Topic: The Labour Party (*)

[TepidT2O]

It's utterly mental the faux outrage and outright lies posted about those photos. What's even more depressing is the people who should be on our side going along with it. George Durack, the veteran next to him, has called it "absolute nonsense"

It is indeed crazy...

[killer-heels]

You cannot win on the centre ground it seems now. What a turn for the books that was.

Still maintain that if Labour ditch the idea of retaining Freedom of Movement and cutting Immigration, then they may now make some big traction in this crazy world.

[Beard]

Labour are dangerously close to being a party that will never be in power again. Traditional Labour voters are leaving for UKIP and UKIP smell blood, they will be pushing themselves a lot more in the north in tye coming years. And if Brexit doesn't end up happening I dread to think that they could realistically be part of a coalition government or even the opposition.

We are living in an increasingly right leaning world and that scares me.

[oldfordie]

You cannot win on the centre ground it seems now. What a turn for the books that was.

Still maintain that if Labour ditch the idea of retaining Freedom of Movement and cutting Immigration, then they may now make some big traction in this crazy world.

Why. wouldn't they be agreeing with Tory policy. it would mean that Labour take no credit if Brexit works yet they will judged as just as bad as the Torys if it all goes wrong as they agreed with their policy on Brexit.
We can't ask the question of retaining or stopping freedom of movement in isolation. the question is are voters willing to pay the price for it. there is no majority for a hard Brexit.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Labour are dangerously close to being a party that will never be in power again. Traditional Labour voters are leaving for UKIP and UKIP smell blood, they will be pushing themselves a lot more in the north in tye coming years. And if Brexit doesn't end up happening I dread to think that they could realistically be part of a coalition government or even the opposition.

We are living in an increasingly right leaning world and that scares me.

ukip are fucked financially so doubt they'll be as much of a threat

[Beard]

ukip are fucked financially so doubt they'll be as much of a threat

They will get donations. Their membership will rise. Let's not get caught up in the idea that they won't be a threat. They almost certainly will be.

[filopastry]

Plus you also have the prospect of Arron Banks bankrolling a new populist anti-establishment party as well

[KiNki]

Plus you also have the prospect of Arron Banks bankrolling a new populist anti-establishment party as well

if he does it will confuse the ukip voters and if ukip goes, will it's voters, white, working class males, vote for the new populist anti establishment party, tory, lib dem, labour?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Plus you also have the prospect of Arron Banks bankrolling a new populist anti-establishment party as well

thought he was more after a right wing momentum?

[killer-heels]

Why. wouldn't they be agreeing with Tory policy. it would mean that Labour take no credit if Brexit works yet they will judged as just as bad as the Torys if it all goes wrong as they agreed with their policy on Brexit.
We can't ask the question of retaining or stopping freedom of movement in isolation. the question is are voters willing to pay the price for it. there is no majority for a hard Brexit.

Immigration is one of the key issues around Europe, the States and Britain. There is a fear of it and the electorate wants to end it. Lots of Labour voters would need to see their lives improve before we can sell immigration again. If Labour ignore the wishes of many around immigration then they risk further issues.

[filopastry]

thought he was more after a right wing momentum?

Was reading today that he supposedly wants to have some candidates running for parliament in 2020.

Proposing term limits for MPs, abolishing the House of Lords, etc. the sort of anti-political establishment stuff that could actually get some support amongst the disillusioned

[oldfordie]

Immigration is one of the key issues around Europe, the States and Britain. There is a fear of it and the electorate wants to end it. Lots of Labour voters would need to see their lives improve before we can sell immigration again. If Labour ignore the wishes of many around immigration then they risk further issues.

Theres a lot of people stating facts based on that election result that are totally inaccurate. I can understand the hard Brexit voters agreeing, I can't understand stay voters going along with them though.
We have been through all the reasons why people voted out so no reason do that to prove my point.
fact is 52% of people voted to leave the EU for many reasons, am sure there are people who voted to leave based only on stopping freedom of movement at any cost but I honestly think the facts show there is nowhere near 50% that are prepared to pay this price.
So the question is does stopping freedom of movement at a cost of leaving the single market and all it's repercussions have the support of the electorate. absolutely not. so why are Labour frightened to take a stand on the issue. it doesn't matter if they stop them or not, they have distanced themselves from the Torys triggering article 50 without convincing parliament they have a plan.
Of course there will be protests but they don't win referendums or GE. they will claim Labour have no respect for voters wishes, that is rubbish, Labour wouldn't be saying we are ignoring the vote they would be saying we want to scrutinize the Tory Brexit so the Torys carry out the wishes of the British people not the Tory party wishes.
This really is loose loose for Labour right now, no praise if the Torys get it right and a lot of abuse if the Torys get it wrong for not challenging the Torys on Brexit before they allowed them to trigger article 50. I think that is a massive mistake by Labour. they are going to take a lot of s.. when this goes wrong for standing by and not holding the Torys to account.
Agree with the Torys and vote to trigger article 50 and the clock starts running, Labour have no control,they will deserve the abuse they will get if this goes wrong for walking hand in and with the Torys on Brexit.

