Author Topic: PL: Liverpool 3 v Brighton 3 Trossard 4', 17', 83', Bobby 33', 52', Webster 62'  (Read 28494 times)

Online mattD

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Do serious questions need to be asked for recruitment?

It seems things have been allowed to get stale, and no sign of Arthur so far and no policy beyond 'get top target for midfield' suggests no plan B in the market.

We are seeing this rear its ugly head once again with recruitment where the scouting is so limited to just one player. Tcouhameni goes to Madrid leaving Liverpool with no option, are we really putting our eggs in one basket for Bellingham then only for him to go elsewhere?

It's just so inflexible, and I realise it's precision targeting for the best players but the fact that there is no room for manoeuvrability or plan b in the market from Liverpool suggests we don't have much to rely on with finances when rebuilding the squad compared to other clubs around us. It's a harsh truth but worrying at the same time that makes you beg the question, how do we start again?

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Do serious questions need to be asked for recruitment?

It seems things have been allowed to get stale, and no sign of Arthur so far and no policy beyond 'get top target for midfield' suggests no plan B in the market.

We are seeing this rear its ugly head once again with recruitment where the scouting is so limited to just one player. Tcouhameni goes to Madrid leaving Liverpool with no option, are we really putting our eggs in one basket for Bellingham then only for him to go elsewhere?

It's just so inflexible, and I realise it's precision targeting for the best players but the fact that there is no room for manoeuvrability or plan b in the market from Liverpool suggests we don't have much to rely on with finances when rebuilding the squad compared to other clubs around us. It's a harsh truth but worrying at the same time that makes you beg the question, how do we start again?

We have never had this approach and always had other options if first one didn’t work out.
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Offline PatriotScouser

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We didn't properly reinvigorate the squad which is why we're seeing what we are seeing.

Refreshing the squad with new faces and some leaving does give a lift to the squad. It also ensures that players in certain positions knows they have to maintain standards to keep their place in the team.

The squad were not only deflated at the end of the season but thoroughly tired after the hard work of chasing city and going for all the cups. It took its toll and the combination of losing the league and CL really it seems to me deflated the team.

Which meant it needs refreshed with 3-4 first team additions - especially in midfield - and that would have given them some sort of lift. To the players and to us supporters too.

Offline ThePoolMan

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And in terms of investment, we don't need to be owned by oil barons, or even anyone else, but we have record money coming in now and we can barely spend anything for 3 years, something has got to give.

I don't agree with the line that we don't have to be bought by an oil state now - what Billionaire interested in football can spend 3 billion and unlimited money on transfers without being an oil state (Bohlry has Saudi backing and the amount he spends year on year is to be proven yet - I wouldn't trust that he has unlimited budget on the back of his first window as every new owner spends big). No likely any sale is to an oil state which no one wants but a few cryarses.

But we have to divert something to the team otherwise we are just going to sink like a stone and then end up in a continuously worse financial situation.

We want fsg to turn this around and I hope they see the urgency and spend the money that needs to be Spent in January or they can kiss CL qualification goodbye next season.

Offline killer-heels

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It is clear fom the transfer rspeculation that their main target is Bellingham though. Anyway do u think any top midfielder will cost much less? Barella will cost 80m euros at least, even that young 21 year old brazilian midfielder is said to cost 53m.  Caicedo will cost much more than 40m.

So two midfielders for the same it costs for Bellingham. I would take that deal.

Offline bird_lfc

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It does show how good it was for us to win the title with the likes of city about

For me, everyone else has got better and we’ve regressed and it’s as a simple as that. Our manager has been let down for recruitment by his owners, but also made some questionable decisions himself recently on the field, but for me one of the main issues is our ‘bigger’ players like VVD, Trent etc struggling for form again

I’ll echo the Bellingham shouts, we need 2/3 good bodies in the midfield to be competitive again

Still the top 4 is probably our target which is underachieving sure but should be our main focus now 

Offline ThePoolMan

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Do serious questions need to be asked for recruitment?

