Topic: The Future Of Britain

[Commie Bobbie]

Ah, yet another loaded title!

However this isn't about political specifically, but about the Monarchy.

It is clear that the current Monarch isn't going to be around for much longer - and I wonder how such a seismic moment will affect Britain as an entity.

The up and coming Monarch is one who doesn't exactly agree with the present government's world view on a host of topics - and is unafraid to say those views aloud.

But I wonder whether such a moment will be the instigator - the moment for the four nations to go their own way, whether by choice, or whether by other means - and what that means.

I have wondered what would have happened if such a moment came 15 or 20 years ago, I don't believe that such a risk of splitting would be greater then, that it feels like it is now.

So, we're clear this is about the future of Britain, this isn't about the tribulations of the Monarchy, this is how Britain steps into the unknown, in plenty of different ways.

There seems to me a whole series of issues that are coming down the road for this country which have for one reason or another have been delayed for convenience over the past few years - starting with the elephant in the room. Brexit.

It really does feel that this is the first summer that it's coming home to people just what they were losing by voting for such a hard exit.

Then there is the Scotland and Irish questions which I believe are beginning to become more entangled than anyone thinks. I believe if one goes, the other will go soon after.

If the current Monarch is still around at this critical moment is vital, as I cannot help but fear for an organised English Nationalist group trying to stoke fear and hatred of the other - aside this time around they'd have politicians in Parliament on their side as well as the papers.

Imagine if the Queen goes in the midst of winter as power cuts ravage the country. It may be jolly on here and other certain places - but make no mistake - amongst a sizable part of the population there will be a collective form of grief possibly unparalleled in our lifetimes. How would that play out - especially if the same politicians are running the show at that moment?

[KillieRed]

I’m not a fan of the institution nor the family. But what would be the constitutional impact of us no longer having a Monarch?

With regards to Scotland “going it’s own way”, I believe I’m right in thinking that it’s not as simple as Unionists support the Queen (Monarch) and those for Independence do not. In terms of the independence debate the question of the monarchy is very much on the back burner-tbd at a later date. I don’t think the SNP want to touch it in fear of losing votes. The monarchy (to me) are strangely popular across the UK. Perhaps it’s fear of change, or fear of having someone like Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove or Reds-Mogg as the alternative-an elected Head of State.

I’m not convinced that the monarchy actually brings in X million pounds to our economy every year. Paris & Vienna don’t seem to be short of tourists to former royal palaces, and I’m even more skeptical about their influence over trade deals.

[TipTopKop]

The London Monarchs were the only monarchs I mildly cared about, and they weren't that good.

[Commie Bobbie]

I don't believe the Monarchy can or will survive in its present form - and it's clear that William thinks that - hence why trimming the numbers on the public purse.

However, it's clear that Scotland especially wants to go it's own way, it will be interesting to see whether they kept the Monarch as head of state ala Australia and just leave the entity that is Britain.

[Red-Soldier]

The London Monarchs were the only monarchs I mildly cared about, and they weren't that good.

Didn't they win the World Bowl once?

Still got my Monarchs cap 

[TipTopKop]

Didn't they win the World Bowl once?

Still got my Monarchs cap 

Clive Allen....   That still haunts me 

[Elmo!]

I expect if Scotland went independent there would be a referenum on the monarchy 5-10 years after independence. Getting rid of them would probably win, but who knows, a lot could change by then.

[thaddeus]

Ah, yet another loaded title!

However this isn't about political specifically, but about the Monarchy.

It is clear that the current Monarch isn't going to be around for much longer - and I wonder how such a seismic moment will affect Britain as an entity.

The up and coming Monarch is one who doesn't exactly agree with the present government's world view on a host of topics - and is unafraid to say those views aloud.

But I wonder whether such a moment will be the instigator - the moment for the four nations to go their own way, whether by choice, or whether by other means - and what that means.

I have wondered what would have happened if such a moment came 15 or 20 years ago, I don't believe that such a risk of splitting would be greater then, that it feels like it is now.

So, we're clear this is about the future of Britain, this isn't about the tribulations of the Monarchy, this is how Britain steps into the unknown, in plenty of different ways.

There seems to me a whole series of issues that are coming down the road for this country which have for one reason or another have been delayed for convenience over the past few years - starting with the elephant in the room. Brexit.

It really does feel that this is the first summer that it's coming home to people just what they were losing by voting for such a hard exit.

Then there is the Scotland and Irish questions which I believe are beginning to become more entangled than anyone thinks. I believe if one goes, the other will go soon after.

