Author Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*) (Read 869712 times)

Dr. Beaker · « **Reply #80 on:** October 11, 2016, 11:34:21 pm »

The day the government reveals it's 'plan' is going to be an interesting day for the tory party.

Trada · « **Reply #81 on:** October 12, 2016, 12:03:21 am »

Its around 170 days to article 50 is "Invoked" so Labour have given the Tories 170 questions to answer about Brexsit 1 for each day.

Imagine being given the job of writing out that list of questions.

hide5seek · « **Reply #82 on:** October 12, 2016, 06:36:43 am »

Quote from: Trada on October 12, 2016, 12:03:21 am

Its around 170 days to article 50 is "Invoked" so Labour have given the Tories 170 questions to answer about Brexsit 1 for each day.

Imagine being given the job of writing out that list of questions.

Where did you read this?

TepidT2O · « **Reply #83 on:** October 12, 2016, 07:29:43 am »

News night reported that minister would be happy to pay up to half of our current EU funding for access to trade deals..

What's that? £7.5bn???

That's without the rebate of course. Paying more for less! It's like Everton are running the country.

TepidT2O · « **Reply #84 on:** October 12, 2016, 07:30:31 am »

Quote from: hide5seek on October 12, 2016, 06:36:43 am

Where did you read this?

The government have said they will invoke article 50 in march (or thereabouts).

Trada · « **Reply #85 on:** October 12, 2016, 08:30:08 am »

Quote from: hide5seek on October 12, 2016, 06:36:43 am

Where did you read this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37622928

Trada · « **Reply #86 on:** October 12, 2016, 08:45:54 am »

I started to feel sorry for the caller as he was slowly taken apart.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/A-NEBerVRo0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/A-NEBerVRo0</a>

west_london_red · « **Reply #87 on:** October 12, 2016, 09:12:25 am »

Quote from: Kinky Kenneth on October 12, 2016, 07:29:43 am

News night reported that minister would be happy to pay up to half of our current EU funding for access to trade deals..

What's that? £7.5bn???

That's without the rebate of course. Paying more for less! It's like Everton are running the country.

If the offer was paying £7 Billion, but access to the single market with no freedom of movement I would say that the government should bite the EUs hand off. Yes, we're still paying into the EU budget but £7 billion pales into insignificance compared to damage to the economy if we leave the single market, and the end of freedom of movement keeps those that voted for Brexit happy. Not that I can actually see such a generous offer being offered by the EU mind.

G1 Jockey 4(betfair) · « **Reply #88 on:** October 12, 2016, 09:35:32 am »

the eu would need to keep their current rules intact for full members though.

dont see how offering less would be accepted?

offer more than what we already pay and maybe it would act as a deterrent for any member wishing to leave but still have free tarrifs.

norway and swizerland pay into the eu....paying less would surely make them want to pay less for a similar deal.

i highly doubt that a goer.

who ever is dreaming up there ideas needs to get a reality check.

it reeks of desperation

killer-heels · « **Reply #89 on:** October 12, 2016, 10:07:19 am »

It was an idea that was floated but it would have to be higher and/or have a raft of concessions on top of it to even have a chance.

filopastry · « **Reply #90 on:** October 12, 2016, 10:11:11 am »

Quote from: killer_heels on October 12, 2016, 10:07:19 am

It was an idea that was floated but it would have to be higher and/or have a raft of concessions on top of it to even have a chance.

I doubt we will see many serious proposals/concessions from either side for a fair while, just posturing at the moment.

I doubt the EU is in any rush to offer anything to be honest, time is not on the UK's side.

oldfordie · « **Reply #91 on:** October 12, 2016, 11:04:31 am »

Quote from: G1 Jockey 4(betfair) on October 12, 2016, 09:35:32 am

the eu would need to keep their current rules intact for full members though.

dont see how offering less would be accepted?

offer more than what we already pay and maybe it would act as a deterrent for any member wishing to leave but still have free tarrifs.

norway and swizerland pay into the eu....paying less would surely make them want to pay less for a similar deal.

i highly doubt that a goer.

who ever is dreaming up there ideas needs to get a reality check.

it reeks of desperation

It does reek of desperation as it's ignoring the biggest problem, freedom of movement.
We could offer double what we pay now and the EU would still not give us access to the single market unless we allow freedom of movement.

Yorkykopite · « **Reply #92 on:** October 12, 2016, 11:16:32 am »

This is very good.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/hard-brexit-theresa-may-by-jacek-rostowski-2016-10

Dr. Beaker · « **Reply #93 on:** October 12, 2016, 11:41:24 am »

Quote from: Yorkykopite on October 12, 2016, 11:16:32 am

This is very good.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/hard-brexit-theresa-may-by-jacek-rostowski-2016-10

Yeah, pretty much sums up the situation quite succinctly.