It seems things have been allowed to get stale, and no sign of Arthur so far and no policy beyond 'get top target for midfield' suggests no plan B in the market.

We are seeing this rear its ugly head once again with recruitment where the scouting is so limited to just one player. Tcouhameni goes to Madrid leaving Liverpool with no option, are we really putting our eggs in one basket for Bellingham then only for him to go elsewhere?

It's just so inflexible, and I realise it's precision targeting for the best players but the fact that there is no room for manoeuvrability or plan b in the market from Liverpool suggests we don't have much to rely on with finances when rebuilding the squad compared to other clubs around us. It's a harsh truth but worrying at the same time that makes you beg the question, how do we start again?

Arthur does not have the pace nor the strength nor the resilience and injury proof Ness that we are needing. By the time he comes up to speed if he will ever get there, it will be nearer to the end of the season.

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We didn't properly reinvigorate the squad which is why we're seeing what we are seeing.

Refreshing the squad with new faces and some leaving does give a lift to the squad. It also ensures that players in certain positions knows they have to maintain standards to keep their place in the team.

The squad were not only deflated at the end of the season but thoroughly tired after the hard work of chasing city and going for all the cups. It took its toll and the combination of losing the league and CL really it seems to me deflated the team.

Which meant it needs refreshed with 3-4 first team additions - especially in midfield - and that would have given them some sort of lift. To the players and to us supporters too.

Bingo.
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Offline TSC

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Poor today and lucky to get a draw.  Lost too many class players and never replaced them sufficiently over the last couple of years is the bottom line. 

Having said that far too many are completely off form.

But then how gutting must it be to bust a gut each game knowing city are uncatchable without sufficient investment.

Offline Xanderzone

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It's clear as day what happened in this summer.

The Tchouameni chase proves that CM was the priority. With the funds raised for him through player sales. He chose Madrid, that happens. Onto the next target.

However then Mane announces he wanted to leave which threw a real spanner in the works because unlike Coutinho before him he had only a year left on his deal so we couldn't command a big fee.

So then all the funds from player sales which were intended for a new CM had to get diverted to a Mane replacement.

And this is the result.

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I think this pretty much explains it. With so many of our players on the wrong side of 30 and a distinct lack of investment in recent years, it was only natural that we'd stagnate. The CL winning sides of 2019 and 2020 were never going to keep it up season after season, especially given how we play. We've reached the end of a cycle and simply have to rebuild.

I agree.

Last season was the last hurrah for a few, I think.  The team/squad gave absolutely everything they had!  We would've won the treble, if not for the cheats.

We also haven't spent anywhere near enough, since 2019.  First rule of top-level football, strengthen when you're on top!
« Last Edit: October 1, 2022, 07:37:09 pm by Red-Soldier »

Offline ThePoolMan

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So two midfielders for the same it costs for Bellingham. I would take that deal.

Bellingham is a generational talent for the midfield much like what haaland is as a forward. He would future proof our midfield for the next decade and be the foundation around which we can rebuild our entire team, let alone the midfield. The kid literally has no technical weakness and can do everything a modern midfielder can do - he has even more breadth of ability than Gerrard had. We would have a criminal lack of ambition if we didn't try our best to sign him.

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I agree.

Last season was the last hurrah, I think.  The team/squad gave absolutely everything they had!  We would've won the treble, if not for the cheats.

Also, how many times have we had to finish second so many times and often only by a small amount. it must have an effect on players after it happens so many times.
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Offline Xanderzone

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Also, how many times have we had to finish second so many times and often only by a small amount. it must have an effect on players after it happens so many times.
Which made the urge for investment and extra help all the more necessary.

Offline ThePoolMan

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Also, how many times have we had to finish second so many times and often only by a small amount. it must have an effect on players after it happens so many times.