If the current Monarch is still around at this critical moment is vital, as I cannot help but fear for an organised English Nationalist group trying to stoke fear and hatred of the other - aside this time around they'd have politicians in Parliament on their side as well as the papers.

Imagine if the Queen goes in the midst of winter as power cuts ravage the country. It may be jolly on here and other certain places - but make no mistake - amongst a sizable part of the population there will be a collective form of grief possibly unparalleled in our lifetimes. How would that play out - especially if the same politicians are running the show at that moment?

It's a very good question.  The grandiose state ceremonies that would happen around that - whilst not particularly expensive in the grand scheme of things - would sit at odds with a sizable proportion of the population struggling through the winter in poverty.

I doubt her passing would hasten the break up of the union.  The Tories remaining in power after the next GE will do though as they're openly hostile to the devolved governments, they must know that being so dismissive of a second Scottish referendum is going to strengthen the resolve.

One point I disagree on is that I don't think it would be particularly jolly on here.  HRH has walked the tightrope just about as well as she could/can and I don't think many people have any animosity towards her.  I doubt even staunch republicans would be celebrating her death as it's not as though HRH dying means the end of the monarchy, just the passing down of the crown.

With Charles it felt like the leaking of a few negative stories about him - the accepting of donations from Osama Bin Laden's (disowned) family, for example - were a warning shot after he'd made a few outspoken comments.  I think he'll become far less outspoken once he's the monarch which is a shame.  William and Kate are the embodiment of bland PR so we can't expect them to pass comment on the direction the country is heading.

[has gone odd]

There is this natural assumption that everyone in Scotland wants Independence, which I can categorically say isn't true. The last referendum was tight but the majority voted to stay, kinda speaks for itself. The Tory twats have not helped but Sturgeon has pulled many cards out to win votes, like lowered the voting age.

SNP support isn't all about independence, many of those that are are very snide and nasty about it, but that's modern politics I guess.

[thejbs]

There is this natural assumption that everyone in Scotland wants Independence, which I can categorically say isn't true. The last referendum was tight but the majority voted to stay, kinda speaks for itself. The Tory twats have not helped but Sturgeon has pulled many cards out to win votes, like lowered the voting age.

SNP support isn't all about independence, many of those that are are very snide and nasty about it, but that's modern politics I guess.

My Scottish friends and family were mostly no votes at the last referendum and now every single one wants independence. The chief reasons I hear from them are Brexit and the Tories. They feel like the promises of the last referendum weren’t kept. And their kids (early 20s) are overtly political and fervently pro-independence.

Cost of living crisis will only give independence more traction. Hard to convince people to remain in a union where you can’t afford to keep warm but oil companies record record profit.

[has gone odd]

Yep, I totally get why voters are now fed up with Westminster, who isn't?!

Independence will change very very little, the fickle voters probably wont see any difference for a long time. Now whether its a good or bad difference cannot be guaranteed by Sturgeon, though of course their promises will be full on. They are no better or worse than any other political party, same lies, drama and false promise. I have a friend that attended an event just recently with Sturgeon and had a chance to speak with her, when she asked where she was from (not an SNP controlled County) she immediately stuck her nose up in the air, became rude and moved on!

[Fortneef]

Independent Scotland + rumpUk FPTP = Tory Government forever

Independent Scotland + Eu membership = hard border with England

SNP = “Independence” + “jam for everyone, forever”


Scottish independence has to be tied to
RumpUK PR or we are fucked 

[Circa1892]

Independent Scotland + Eu membership = hard border with England

Is an independent Scotland joining the EU a given? Would the Spanish, for example, not need some persuading.

On the original. I think the Queen's passing will hasten a lot of things. It represents a real break with the UK and its longer term history. The Queen is someone who ties the country to its past (her first Prime Minister was an MP in the Victorian era) and aligns with the illusions of granduer and soft power of the country. She's the most famous woman in the world. Any of her successors will be by any means a much more diminished figure.

I don't think it has a major impact on devolution/the break-up of the Union. I would imagine it makes some countries less likely to remain in the Commonwealth/with the Monarch as head of state. It's one thing the Queen being head of state because, in living memory "she always has been", and quite another a random big eared pensioner who takes money from the Bin Laden's being.

Longer term Britain's future is entirely reliant on accepting our place. We are not a major power, and have not been since the mid-20th century. We can have a secure and prosperous future doing what we're good at well and building strong relationships with our neighbours. None of which will be a feature of a Truss administration.

