Author Topic: Lawless Liverpool?  (Read 124735 times)

Offline Statto Red

  • Hung like a sperm whale but only around the middle. Proud owner of a couple of spare arms, although is pits pong like the bins, not very appealing. Bambi on ice.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,345
  • Kloppite
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #880 on: August 29, 2022, 02:06:18 pm »
Drugs are legal in The Netherlands, Amsterdam has a load of cannabis cafes, [one of the reasons a load of us, are made up we got Ajax in the champions league ;D], does The Netherlands still have issues with criminal gangs & stuff?
#Sausages

Offline So… Howard Philips

  • Penile Toupé Extender. Notoriously work-shy, copper-bottomed pervert.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,086
  • All I want for Christmas is a half and half scarf
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #881 on: August 29, 2022, 02:15:25 pm »
Drugs are legal in The Netherlands, Amsterdam has a load of cannabis cafes, [one of the reasons a load of us, are made up we got Ajax in the champions league ;D], does The Netherlands still have issues with criminal gangs & stuff?

Cannabis is legal when smoked in a cafe. Laws still apply for personal possession of cannabis and I assume other drugs are illegal.

As to organised crime Curtis Warren is due out soon but I’m sure the Dutch won’t welcome him back.

What will happen in Liverpool is another matter.

Offline Statto Red

  • Hung like a sperm whale but only around the middle. Proud owner of a couple of spare arms, although is pits pong like the bins, not very appealing. Bambi on ice.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,345
  • Kloppite
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #882 on: August 29, 2022, 02:17:21 pm »
Cannabis is legal when smoked in a cafe. Laws still apply for personal possession of cannabis and I assume other drugs are illegal.

As to organised crime Curtis Warren is due out soon but I’m sure the Dutch won’t welcome him back.

What will happen in Liverpool is another matter.

I see.
#Sausages

Offline Indomitable_Carp

  • Asterixophile
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,222
  • From the depths of Sevvy Park lake
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #883 on: August 29, 2022, 02:20:52 pm »
@SOS- That is a spot on summary of the way organised crime operates.

Drugs are legal in The Netherlands, Amsterdam has a load of cannabis cafes, [one of the reasons a load of us, are made up we got Ajax in the champions league ;D], does The Netherlands still have issues with criminal gangs & stuff?

Drugs are legal in the Netherlands?!! Ummmm......no they´re not.

Cannabis is decriminialised (different from legalised) in the Netherlands - as it is here in Catalonia as well. All other drugs are illegal. Decriminalisation can bring some benefits. Portugal for example is a country that has decriminalised the personal use of all drugs, from cannabis to heroin. As a policy it has been a resounding success - they have seen a decrease in the use of every type of drug bar cannabis, which has seen a small incease. Drug related crimes and deaths have also dipped,and they saw an upsurge in people using services to combat addiction. However, as in the case of the Netherlands, or Catalonia, it is a half way house that also retains many of the negative side effects of organised crime, because while possession and personal usage might be decriminalised, the supply is still largely illegal. It is a similar thing with prostitution in the Netherlands. It is decriminalised. There have been some advances in terms of the safety of prostitutes, from STIs as well as in terms of physical safety (i.e. not having to get into some car alone with some wierdo). However, there is still a very large market for trafficked women into the Netherlands.

Organised crime is massive in the Netherlands for the main reason that Rotterdam is one of the worlds 10 largest ports, and is the biggest port in Europe by some margin, and Europe is in turn one of the world largest markets for illegal drugs. Liverpool´s position as a port is also why it is a centre of organised crime, with the United Kingdom being one of the worlds largest per capita markets for illegal drugs.

The Netherlands is also the worlds largest producer of MDMA.



Cannabis is legal when smoked in a cafe. Laws still apply for personal possession of cannabis and I assume other drugs are illegal.

As to organised crime Curtis Warren is due out soon but I’m sure the Dutch won’t welcome him back.

What will happen in Liverpool is another matter.