Moreover with klopp's intensity that is required, the core of this squad may be reaching the end of their cycle and klopp has to rebuild the team. The older players may not only be unable to summon the same powers physically but may no longer be willing to. We have to remember rhat klopp has never managed at a club as long as he has managed so far with Liverpool. He himself always moved on to a new club when he had exhausted his cycle at the club he was at. So it is new experience for klopp also.

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Which made the urge for investment and extra help all the more necessary.

No one is saying any different, but it's not the only reason.
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Moreover with klopp's intensity that is required, the core of this squad may be reaching the end of their cycle and klopp has to rebuild the team. The older players may not only be unable to summon the same powers physically but may no longer be willing to.

Aye, the heart is willing but maybe not the legs. It's sad that this group of players have only had one title though they deserved more.
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Offline DonkeyWan

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So, first of all, kudos. Coming back from 2-0 down to lead 3-2 is impressive, no mean feat in any game. However, letting BHA get 2 goals ahead and later equalise is yet more evidence of how poorly this season has started. I feel some felt that a short break would have the team all energised and things would go back to how they have been before this season. Perhaps this was due to the manner in which Liverpool have suddenly hit the skids. However, the warning signs have been there for some time. Even in the run in to last year’s pretty incredible season, Liverpool were beginning to tire badly, with players looking their age a lot more.

But even before that, the club had shown a reluctance to renew the squad, preferring instead to strip it back and use sales to generate purchases. Problematically this often involved selling 2 or more players, but only bringing in one. Wages went up with ages and the squad became top heavy with veterans. Youth was deemed the answer, but that is a slow and incremental process of improvement a high-flying team can ill afford to wait for results from.

What adds to these problems is the nature of how Klopp has set up Liverpool to compete on a comparatively small budget top the likes of City, Chelsea and united. Eschewing a team of individuals organised into a cohesive whole, he instead has established a system for the whole club, 433. There are variations on a team, but since Klopp has arrived it’s been clear from the get go how he wants the team to play. Rather than forging mismatched parts into a whole, he selects components for the first team and makes them interchangeable. He favours versatility, so integral components can be used across different areas of the team. It means Liverpool are greater than the sum of their parts, able to compete through smoothly functioning processes, rather than moments of brilliance.

The reason that is importance and why I have mentioned all the above is because that means there are no quick fixes. Once the system begins to break down, you either replace the parts or it breaks down. You can’t just ‘play deeper’, ‘go longer’, ‘knock it down’ etc. because to alter the style of play would have a catastrophic chain reaction across the systemised team. In other words flexibility is the cost of functionality. This is where careful planning comes in, and over the last number of transfer windows conservatism has increased risk, by allowing conservatism and cost savings to undermine the squad vitality.

What it also means is that just bringing in one player in January will be insufficient. The team will just limp on to the summer the way it is already limping furiously toward the January window. Even then, whatever purchases are made can only be the start of the overhaul, not the lick of paint and on we go. In January the midfield problem needs fixing. That means probably 2 pressing, tackling runners. But then the summer will also need to focus on rebuilding the defence. Konate and Gomez may be the future, but one VVD or Matip will need to start being phased out and a higher quality 5th CB (than Nat Philips) will need to be brought in. Then after that the front line will need work over the next two transfer windows, as Firmino and Salah bow out.

And please don’t start saying ‘Gomez will replace VVD’, ‘Elliott will replace Salah’ etc. It’s a given that we expect those players to step up. But if they step up somebody has to replace them. And if they don’t step up, then their understudy has to be good enough to surpass them. The point is, in a squad of 25, a third are over 30. There is no point saying 1/3 of the squad will replace the other 1/3 of the squad. And no, Liverpool won’t get 8 youth players to replace 8 senior players, because the players coming behind those senior players are not yet ready to become senior players themselves. Liverpool needs purchases and trying to rearrange the deckchairs on a leaky ship is not the solution.
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Offline Redric1970

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Bellingham is a generational talent for the midfield much like what haaland is as a forward. He would future proof our midfield for the next decade and be the foundation around which we can rebuild our entire team, let alone the midfield. The kid literally has no technical weakness and can do everything a modern midfielder can do - he has even more breadth of ability than Gerrard had. We would have a criminal lack of ambition if we didn't try our best to sign him.