[ShakaHislop]

More people (45% to 39%) would prioritise single market access over immigration control. The split among Labour supporters is 58% to 28% respectively.

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3795/Public-divided-on-prioritising-access-to-the-Single-Market-or-controlling-immigration.aspx

[oldfordie]

More people (45% to 39%) would prioritise single market access over immigration control. The split among Labour supporters is 58% to 28% respectively.

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3795/Public-divided-on-prioritising-access-to-the-Single-Market-or-controlling-immigration.aspx

The polls will back this up and the referendum result leaves no doubt, are they really arguing 50.1 % of the electorate voted to take us out of the EU to stop freedom of movement at any cost and the other 1.9% voted for other reasons. am not having it. it's the biggest lie of all.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Was reading today that he supposedly wants to have some candidates running for parliament in 2020.

Proposing term limits for MPs, abolishing the House of Lords, etc. the sort of anti-political establishment stuff that could actually get some support amongst the disillusioned

is he likely to get anywhere near enough MPs to kick up a fuss, after all UKIP have one MP (a Tory defector) and whilst they got a large chunk of the vote how many of them were protest votes in solid labour areas like Sunderland

Not to mention if UKIP are still around surely there's some vote cannibalisation there?

[redmark]

The priorities of my local branch are pretty clear anyway, 3 motions up for debate at the next meeting.

One is Brexit related (the importance of retaining tariff free access to the single market and to maintain freedom of movement), the other 2 are, to request mandatory reselection of all MPs, and to reinstate Jackie Walker into the party.

My local branch priorities are dog shit bins and cycle paths .

[filopastry]

is he likely to get anywhere near enough MPs to kick up a fuss, after all UKIP have one MP (a Tory defector) and whilst they got a large chunk of the vote how many of them were protest votes in solid labour areas like Sunderland

Not to mention if UKIP are still around surely there's some vote cannibalisation there?

I suppose the question is what is his ultimate objective.

In the case of UKIP they didn't need significant numbers of parliamentary seats to achieve their goals, just get the support of enough people to get some leverage and you can use that selectively.

Would the Tories have offered a referendum at the last election without pressure from UKIP, and to be honest would the Tories have won the last election without picking up the votes of UKIP supporters in marginals who wanted a referendum.

[Redman0151]

John McDonnell backs Brexit. Says those trying to block or delay it are "on the side of certain corporate elites"

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/15/john-mcdonnell-backs-brexit-enormous-opportunity-britain

McDonnell is an utter clown, no idea how he has such a senior position

[Circa1892]

McDonnell is an utter clown, no idea how he has such a senior position

He's scum, and the main reason many of us have left the Party.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

McDonnell is an utter clown, no idea how he has such a senior position

considering who his boss is and the likes of Abbott and Thornberry have senior positions it's pretty much par for the course

[Redman0151]

He's scum, and the main reason many of us have left the Party.

I just don't get his angle, surely he understands the consequences of an authoritarian Tory government without any EU stopping them going too far in certain directions.

He'll be snug in his London home, but he should remember what the EU has done for the place he was born, Merseyside, and how important that is.

[zero zero]

John McDonnell backs Brexit. Says those trying to block or delay it are "on the side of certain corporate elites"

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/15/john-mcdonnell-backs-brexit-enormous-opportunity-britain

"Fuck you!" to the 63% of Labour voters that voted Remain, then.

[oldfordie]

John McDonnell backs Brexit. Says those trying to block or delay it are "on the side of certain corporate elites"

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/15/john-mcdonnell-backs-brexit-enormous-opportunity-britain

McDonnell is an utter clown, no idea how he has such a senior position

The Labour leadership backed Tory policy. that's the way this will be seen in yrs to come.

[Zeb]

John McDonnell backs Brexit. Says those trying to block or delay it are "on the side of certain corporate elites"

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/15/john-mcdonnell-backs-brexit-enormous-opportunity-britain

McDonnell is an utter clown, no idea how he has such a senior position

And this is why the best hope for Labour right now is to have the bar set high enough that Corbyn and co. can't nod through Brexit.

I do hope some of their more recent supporters are taking in just how far removed their leaders are from a desire not to leave the EU.

