Topic: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD

[ScouserAtHeart]

Buying Phillips may well be a good thing for Abu Dhabi, but people need to stop using him starting for England as a justification for how good he may be 

Getting picked in a starting 11 by an awful, inept ‘coach’ as Southgate, isn’t a point of reference to how good someone is.

Trent doesn't start for England. Sell him, he's useless

[Oskar]

For 42-45m buying Phillips is great business by City. You say every squad would like Hendo but Phillips is ahead of him at England and won’t be expecting to start week in week out at City. Them buying Phillips is a good thing though as they will be less likely to be in for Bellingham who is better than Hendo and Phillips.

Does that mean Walker, Trippier and Reece James are all better than Trent, then? Gareth Southgate seems to think so, not sure anyone should be putting too much faith in his judgement of a player.

It's not great business by City IMO, they could have signed a better player than Kalvin Phillips with the resources they have. But they can afford to spend big money on squad players and it doesn't carry as much of a consequence if it doesn't work out as it would for others.

[Robinred]

Firmino has let it be known he will take a reduction to stay. Milner has already taken a reduction in wages to stay. The equation isn't 'what could we afford to throw at Salah if we got rid?' but 'is their contribution to the squad (in the widest sense, including morale and camaraderie) worth their pay cheque?'

Well quite. And some posters are seemingly basing their posts on an assumption that Firmino is finished at the top level. I’d prefer to think that his fitness and form will return; he’s 30 not 34, and unlike Mane and Salah, has never relied on pace.

[markmywords]

We very rarely bring anyone into the club on more than around 120k a week. Nunez is reported to be on around that figure despite signing for potentially a club record fee. I think there's a few midfielders out there who could do a good job for us on somewhere around 80k a week on their first deal.

I never said anything about letting the captain go btw, but not sure I'd have been so quick to sign him up on the wages he's on when he's shown clear physical decline in recent seasons. I mean that's the main reason which is given to letting Mane and Salah go...

If you were in a situation where we either extend Hendo's contract on the terms he agreed to or let him go, what would you do...

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Well quite. And some posters are seemingly basing their posts on an assumption that Firmino is finished at the top level. I’d prefer to think that his fitness and form will return; he’s 30 not 34, and unlike Mane and Salah, has never relied on pace.

I just don't know what people have been watching these last few years - he might not rely on pace but he's increasingly injury prone, less explosive than he once was and less productive overall. I'm not sure any of those three counts can be labelled at Mane or Salah, bar perhaps the middle one for Mane to an extent.

If we retain him it's because he's a cheaper option, not a better one.

[Fordy]

Does that mean Walker, Trippier and Reece James are all better than Trent, then? Gareth Southgate seems to think so, not sure anyone should be putting too much faith in his judgement of a player.

It's not great business by City IMO, they could have signed a better player than Kalvin Phillips with the resources they have. But they can afford to spend big money on squad players and it doesn't carry as much of a consequence if it doesn't work out as it would for others.

The players mentioned are better defenders than Tent, not a better player. Southgate is defensive minded.

Look, Hendo is a leader but now getting on. We need to replace him hence why I feel we will go all out for Bellingham this and next season.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Of course. They're clearly great human beings and good footballers, but I'm not sure they were quite worth the wages we last renewed them at (Milner's previous contract, not the one he signed this summer as no one seems to have any real idea what it is) when we seem to be hard-balling everyone else about to turn 30 or already at that stage of their careers, and could do with renovating the midfield.

They are also LEADERS, something that money can rarely buy, be it in football, or any other area of life ...

[jillcwhomever]

I just don't know what people have been watching these last few years - he might not rely on pace but he's increasingly injury prone, less explosive than he once was and less productive overall. I'm not sure any of those three counts can be labelled at Mane or Salah, bar perhaps the middle one for Mane to an extent.

If we retain him it's because he's a cheaper option, not a better one.