The trouble is even bellingham isn’t enough we need 3 midfielders of that quality, kieta, ox, Milner can leave for nothing at the end of the season hendo will be nearly 34, Thiago 32, fab nearly 31, Gini  left for free and wasn’t really replaced. We need 3 top class midfielders ie, barella, caicedo, rice, bellingham, now there is absolutely no way we are buying 3 top class midfielders our owners don’t work that way but if we don’t make too 4 and that’s a massive possibility would those players want to come and play in the conference league or the way we are playing No Europe, the owners have fucked up massively and anyone who didn’t see this coming needs a trip to spec savers.
« Last Edit: October 1, 2022, 07:44:12 pm by Redric1970 »

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Also, how many times have we had to finish second so many times and often only by a small amount. it must have an effect on players after it happens so many times.

I agree.

I know it would affect me.  Probably make me think: 'whats the f-ing point'.  You have to manage huge disappointment in losing, plus all the stuff of them being cheats etc (I wonder if that plays on their minds too). 

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So, first of all, kudos. Coming back from 2-0 down to lead 3-2 is impressive, no mean feat in any game. However, letting BHA get 2 goals ahead and later equalise is yet more evidence of how poorly this season has started. I feel some felt that a short break would have the team all energised and things would go back to how they have been before this season. Perhaps this was due to the manner in which Liverpool have suddenly hit the skids. However, the warning signs have been there for some time. Even in the run in to last year’s pretty incredible season, Liverpool were beginning to tire badly, with players looking their age a lot more.

But even before that, the club had shown a reluctance to renew the squad, preferring instead to strip it back and use sales to generate purchases. Problematically this often involved selling 2 or more players, but only bringing in one. Wages went up with ages and the squad became top heavy with veterans. Youth was deemed the answer, but that is a slow and incremental process of improvement a high-flying team can ill afford to wait for results from.

What adds to these problems is the nature of how Klopp has set up Liverpool to compete on a comparatively small budget top the likes of City, Chelsea and united. Eschewing a team of individuals organised into a cohesive whole, he instead has established a system for the whole club, 433. There are variations on a team, but since Klopp has arrived it’s been clear from the get go how he wants the team to play. Rather than forging mismatched parts into a whole, he selects components for the first team and makes them interchangeable. He favours versatility, so integral components can be used across different areas of the team. It means Liverpool are greater than the sum of their parts, able to compete through smoothly functioning processes, rather than moments of brilliance.

The reason that is importance and why I have mentioned all the above is because that means there are no quick fixes. Once the system begins to break down, you either replace the parts or it breaks down. You can’t just ‘play deeper’, ‘go longer’, ‘knock it down’ etc. because to alter the style of play would have a catastrophic chain reaction across the systemised team. In other words flexibility is the cost of functionality. This is where careful planning comes in, and over the last number of transfer windows conservatism has increased risk, by allowing conservatism and cost savings to undermine the squad vitality.

What it also means is that just bringing in one player in January will be insufficient. The team will just limp on to the summer the way it is already limping furiously toward the January window. Even then, whatever purchases are made can only be the start of the overhaul, not the lick of paint and on we go. In January the midfield problem needs fixing. That means probably 2 pressing, tackling runners. But then the summer will also need to focus on rebuilding the defence. Konate and Gomez may be the future, but one VVD or Matip will need to start being phased out and a higher quality 5th CB (than Nat Philips) will need to be brought in. Then after that the front line will need work over the next two transfer windows, as Firmino and Salah bow out.