[MOZ]

Lots of Labour voters would need to see their lives improve before we can sell immigration again.

Not having this at all. This is how xenophobia has become legitimised.

Immigration should not have to be sold. What needs to be sold, is the fact that immigration is not the cause of all their problems.

By suggesting otherwise, it will never be tolerated, because any improvement in their lifestyle would be attributed to the removal of foreigners or the end of free movement.

This is the road that the new right-wing rhetoric has taken us down. We are now pandering to the illusion they have created.

This (as in the USA) is about the rise of racism, xenophobia, mysogyny and intolerance, and the erosion of human rights and social rights and how people are going to start fighting against it.

[killer-heels]

Not having this at all. This is how xenophobia has become legitimised.

Immigration should not have to be sold. What needs to be sold, is the fact that immigration is not the cause of all their problems.

By suggesting otherwise, it will never be tolerated, because any improvement in their lifestyle would be attributed to the removal of foreigners or the end of free movement.

This is the road that the new right-wing rhetoric has taken us down. We are now pandering to the illusion they have created.

This (as in the USA) is about the rise of racism, xenophobia, mysogyny and intolerance, and the erosion of human rights and social rights and how people are going to start fighting against it.

At the end of the day the job of politicians is to make sure society works for its people. Labour wont win on a bed of freedom of movement and no matter what ideological stance people have right now will change that. They can stand on it, but they will lose elections and the right wingers will take power time and time again.

No party can stop immigration. It would be one of the biggest acts of economic self sabotage ever. But its one of the big ticket issues and i am afraid the most important thing is to win elections, put into effect things which will benefit everyone who lives here and remove any resentment thats built up due to an unbalancing of the economy.

[Tomo!]

Not having this at all. This is how xenophobia has become legitimised.

Immigration should not have to be sold. What needs to be sold, is the fact that immigration is not the cause of all their problems.

By suggesting otherwise, it will never be tolerated, because any improvement in their lifestyle would be attributed to the removal of foreigners or the end of free movement.

This is the road that the new right-wing rhetoric has taken us down. We are now pandering to the illusion they have created.

This (as in the USA) is about the rise of racism, xenophobia, mysogyny and intolerance, and the erosion of human rights and social rights and how people are going to start fighting against it.

I posted this in another thread, think it's relevant

Investment needs to be focused on the communities that have the most exposure to immigration.

The area where I grew up would be considered the rough part of town, I've since moved but have family and often visit.
It has a very high ethnic and economic migrant population and if you go down the main drag there's hardly any empty shops as the street's absolutely buzzing with life.

Thing is the area's a complete fucking shit hole despite what must be a fairly healthy local economy, there's fuck all investment in anything from holes in the roads, local services, nothing.
Kids who may not of had the best start in life need training programs, there competing in the jobs market for low skilled jobs against people with degrees.

There's a section of society who are constantly told of the benefits of immigration but for me don't reap the rewards relative to the changes its had for there communities and employment, the global economy is leaving them behind and labour needs these people back on board.

[Yorkykopite]

John McDonnell backs Brexit. Says those trying to block or delay it are "on the side of certain corporate elites"

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/15/john-mcdonnell-backs-brexit-enormous-opportunity-britain

McDonnell is an utter clown, no idea how he has such a senior position

This week's line.

I wonder what next week will bring for this unprincipled trimmer?

[MOZ]

At the end of the day the job of politicians is to make sure society works for its people. Labour wont win on a bed of freedom of movement and no matter what ideological stance people have right now will change that. They can stand on it, but they will lose elections and the right wingers will take power time and time again.

No party can stop immigration. It would be one of the biggest acts of economic self sabotage ever. But its one of the big ticket issues and i am afraid the most important thing is to win elections, put into effect things which will benefit everyone who lives here and remove any resentment thats built up due to an unbalancing of the economy.

Freedom of movement is an issue because the narrative of the referendum has legitimised it.

Before the vote, the leave voters were trying convince us all it was not about immigration. Now suddenly it is all about immigration.

48% of the country (and probably more now) were happy with freedom of movement. Who is speaking for them?

Labour should be fighting for a brexit plan that causes the least damage to the country (even if that means keeping freedom of movement).

Nowhere on the ballot paper did it say: do you want to leave the single market? Do you want to end freedom of movement? People were talking about Norwegian models, Swiss models etc.

We have allowed the rhetoric to be led and changed by the right wing media. Who is going to fight back?

(sorry, really pissed off about this)

[oldfordie]

And this is why the best hope for Labour right now is to have the bar set high enough that Corbyn and co. can't nod through Brexit.

I do hope some of their more recent supporters are taking in just how far removed their leaders are from a desire not to leave the EU.