[Dr. Beaker]

The only downside to them doing the decent thing and fucking off, is President (for life) Johnson.

[KillieRed]

Independent Scotland + rumpUk FPTP = Tory Government forever

Independent Scotland + Eu membership = hard border with England

SNP = “Independence” + “jam for everyone, forever”


Scottish independence has to be tied to
RumpUK PR or we are fucked

There are definitely hardcore independence nutters out there who want it at any cost. I also think that they come from a variety of political persuasions though the accepted notion is that left-wing = pro-independence, right-wing = unionist. For me, personally, it’s an escape hatch from perpetual Tory rule, a party that seems to max out at 25% of the vote in Scotland. I don’t really think I should apologise about or even consider how that leaves the rest of the UK if we get independence.

After Independence?

-I think the SNP will have to stand on their record in government like other parties do & the post independence honeymoon may be short for them.
-I think there will be a route to rejoining the EU, but it may take a while. Many countries with less to offer have been invited into the gang.
-rUk military & particularly nuclear arrangements will have to be reconsidered, but could be accommodated by US style leases on bases etc.
-The Monarchy will be dispensed with after a referendum.
-I don’t like jam, won’t be having any.

[Elmo!]

Is an independent Scotland joining the EU a given? Would the Spanish, for example, not need some persuading.

The Spanish veto thing has been debunked a long time ago. They have consistently said they have no problem with Scotland going independent as long as it is done legally - and not a UDI.

[Elmo!]

Independent Scotland + rumpUk FPTP = Tory Government forever

Independent Scotland + Eu membership = hard border with England

SNP = “Independence” + “jam for everyone, forever”


Scottish independence has to be tied to
RumpUK PR or we are fucked

Reminds me of Angela Raynor's comments at the Edinburgh Fringe last week.

Basically saying Scots that support indy aren't nice and without us England can't win. It's honestly a pathetic attitude from Labour, and they can get fucked trying to emotionally blackmail us in to saving them.

Especially as they are taking the complete opposite policy platform to what would be required to persuade most Scots, and have prioritised the red wall instead.

[Black Bull Nova]

I expect to end my years in a northern backwater of a country called England with a built in permanent Tory majority looking admiringly at nearby smaller independent Wales and Scotland starting to create their own identity.

[thaddeus]

Reminds me of Angela Raynor's comments at the Edinburgh Fringe last week.

Basically saying Scots that support indy aren't nice and without us England can't win. It's honestly a pathetic attitude from Labour, and they can get fucked trying to emotionally blackmail us in to saving them.

Especially as they are taking the complete opposite policy platform to what would be required to persuade most Scots, and have prioritised the red wall instead.

How do you mean?

From my perspective they've prioritised middle England and moderate centre left and centre right voters.  Arguably a GE winning policy but not particularly appealing to the red wall in particular if at all.

Do you think there are policies that Labour could push that would wrest back some seats from the SNP?

[Elmo!]

How do you mean?

From my perspective they've prioritised middle England and moderate centre left and centre right voters.  Arguably a GE winning policy but not particularly appealing to the red wall in particular if at all.

Do you think there are policies that Labour could push that would wrest back some seats from the SNP?

Mainly their Brexit stance, but also refusing to consider PR. Moving the goalposts on what they consider a mandate for indyref2.

I get why they have decided that's the best strategic move, but they shouldn't  be surprised when we choose a better alternative.

[west_london_red]

I expect to end my years in a northern backwater of a country called England with a built in permanent Tory majority looking admiringly at nearby smaller independent Wales and Scotland starting to create their own identity.

Personally as despondent as I am right now (and I and VERY despondent right now), I’m not giving up hope just yet. The next couple of years will be brutal, probably as bad as we have seen without Nazis dropping bombs on peoples heads but I honestly think we might finally see the beginning of end of the Tory party such will be the state of the country come the next election, we’re getting to that 1997 level of people are just fucked off and tired with these lot, Labour still needs to step up to the plate, but I have little doubt that this current crop of Tories will be remembered as the very worst, surpassing the Eden government which is usually considered to be the worst.

And it might sound slightly bold, but being 40 year old I expect to spend at least my final years in this country as a member of the EU.

[Indomitable_Carp]

Mainly their Brexit stance, but also refusing to consider PR. Moving the goalposts on what they consider a mandate for indyref2.

I get why they have decided that's the best strategic move, but they shouldn't  be surprised when we choose a better alternative.