The usage of cannabis is not legal anywhere in the Netherlands. It is simply tolerated within the confines of cafes, or at home. That doesn´t mean it is legal per se. It is more of a gray area
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 02:25:30 pm by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline Statto Red

  • Hung like a sperm whale but only around the middle. Proud owner of a couple of spare arms, although is pits pong like the bins, not very appealing. Bambi on ice.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,345
  • Kloppite
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #884 on: August 29, 2022, 02:25:41 pm »
I see, it's ok to take cannabis in cafe's or at home, but get caught taking it anywhere else then you're in trouble, & other drugs are still banned
#Sausages

Offline So… Howard Philips

  • Penile Toupé Extender. Notoriously work-shy, copper-bottomed pervert.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,086
  • All I want for Christmas is a half and half scarf
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #885 on: August 29, 2022, 02:26:35 pm »
I see, it's ok to take cannabis in cafe's or at home, but get caught taking it anywhere else then you're in trouble, & other drugs are still banned

I think that’s it. Turn a blind eye to social use but not to organised crime.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

  • Asterixophile
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,222
  • From the depths of Sevvy Park lake
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #886 on: August 29, 2022, 02:29:45 pm »
I see, it's ok to take cannabis in cafe's or at home, but get caught taking it anywhere else then you're in trouble, & other drugs are still banned

Pretty much. I mean whether the police actual enforce smoking it in public I am not sure. Probably not as stringently as some others places. But yes, it is not actual legal, so you can still get in legal trouble for being caught with it in certain circumstances (for example, as in Catalonia, I believe they also have an "acceptable" number of plants you can grow before you get in trouble). And other drugs are still very much banned. Although again, how much police enforce the use of the things like ecstacy I am not sure. In the Netherlands they have drug testing in clubs, so you can know that your drugs are actually what they are meant to be (e.g. MDMA) and not some other horrible stuff being sold as MDMA - another unfortunate effect of prohibition, and the main reason for ectasy-related fatalities (in terms of danger - esctasy isn´t so bad - its all the other unkown stuff that criminals put into powder and pills that kills people)

Offline ToneLa

  • you know the rules but I make the game.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,453
  • I AM FURIOUS, RED
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #887 on: August 29, 2022, 02:32:16 pm »
I think Dutch gangs still have links to the Mexican cartel and such, so might depend how you want to slice it

For cocaine, probably tied into the same dark areas we want to eradicate as it's a trade that profiteers off death and misery

But they don't AFAIK have to import MDMA, perhaps some raw materials? - different level entirely to cocaine


-

Some great posts since my last one (Spion mate you doing counselling work is just - you're great, Thank You)

To me there's this layer of let's just call them murderous scum and there's also this layer of political mismanagement (let's call them murderous scum too) which leads to the societal reasons behind people taking drugs

But like, this is a good page: https://www.drugwise.org.uk/how-much-crime-is-drug-related/

The reasons behind it seem deep as any rabbit hole. It is shocking to me heroin could be a better alternative than reality for anybody.

I think "drugs" as a blanket label, that level of understanding led to the war on drugs in the first place. Cocaine seems to me, the worst drug, if I could magically eradicate one, Charlie you're my winner, goodbye!

But if we have fans going to the Dam to get stoned they're not in the same boat as Curtis Warren (literally one hopes)

Esketamine is somewhat available on the NHS and MDMA and psylocybin emerge further to help ameliorate trauma and depression

I think I'm processing it at a societal level, and basically, what we're talking mainly about is violent criminal scum profiteering off human misery - it's hard to parse, let alone solve (what a heartwarming thread this is though - not sarcasm, its good to see real thought and care put into the discussions)

You can want people to be free, but some people throw that away.

I think there's less excuse for owning a gun than having a drug in your home though.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 02:38:28 pm by ToneLa »

Offline Indomitable_Carp

  • Asterixophile
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,222
  • From the depths of Sevvy Park lake
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #888 on: August 29, 2022, 02:47:44 pm »
^^^You are right that there is a world of difference in terms of the supply routes of MDMA and cocaine. MDMA is basically made in-house in labs in Europe, where it is then exported. The supply chain as a result is much shorter. Organised criminals in Europe do make money from MDMA, and people do get killed as a result.

However, as you say, this is a far cry from cocaine, which has to pass through a network of horrific organsied crime in South and Central America, responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands, before it is even reaches Europe. It depends on the production and extraction of the chemicals from coca plants which grow in tropical regions, with the train of death and destruction then stemming from there.