As opposed to you who would destroy our wage structure and just throw money at Salah and Mane, regardless of what that does to the rest of the team. Your theory would destroy us as a club.

[DelTrotter]

The players mentioned are better defenders than Tent

  Yeah, no.

[PeterTheRed ...]

For 42-45m buying Phillips is great business by City. You say every squad would like Hendo but Phillips is ahead of him at England and won’t be expecting to start week in week out at City. Them buying Phillips is a good thing though as they will be less likely to be in for Bellingham who is better than Hendo and Phillips.

To be honest, Maguire is starting for England ...

[markmywords]

I just don't know what people have been watching these last few years - he might not rely on pace but he's increasingly injury prone, less explosive than he once was and less productive overall. I'm not sure any of those three counts can be labelled at Mane or Salah, bar perhaps the middle one for Mane to an extent.

If we retain him it's because he's a cheaper option, not a better one.

I think we are keeping him, in part, as he might adapt to being a squad player better than Mane.  Klopp doesn't really rotate that much, if we sign Nunez, Mane goes to the bench

Finances are only part of the reason, IMO,

[Red Cactii]

We very rarely bring anyone into the club on more than around 120k a week. Nunez is reported to be on around that figure despite signing for potentially a club record fee. I think there's a few midfielders out there who could do a good job for us on somewhere around 80k a week on their first deal.

Go on, name some then.

I never said anything about letting the captain go btw, but not sure I'd have been so quick to sign him up on the wages he's on when he's shown clear physical decline in recent seasons. I mean that's the main reason which is given to letting Mane and Salah go...

Pretty well established that Mane wanted a new challenge despite the club wanting to extend him, unless you were referring to the fact the supposed physical decline is why we're not prepared to offer them similar to what Bayern offered Mane?

[El Lobo]

For 42-45m buying Phillips is great business by City. You say every squad would like Hendo but Phillips is ahead of him at England and won’t be expecting to start week in week out at City. Them buying Phillips is a good thing though as they will be less likely to be in for Bellingham who is better than Hendo and Phillips.

[Oskar]

The players mentioned are better defenders than Tent, not a better player. Southgate is defensive minded.

Look, Hendo is a leader but now getting on. We need to replace him hence why I feel we will go all out for Bellingham this and next season.

Bollocks, you've just bought into a crap narrative that is used to cover for the fact that Southgate isn't a good enough manager to use a player like Trent effectively.

I don't care if Henderson is "getting on", Phillips isn't a better player regardless of what Gareth Southgate thinks.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

As opposed to you who would destroy our wage structure and just throw money at Salah and Mane, regardless of what that does to the rest of the team. Your theory would destroy us as a club.

I'm personally of the belief if we had acted early with Mane and Salah they'd have taken 300k per week to stay with us, whether that's right who knows, certainly not this late in the day anyway.

I wouldn't want to 'destroy' the wage structure but equally would have no issue if the club pays its best players more wages in order to keep them even if it has to sacrifice a few overpaid squad players to do so, we have plenty of young talent who I believe can step up.

Like I said earlier, it's all about choices, we've made the ones we've made and I'm fine with it but do wonder if there's a few different ones which could've been made along the way to put us in a better position to keep them, pointless carrying on the discussion any further really.

[Agent99]

I'm sure there is a good reason but if we don't want to fuck up our wage structure and have offered Salah £300k a week and he wants £400k why not just give him a £15m bonus for signing a 3 year contract? That will cover the wage difference over the three years.

[tubby]

I'm sure there is a good reason but if we don't want to fuck up our wage structure and have offered Salah £300k a week and he wants £400k why not just give him a £15m bonus for signing a 3 year contract? That will cover the wage difference over the three years.

Because then we're still paying him the same amount of money overall?  And others will look at Salah's example and ask for crazy bonuses for re-signing.

[Crosby Nick]

The players mentioned are better defenders than Tent

Are you saying any one of them would be a marquee signing?

