Topic: Calm down – we’re making progress

[AndyMuller]

that entire positive, detailed, in depth opening post quoted with a two sentence moan about the defence.

Our defence only needs two sentences to describe it. Hardly going to reply with eight paragraphs about it because we all know it's shite.

[ToneLa]

Aye, but literally quoting a paragraphs-long post that touches on a lot of different key points with the most half-arsed, banal, obvious, boring "observation" post possible, deliberately against the spirit of the fucking thread title, just cracked me up due to being small minded and sly on the OP. Funny

But it taught us nowt new. Fair play to the OP, he has some perspective.

[sms1986]

deliberately against the spirit of the fucking thread title,

Same with the optimists thread, it's had a couple of the negative lot jump on something to have a whinge about.

[AndyMuller]

Aye, but literally quoting a paragraphs-long post that touches on a lot of different key points with the most half-arsed, banal, obvious, boring "observation" post possible, deliberately against the spirit of the fucking thread title, just cracked me up due to being small minded and sly on the OP. Funny

But it taught us nowt new. Fair play to the OP, he has some perspective.

I didn't quote OP's post.

[clinical]

A great OP and we certainly are making progress. Klopp as our manager, our team including some great players such as Mane, Coutinho (yes, yes, someone will be along soon enough I'm sure, but he's still our player), Firmino etc, possible Champions League qualification on the horizon.

But do you not understand the frustration? We seem to get so close, and then we take two steps back

see 2009 and 2014 for prime examples of this.

2009 - Alonso

2014 - Suarez

2017 - Possibly Coutinho along with lack of much needed signings.

[jillcwhomever]

Same with the optimists thread, it's had a couple of the negative lot jump on something to have a whinge about.

It's easier to ignore them in the optimist's thread though.

[ToneLa]

I didn't quote OP's post.

You're not Tiz Lad.

[sms1986]

But do you not understand the frustration? We seem to get so close, and then we take two steps back

see 2009 and 2014 for prime examples of this.

2009 - Alonso

2014 - Suarez

2017 - Possibly Coutinho along with lack of much needed signings.

Of course I understand the frustration, I'm not saying everything is perfect.

[RK7]

This season will show us if we've made real  progress or not, Rodgers made progress early on. It's now that the honeymoon period is over and we don't have the luxury of one game a week that we will be tested.

Nice words and all but it's all been said before.

[Always_A_Red]

I don't spend too much time in the main forum so excuse my ignorance, but are people actually wanting rid of Klopp? Of the many LFC fans I know in real life no one thinks that way. People are understandably pissed off with our lack of spending but everyone knows that's not on Klopp.

I haven't seen anyone say that they want him gone but I've seen and heard a growing number of people start to really doubt his ability as a manager. People seem to have this sheep mentality when it comes to the media and ex pro's. Who gives a shit what Alan Shearer thinks, honestly? If Sky presents a stat on a Saturday afternoon stating how many goals we've conceded from set pieces last season then everyone jumps on the bandwagon 'oh yeah, we're shite at defending corners and freekicks, its just typical shite Liverpool' or 'Klopp's never been able to set up a defence' bla bla bla. Its all agenda driven rubbish. We conceded just 3 more goals than Man City last season. Nobody mentions in the media our brilliant defensive record in terms of stopping teams from creating chances from open play, why? Because it doesn't suit the agenda.

So whilst I haven't seen anyone call for his head, this is how it starts. People believing the agenda that's put in front of them and not seeing the bigger picture. We're moving forwards and growing as a club. People wanting Klopp to instantly eradicate a problem that has been there since Agger was here with practically the same group of players are simply impatient.

 

[Chief Brody]

I haven't seen anyone say that they want him gone but I've seen and heard a growing number of people start to really doubt his ability as a manager. People seem to have this sheep mentality when it comes to the media and ex pro's. Who gives a shit what Alan Shearer thinks, honestly? If Sky presents a stat on a Saturday afternoon stating how many goals we've conceded from set pieces last season then everyone jumps on the bandwagon 'oh yeah, we're shite at defending corners and freekicks, its just typical shite Liverpool' or 'Klopp's never been able to set up a defence' bla bla bla. Its all agenda driven rubbish. We conceded just 3 more goals than Man City last season. Nobody mentions in the media our brilliant defensive record in terms of stopping teams from creating chances from open play, why? Because it doesn't suit the agenda.

