Topic: Do you support the strikes?

[oldfordie]

I think Russia's motivations are malevolent, with the finger-pointing at NATO/EU nothing more than a smokescreen for domestic consumption (to whip-up nationalism)

I do, however, increasingly think that at least a big part of Russia's motivation for invading Ukraine is to create economic chaos in Europe and 'the West'.

Yeah, I think that's always been his long game. world trying to recover from a Pandemic in so many ways.
He knows he doesn't have to worry about being re-elected so he sees that has his advantage over the west.

[Robinred]

I think Russia's motivations are malevolent, with the finger-pointing at NATO/EU nothing more than a smokescreen for domestic consumption (to whip-up nationalism)

I do, however, increasingly think that at least a big part of Russia's motivation for invading Ukraine is to create economic chaos in Europe and 'the West'.

Undoubtedly true. However, I suspect Putin misjudged much of the aftermath - in particular the strength of Ukrainian resistance and the volume of tangible western support, particularly military.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Do you think Russia’s decision to invade Ukraine just came out of the blue, or do you think they have their reasons for doing so, however misguided those reasons may be.

Of course they have reasons. They just aren't valid ones.  Can you link for me, the eastern expansion  of an economic union with the invasion of Ukraine?

[ianburns252]

Of course they have reasons. They just aren't valid ones.  Can you link for me, the eastern expansion  of an economic union with the invasion of Ukraine?

Economic expansion likely equals economic inflow to Ukraine and potentially improving living conditions and Westernising the population. The closer Westernisation gets to Russia the more visible it will be due to there being significant population crossover with places like Ukraine - it's not just TV anymore but family in a nearby country experiencing these things.

Russian population becomes further turned against Putin having seen more and more of the better world (and first hand account is harder to deny as propaganda than TV and film).

Therefore Russia invades to halt it.

That is the only linking of the factors I can make that makes sense and it is all "misguided"

[Kenny's Jacket]

Economic expansion likely equals economic inflow to Ukraine and potentially improving living conditions and Westernising the population. The closer Westernisation gets to Russia the more visible it will be due to there being significant population crossover with places like Ukraine - it's not just TV anymore but family in a nearby country experiencing these things.

Russian population becomes further turned against Putin having seen more and more of the better world (and first hand account is harder to deny as propaganda than TV and film).

Therefore Russia invades to halt it.

That is the only linking of the factors I can make that makes sense and it is all "misguided"

Thats a natural conclusion yes, given Lynch's actual comment
'The EU also provoked a lot of trouble in Ukraine. It was all about being pro-EU and all the rest of it,"

I realise you have answered a slightly rhetorical question in good faith but if your answer IS the reason Putin invaded.  Would Red 46 have been so quick to defend Lynch if Lynch effectively said, Putin attacked Ukraine to keep himself in a job and the fault lies with the EU?

How would Lynch reconcile the equivalent in his own world, a load of workers were sacked so bosses could keep their jobs/bonus.

Its worth remembering that 3 EU members, Finland Estonia, Latvia already border Russia

[ianburns252]

Thats a natural conclusion yes, given Lynch's actual comment
'The EU also provoked a lot of trouble in Ukraine. It was all about being pro-EU and all the rest of it,"

I realise you have answered a slightly rhetorical question in good faith but if your answer IS the reason Putin invaded.  Would Red 46 have been so quick to defend Lynch if Lynch effectively said, Putin attacked Ukraine to keep himself in a job and the fault lies with the EU?

How would Lynch reconcile the equivalent in his own world, a load of workers were sacked so bosses could keep their jobs/bonus.

Its worth remembering that 3 EU members, Finland Estonia, Latvia already border Russia

I saw the rhetorical to Red46 - this was more an exercise in trying to link the issues and see if I could come to a logical pathway for it if I were in Putin/someone defending Russia's shoes

[Snail]

Is fucking right the Arriva bus drivers, 11.1% rise agreed.

[TipTopKop]

Is fucking right the Arriva bus drivers, 11.1% rise agreed.

Fantastic news, and well done to 'em.

[gazzalfc]

Showed just how easy it was.

For Arriva to offer something that got the strikes called off immediately (all buses to run from 3am tomorrow) without the need formal vote being taken (a vote will be done but Unite and GMB are recommending their members accept) shows just how much room there was in the negotiation.