[Barefoot Doctor]

Reckon we might be keeping an eye ion Georginio Rutter at Hoffenheim as a potential longer-term option. Really, really strong numbers in the Bundesliga considering he's only 20, scored eight goals last season which was his first where he got a decent amount of game time. Strong underlying numbers too, tall and left-footed but apparently equally good on his right. Shares an agent with Firmino too.

[Robinred]

I just don't know what people have been watching these last few years - he might not rely on pace but he's increasingly injury prone, less explosive than he once was and less productive overall. I'm not sure any of those three counts can be labelled at Mane or Salah, bar perhaps the middle one for Mane to an extent.

If we retain him it's because he's a cheaper option, not a better one.

I know what I’ve been watching - and there were a number of appearances this year (post Christmas) when Bobby made the difference, and was arguably our most influential player.

I honestly don’t see any point in making the assumption - which has become commonplace - that he’s finished. There are examples throughout the top level of players of his calibre re-finding their best form well into their 30s - Thomas Muller and Karim Benzema prime examples. It’s daft to write him off as you have imho.

[Barefoot Doctor]

I'm sure there is a good reason but if we don't want to fuck up our wage structure and have offered Salah £300k a week and he wants £400k why not just give him a £15m bonus for signing a 3 year contract? That will cover the wage difference over the three years.

Does it make a difference though? It's still paying him £400k a week, just with an altered structure - the other players are still going to know he's making double what they are. They won't differentiate between it being in a lump sum versus weekly payments.

[afc tukrish]

Are you saying any one of them would be a marquee signing?

Maybe a Marquis signing...

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I know what I’ve been watching - and there were a number of appearances this year (post Christmas) when Bobby made the difference, and was arguably our most influential player.

I honestly don’t see any point in making the assumption - which has become commonplace - that he’s finished. There are examples throughout the top level of players of his calibre re-finding their best form well into their 30s - Thomas Muller and Karim Benzema prime examples. It’s daft to write him off as you have imho.

I mean that's a massive stretch - he started 10 league games last season, six of which were after Christmas.

He was boss against an absolutely dreadful Southampton side and scored a few big goals in the CL but to call him our most influential player is just ridiculous at this stage. I don't think that's been the case on a remotely consistent basis for pushing on three years.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

There's been a lot of "what ifs" when it comes to Salah, but saying we should just get rid of up to 5 players, including our captain and vice captain and 4 of our midfielders, just so we can offer him exactly what he wants certainly tops the lot.

It's not that we're not offering him what he wants because we can't afford it, we absolutely could. We are instead choosing not to, likely for several reasons, so everything else is irrelevant and a complete non-factor.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

There's been a lot of "what ifs" when it comes to Salah, but saying we should just get rid of up to 5 players, including our captain and vice captain and 4 of our midfielders, just so we can offer him exactly what he wants certainly tops the lot.

We aren't offering him what he wants because we can't afford it, we absolutely could. We are instead choosing not to, likely for several reasons., So everything else is irrelevant and a complete non-factor.

It might top the lot if that's what was actually said.

[Red Cactii]

I know what I’ve been watching - and there were a number of appearances this year (post Christmas) when Bobby made the difference, and was arguably our most influential player.

I honestly don’t see any point in making the assumption - which has become commonplace - that he’s finished. There are examples throughout the top level of players of his calibre re-finding their best form well into their 30s - Thomas Muller and Karim Benzema prime examples. It’s daft to write him off as you have imho.

The Muller shout is a great one. I think Bobby has a lot more left in the tank and whilst I wouldn't begrudge him looking to finish his career elsewhere, it'd be good if we could have him around for another couple of seasons. He'll probably miss the Brazil squad for Qatar which could be huge for us, a nice rest could lead him into having a huge impact in the second half of the season.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

It might top the lot if that's what was actually said.