Likewise, the heroin supply chain is a lot longer, albiet this time originating from poppies in places like Afghanistan and Burma. That said, the drug itself is, as everyone knows, more damaging. But the supply chain is less damaging then that of cocaine.

Things like LSD are likewise not big money makers for organised crime. That is more likely to have been put together by some hippie eccentric.

"Drugs" is a broad term. Some are more damging then others on a personal health level, and some are more damaging then others on a supply chain and societal level.

On a physical health and addiction level, there is a well established scale on the harmfulness of drugs:



Notice where alcohol is in comparison to some of the others that are less socially acceptable. Likewise, the rise of cocaine use these last ten years is I think a massive problem. I personally despise the stuff, even moreso since I married a South American. But it is at a very high level of social acceptability, despite its illegality. But it is a problem that prohibition is doing nothing to combat, and is if anything making it worse (it is certainly not making it better!)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 02:58:04 pm by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,505
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #889 on: August 29, 2022, 06:48:40 pm »
I think Dutch gangs still have links to the Mexican cartel and such, so might depend how you want to slice it

For cocaine, probably tied into the same dark areas we want to eradicate as it's a trade that profiteers off death and misery

But they don't AFAIK have to import MDMA, perhaps some raw materials? - different level entirely to cocaine


-

Some great posts since my last one (Spion mate you doing counselling work is just - you're great, Thank You)

To me there's this layer of let's just call them murderous scum and there's also this layer of political mismanagement (let's call them murderous scum too) which leads to the societal reasons behind people taking drugs

But like, this is a good page: https://www.drugwise.org.uk/how-much-crime-is-drug-related/

The reasons behind it seem deep as any rabbit hole. It is shocking to me heroin could be a better alternative than reality for anybody.

I think "drugs" as a blanket label, that level of understanding led to the war on drugs in the first place. Cocaine seems to me, the worst drug, if I could magically eradicate one, Charlie you're my winner, goodbye!

But if we have fans going to the Dam to get stoned they're not in the same boat as Curtis Warren (literally one hopes)

Esketamine is somewhat available on the NHS and MDMA and psylocybin emerge further to help ameliorate trauma and depression

I think I'm processing it at a societal level, and basically, what we're talking mainly about is violent criminal scum profiteering off human misery - it's hard to parse, let alone solve (what a heartwarming thread this is though - not sarcasm, its good to see real thought and care put into the discussions)

You can want people to be free, but some people throw that away.

I think there's less excuse for owning a gun than having a drug in your home though.
Apologies for highlighting just one line from your post, but I think it's really central to the drugs issue.

Human beings are avoidant creatures. Naturally, we seek out pleasure and avoid pain. Be that physical or emotional pain. Thing is, the world we live in is so dysfunctional and most of us struggle to cope. Problems come in so many guises. There is also lack of self confidence and esteem. Anxiety, worry, insecurity etc...

Drugs (including alcohol) can become a crutch. They can be many people's avoidance strategy. Their coping mechanism. Life can feel so utterly depressing that being off your face is actually a preferred alternative.

When I talk with people with drug problems, I always try to dig down to see what they are avoiding. The drug problem is usually a symptom of something deeper. I used to be alcohol dependent in order to go out socially. My problems with alcohol were a symptom, not the actual problem. Now I've addressed the actual problems I had, I can go without the drink now.

Basically, most of us are running away from something. Be it emotional or problems with day to day life. Drugs are a maladaptive coping and avoidance strategy. They can, for a short time, block out a whole world of pain, hence their attraction. Once you get stuck in that cycle you are constantly chasing that moment where life feels livable, even if you are destroying yourself and your life in the process.

I'm actually one of the most avoidant people I've even known, so I'm amazed that I never became an addict. I did use some drugs to put me in a short-lived 'better' place and I absolutely abused alcohol for many years, but I never became an addict. To this day I'm not sure how I escaped going down that route, because pretty much anything felt preferable to my reality.

But anyway, talk with any addict and it soon becomes clear that the addiction, although horribly destructive, is not actually the root issue. It's a symptom of underlying issues. Those underlying issues take many forms too. As you suggest, they are one deep rabbit hole. In fact, I'd suggest a warren rather than a hole, because it can be that complex.