Don't give up hope yet Zeb, Hopefully there will be a lot of Tory rebels who will come to the defense of the working class and refuse to trigger article 50.

[TepidT2O]

Don't give up hope yet Zeb, Hopefully there will be a lot of Tory rebels who will come to the defense of the working class and refuse to trigger article 50.

Don't hold your breath

[oldfordie]

Don't hold your breath

Am taking deep breaths right now Ken.

[Alan_X]

I just don't get his angle, surely he understands the consequences of an authoritarian Tory government without any EU stopping them going too far in certain directions.

He'll be snug in his London home, but he should remember what the EU has done for the place he was born, Merseyside, and how important that is.

He backs it because the great struggle against the global elite is more important to him than the lives of normal voters, and anyway he's hoping for the cataclysmic event that will kick off the revolution. He's a prick.

[killer-heels]

Freedom of movement is an issue because the narrative of the referendum has legitimised it.

Before the vote, the leave voters were trying convince us all it was not about immigration. Now suddenly it is all about immigration.

48% of the country (and probably more now) were happy with freedom of movement. Who is speaking for them?

Labour should be fighting for a brexit plan that causes the least damage to the country (even if that means keeping freedom of movement).

Nowhere on the ballot paper did it say: do you want to leave the single market? Do you want to end freedom of movement? People were talking about Norwegian models, Swiss models etc.

We have allowed the rhetoric to be led and changed by the right wing media. Who is going to fight back?

(sorry, really pissed off about this)

The 48% may have had people who were against freedom of movement but who valued the economy more. Likewise some of the 52% might have no issues against immigration but they may have been more concerned about law making. Its not at all clear bar some polls about the 2 groups. Still 1/3rd of the electorate want controls and limits on migration ahead of the single market. As barmy as that sounds, its still a large proportion of the electorate.

What is clear though is that immigration is one of the top issues, along with jobs, security and housing. Labour is seen as weak on defence and thanks to the financial crisis its still seen as poor on the economy. If you just bat away immigration concerns, you are basically asking for an ass kicking.

The only hope for Labour is to either campaign on the platform of reforming certain things like immigration or that they run on some populist alternative and hope and pray that something connects because as it stands they are out of touch on all of the most important worries of the electorate.

[ShakaHislop]

Stephen Kinnock is on the same page as McDonnell RE: Brexit.

https://labourlist.org/2016/11/stephen-kinnock-veto-threats-on-article-50-are-misguided-and-toxic

I despair.

[killer-heels]

Stephen Kinnock is on the same page as McDonnell RE: Brexit.

https://labourlist.org/2016/11/stephen-kinnock-veto-threats-on-article-50-are-misguided-and-toxic

I despair.

Labour doesnt have a choice.

[TheShanklyGates]

Labour doesnt have a choice.

Didn't something like 65% of Labour voters back remain? They've probably lost my vote over their stance on Brexit.

[MOZ]

The 48% may have had people who were against freedom of movement but who valued the economy more. Likewise some of the 52% might have no issues against immigration but they may have been more concerned about law making. Its not at all clear bar some polls about the 2 groups. Still 1/3rd of the electorate want controls and limits on migration ahead of the single market. As barmy as that sounds, its still a large proportion of the electorate.

What is clear though is that immigration is one of the top issues, along with jobs, security and housing. Labour is seen as weak on defence and thanks to the financial crisis its still seen as poor on the economy. If you just bat away immigration concerns, you are basically asking for an ass kicking.

The only hope for Labour is to either campaign on the platform of reforming certain things like immigration or that they run on some populist alternative and hope and pray that something connects because as it stands they are out of touch on all of the most important worries of the electorate.

I dont want to bat away immigration concerns, I want to fight against the rhetoric that has caused people like you to now label it as a "concern."

The right are winning the war of legitimising xenophobia and every time we accept their concerns we move a little closer to even more dangerous ground. The Tories, UKIP and the right wing press are radicalising the public and there is no one willing to stand up to it.

Labour are doing exactly what you want them to do, which is to echo the Tory line on Brexit, when they should be fighting against this march towards intolerance and layng down a vision of the future that appeals to more than just the anti-immigration mob.

[zero zero]

Labour doesnt have a choice.

Their only choice is to be in line with the Tories and UKIP?

I thought Corbyn and McDonnel were serving up a new kind of politics.

[Zeb]

Don't give up hope yet Zeb, Hopefully there will be a lot of Tory rebels who will come to the defense of the working class and refuse to trigger article 50.

I'm sure they can discuss the impact of moral authority upon a group of loons with Jeremy and John as they all head into the aye lobby with May and Gove.