You said we should be using other players wages to top up Salah's and Mane's and name checked Henderson, Milner, Keita, Ox and Firmino. Then that we could replace them with with players on lesser wages.

[rawcusk8]

Gift game is real strong and very apt

[LallanaInPyjamas]

You said we should be using other players wages to top up Salah's and Mane's and name checked Henderson, Milner, Keita, Ox and Firmino. Then that we could replace them with with players on lesser wages.

Milner, Ox, Firmino and Keita out, keep Mane and Salah, one or two midfielders in.

Not quite losing five players and keeping Salah is it? Made a cool post though I guess.

[Hazell]

You said we should be using other players wages to top up Salah's and Mane's and name checked Henderson, Milner, Keita, Ox and Firmino. Then that we could replace them with with players on lesser wages.

Ha ha that's exactly how I read it as well. Some mad shouts in here today.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Reckon we might be keeping an eye ion Georginio Rutter at Hoffenheim as a potential longer-term option. Really, really strong numbers in the Bundesliga considering he's only 20, scored eight goals last season which was his first where he got a decent amount of game time. Strong underlying numbers too, tall and left-footed but apparently equally good on his right. Shares an agent with Firmino too.

I've noticed him this season, but can't say that I've seen enough of him to make a proper judgement. Certainly looks talented. More of an out-and-out striker, but that could be only in the few games I have seen him ...

[Ghost Town]

And yet we challenge for honours and get over 90 points. Obviously, this is 'despite' them. If they are so superfluous why have their contracts been extended or in the process of being extended (Ox aside)? Let me guess, it's because Klopp, the coaching staff and FSG are stupid.

What Klopp, the coaching staff and FSG fail to understand is that if ONLY they listened to fans on RAWK and Twitter we'd be guaranteedto  win the quintuple every season - the four trophies and the transfer trophy.

Why, why, why oh why, oh why are they so dumb and stubborn as to not to listen to fans?

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Milner, Ox, Firmino and Keita out, keep Mane and Salah, one or two midfielders in.

Not quite losing five players and keeping Salah is it? Made a cool post though I guess.

Not quite losing five players no, but that's only because you've now seemingly decided Henderson can stay, which I'm sure he'd be thankful for

Ox, Keita and Firmino also have a year left on their contract, so you can't just decide they're "out". And you've also committed to significantly worsening our depth.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Not quite losing five players no, but that's only because you've now seemingly decided Henderson can stay, which I'm sure he'd be thankful for

You could quite easily have three players on probably half that combined total for a similar output. But that wasn't really my point, which was I'd sooner have let Firmino, Keita, Milner and Ox's contracts run out and use their wages to bump Salah and Mane up while bringing a midfielder or two in.

That's idealistically talking of course, who knows whether it'd even have been possible, but every choice we make in terms of renewing or not has a knock-on affect on another player, too. I'm not sure we've been getting that as right as we have bringing new talent into the club during Klopp's reign.

Disagree with me all you want, just don't misquote me like a snide. Might be normal behaviour by some on here but you're better than that.

[BER]

Milner, Ox, Firmino and Keita out, keep Mane and Salah, one or two midfielders in.

Not quite losing five players and keeping Salah is it? Made a cool post though I guess.

And who are you selling to pay the increased wages that Alisson, VVD and TAA now want?

[markmywords]

Because then we're still paying him the same amount of money overall?  And others will look at Salah's example and ask for crazy bonuses for re-signing.

I think we make too much of this as a consideration generally. ( I know you are merely answering a question) I don't think other players benchmark purely other LFC players during negotiation.  IF we as a club told ourselves not to pay Gini 300k (whether he was worth it or not) as that would mean Salah would ask for it, then we were proven wrong within months as Salah seemingly still asked for it ANYWAY.  I don't think Salah adjusted his wage demands by as much 50p based on the Gini situation and I doubt VVD or anyone else will change what they ask based on what happened to Mane, each individual negotiation is different

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Disagree with me all you want, just don't misquote me like a snide. Might be normal behaviour by some on here but you're better than that.