Do you reckon Labour should bite the bullet, putting aside for the moment the anti-Corbyn slagging opportunity, (even though in the short term it would cost them even more support) and go full-on in Remain mode? Or is that their plan for after the tory hand has been revealed?

redbyrdz · « **Reply #94 on:** October 12, 2016, 11:43:18 am »

The EU, and especially the single market, is build on the 'four freedoms'

1. Free movement of goods
2. Fredom of movement for workers
3. Right of establishment and freedom to provide services
4. Free movement of capital

All four are necessary for the single market to work. The EU can't, and won't compromise on any of them.

Pretenting it can be done just shows that the government has absolutely no understanding of how what the EU is and how it works.

Yorkykopite · « **Reply #95 on:** October 12, 2016, 12:09:27 pm »

Quote from: Dr. Beaker on October 12, 2016, 11:41:24 am

Yeah, pretty much sums up the situation quite succinctly.

Do you reckon Labour should bite the bullet, putting aside for the moment the anti-Corbyn slagging opportunity, (even though in the short term it would cost them even more support) and go full-on in Remain mode? Or is that their plan for after the tory hand has been revealed?

Yes, I do. It's the right thing to do and it's the pragmatic thing to do. Anyone who doubts the second point need only compare Labour's present popularity (around 24 per cent and falling) with Remain's popularity (48 per cent and rising). History rarely lets you be right and popular.

west_london_red · « **Reply #96 on:** October 12, 2016, 12:22:39 pm »

Quote from: Yorkykopite on October 12, 2016, 12:09:27 pm

Yes, I do. It's the right thing to do and it's the pragmatic thing to do. Anyone who doubts the second point need only compare Labour's present popularity (around 24 per cent and falling) with Remain's popularity (48 per cent and rising). History rarely lets you be right and popular.

I think its got to be more nuanced then that - Rather then full on Remain campaign for Single Market access specifically at all costs. That way you appeal to the Remainers, some of the Leavers who still want to stay in the Single Market, Trade Unions and business leaders.

Yorkykopite · « **Reply #97 on:** October 12, 2016, 12:28:14 pm »

Quote from: west_london_red on October 12, 2016, 12:22:39 pm

I think its got to be more nuanced then that - Rather then full on Remain campaign for Single Market access specifically at all costs. That way you appeal to the Remainers, some of the Leavers who still want to stay in the Single Market, Trade Unions and business leaders.

Of course it has to be more nuanced. Mine was a one-sentence reply. Labour will need to work a bit harder.

Dr. Beaker · « **Reply #98 on:** October 12, 2016, 12:34:03 pm »

I suppose there is a case for treading lightly until the probable deal in all it's shiteness is revealed - it would then look like a real world decision rather than some left wing airy-fairy ideological decision, and the opinion polls would no doubt show that Labour was not 'failing to listen to the people'.

It's a bit like when there's a nice piece of pie left between two of you, and you say 'You cut, I'll choose', - the chooser can't lose.

Yorkykopite · « **Reply #99 on:** October 12, 2016, 12:40:07 pm »

Quote from: Dr. Beaker on October 12, 2016, 12:34:03 pm

I suppose there is a case for treading lightly until the probable deal in all it's shiteness is revealed - it would then look like a real world decision rather than some left wing airy-fairy ideological decision, and the opinion polls would no doubt show that Labour was not 'failing to listen to the people'.

It's a bit like when there's a nice piece of pie left between two of you, and you say 'You cut, I'll choose', - the chooser can't lose.

Perhaps, although there's an equal case for getting in early and keeping the pressure on that strange coalition inside the House of Commons that is mistakingly called the Conservative 'party'. More than that the Labour party should expose the fallacy that there is a "will of the people" or - indeed - that the Referendum vote reveals some 'Triumph of the Will'.

mkingdon · « **Reply #100 on:** October 12, 2016, 12:57:06 pm »

Quote from: Trada on October 12, 2016, 08:45:54 am

I started to feel sorry for the caller as he was slowly taken apart.

That's quite tragic and I suspect representative of a lot of leavers (not all of course) who voted on sentiment and some sort of misplaced sense of patriotism. The wish to send "a message " to "the establishment" regardless of what it actually meant.....and it has created such a fecking mess.

Reminds me of a guy I saw interviewed on results day saying he voted leave as he was sick of all these "muslims n that, coming here from Syria n that" and thought leaving the EU would stop that.

Sometimes I think there should be a qualification test to demonstrate you grasp some basic concepts before you get the vote.

Dr. Beaker · « **Reply #101 on:** October 12, 2016, 01:02:17 pm »

I'm shit at chess, but there is always a 'best move' there if you can study it long enough. It looks like a tremendous opportunity here but there is a fine line to tread. Sorting out the best course of action isn't easy is it. Who do we have who can come up with the master plan? We don't seem to have the services of any dodgy bastards who are well versed in the dark arts anymore. Come back Mandy all is forgiven.