So whilst I haven't seen anyone call for his head, this is how it starts. People believing the agenda that's put in front of them and not seeing the bigger picture. We're moving forwards and growing as a club. People wanting Klopp to instantly eradicate a problem that has been there since Agger was here with practically the same group of players are simply impatient.

I think you're underestimating a lot of supporters, I've no doubt theres a minority that do as you say and take a lot of what the media to heart but its worth taking into account that the internet, and forums in particular do tend do present polarized views. Views, by the way, that you won't alter. Sadly.

[heylookitsjacob]

This season will show us if we've made real  progress or not

We are in the champions league play-offs. Was that not "real" progress?

[has gone odd]

klopp is a miracle worker, turned our fortunes around on the pitch, though to be fair to rogers, he did well with suarez in the team. if phil goes is the same fate going to befall klopp?

as far as transfer activity is concerned the progress is so minimal i can only say mane and matip have been a measured successes. the youngsters will develop well under klopp but it all takes time. the modern game does not allow for endless amounts of time, we have waited long enough i think and our trophy cabinet is getting dustier by the season.

its not the end of the world but the last few weeks have put our situation in perspective, we are not quite the most desirable club to join and insane money piled into bull-crap no history clubs has skewed the whole lot of it.

[rich87]

I haven't seen anyone say that they want him gone but I've seen and heard a growing number of people start to really doubt his ability as a manager. People seem to have this sheep mentality when it comes to the media and ex pro's. Who gives a shit what Alan Shearer thinks, honestly? If Sky presents a stat on a Saturday afternoon stating how many goals we've conceded from set pieces last season then everyone jumps on the bandwagon 'oh yeah, we're shite at defending corners and freekicks, its just typical shite Liverpool' or 'Klopp's never been able to set up a defence' bla bla bla. Its all agenda driven rubbish. We conceded just 3 more goals than Man City last season. Nobody mentions in the media our brilliant defensive record in terms of stopping teams from creating chances from open play, why? Because it doesn't suit the agenda.

So whilst I haven't seen anyone call for his head, this is how it starts. People believing the agenda that's put in front of them and not seeing the bigger picture. We're moving forwards and growing as a club. People wanting Klopp to instantly eradicate a problem that has been there since Agger was here with practically the same group of players are simply impatient.

So in the one hand we're expected to believe stats for players and the club use stats to scout future players and use it for telling us why we ain't signing anybody this window because nobody in the world is good enough in the stats that we want, yet when a graphic Is put on sky sports about how piss poor we are at defending set pieces (which to be honest none of us need a graphic to tell us that) then we should ignore it.

Stats will be used to rightly or wrongly judge our transfer window. Stats will rightly or wrongly cost Klopp his job if we take a huge downward tumble.

Klopp has had his honeymoon. This season the guy rightly or wrongly be judged on his performance over the course of the season. Not after 20 games but by the end of the season we'd all expect to see us improving. If that hasn't happened we need to look at why - and most would point to last January and this summer as the main reason why.

Then you have the question rightly or wrongly - whose to blame? If Klopp tells us he's happy with his squad and we don't need anyone else then unfortunately he is allowing people to take him down. If he gives us or if it leaks from somewhere it's somebody else's fault then we'll deal with that at the time.

This was a crucial summer, we were told we had a huge budget. That we were going to be a force to be reckoned with. Are signings were pretty much complete start of June, etc etc...

Here we are facing another transfer window having a profit...

... I ask is that good enough for a club who are top 10 in terms of income. With the massive upturn in TV revenue as well.

The progress should have been clear to see on Saturday. Instead we saw exactly the same problems we had last season in defence. We saw the lack of quality defending set pieces, we lacked a leader to organise us.

