Topic: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)

[redmark]

The passing map @11tegen11 posted on twitter shows how little was going up our right side. It has Gini's average location for his touches on the left middle rather than the right. If I'm reading it correctly. 


https://twitter.com/11tegen11/status/898937238913925121

Done a bit more analysis for the RT, specifically around the midfield 'dysfunction' and whether Wijnaldum's performance is cause or effect. Context.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Great insight again thank you Babu

What do you think the solution is? Is there anybody in the team/bench that could play the role he should be playing? Like Ejaria? Or Gruijic? Or Milner?

The solution is - dropping Henderson imo. He just doesn't get Gini's game.

[Giono]

Done a bit more analysis for the RT, specifically around the midfield 'dysfunction' and whether Wijnaldum's performance is cause or effect. Context.

Thanks. Great read. And the heat maps tell a story.
And the passing maps of Hendo and Milner speak volumes about what was happening.


Gini's touch count can look like a symptom rather than a cause.

[BabuYagu]

Great insight again thank you Babu

What do you think the solution is? Is there anybody in the team/bench that could play the role he should be playing? Like Ejaria? Or Gruijic? Or Milner?

I went into this a bit more in the RT also. In terms of our squad, Woodburn and Dhanda have the skillset, but as redmark pointed out to me before, you don't want to put the "Coutinho replacement" responsibility on their shoulders with all the negative connotations with that at the moment.

"We are replacing Coutinho with Woodburn. Have no intention of signing anybody. Woodburn isn't good enough. He's too..... " You can see how that could play out and cause problems for the kids. Plus Dhanda is in the final year of his contract too, which will likely exclude him from the first team until resolved.

Ejaria & Grujic are more like Pogba than David Silva. They can carry the ball at a bank line and are great with space to operate in. But they are unlikely to do the things we need to turn and get inbehind a midfield or defence as I was demonstrating here.

/snip

It's something I am working on an article for RAWK for specifically. I won't be doing it until the transfer window closes so that I can include any new players we have in that analysis. Keita / Zielinski for example are very adept at this.

[Giono]

It's something I am working on an article for RAWK for specifically. I won't be doing it until the transfer window closes so that I can include any new players we have in that analysis. Keita / Zielinski for example are very adept at this.

Let's hope you can include another midfielder or two!

We really do need a 'Our Midfield' thread as there are some good observations in here as well as other individual players' threads that get lost in the fanclub nature of those threads.

[nico 8]

But Wijnaldum going missing and having the fewest touches is something that extends from last season.

Not picking on you but a question for the board in general. What is the expectation of Wijnaldum in terms of his role in the team.  We seem to have the same discussion each time when we are frustrated against low block teams. Without our creative players our midfield is functional and we tend to play a patient game. Henderson, Can and one Milner are too pedestrian and I would venture to argue that their style of play is what inhibits our midfield and in particular Wijnaldum. Gini is a quick passer and thinker on and off the ball. His lack of touches is out of context and damning to the others who have all the ball and create little. As for Robertson's crosses ( good debut), Moreno would whip it in and be accused of not finding a teammate. It took Babu's post to explain the beauty of an early whipped cross into the danger zone. Fans do look for scapegoats as they cannot deal with their frustrations.

[jepovic]

Not picking on you but a question for the board in general. What is the expectation of Wijnaldum in terms of his role in the team.  We seem to have the same discussion each time when we are frustrated against low block teams. Without our creative players our midfield is functional and we tend to play a patient game. Henderson, Can and one Milner are too pedestrian and I would venture to argue that their style of play is what inhibits our midfield and in particular Wijnaldum. Gini is a quick passer and thinker on and off the ball. His lack of touches is out of context and damning to the others who have all the ball and create little. As for Robertson's crosses ( good debut), Moreno would whip it in and be accused of not finding a teammate. It took Babu's post to explain the beauty of an early whipped cross into the danger zone. Fans do look for scapegoats as they cannot deal with their frustrations.

I would love to hear Klopp's opinion, because I don't get it.
Personally, I don't that his few touches etc is tactical. When we have played without Gini, we haven't had anyone behaving like him. Can, Milner and Lallana are much more active.
If he didn't have these sparks of class, which ultimately have given him excellent stats for goals and assist, I would've said he's just poor. But basic quality is not the problem.