Regarding PR, I am in full agreement that it would be better for the country (never again would we have to suffer a Tory majority), and for a political system in desperate need of a significant shakeup. But just taking Scotland into account, is it not the case that PR would decrease Scotland´s electoral power in Westminster elections? Scotland as it is has a larger number of seats per head of population then it would as a proportion of the whole UK population in a PR system

[Elmo!]

Regarding PR, I am in full agreement that it would be better for the country (never again would we have to suffer a Tory majority), and for a political system in desperate need of a significant shakeup. But just taking Scotland into account, is it not the case that PR would decrease Scotland´s electoral power in Westminster elections? Scotland as it is has a larger number of seats per head of population then it would as a proportion of the whole UK population in a PR system

Possibly yes, depending on the system. Wouldn't have a fundamental issue with it, though we have more seats because of the remote nature of some of our constituencies.

[KillieRed]

I also wouldn’t have a problem with less seats if there was decent PR  & an actual federal system in the UK. That might even head off the break up of the UK. The driving force behind independence is not only the perpetual rule of the minority view Tories but the bitterness over the lies that were behind the last indyref (no devomax etc) & the Brexit referendum. People feel betrayed. It’s a very basic motivation.

[Elmo!]

Wales and Scotland not nations and independence should be made ‘impossible’ says Lord Frost

Wales and Scotland aren’t nations, the UK should become a “unitary state” with devolution “evolved back”, and independence should be made “impossible”, an influential Tory peer has said.

Writing in the Telegraph, former Brexit minister Lord Frost said that the devolved governments were “subordinate” to Westminster and that the UK Government needed to change how it discussed them.

He that a referendum on independence should “simply be impossible”, with a bar of 75 per cent of seats in the devolved parliament being in favour of independence, over an entire decade.

He said that letting part of the UK go would be a “massive national humiliation” and “morally wrong”.

“The new government can start by changing its language,” he said. “Somehow we have all drifted into speaking as if this country were already a confederation made up of four ‘nations’ that have chosen to work together (but could equally choose differently). When we think like that, we end up having to constantly justify the existence of our country, on a purely transactional basis.

“But the UK is a unitary state, not a federation or a confederation. Both the 1707 and 1801 Acts of Union fused the participants into one state in which all were equal, first ‘Great Britain’, then the ‘United Kingdom’, with one sovereign legal personality and one Parliament and government.

“For all the noise, that is still the case.” He added: “Moreover, if you are a citizen of that unitary state, you are British.”
‘Abandoned’

He added that the UK Government needed “to act” to stop devolved “mission creep”.

“The devolved administrations do not have powers in foreign relations or immigration – they are ‘reserved matters’,” he said.

“If the UK government does not police these boundaries, soon they will no longer exist.

“Meanwhile, I urge people in England not to give in to the ‘let them go’ argument. Partly because the break-up of the country would be a massive national humiliation. In Europe and beyond, it would be seen as a comeuppance which they would exploit to the full.

“But, more importantly, because it is morally wrong. Supporters of the Union in Scotland, people who have built their lives and families on the assumption of its permanence, should not be abandoned. The UK is everyone’s country and we must protect and support it.”

https://nation.cymru/news/wales-and-scotland-not-nations-and-independence-should-be-made-impossible-says-lord-frost/

Force us to stay because us leaving would be a humiliation. That sort of approach always works out well.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Wales and Scotland not nations and independence should be made ‘impossible’ says Lord Frost

https://nation.cymru/news/wales-and-scotland-not-nations-and-independence-should-be-made-impossible-says-lord-frost/

Force us to stay because us leaving would be a humiliation. That sort of approach always works out well.

Yeah. Of course the UK can leave the EU, but Scotland would be denied similar self-determination. And the arguments are, at best, only semantic in nature. Utter shite. And I say this as someone who like to see the Union preserved if at all possible (with the acceptance of each of the four nations of course).

[reddebs]

I like how he says equal when the northern and southern parts of one of those countries isn't even equal.

[Black Bull Nova]

Wales and Scotland not nations and independence should be made ‘impossible’ says Lord Frost

https://nation.cymru/news/wales-and-scotland-not-nations-and-independence-should-be-made-impossible-says-lord-frost/

Force us to stay because us leaving would be a humiliation. That sort of approach always works out well.

Let's go and get Ireland back you frosty prick

[KillieRed]

“Equal” when everything they say & do is to ensure the opposite. As said above: even his own country is devoid of equality. By design.