Yorkykopite · « **Reply #102 on:** October 12, 2016, 01:06:23 pm »

Quote from: Dr. Beaker on October 12, 2016, 01:02:17 pm

I'm shit at chess, but there is always a 'best move' there if you can study it long enough. It looks like a tremendous opportunity here but there is a fine line to tread. Sorting out the best course of action isn't easy is it. Who do we have who can come up with the master plan? We don't seem to have the services of any dodgy bastards who are well versed in the dark arts anymore. Come back Mandy all is forgiven.

If it were chess, then the government Brexiteers would be said to be facing a Zugzwang move. Every possible option is worse than doing nothing and yet doing nothing is not allowed.

Andy82lfc · « **Reply #103 on:** October 12, 2016, 01:27:55 pm »

Quote from: Trada on October 12, 2016, 08:45:54 am

I started to feel sorry for the caller as he was slowly taken apart.

Pretty much exactly how almost every conversation with a brexiter has gone when i've discussed it with them. Then just as you've pulled down every ridiculous argument they still stand shaking there head.

Quote from: mkingdon on October 12, 2016, 12:57:06 pm

Sometimes I think there should be a qualification test to demonstrate you grasp some basic concepts before you get the vote.

Said this for years, feel bad that it's really condescending, but at least it would stop people voting via protest or ignorance. Doesn't even have to be complicated either, 'name one law the EU has passed to the UK.' would have done for about 50% of brexiters, just like the guy was asked in the video.

oldfordie · « **Reply #104 on:** October 12, 2016, 01:49:26 pm »

Quote from: Andy82lfc on October 12, 2016, 01:27:55 pm

Pretty much exactly how almost every conversation with a brexiter has gone when i've discussed it with them. Then just as you've pulled down every ridiculous argument they still stand shaking there head.

Said this for years, feel bad that it's really condescending, but at least it would stop people voting via protest or ignorance. Doesn't even have to be complicated either, 'name one law the EU has passed to the UK.' would have done for about 50% of brexiters, just like the guy was asked in the video.

Theres no perfect democracy, one woman from Wakefield voted leave because she thought everyone was nice before we joined the EU, she obviously feels leaving will make everyone nice again. it's views like this that make you think there should be some sort of intelligence test to see if the person has a basic grasp on the issue there voting on. am afraid we have to keep reminding ourselves that this would be very dangerous. it's a slippery slope into Facism. it's the price we have to pay for living in a free democracy.

thisyearisouryear · « **Reply #105 on:** October 12, 2016, 02:00:21 pm »

Quote from: mkingdon on October 12, 2016, 12:57:06 pm

Sometimes I think there should be a qualification test to demonstrate you grasp some basic concepts before you get the vote.

I think that a lot too! This is the one flaw of democracy in my opinion - put simply, the assumption that everyone is equally capable of choosing the right candidate.

MOZ · « **Reply #106 on:** October 12, 2016, 02:13:00 pm »

Quote from: Sharado on October 12, 2016, 02:06:08 pm

Not sure if this is the right thread, or indeed if anywhere is the right thread, but I thought corybn did well at PMQ's today pushing her on this.

Corbyn should autocorrect to "He who shall not be named."

Dr. Beaker · « **Reply #107 on:** October 12, 2016, 02:13:53 pm »

Quote from: Sharado on October 12, 2016, 02:06:08 pm

Not sure if this is the right thread, or indeed if anywhere is the right thread, but I thought corybn did well at PMQ's today pushing her on this.

He did. He looked like a different animal today, even Norman Smith seemed to sense a bit of a sea change, and that Brexit was actually being used as a big stick to beat the tories with - we wait with baited breath.

Zeb · « **Reply #108 on:** October 12, 2016, 02:30:29 pm »

Quote from: Sharado on October 12, 2016, 02:06:08 pm

Not sure if this is the right thread, or indeed if anywhere is the right thread, but I thought corybn did well at PMQ's today pushing her on this.

Yeah, Corbyn did well again today. Keir Starmer too. It's a very low bar to expect this to happen, but glad it's at least happening now all the same.

Bunter · « **Reply #109 on:** October 12, 2016, 02:30:57 pm »

The foot now needs pressing down onto their throats while momentum is high and they're on the ropes, Corbyn seemed feistier today and seems people are singing from the same hymn sheet, helps that some Tories are turning the screw on the witch aswell.

Yorkykopite · « **Reply #110 on:** October 12, 2016, 02:35:12 pm »

Quote from: thisyearisouryear on October 12, 2016, 02:00:21 pm

I think that a lot too! This is the one flaw of democracy in my opinion - put simply, the assumption that everyone is equally capable of choosing the right candidate.