[Purple Red]

The solution is - dropping Henderson imo. He just doesn't get Gini's game.

Yeah that's right. Let's blame Henderson for Gini underperforming.

[nico 8]

Yeah that's right. Let's blame Henderson for Gini underperforming.

Dropping Henderson isn't the solution. Isn't it about finding the right balance and mix in the midfield. We know that a midfield of three of Henderson, Can, Wijnaldum and now Milner will not give us the requisite creativity. To blame any one of three because he is having a ' quiet ' game detracts from the functionality of the midfield as a unit. As a unit they kept their shape in minimizing Palace's chances while at the same time creating the platform for the front 3 and one of the full backs to bomb forward. Robertson was given license to push forward and Gomez less so. Ultimately, we got the goal and kept the clean sheet. Does anyone expect any of our functional midfielders to dribble and take an opponent on. At best, only Can when in space surges forward who invariably ends up taking a shot or loses the ball. Seldom does he put a player in. He will get better given his age.

[BabuYagu]

Dropping Henderson isn't the solution. Isn't it about finding the right balance and mix in the midfield. We know that a midfield of three of Henderson, Can, Wijnaldum and now Milner will not give us the requisite creativity. To blame any one of three because he is having a ' quiet ' game detracts from the functionality of the midfield as a unit. As a unit they kept their shape in minimizing Palace's chances while at the same time creating the platform for the front 3 and one of the full backs to bomb forward. Robertson was given license to push forward and Gomez less so. Ultimately, we got the goal and kept the clean sheet. Does anyone expect any of our functional midfielders to dribble and take an opponent on. At best, only Can when in space surges forward who invariably ends up taking a shot or loses the ball. Seldom does he put a player in. He will get better given his age.

Against Burnley last season, our midfield three had 16 passes/touches into the box that day. 13 of those were from Lallana. Coutinho was 2nd highest on the pitch with 11 from the wing. Firmino 3rd with just 5.
Against Watford our midfield three had 6 passes/touches into the box. Gini was highest contributor with 3.
Against Palace our midfield three had 7 passes/touches into the box. Gini again was our highest contributor with 3, despite playing 20 minutes less than the other two.

Maybe Gini's biggest problem is that he isn't a suitable replacement for Lallana or Coutinho in terms of playing against a low block?

[nico 8]

Against Burnley last season, our midfield three had 16 passes/touches into the box that day. 13 of those were from Lallana. Coutinho was 2nd highest on the pitch with 11 from the wing. Firmino 3rd with just 5.
Against Watford our midfield three had 6 passes/touches into the box. Gini was highest contributor with 3.
Against Palace our midfield three had 7 passes/touches into the box. Gini again was our highest contributor with 3, despite playing 20 minutes less than the other two.

Maybe Gini's biggest problem is that he isn't a suitable replacement for Lallana or Coutinho in terms of playing against a low block?

There is no doubt that Gini is unable to replicate the figures of either Coutinho or Llalana in and around the box. If he is expected to do so in the latter two's absence, then clearly this is where the problem lies. In the games cited above, what are the number of touches in the box or forward passes into the box of the other ' functional' midfielders.

[BabuYagu]

There is no doubt that Gini is unable to replicate the figures of either Coutinho or Llalana in and around the box. If he is expected to do so in the latter two's absence, then clearly this is where the problem lies. In the games cited above, what are the number of touches in the box or forward passes into the box of the other ' functional' midfielders.

v Burnley(A)	Passes into	Touches in
LALLANA	2	11
GRUJIC	1	0
GINI	0	1
HENDERSON	2	0
v Watford(A)	Passes into	Touches in
GINI	1	2
HENDERSON	2	0
CAN	0	1
v Palace(H)	Passes into	Touches in
MILNER	1	1
GINI	0	3
HENDERSON	0	2

Looking at that, it tells me Lallana is the only player likely capable of receiving the ball behind the midfield line, turning and playing the ball into the forward line in a low-block. Gini would be next best, out of our midfielders but nowhere near the level of Lallana. It's something he can do, but if you are relying on him solely to do so, you are in trouble.