And please don’t start saying ‘Gomez will replace VVD’, ‘Elliott will replace Salah’ etc. It’s a given that we expect those players to step up. But if they step up somebody has to replace them. And if they don’t step up, then their understudy has to be good enough to surpass them. The point is, in a squad of 25, a third are over 30. There is no point saying 1/3 of the squad will replace the other 1/3 of the squad. And no, Liverpool won’t get 8 youth players to replace 8 senior players, because the players coming behind those senior players are not yet ready to become senior players themselves. Liverpool needs purchases and trying to rearrange the deckchairs on a leaky ship is not the solution.


Good post overall.

The bigger issue here is that every team we have played this season - bar Bournemouth - is cutting through us at will. Simple give and go's, 1-2's, beating the offside trap, you name it.



Offline TSC

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The kid literally has no technical weakness and can do everything a modern midfielder can do - he has even more breadth of ability than Gerrard had.

Nonsense.  Not saying he can’t be better than Gerrard  (all records are there to be broken) but hyperbole much?

Offline ThePoolMan

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The trouble is even bellingham isn’t enough we need 3 midfielders of that quality, kieta, ox, Milner can leave for nothing at the end of the season hendo will be nearly 34, Thiago 32, fab nearly 31, Gini  left for free and wasn’t really replaced. We need 3 top class midfielders ie, barella, caicedo, rice, bellingham, now there is absolutely no way we are buying 3 top class midfielders our owners don’t work that way but if we don’t make too 4 and that’s a massive possibility would those players want to come and play in the conference league or the way we are playing No Europe, the owners have fucked up massively.

I'm precisely saying we need to sign bellingham and at least one other midfielder on the level of barella and caicedo. We also need a mudrek to inject more pace and trickery so that e aren't overdependent on Diaz and salah. Fsg has to wake up and smell the roses and spend tbe cash now.

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Aye, the heart is willing but maybe not the legs. It's sad that this group of players have only had one title though they deserved more.

Agree.  They've been the best team we've ever had in this country - fully deserve more than just 1 title and a CL

Offline killer-heels

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Bellingham is a generational talent for the midfield much like what haaland is as a forward. He would future proof our midfield for the next decade and be the foundation around which we can rebuild our entire team, let alone the midfield. The kid literally has no technical weakness and can do everything a modern midfielder can do - he has even more breadth of ability than Gerrard had. We would have a criminal lack of ambition if we didn't try our best to sign him.

What a load of shite.

Offline ThePoolMan

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Nonsense.  Not saying he can’t be better than Gerrard  (all records are there to be broken) but hyperbole much?


I said he has no technical weakness in his game and that he has more breadth of ability than Gerrard did. In other words he can do everything u expect a modern midfielder to do. I didn't say he can do all that consistently to a world bearing ability already right now. But patently he has that potential and that breadth of skills already as his stats already show. Gerrard was many things but he never had the ability to dribble through the midfield the way bellingham can.

Offline Redric1970

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I'm precisely saying we need to sign bellingham and at least one other midfielder on the level of barella and caicedo. We also need a mudrek to inject more pace and trickery so that e aren't overdependent on Diaz and salah. Fsg has to wake up and smell the roses and spend tbe cash now.


We need a complete overhaul in the middle of the park I just can’t for the life of me see FSG spend what’s needed realistically you are looking at £100mil bellingham, £100mil rice, £80mil barella, £40mil caicedo, and we need 3 of those, this is the crossroads for FSG although I think they fucked up already and we are now playing catch up.

Offline ThePoolMan

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What a load of shite.

His potential is clearly way out there ahead of any other player in his age group. Every top team in tbe continent wants to sign him. Clearly tbyw know something that you apparently do not.

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Nonsense.  Not saying he can’t be better than Gerrard  (all records are there to be broken) but hyperbole much?

Indeed what’s he done so far 🤷‍♂️

Offline ThePoolMan

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We need a complete overhaul in the middle of the park I just can’t for the life of me see FSG spend what’s needed realistically you are looking at £100mil bellingham, £100mil rice, £80mil barella, £40mil caicedo, and we need 3 of those, this is the crossroads for FSG although I think they fucked up already and we are now playing catch up.