Just a shame hundreds of workers had to forego nearly a months wage to get it.

Watch the daily mail have a wank over the pay compared to nurses, doctors, teachers (delete as appropriate) blaming them for the inflation spiral..

[oldfordie]

Hopefully other employers have been following the Arriva dispute.
Not gone the way Arriva had hoped, public not laying all the blame on the strikers. no nasty cynical shit thrown at them for calling a strike during the lovely weather to dismiss the strikers wage claims with contempt. people were supposed to be pissed off with them, never happened, no public pressure.
It's not really about supporting every strike, it's not falling for the crap of every strike being the fault of the workers.

[Red Beret]

Puts into perspective Arriva's faux outrage over previous offers not even being put to a vote.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Very pleased that Arriva and going to be running again. Been an absolute pain the arse with them not being there.

Very pleased that they got what they wanted as well.


Win-win-win-win-win.


Winner!


High five!

[Red Beret]

With rail strikes shutting down Merseyrail this coming Thursday and Saturday, getting Arriva buses back will be a lifesaver for many people.

[RF]

CWU royal mail workers ballot on conditions this time.

98.7% vote in favour of strike.

Not a word of it on BBC website. Typical rightwing press.

And on Sky News no mention of conditions
https://news.sky.com/story/royal-mail-workers-vote-to-strike-for-a-second-time-this-summer-12675335

[ianburns252]

CWU royal mail workers ballot on conditions this time.

98.7% vote in favour of strike.

Not a word of it on BBC website. Typical rightwing press.

And on Sky News no mention of conditions
https://news.sky.com/story/royal-mail-workers-vote-to-strike-for-a-second-time-this-summer-12675335

Other than this an hour ago that explicitly mentions terms and conditions

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62582240.amp

[thaddeus]

Other than this an hour ago that explicitly mentions terms and conditions

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62582240.amp

According to the Royal Mail spokesperson in that article they're losing £1m a day, yet Royal Mail plc's published accounts show a £758 million profit for 2021/22 with a 20p/share dividend paid to shareholders.

They're clearly reporting different things but I'd appreciate if somebody could explain why there's such a big difference.  If it's just that different divisions of the company are making big profits or (relatively) small losses then wasn't that the argument against not privatising Royal Mail as the profitable part would offset the loss-making but still important part?

[ianburns252]

According to the Royal Mail spokesperson in that article they're losing £1m a day, yet Royal Mail plc's published accounts show a £758 million profit for 2021/22 with a 20p/share dividend paid to shareholders.

They're clearly reporting different things but I'd appreciate if somebody could explain why there's such a big difference.  If it's just that different divisions of the company are making big profits or (relatively) small losses then wasn't that the argument against not privatising Royal Mail as the profitable part would offset the loss-making but still important part?

Without looking too deeply into it, ignore the dividend - this is out of historical reserves so a loss in one year does not prevent payment of it.

I don't know the strict terms of the shares but that would at least shelve that query.

I'll take a look at the accounts later and see if I can make sense of them - the plc daily profit is roughly £2m a day so there must be things like RM internet etc that are making up the difference.

Let me see what I can dig up

[Yorkykopite]

CWU royal mail workers ballot on conditions this time.

98.7% vote in favour of strike.

Not a word of it on BBC website. Typical rightwing press.

Don't get a job as a researcher!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62582240

[John C]

Don't get a job as a researcher!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62582240

[PaulF]

It was on radio 2 news as well .  Admittedly in the same bulletin that proclaimed musk was buying Manchester United.

[Yorkykopite]

Great vid from TSSA (the white-collar union on the railways) showing how the Dutch, French and German nationalised railway companies benefit from owning large parts of the British rail network.

https://twitter.com/Valhalla51/status/1559944313055989761

PS I'd like to show Mick Lynch this and see what he thinks of it.

[oldfordie]

Great vid from TSSA (the white-collar union on the railways) showing how the Dutch, French and German nationalised railway companies benefit from owning large parts of the British rail network.

https://twitter.com/Valhalla51/status/1559944313055989761

PS I'd like to show Mick Lynch this and see what he thinks of it.