Henderson looks good feeding the ball into those tight areas, but without a Lallana or Coutinho to receive it behind the midfield and play through the defence, he struggles to move the ball through the midfield line into the forwards. Which means the forwards need to drop into that zone Lallana & Coutinho would normally operate and take shots from there further from goal - or we go round the block rather than try to go through, which is what we saw so far this season.

[nico 8]

v Burnley(A)	Passes into	Touches in
LALLANA	2	11
GRUJIC	1	0
GINI	0	1
HENDERSON	2	0
v Watford(A)	Passes into	Touches in
GINI	1	2
HENDERSON	2	0
CAN	0	1
v Palace(H)	Passes into	Touches in
MILNER	1	1
GINI	0	3
HENDERSON	0	2

Looking at that, it tells me Lallana is the only player likely capable of receiving the ball behind the midfield line, turning and playing the ball into the forward line in a low-block. Gini would be next best, out of our midfielders but nowhere near the level of Lallana. It's something he can do, but if you are relying on him solely to do so, you are in trouble.

Henderson looks good feeding the ball into those tight areas, but without a Lallana or Coutinho to receive it behind the midfield and play through the defence, he struggles to move the ball through the midfield line into the forwards. Which means the forwards need to drop into that zone Lallana & Coutinho would normally operate and take shots from there further from goal - or we go round the block rather than try to go through, which is what we saw so far this season.

Thanks for your research. The stats bear out what we already see with our naked eye. When our creative players are not playing we lack forward passes into the zone and our functional forwards circulate the ball left to right. Clearly we need alternatives- Keita, Oxlade- Chamberlian ? Can pick out a forward pass in a low block or drive forward with the ball and take an opponent on ala Countinho and Llalana.
The problem with our functional midfield is that they do not circulate with pace and precision in terms of the movement of the ball and to the space wher a player does not have to check his movement to collect the ball. They simply do not shift a defensive low block sufficiently enough.

[BabuYagu]

Thanks for your research. The stats bear out what we already see with our naked eye. When our creative players are not playing we lack forward passes into the zone and our functional forwards circulate the ball left to right. Clearly we need alternatives- Keita, Oxlade- Chamberlian ? Can pick out a forward pass in a low block or drive forward with the ball and take an opponent on ala Countinho and Llalana.
The problem with our functional midfield is that they do not circulate with pace and precision in terms of the movement of the ball and to the space wher a player does not have to check his movement to collect the ball. They simply do not shift a defensive low block sufficiently enough.

He scouts as someone good working in tight spaces. In terms of Ted Knutsen's radars you are looking for people who score highly in dribbles, touches in and passes into the box.



That looks like a very good lockpick in terms of being elite in dribbles and throughballs - above average in Passes into and touches in the box.

[nico 8]

He scouts as someone good working in tight spaces. In terms of Ted Knutsen's radars you are looking for people who score highly in dribbles, touches in and passes into the box.


That looks like a very good lockpick in terms of being elite in dribbles and throughballs - above average in Passes into and touches in the box.

Notwithstanding his injury record but given his ability, age and experience ( for a 23 year old), I am surprised that our interest in him has cooled off. It would appear that Klopp feels that Milner added to the midfield is sufficient.

[BabuYagu]

Notwithstanding his injury record but given his ability, age and experience ( for a 23 year old), I am surprised that our interest in him has cooled off. It would appear that Klopp feels that Milner added to the midfield is sufficient.

Maybe, maybe not. Given there are no leaks from the club we no longer really have any indication of what is happening really. It could be Arsenal are trying to convince Ozil, Sanchez and AoC to stay - but know they cannot let those three all run their contracts down. SO if it gets late in teh window and the situation is still as it is now, we will make an offer.

Or maybe we have a verbal agreement with the agent for him to join next summer. The agent is pressuring Arsenal to let him go sooner but Arsenal are reluctant given we are direct rivals plus the whole Suarez farce still leaving some bad feeling between the clubs - as demonstrated by the anti-arsenal clause in Firmino's contract.

Btw - there is more about our midfield in the Roundtable thread for the Palace game if you are interested in reading it.

[nico 8]

Maybe, maybe not. Given there are no leaks from the club we no longer really have any indication of what is happening really. It could be Arsenal are trying to convince Ozil, Sanchez and AoC to stay - but know they cannot let those three all run their contracts down. SO if it gets late in teh window and the situation is still as it is now, we will make an offer.