Maybe like the 'Understanding Test' that the southern states used to impose in the time of segregation? Or maybe take the vote away from those lacking a certain property qualification, as used to happen in Great Britain, so that the franchise is limited to those who have comfort and security (and presumably education) enough to be able to consider politics impartially?

Andy82lfc · « **Reply #111 on:** October 12, 2016, 03:13:33 pm »

Quote from: Yorkykopite on October 12, 2016, 02:35:12 pm

Maybe like the 'Understanding Test' that the southern states used to impose in the time of segregation? Or maybe take the vote away from those lacking a certain property qualification, as used to happen in Great Britain, so that the franchise is limited to those who have comfort and security (and presumably education) enough to be able to consider politics impartially?

Nothing like the Louisiana tests of course, but very basic political entry questions given to everyone. However, I do understand the wider point you and oldfordie are making.

Yorkykopite · « **Reply #112 on:** October 12, 2016, 03:23:51 pm »

Quote from: Andy82lfc on October 12, 2016, 03:13:33 pm

Nothing like the Louisiana tests of course, but very basic political entry questions given to everyone. However, I do understand the wider point you and oldfordie are making.

It's frustrating of course when emotion seems to get the better of reason at the polls or when outright lies exert their dominion over actual facts. But, yes, the alternative to a free election (ie a circumscribed one where only the 'intelligent' vote) is the royal road to despotism.

oldfordie · « **Reply #113 on:** October 12, 2016, 03:50:52 pm »

Quote from: Andy82lfc on October 12, 2016, 03:13:33 pm

Nothing like the Louisiana tests of course, but very basic political entry questions given to everyone. However, I do understand the wider point you and oldfordie are making.

To be honest. I have to keep reminding myself of this. some of the reasons given to leave were gob smacking. absolutely nothing to do with the EU. We spend months reading up on all the facts and your vote is wiped out by somebody who hasn't spent 5 min looking at the facts. as someone else mentioned people voting to leave to keep out the Muslims from Syria etc,someone said that to me as well.
The blame rests on the Torys. idiots for calling a referendum. idiots for not having a get out clause in the question put to voters. all we saw the day after the vote was Tory MPs faces white with shock. the stupid realty of what they had done had finally hit home.

saoirse08 · « **Reply #114 on:** October 12, 2016, 03:51:18 pm »

Feels like over the last few weeks - indeed ever since the Crack Brexit Team was assembled and began opening their respective gobs - as if the government is attempting to play poker with its cards completely exposed to all the other players around the table. To be fair, though, and in its defence, anybody asking questions of the Crack Brexit Team is obviously, and quite willfully, trying to undermine the Crack Brexit Team's negotiation position prior to the negotiations actually taking place.

I, for one, believe in the Crack Brexit Team and put my trust in its collective wits.

gazzalfc · « **Reply #115 on:** October 12, 2016, 03:52:49 pm »

Quote from: Trada on October 12, 2016, 08:45:54 am

I started to feel sorry for the caller as he was slowly taken apart.

That video is by far the most powerful to date to show just how that 52% are now feeling.

It's a little scary that when called out properly with facts and no agenda, that people always seem to end up back to immigration.

'But Brexit wasn't down to immigration. I have no problem with immigration'

But you haven't told me 1 single reason, 1 law or one part of being in the EU that you would take away to make the UK better?

'Err Err. Its them damn immigrants'

Scary country

Dr. Beaker · « **Reply #116 on:** October 12, 2016, 04:04:50 pm »

Quote from: saoirse08 on October 12, 2016, 03:51:18 pm

I, for one, believe in the Crack Brexit Team and put my trust in its collective wits.

You just failed the electoral intelligence test - no more voting for you me lad.

saoirse08 · « **Reply #117 on:** October 12, 2016, 04:08:18 pm »

Quote from: Dr. Beaker on October 12, 2016, 04:04:50 pm

You just failed the electoral intelligence test - no more voting for you me lad.

ha,ha!

Not bothered anyway, after they finish their negotiations, they'll be nothing left to vote for.

TepidT2O · « **Reply #118 on:** October 12, 2016, 07:58:33 pm »

David Davies is doing a sterling job

Lush is the best medicine... · « **Reply #119 on:** October 12, 2016, 08:11:25 pm »

Quote from: Rhi on October 12, 2016, 07:38:21 pm

Unilever products have been "delisted" or are out of stock on Tesco online because Unilever want to increase prices due to a weak £, and Tesco refused. They've not been able to reach a compromise.

This is potentially massive news that could have huge knock-on effects.

just think marmite could destroy brexit

Poll

How do we think the UK Will do - Assuming Brexit happens (Hard or Soft..)

Author Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*) (Read 869712 times)