I don't think we need to sign rice who will cost as much as bellingham at least. But I don't see any other way that to sign at least two put of three of such level of player. Like Shankly said, the owner is there to make the financial work to be able to sign tbe players we need so it's up to fsg to make it happen.
« Last Edit: October 1, 2022, 07:53:32 pm by ThePoolMan »

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We are a bit shite really… that was like a pre season game after being on a bender for 4 weeks straight.

So disjointed all round and what really gets my goat is we keep saying that we are working on rectifying it but yet there is no evidence of it.

For me Trent is obviously severely lacking in confidence and it’s prob time for him to be out of the limelight, his defending is woeful and his whole positioning is just weird, we’re trying to be overly clever with him. A right back but trying to pop up all over the field… it’s an experiment that isn’t quite working out and we’re at a point of either he’s a RB or a midfielder, but he can’t be both when in a RB position…

Mo Salah; it’s to the point he either improves or we need to bin him off as he’s not offering anything in the front 3…

VVD needs to find his mojo and be that titan that he was previously… he’s showing too many vulnerabilities when he is far more capable…

Overall we need to get our act together and fast, we’re not going to make top 4 or even top 8

Offline NativityplaysareBack

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Heh, Bellingham it seems. I'd be delighted if we secure CL this season, given the performances at home and away.

There are far bigger problems than recruitment. The lack of leadership and defensive stability being major ones. I was concerned we did not sign a midfielder, but these results have no bearing on our transfer activity. Individual mistakes and lack of effort is killing us. Not much else.

Offline HomesickRed

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Also, how many times have we had to finish second so many times and often only by a small amount. it must have an effect on players after it happens so many times.

Punched above our weight, bounced back to win the league but couldn't do so much as a victory parade in front of our home fans because of covid. Following season was a let-down. Last season going so close only to lose out on the big ones. This team hit a brick wall in the CL final in May, physically and mentally. This is the fallout from an ageing team that has run through too many brick walls.

Offline lollysportswasher

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Bellingham is nowhere near Gerrard. The only player right now that is right on the level of Gerrard plays for a rival team called City and its De Bruyne.

Offline Redric1970

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6 players started today over 30 and a 37 year old sub it’s stupid we have let ourselves get to position, and our fans wonder why we don’t have the legs anymore.

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Heh, Bellingham it seems. I'd be delighted if we secure CL this season, given the performances at home and away.

There are far bigger problems than recruitment. The lack of leadership and defensive stability being major ones. I was concerned we did not sign a midfielder, but these results have no bearing on our transfer activity. Individual mistakes and lack of effort is killing us. Not much else.

We need more than 1 player and City and Real are involved so we have no chance. People need to forget about Bellingham already, we are not paying 150 million for him.

Offline NativityplaysareBack

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We aren't playing as a Klopp team and consistently so. Need to start showing what made us so good, mentally and physically.

Offline Caps4444

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We want fsg to turn this around and I hope they see the urgency and spend the money that needs to be Spent in January or they can kiss CL qualification goodbye next season.

They didn’t in 2020/21 in Jan and they won’t now….we’ll not the amount needed.

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We are defending like we have to play Fabinho and Henderson at CB

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Heh, Bellingham it seems. I'd be delighted if we secure CL this season, given the performances at home and away.

There are far bigger problems than recruitment. The lack of leadership and defensive stability being major ones. I was concerned we did not sign a midfielder, but these results have no bearing on our transfer activity. Individual mistakes and lack of effort is killing us. Not much else.

Yarp.

It’s an easy topic which certain people are absolutely battering because they think it makes them look clever, and they haven’t got the bottle to criticise the gaffer or any of our players. We’ve had maybe two games where we haven’t looked way off the opposition in terms of fitness. Something has either drastically changed or gone very wrong. I’d wager again we were probably outrun by Brighton today.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.