Or maybe we have a verbal agreement with the agent for him to join next summer. The agent is pressuring Arsenal to let him go sooner but Arsenal are reluctant given we are direct rivals plus the whole Suarez farce still leaving some bad feeling between the clubs - as demonstrated by the anti-arsenal clause in Firmino's contract.

Btw - there is more about our midfield in the Roundtable thread for the Palace game if you are interested in reading it.

My concern is that he could move to Chelsea given that they have the funds to compete for trophies. Anyway I fear that I am derailing Gini's thread. I have read the roundtable thread ( as ever- informative) but shall post any future comments on our midfield in that thread. Cheers.

[jepovic]

v Burnley(A)	Passes into	Touches in
LALLANA	2	11
GRUJIC	1	0
GINI	0	1
HENDERSON	2	0
v Watford(A)	Passes into	Touches in
GINI	1	2
HENDERSON	2	0
CAN	0	1
v Palace(H)	Passes into	Touches in
MILNER	1	1
GINI	0	3
HENDERSON	0	2

Looking at that, it tells me Lallana is the only player likely capable of receiving the ball behind the midfield line, turning and playing the ball into the forward line in a low-block. Gini would be next best, out of our midfielders but nowhere near the level of Lallana. It's something he can do, but if you are relying on him solely to do so, you are in trouble.

Henderson looks good feeding the ball into those tight areas, but without a Lallana or Coutinho to receive it behind the midfield and play through the defence, he struggles to move the ball through the midfield line into the forwards. Which means the forwards need to drop into that zone Lallana & Coutinho would normally operate and take shots from there further from goal - or we go round the block rather than try to go through, which is what we saw so far this season.

Stats are funny.
Can only had one touch in the box against Watford, but it was the goal of the year.

[SerbianScouser]

Tomorrow is Gini's kind of game. it's a home match , opponent will play an open game, importance will be huge which will bring the best out of him, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a goal or an assist.

[wemmick]

Tomorrow is Gini's kind of game. it's a home match , opponent will play an open game, importance will be huge which will bring the best out of him, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a goal or an assist.

He loves a big game, doesn't he? Hopefully tomorrow will see him kick on after a slow start to the season. Would be really helpful if can play himself into the same form he had at the end of last season.

[BabuYagu]

Stats are funny.
Can only had one touch in the box against Watford, but it was the goal of the year.

It is the Watford game this season, not last.

[lamonti]

Stats are funny.
Can only had one touch in the box against Watford, but it was the goal of the year.

This season's game. Henderson was injured for the Watford away trip last season.

[Schmidt]

Didn't Klopp experiment with Firmino in midfield in preseason? I think he could offer a lot of what Coutinho and Lallana do, though he seems to lose the ball more often. I think he and Sturridge could form a good partnership too if both were central.

[nico 8]

Didn't Klopp experiment with Firmino in midfield in preseason? I think he could offer a lot of what Coutinho and Lallana do, though he seems to lose the ball more often. I think he and Sturridge could form a good partnership too if both were central.

Losing the ball in midfield ( even deep in the opposition) has exposed us to the counter on several occasions. I doubt Klopp would take such risk with Firmino unless circumstances warrant it.

[Schmidt]

Losing the ball in midfield ( even deep in the opposition) has exposed us to the counter on several occasions. I doubt Klopp would take such risk with Firmino unless circumstances warrant it.

Can loses it all the time and doesn't offer what Firmino does in attack, I'd rather see Bobby in that attacking midfield role than Emre. Woodburn is another option but I'm not sure he has the confidence yet to be turning people in midfield all game and playing in tight spaces.

[Redcap]

Can loses it all the time and doesn't offer what Firmino does in attack, I'd rather see Bobby in that attacking midfield role than Emre. Woodburn is another option but I'm not sure he has the confidence yet to be turning people in midfield all game and playing in tight spaces.

It's an interesting theory.

I think Can protects the ball better than Firmino and won't lose the ball nearly as much, but he'll take a lot less risks and is not one of our better players in transitions and as a result we won't break through the press as much.

