discussion.

[Peabee]

McDonnell has praised it in the past few days, and been pictured with it previously.

It's a banner invoking the current Labour leadership, and associating them with the campaign for Justice. I feel this is an important matter to discuss, not least in a thread about the Labour party on a Liverpool supporter's site.

You're welcome to think otherwise, but it's not preventing any other discussions from taking place. Scroll past if you personally need to - don't think the thread needs you trying to shut down this particular discussion.

Apologies, I wasn't aware of this at all. 

[Billy Elliot]

You now seem more non-committal in your responses than you were when attempting to correct us earlier, and you want us to speak to others instead of you, so I guess that means this discussion is over now?

If anyone else is able to educate me and Robinred and others about Corbyn and McDonnell's involvement in the campaign for Justice, I would be very interested to hear.

It's got nothing to do with their involvement in the campaign for justice.

It's HJC showing their support for Labour and other causes of Social Justice, if that's what they want to do then it's up to them.

[classycarra]

Apologies, I wasn't aware of this at all. 

No need to apologise mate!

I know I've been going on a bit, but this is really important to me so I want to make sure I find out what I can.

[Yorkykopite]

It's got nothing to do with their involvement in the campaign for justice.

That's surely right. There were other pictures on the banner too referencing Orgreave and - I think - the Shrewsbury Two. These had no direct link with the Hillsborough campaigns either. I doubt very much anyone is claiming that Corbyn and McDonnell did anything at all for the Hillsborough cause. Likewise I think it's a bit unfair to keep on pointing to Corbyn carrying a copy of the Sun newspaper. He's a politician and he probably reads all the national papers. Perhaps it was careless of him to be holding it so prominently in public, but he probably had no idea at the time about its connection with Hillsborough. Why would he? He's a London MP who traditionally has been more interested in justice for the IRA and Hezbollah etc.

My gripe with the banner is that it seems so at odds with the Kop tradition - which is to honour achievers and those fighters for the club and city. These two, Corbyn and McDonnell, are pure nonentities. They have zero connection with LFC. In a few years time people won't even know who they were.

[Billy Elliot]

My gripe with the banner is that it seems so at odds with the Kop tradition - which is to honour achievers and those fighters for the club and city. These two, Corbyn and McDonnell, are pure nonentities. They have zero connection with LFC. In a few years time people won't even know who they were.

That's your opinion and I haven't got an argument against it.  All I was showing is that it is a HJC banner.  It's not as if Roy Bentham stuck the logo on to try to make connections and gain emotional support.  HJC are promoting his causes and as far as I'm concerned that's up to HJC.

Whether people like Corbyn or not people from Liverpool are showing support for Labour, that's nothing new.  In fact there was a poll on the Echo website and 70 odd per cent approved of the banner.

Some people on here though have blown it completely out of proportion.  It wasn't exactly a Munich banner (which as you know, was at one time a Kop tradition).

[Yorkykopite]

It wasn't exactly a Munich banner (which as you know, was at one time a Kop tradition).

I wouldn't go that far. Some misguided souls liked to taunt Man Utd with Munich banners at big away games like Heysel etc - Hillsborough cured them of that of course - but I never saw Munich flags on the Kop.