[Butcher Knife Roberto]

My Scottish friends and family were mostly no votes at the last referendum and now every single one wants independence. The chief reasons I hear from them are Brexit and the Tories. They feel like the promises of the last referendum weren’t kept. And their kids (early 20s) are overtly political and fervently pro-independence.

Cost of living crisis will only give independence more traction. Hard to convince people to remain in a union where you can’t afford to keep warm but oil companies record record profit.

What was the line they used? The only way you can guarantee to remain in the EU is to vote against independence. Diamond Dave then tossed that down the road less than 2 years later. I'll freely admit it, it's the main reason I voted no and I regret it to this day, but I won't make the same mistake twice.

As for the monarchy, I can see the next generation looking to go down a more European line as you get in places like Denmark and the Netherlands, much more low key. Whether the press could cope with that idea, especially when you consider rags like the Mail still bang on about Princess Diana a quarter of a century after her death, remains to be seen.

[Flaccido Dongingo]

The future of Britain, is that there should not be a "Britain", the Welsh and the Scottish will be just fine by themselves, as will Ireland with the occupied 6 are returned, then the Tories can cause as much mayhem as they like.

[Wabaloolah]

Wales and Scotland not nations and independence should be made ‘impossible’ says Lord Frost

https://nation.cymru/news/wales-and-scotland-not-nations-and-independence-should-be-made-impossible-says-lord-frost/

Force us to stay because us leaving would be a humiliation. That sort of approach always works out well.

that's going to go down well, I'm not a supporter of independence but daft twats like Frost make me a tad more in favour of it. If Scotland go for it then wales will follow within 10 years

[Commie Bobbie]

The news the last few days, makes this conversation that bit more current if not urgent.

Interesting article in the Guardian on how diplomats see Britain's future.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/09/queen-elizabeth-death-uk-loss-global-arena

Queen’s death deepens UK’s downward spiral in global arena, US observers say

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson scandals, energy crisis – not to mention Brexit – have undermined Britain’s influence

The prevailing view from America of post-Brexit, post-Elizabethan Britain is principally one of a country of declining influence which is in danger of sinking on the world stage as a result of mostly self-inflicted crises.

The US news coverage of the day of the Queen’s death was overwhelmingly reverent, but by Friday there was already a backlash, pointing to the inseparable bond between the royal family and the country’s imperial past.

Maya Jasanoff, a professor of history at Harvard, argued that the Queen had been the stolid and traditionalist face for a particularly bloody period at the end of the empire, as British forces were fighting independence struggles in Kenya, Malaya and Cyprus.

“These were violent and showed the British extremely unwilling to leave the colonies, which is grotesquely different from the transfer of power that’s implied,” Jasanoff said.

She sees the ghost of empire hanging over Britain’s current cluster of national crises.

“It’s a country that, with Brexit, dealt a self-inflicted blow, in part on the basis of certain ideas about what Britain represents, what Britain’s role in the world is, and those ideas of Britain’s role in the world emanate from the imperial past,” Jasanoff argued.

In the Washington Post, columnist Ishaan Tharoor also weighed Elizabeth’s culpability for the abuses across the remnants of empire after the second world war during her reign, and decided she was “perhaps not privy to all the sordid details of the operations carried out to preserve her empire”. But he argued she had cast herself as “the happy steward of the Commonwealth” of former colonies, pointing out “its history was hardly benign”.

Having lost an empire and then given up its place in the European Union, Tharoor said, the UK was facing “a moment of contraction and uncertainty with “its global status diminished” at the end of the Elizabethan era.

Pessimism about Britain’s prospects is spread across the US political spectrum. Frank Luntz, a Republican pollster who has also worked as an analyst of British politics, said: “The UK is at a truly critical juncture. Politically, economically, even ethically, the institutions and the people who lead them are losing the faith and trust of the people they lead.

“The one steady, predictable force was the Queen, but now she’s gone. Candidly, I fear for Britain’s future,” Luntz said. “I’ve watched what happens in America when there’s no one to unify the country. No one stepped forward, and we can all see the consequences. The Queen was a great unifier. Somebody desperately needs to take her place.”

Before the Queen’s death – and in some of the coverage afterwards – US media stories about Britain have focused on a succession of crises: the recurring political crises of the Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson government, the energy crisis, the cost of living crisis, and the dramatic fall in the value of the pound, which some predict is on course for parity with the dollar by next year.