Rightly or wrongly people are showing there frustrations. Not at Klopp but at how poorly run this club appears to be from the outside. Frankly it hasn't been good enough. We haven't filled the holes in the squad we needed to. We're playing players out of position, playing 2 youngsters at RB, albeit one looks like he could be a world beater, a left back who we didn't expect to see again, and 3 midfielders not suited to playing with each others styles. I want to see Gini, Hendo and Can play this season. I don't want to watch a midfield 3 of them again. We'll have tons of games this season, lots of injuries, time and a place for each. But together it offers us nothing.

We haven't signed the dynamic box to box midfielders, we're now 2 attacking midfielders short with injuries and possibly losing Coutinho, we have 2 first team wingers with no real first team back up.

[jillcwhomever]

Good god. 

[wemmick]

Nice OP, mate. Long term progress is rarely linear. We'll have some set-backs along the way, but there's no doubt we've come a long way since May of 14/15.

[So… Howard Philips]

Nice OP, mate. Long term progress is rarely linear. We'll have some set-backs along the way, but there's no doubt we've come a long way since May of 14/15.

Unfortunately the thread is turning into a gloom magnet.

[jillcwhomever]

Unfortunately the thread is turning into a gloom magnet.

Like most tend to on here. 

[Fromola]

Klopps  done as well as he can with what he's got to work with. In fact he's overachieved.

The problem is the lack of activity in the transfer market and a pitiful net spend under Klopp in comparison to our competitors.

This was the window we needed to go all out to push on after not investing in previous windows. Every summer we get it wrong. We always lack strategy

[jckliew]

We will know by tomorrow whether we are making progress.

[Djimi Smicer34]

We have absolutely progressed under Klopp.

To continue progressing, we have to qualify for the group stages of the Champions League and add further quality to the squad in the next fortnight.  Aiming for consolidation isn't going to match the ambitions of our best players, we've got the core of a very good squad here and with Klopp at the helm and three or four of the right signings, there's no reason why we can't and shouldn't really challenge for trophies this season.

[Jookie]

as far as transfer activity is concerned the progress is so minimal i can only say mane and matip have been a measured successes.

We've signed the following players since Klopp joined:

Mane - arguably our most important player
Matip -  arguably our best centre back
Wijnaldum - 1st XI regular for a Top 4 side
Salah -  too early to judge. Initial signs look good
Klavan - always going to be back up. Done OK. Played too much last season due to Lovren and Matip's injury problems
Karius -  have to say failure so far but probably too early to judge
Robertson -  too early to judge
Manninger -  hard to judge. Influence was always going to be off field rather than on it

Solanke, Grujic, Allan - these can't be judged yet. Bought for future rather than now.

It might come across as pedantic but saying only 2 transfers have so been successful paints a picture that the transfer strategy has been poor. You are being selective and negative about an aspect of Klopp's tenure that I find difficult to be critical of.

The actual players we've recruited and how they've impacted has been good to me. Maybe overall recruitment process can be criticised. Couldthere could have been more, or could we have been more ambitious with recruitment? That would be my biggest issue with recruitment. Not the actual players we bought

[Jookie]

We will know by tomorrow whether we are making progress.

What's happening tomorrow?

[Djozer]

What's happening tomorrow?

Progress Decision Day.

Live coverage starts at 12.45 with Garth Crooks, Alan Shearer and Robbie Savage sitting in a studio debating whether or not Liverpool have progressed at all, whether they should dump Firmino and buy a 30 goal a season striker, why haven't they bought a tall English lad to play instead of Lovren and why hasn't Moreno been hounded out the club at the end of a pitchfork and sent to a leper colony yet, the shit foreign twat.

[killer-heels]

We've signed the following players since Klopp joined:

Mane - arguably our most important player
Matip -  arguably our best centre back
Wijnaldum - 1st XI regular for a Top 4 side
Salah -  too early to judge. Initial signs look good
Klavan - always going to be back up. Done OK. Played too much last season due to Lovren and Matip's injury problems
Karius -  have to say failure so far but probably too early to judge
Robertson -  too early to judge
Manninger -  hard to judge. Influence was always going to be off field rather than on it

Solanke, Grujic, Allan - these can't be judged yet. Bought for future rather than now.

It might come across as pedantic but saying only 2 transfers have so been successful paints a picture that the transfer strategy has been poor. You are being selective and negative about an aspect of Klopp's tenure that I find difficult to be critical of.