Imagine the German owned Arriva Buses would like to say a big thanks as well, shh don't say nothing about the German Arriva bus routes getting slashed, I mentioned it before but think I got away with it.

[Red Beret]

Reading the statements on Arriva's website from August 16th and 17th, and they're pretty salty. Claimed the union shifted the goalposts on their demands.

[Circa1892]

Do you think Russia’s decision to invade Ukraine just came out of the blue, or do you think they have their reasons for doing so, however misguided those reasons may be.

Shitting hell.

[thaddeus]

Reading the statements on Arriva's website from August 16th and 17th, and they're pretty salty. Claimed the union shifted the goalposts on their demands.

I've not read the statements but I wouldn't say it's unreasonable if they did as the national and global situation is changing rapidly.  Maybe some of these corporations might have been better served treating their employees well when inflation was at 5% because they shouldn't be surprised now when those negotiations have dragged on and the unions have noted that inflation is now over 10%.

Edit: I'm sure you weren't saying it was unreasonable either so not looking to pick a fight!

[thaddeus]

Without looking too deeply into it, ignore the dividend - this is out of historical reserves so a loss in one year does not prevent payment of it.

I don't know the strict terms of the shares but that would at least shelve that query.

I'll take a look at the accounts later and see if I can make sense of them - the plc daily profit is roughly £2m a day so there must be things like RM internet etc that are making up the difference.

Let me see what I can dig up

Thanks 

[RF]

Don't get a job as a researcher!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62582240

☺

[Jshooters]

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2022/08/18/royal-mail-twitter-union-comeback-first-class/

[Red Beret]

I've not read the statements but I wouldn't say it's unreasonable if they did as the national and global situation is changing rapidly.  Maybe some of these corporations might have been better served treating their employees well when inflation was at 5% because they shouldn't be surprised now when those negotiations have dragged on and the unions have noted that inflation is now over 10%.

Edit: I'm sure you weren't saying it was unreasonable either so not looking to pick a fight!

Here are the statements in question:

Update Published: 16th August 2022

We are incredibly disappointed that Unite and GMB members have voted not to accept our latest pay offer, inflicting yet further disruption and misery on our customers in the North West.

Following the rejection of our latest pay offer today we agreed to meet the Union's pay demand in an attempt to end this strike action.  The Unions responded by significantly increasing their pay demand for the second time in this process. This brings into question their intentions.

The Unions are fully aware of the financial implications we face and the implications for our customers and local bus networks across the North West.

We will continue to do all we can to resolve this dispute as quickly as possible. We understand the detrimental impact this situation is having on our customers, our communities, our local economy - we urge the unions to reconsider their position, act in good faith and show a genuine willingness to resolve this dispute for the benefit of their members and our customers.



Update Published: 17th August 2022

Arriva North West is today able to confirm that following ongoing discussions in recent weeks, all parties have come to an agreement on an unprecedented pay deal for Arriva North West drivers.

Following a meeting today, in which the agreement was reached, Unions will now take this recommended offer to our colleagues.

Furthermore, it has also been agreed that industrial action across Cheshire, Lancashire, Manchester and Merseyside will be suspended from 3am on Thursday 18th August and all parties will now work together to progress the pay offer.

Arriva would like to thank our customers across the North West region, for your continued patience in recent weeks, during the extremely challenging Strike period. Timetable and Journey information, for Arriva North West services returning on Thursday 18th August can be found online at arrivabus.co.uk and via the Arriva journey planning.

I bolded a bit I thought was of especial interest, but the language used on August 16th was quite telling. There seems to my mind a thinly veiled threat that fares would increase and services reduced as a result of this pay increase - because god forbid Arriva reduce the share dividend or the bonuses of their executives.

Thing is, with Merseyside introducing a £2 single fare cap, services are almost certainly going to be reduced anyway as Arriva look to absorb the cost/reduction in profit margin. It seems to me like an attempt to blame "greedy unions" for this, when the truth is the unions might not be in a position to extract a pay concession like this again for many years to come.