“I really think that to get out of this deep downward trajectory, there has to be significant innovation,” Elizabeth Carter, assistant professor of political science at the University of New Hampshire, said, suggesting the government stabilisation of energy prices as an example.

“Continuing with the old tools and playing by the old rules of the game would lead to a long-term decline,” Carter added, suggesting “that decline could be steeper than anything the UK has experienced since world war two.”

Staying on the same downward course would in turn make it more likely that Scotland would vote for independence, which would be a devastating blow, and accelerate the UK’s downward spiral in the global arena, she argued.

Daniel Serwer, a former US diplomat, said he sees a Scottish declaration of independence as inevitable.

“The UK has suffered a sudden drop off in its power and influence,” Serwer, now a senior fellow at the School for Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University, said. He described the lure of a US-UK trade deal that would somehow compensate for the losses of leaving the EU market as “complete and utter bullshit” at a time when the US itself is getting more protectionist.

“The UK doesn’t have the leverage that the European Union has in a trade negotiation,” Serwer said. “There’s enormous attachment in the United States to the United Kingdom, but looked at with the cold eye of realism, it’s not the partner it once might have been.”

I suspect how the British government deals with the coming days and weeks is going to play a substantial role in the union's future

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The news the last few days, makes this conversation that bit more current if not urgent.

Interesting article in the Guardian on how diplomats see Britain's future.

I suspect how the British government deals with the coming days and weeks is going to play a substantial role in the union's future

What makes you think that the British government will move from their self-destructive path? They've had 12 years to do anything and since that time the country has less power, influence and prestige on the world stage. The services across the country are wrecked: Health, Education, Social cohesion, Housing, Trade, Defence, Infrastructure, Water, Gas, Electricity, Finance, Technical, Farming, Fishing, Policing, Fire Services and the list goes on and on.

There isn't one area of the UK that isn't now worse since the Tories got back in (Though some people will claim there is 'no difference' between the Tories and Labour - even a causual glance of the end of the Tories and Blair coming into power and then Labour leaving power would show marked differences in the country.

[Bangin Them In]

Starting to genuinely feel that the country is ungovernable

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

Starting to genuinely feel that the country is ungovernable

Why so?

It's currently being governed by a bunch of asset-strippers who rule on behalf of a tiny group of the super-rich, and they are achieving precisely what they intended whilst using control of the media to persuade enough people that it's all someone else's fault (Russia/EU/Immigrants/Corbyn/Poor People). That doesn't mean that a party with genuine intentions of making a fairer nation couldn't govern effectively (I hope). The Tory rags and blurts on TV will do everything in their power to undermine it, of course. That's standard.

[Mini Soda Scousephile]

The future of Britain...

I wish it could include me...

[BobOnATank]

Wales and Scotland not nations and independence should be made ‘impossible’ says Lord Frost

https://nation.cymru/news/wales-and-scotland-not-nations-and-independence-should-be-made-impossible-says-lord-frost/

Force us to stay because us leaving would be a humiliation. That sort of approach always works out well.

You won't be forced to stay, you'll just never be given the chance to leave. The SNP referendum, I predict, will never happen. As the article suggests it is not your right and the previous referendum was a mistake that they won - its over IMO.

Take NI for example, years of the GFA and the british government is still a bad faith actor, now with brexit & the NIP they are working with drug gangs, former loyalist terror groups, to manufacture a political issue to break international law. You have to remember that the island of Ireland has massive soft power in the world. We have both sides of the US government, the EU and the Irish government backing us and yet the brits drag their legs on equality. Scotland has none of that and westminister will do the same again. Scottish independence is not going to happen even if the scots eventually managed to find the proverbial balls to do it, which is still a major question in itself.

[KillieRed]

What do you suggest, resorting to violence? Forming para-military organisations to force the issue? Seems unlikely.

[Elmo!]

You won't be forced to stay, you'll just never be given the chance to leave. The SNP referendum, I predict, will never happen. As the article suggests it is not your right and the previous referendum was a mistake that they won - its over IMO.

Take NI for example, years of the GFA and the british government is still a bad faith actor, now with brexit & the NIP they are working with drug gangs, former loyalist terror groups, to manufacture a political issue to break international law. You have to remember that the island of Ireland has massive soft power in the world. We have both sides of the US government, the EU and the Irish government backing us and yet the brits drag their legs on equality. Scotland has none of that and westminister will do the same again. Scottish independence is not going to happen even if the scots eventually managed to find the proverbial balls to do it, which is still a major question in itself.

What a great union eh? It's like Hotel California.