The actual players we've recruited and how they've impacted has been good to me. Maybe overall recruitment process can be criticised. Couldthere could have been more, or could we have been more ambitious with recruitment? That would be my biggest issue with recruitment. Not the actual players we bought

Definitely. The players we have identified and actually signed have been very good. Even the players who havent played well yet like Karius were and are highly rated and may take longer to adapt.

Even the window before Klopp came we signed Milner, Clyne and Firmino so we clearly are signing good players.

Like you said, there are other problems around recruitment and strategy rather than the players we have bought.

[Jookie]

Progress Decision Day.

Live coverage starts at 12.45 with Garth Crooks, Alan Shearer and Robbie Savage sitting in a studio debating whether or not Liverpool have progressed at all, whether they should dump Firmino and buy a 30 goal a season striker, why haven't they bought a tall English lad to play instead of Lovren and why hasn't Moreno been hounded out the club at the end of a pitchfork and sent to a leper colony yet, the shit foreign twat.

Thanks for the heads up.

There was me thinking someone was suggesting that the result of tonight's game (the 1st leg of tie)  would be a true indicator of our progress under Klopp.

[Djozer]

Thanks for the heads up.

There was me thinking someone was suggesting that the result of tonight's game (the 1st leg of tie)  would be a true indicator of our progress under Klopp.

Well, obviously the conclusion reached on Progress Decision Day is heavily influenced by the previous evening's result, though it is by no means as kneejerk a decision as you seem to be suggesting. It also takes into account the result immediately prior (the devastating, season-ending, life-defining draw at Watford), the lack of major signings made (Salah doesn't count because he used to play for Chelsea), the lack of a traditional 442 formation, the lack of a defensive midfielder, Corners and How Shit Liverpool Are At Defending Them and the continued existence of Lovren and Moreno, which is an affront to all that is decent and beautiful in the world.

While it is by no means a foregone conclusion, I'd suggest things aren't looking great for a positive decision.

[Fromola]

We've signed the following players since Klopp joined:

Mane - arguably our most important player
Matip -  arguably our best centre back
Wijnaldum - 1st XI regular for a Top 4 side
Salah -  too early to judge. Initial signs look good
Klavan - always going to be back up. Done OK. Played too much last season due to Lovren and Matip's injury problems
Karius -  have to say failure so far but probably too early to judge
Robertson -  too early to judge
Manninger -  hard to judge. Influence was always going to be off field rather than on it

Matip isn't better, or arguably as good, as Sakho so we're no stronger as a back five, personnel wise, than when Klopp walked through the door. And we still can't do the basics defensively.

I said throughout Rodgers's time that not signing a DM was pure negligence. Klopp hasn't been in for one either.

We haven't adequately replaced Reina, Hyypia, Mascherano or Alonso. Of course it's very hard to do that, but we haven't even signed players with the same skill sets. At least when Suarez left we 'tried' to get Sanchez who was a similar type of player. Of course we end up with his polar opposite in Balotelli.

[So… Howard Philips]

Well, obviously the conclusion reached on Progress Decision Day is heavily influenced by the previous evening's result, though it is by no means as kneejerk a decision as you seem to be suggesting. It also takes into account the result immediately prior (the devastating, season-ending, life-defining draw at Watford), the lack of major signings made (Salah doesn't count because he used to play for Chelsea), the lack of a traditional 442 formation, the lack of a defensive midfielder, Corners and How Shit Liverpool Are At Defending Them and the continued existence of Lovren and Moreno, which is an affront to all that is decent and beautiful in the world.

While it is by no means a foregone conclusion, I'd suggest things aren't looking great for a positive decision.

Did you mention zonal marking and the need for a big lad up front to mix things up?

And you missed Lawrenson off the panel as well.

[Fromola]

Liverpool not signing a defensive midfielder since Masch left in 2010 has been one of life's great mysteries.

Matic will make a big difference to United this season, for example. He'll help them defensively and also free up the likes of Pogba to improve them offensively.

Kante has been footballer of the year the last two seasons.

A good DM can compensate for a mediocre defence.

[Djozer]

Did you mention zonal marking and the need for a big lad up front to mix things up?