[Kenny's Jacket]

A more in depth chat with Lynch and James O'Brien on the formers Brexit stance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85cb4gKPpDs

[oldfordie]

A more in depth chat with Lynch and James O'Brien on the formers Brexit stance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85cb4gKPpDs

Another example of the further left you go the more right you become.
Isn't this the same argument the Torys are making, we don't need to be in the EU to protect workers rights, the Torys are also adding we don't need to be in the ECHR to protect our human rights. we can enshrine them all in UK law when we leave, it's the same old ERG con of when we leave the EU WE CAN. blah blah blah bullshit. how's that going right now considering the laws on protesting and promises to destroy union power+ no legal right to defend your rights at the ECHR.
A lot of research was needed to fight the anti EU propaganda, I can't remember the stats exactly but I do remember the point they were making. something like the majority of workers protection rights passed in UK over possibly the last 10-20yrs came from the EU, it may have been up to 75%.
We had a right to improve those laws as they are only set a minimum standard, Lynch misses the point. they set a standard that protects us under a law that was enshrined in UK and the Torys can and will rip those laws up.


 The left were warned on the realty of this being a Tory Brexit, the naivety is shocking. he believes in a Socialist society that can provide all these things. the only way we can now protect these things is to have a permanent Labour government in power, you would think they would see the flaws in their arguments considering the amount of times we end up with a Tory government.

How long have the left been making this argument of the EU stopping us Nationalizing the railways? it's gone on for years but they are only quoting the EUs 4th Railway package which came into existence in 2016 as a argument . they are now telling us not to believe our eyes and ears and ignore all the state ownership inside the EU and believe them when they say the EU stops us from Nationalising the railways.
The left wanted us out of the EU to get total control and like the right they searched for any argument they could make to justify their aim.

[Jiminy Cricket]

A more in depth chat with Lynch and James O'Brien on the formers Brexit stance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85cb4gKPpDs

He's just plain wrong in just about everything he said there. Not just with the facts, but in his naive view of what's now possible too. You'd think the reality of Brexit would have shifted his views some.

[Kenny's Jacket]

He's just plain wrong in just about everything he said there. Not just with the facts, but in his naive view of what's now possible too. You'd think the reality of Brexit would have shifted his views some.

Hes definitely wrong on the workers rights
Nationalisation of the Railways hes a bit wrong based on my rudimentary research
FOM effect on wages Id say he's right

[Kenny's Jacket]

the naivety is shocking. he believes in a Socialist society that can provide all these things. the only way we can now protect these things is to have a permanent Labour government in power, you would think they would see the flaws in their arguments considering the amount of times we end up with a Tory government.

Yes he seems to have voted for his idea of utopia that was never possible.

[PaulF]

Yes he seems to have voted for his idea of utopia that was never possible.

Like all but the very richest brexiters.

[ianburns252]

Hes definitely wrong on the workers rights
Nationalisation of the Railways hes a bit wrong based on my rudimentary research
FOM effect on wages Id say he's right

With FOM and wages - obviously a greater supply of workers allows for depressed wages, but how much better is an understaffed industry that can't run its services and relies on overtime as standard with slightly better wages any better?

It feels fucked either way to me

[Kenny's Jacket]

With FOM and wages - obviously a greater supply of workers allows for depressed wages, but how much better is an understaffed industry that can't run its services and relies on overtime as standard with slightly better wages any better?

It feels fucked either way to me

Yeah I don't disagree 

[redbyrdz]

One thing that happens when you move abroad is that you often make step down the social ladder, because you lose family and other connections, your qualifications might not get recognised, people assume you're stupid because you speak with an accent, etc. The problem is than that because your social status and your qualifications don't match up, you compete for the same jobs as people who are less qualified. And those people usually miss out, because most businesses do go for the higher skilled worker, even if they're foreign. So the local people feel like they're missing out on jobs, while the foreigners get them. But they don't see the uneven playing field, and that the guy who got the labourer's job and can't speak much English is actually a fully trained brickie with a proper apprenticeship and 10 years of experience.

[oldfordie]

Yes he seems to have voted for his idea of utopia that was never possible.

I got the impression O'Brien was thinking the same but felt really bad about being forced to pull him up over it. you could see it in some of the grimaces he pulled listening to Lynch.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I got the impression O'Brien was thinking the same but felt really bad about being forced to pull him up over it. you could see it in some of the grimaces he pulled listening to Lynch.

Yeah, he definitely went easy on him.