In any case Firmino is really a 10 (Lallana/Coutinho) if he's in CM at all, whereas Can is probably a 6 or an 8. Can is nowhere near a 10 at this stage.  Neither is perfect for the Lallana/Coutinho role, but your third choice player for a given role probably wouldn't be.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

v Burnley(A)	Passes into	Touches in
LALLANA	2	11
GRUJIC	1	0
GINI	0	1
HENDERSON	2	0
v Watford(A)	Passes into	Touches in
GINI	1	2
HENDERSON	2	0
CAN	0	1
v Palace(H)	Passes into	Touches in
MILNER	1	1
GINI	0	3
HENDERSON	0	2

Looking at that, it tells me Lallana is the only player likely capable of receiving the ball behind the midfield line, turning and playing the ball into the forward line in a low-block. Gini would be next best, out of our midfielders but nowhere near the level of Lallana. It's something he can do, but if you are relying on him solely to do so, you are in trouble.

Henderson looks good feeding the ball into those tight areas, but without a Lallana or Coutinho to receive it behind the midfield and play through the defence, he struggles to move the ball through the midfield line into the forwards. Which means the forwards need to drop into that zone Lallana & Coutinho would normally operate and take shots from there further from goal - or we go round the block rather than try to go through, which is what we saw so far this season.

That's fairly grim analysis, as if it's on point, that only leaves him with one role in any tactical shape. He's not much cop on the wing or at 2nd striker either. Who knows, Klopp might use him at wingback sometime....

Loads of talent on the ball clearly, he must be one of the hardest to knock off the ball at the club, technique + physique, but seems content channelling all that talent to singularly complete that 5 yard pass to his fullback. Before donning that Harry Potter cloak. Again

[BabuYagu]

That's fairly grim analysis, as if it's on point, that only leaves him with one role in any tactical shape. He's not much cop on the wing or at 2nd striker either. Who knows, Klopp might use him at wingback sometime....

Loads of talent on the ball clearly, he must be one of the hardest to knock off the ball at the club, technique + physique, but seems content channelling all that talent to singularly complete that 5 yard pass to his fullback. Before donning that Harry Potter cloak. Again

He is a player who thrives in chaos and space. You give him space and a runner - heŽll play through balls aplenty as we have seen many times in the past. Give him a chaotic midfield game of transitions and heŽll shine like he did against Spurs. Against a low block though - he can't be our main creative outlet. Problem is, he does that role better than Milner, Henderson or Can. A midfield 2 of Gini & Henderson feeding a playmaker between the lines is great. A midfield 3 from Milner, Henderson, Can & Gini with no central player to work between the lines will struggle to move balls through the middle of the pitch.

When Lallana & Coutinho are out, we need an alternative approach tactically or to try a different and unlikely player in there (e.g. Salah, Woodburn?).

It seems at the weekend we gave up on playing through them and decided to go around them instead, which tactically you have to agree with on the basis that we created enough chances to score 4 goals easily enough despite facing a low block. The consequence of this is that your midfielders then exists to support the flanks and provide an extra body for an overload and combinations rather than be creative players or support the attack themselves. This then firmly transfers the creative responsibility to wide players which is a risk, but against a low block without a playmaking #10 type, it's probably the right approach.

[Wool]

Unsurprisingly very good tonight, unlucky not to get a goal or two.

[redmark]

Outstanding.

[Roger Federer]

I've been critical of him at the start of this season, but much, much better tonight, really showed how good he can be. That pass for our third, fantastic!

[pyroparty]

Excellent tonight, thats what he's capable of. Expecting the same on Sunday given how Arsenal play!

[Camarero25]

MASSIVE improvement from him tonight. That's why I get so frustrated when he doesn't impose himself on games, because there's a real player in there.

[JD.]

Great pass for the 3rd goal. Wish he'd play a bit quicker like that all the time though instead of looking to wrestle people.

A lot better though. Very good squad player to have, especially in big home games.

[JackWard33]

Thank god he read my posts after his last performance and showed up tonight. Just needed the proper motivation. You are welcome.

[rawcusk8]

Been abit shit recently aint he but superb tonight, involved in pretty much everything. Love him

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Big player who performs the best in big games and under pressure.

[SerbianScouser]

It's incredibly easy to predict when he's gonna play well or not. It's such a clear pattern with him.

A home game, opponent who wants to play open game against us and he'll be playing lights out. Expect a similar fantastic performance against Arsenal as well.

[clinical]

He was good tonight.

[Dench57]

Much better