I'm not mis-quoting or being a snide (at least deliberately). I'm just taking it from another of your posts..

Ox, Keita, and Milner and Hendo in footballing terms. We've been paying them over 500k a week basic yet it's widely discussed on here how the midfield is the weakest part of our team.

[Ghost Town]

B.)  The argument for this would land better if Mane and Salah hadn't already just asked for more money than anyone else currently at LFC. What is to stop VVD, eventually Diaz, Trent and Allison doing the same in a yr or 2. If they did we would have let Salah and Mane go for potentially no good reason, if this was one the main reasons.

Sure new players may ask for parity with Mane's potential new LFC deal,  but we generally sign younger players like Nunez/jota/diaz who are unlikely, we rarely go for Thiago types transfers.

Are you familar with the concept of the Overton window? If not look it up. The whole nature of wages, whether there is a wage structure in place or not, is that the highest wages given will move the wages Overton window upwards. Both intra- and inter- organisation.

Sure, giving Salah a gazillion pounds a week won't mean that Nunez and Carvalho and Ramsay will ask for parity upon signing; but it will mean that their agents will ask for more than they would have if the top wage at the club was lower.

The top wages have an effect upon all the other wages.

So I don't think these are the reasons we let Mane and might let Salah go.  I think we may a tactical and squad morale based decision.   Nunez was going to play and Firmino is more likely to accept being on the bench than Mane. For all the hype about a 5 great forwards last yr, Klopp had a clear preference for this 1st team forwards and their will be a clear preference next season, and it may not have included Mane, now that Nunez has joined

Er...no, we let Mane go because he wanted to leave. Maybe that was wage-related but maybe he just wanted a new challenge. We might well let Salah go for similar reasons. It's all probably rather simple and there's no point in inventing spurious reasons like 'squad morale' for what is in essence just the normal turnover of players.

It's weird (and this is a general commetn, not aimed at you) but in theory everyone accepts that players come and go and the squad make-up will change and turn over as the years pass. Everyone says they know that...until a player leaves and suddenly for some the 'natural turnover of players' doesn't apply anymore.

Players moving on is pretty normal

[Red Cactii]

I think we make too much of this as a consideration generally. ( I know you are merely answering a question) I don't think other players benchmark purely other LFC players during negotiation.  IF we as a club told ourselves not to pay Gini 300k (whether he was worth it or not) as that would mean Salah would ask for it, then we were proven wrong within months as Salah seemingly still asked for it ANYWAY.  I don't think Salah adjusted his wage demands by as much 50p based on the Gini situation and I doubt VVD or anyone else will change what they ask based on what happened to Mane, each individual negotiation is different

I get the point you're trying to make here, but comparing Gini who is a good midfielder against Salah who is one of the best 5 attackers in the world isn't a fair comparison. Comparing Salah against other players in our squad who are up there in the conversation as being best in their position (Alisson, Virgil Trent etc) would be more apt, but even then most of the higher earners in European football are likely to be attackers.

But yes, Mo and his reps aren't going to be walking into negotiations with a dossier saying "you gave Virgil x/week, I want more than that" but I imagine any player's representatives would have a decent idea of what most of the squad are on (if they're doing their job properly).

[newterp]

Are you familar with the concept of the Overton window? If not look it up. The whole nature of wages, whether there is a wage structure in place or not, is that the highest wages given will move the wages Overton window upwards. Both intra- and inter- organisation.

Sure, giving Salah a gazillion pounds a week won't mean that Nunez and Carvalho and Ramsay will ask for parity upon signing; but it will mean that their agents will ask for more than they would have if the top wage at the club was lower.

The top wages have an effect upon all the other wages.

I'm baffled why people are twisting themselves into knots to ignore this basic premise of how a wage structure works in all business.