And you missed Lawrenson off the panel as well.

Excellent points both - zonal marking in particular is as heinous a football-related crime as it is possible to commit. I'd go so far as to say that the very concept physically repulses me, as it should any right-minded supporter.

Did we mark the Nazis zonally when we fought them on the beaches, on the landing grounds and in the hills? No, we bloody well didn't. Would this great nation have ruled half the world under Queen Victoria had a zonal marking system been de rigueur at the time? Of course not. It's a known scientific fact that the Roman Empire only collapsed after the implementation of a zonal marking system - before then (as every schoolboy knows) they went man-to-man all the way, as evidenced by the frescoes at Pompeii.

And yeah, Lawro's gotta be in there, he's about the most impartial adjudicator I can possibly imagine.

[cdav]

Why is everyone so obsessed with a defensive midfielder, its fucking bonkers! More than one way to set up a team than 4231, but seems so many think its the only way- its not so get over it. There is a reason we haven't and aren't looking to buy some lump who just trundles about the pitch (and its not because we are crap at transfers), its because Klopp doesn't want one.

[Fromola]

Why is everyone so obsessed with a defensive midfielder, its fucking bonkers! More than one way to set up a team than 4231, but seems so many think its the only way- its not so get over it. There is a reason we haven't and aren't looking to buy some lump who just trundles about the pitch (and its not because we are crap at transfers), its because Klopp doesn't want one.

The successful teams have a midfielder who can properly protect the defence. Madrid were a shambles until they started playing Casmeiro and now they're winning everything. Zidane remembered what happened to the team he played for when Makelele was sold.

[So… Howard Philips]

Excellent points both - zonal marking in particular is as heinous a football-related crime as it is possible to commit. I'd go so far as to say that the very concept of physically repulses me, as it should any right-minded supporter.

Did we mark the Nazis zonally when we fought them on the beaches, on the landing grounds and in the hills? No, we bloody well didn't. Would this great nation have ruled half the world under Queen Victoria had a zonal marking system been de rigueur at the time? Of course not. It's a known scientific fact that the Roman Empire only collapsed after the implementation of a zonal marking system - before then (as every schoolboy knows) they went man-to-man all the way, as evidenced by the frescoes at Pompeii.

And yeah, Lawro's gotta be in there, he's about the most impartial adjudicator I can possibly imagine.

And Wellington had plenty of big lads up front in the Guards at Waterloo when we beat the reigning Euroean champions.

[RK7]

Why is everyone so obsessed with a defensive midfielder, its fucking bonkers! More than one way to set up a team than 4231, but seems so many think its the only way- its not so get over it. There is a reason we haven't and aren't looking to buy some lump who just trundles about the pitch (and its not because we are crap at transfers), its because Klopp doesn't want one.

Every team needs to be flexible, completely ignoring the value of having a DM player in the squad is crazy. Incidentally we looked far better defensively when Lucas came into the side last year, imagine a prime Lucas or Mascherano in our side now.

[Zlen]

Sure, we are making progress - this has never been in doubt with business savvy owners and a great manager. The question is are we taking big enough strides to aim for top honours some time soon. This is where I reserve my doubts. This summer started full of promise but is looking to end on one or a series of downers. How or why? Who really cares. It's all about actions not about words and as so many times before our actions speak of a club that is not run as it should be. So yeah, we are progressing - it may not matter one fucking bit at the end of the season.

[AaronSingh25]

I can (and do complain about many things), but i'm thankful for the manager we have. Just love him, great personality, a winner, and plays great attractive football. We are lucky to have him.

[Black Bull Nova]

We've gone from;

Worse than champions Chelsea 2014/15 to...............

Better than Chelsea 2015/16 to..............

Worse than champions Chelsea 2016/17 to...............

Better than Chelsea 2017/18

Progress is an uneven road for some

[Black Bull Nova]

I can (and do complain about many things), but i'm thankful for the manager we have. Just love him, great personality, a winner, and plays great attractive football. We are lucky to have him.

 

[ToneLa]

We will know by tomorrow whether we are making progress.

Assuming this was referring to tonight's game, are you going to return and be positive?