For me, this aspect of human nature brings us back to why we can never eradicate drugs. People will always need their escape. Human beings will always need their personal crutch. Some manage to find adaptive ways to cope with their lives, but many others don't. There will always be sociopathic parasites who will exploit this human frailty, offering their little bags of poison to those looking for momentary escape from their inner or outside world reality.

So few of us are comfortable with our reality. I've wrestled with mine all my life. Drugs can offer the avoidant an escape of sorts, but it comes at great cost eventually. In the meantime, there will never be a shortage of parasitic dealers looking to exploit your pain, your anxiety, your lack of confidence etc for their own ends.
Beware The County Road Headlockers.

Offline Black Bull Nova

  • emo
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,138
  • The cheesy side of town
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #890 on: August 30, 2022, 02:54:09 pm »
Good post above,


I always find it interesting to contrast those drug users who are seen as a problem who usually are those who aim for a high to avoid a low (and then aim for a high to maintain a high). The low often arises from a life which often lacks hope or has roots in pain. This is as opposed to those whom seek a high purely in itself (and, yes, sometimes such people are also rooted in need)


Drug taking, as in Sex and Drugs and Rock and Roll, is often (whilst not glamourised) seen as something dangerous and edgy (unlike a crack den in a deserted flat)


Both the desperate of Croxteth (yes, I know, but that's the place I know best) and the 'Pete Doherty' drug users need to be addressed in different ways which suggest that no one way of approaching this is enough. Indeed there are other types of user as well.


I do think the richer drug users get more of a free pass though because they can afford the drugs (and so do not need to commit crimes to get the high) and we often see them interviewed on television in a way that we would never see the other type of drug user mentioned before (and they can afford the clinics as well)
aarf, aarf, aarf.

Offline cloggypop

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,297
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #891 on: August 31, 2022, 02:51:39 pm »
Drugs are legal in The Netherlands, Amsterdam has a load of cannabis cafes, [one of the reasons a load of us, are made up we got Ajax in the champions league ;D], does The Netherlands still have issues with criminal gangs & stuff?

Drugs are not legal here which is why there's loads of issues with criminal gangs & stuff.

Offline Black Bull Nova

  • emo
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,138
  • The cheesy side of town
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #892 on: September 1, 2022, 01:10:16 pm »
It is shocking to me heroin could be a better alternative than reality for anybody.


I would agree but then there are many aspects of other humans and their behaviour that baffle me daily.


I suppose there is no way of appreciating this unless;


a) you've tried Heroin (I have not)
b) you have not experienced the reality of the lives of those who take it (and that includes their physical make-up and their life experience from birth)


I've seen many, many people who are right at the bottom of the barrel who have said clearly they want to die but don't want suicide. Heroin will get you there without you really being aware of it (and most of those who said they wanted to die did eventually)



« Last Edit: September 1, 2022, 01:14:28 pm by Black Bull Nova »
aarf, aarf, aarf.

Online liverbloke

  • Prototype RAWK Genius. Founder of stickysheets.com
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,249
  • i neither know nor care
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #893 on: September 1, 2022, 03:53:10 pm »
there's a lot of 'recreational' drug users who definitely don't get it

ANYHOO... he said getting bored with the to-ing and fro-ing of the drugs argument

watched this on yt and can't think that, as exploitative as it is, maybe the police (remember them - they used to walk the streets) should do more to stop these evil scumbags from 'owning' estates as their own territory and making no-go areas

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/J9OjI9vEKkg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/J9OjI9vEKkg</a>


Quote from: Lee0-3Liv
Who would have thought liverblokes no draws idea would not be his worst idea of the weekend

Offline Black Bull Nova

  • emo
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,138
  • The cheesy side of town
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #894 on: September 1, 2022, 04:07:18 pm »
there's a lot of 'recreational' drug users who definitely don't get it

ANYHOO... he said getting bored with the to-ing and fro-ing of the drugs argument

watched this on yt and can't think that, as exploitative as it is, maybe the police (remember them - they used to walk the streets) should do more to stop these evil scumbags from 'owning' estates as their own territory and making no-go areas

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/J9OjI9vEKkg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/J9OjI9vEKkg</a>


I thought I knew it well round there but had not realised certain 'patches' had got as bad as that.


I had meeting nearby a few years ago with someone who had come up from London. For some reason he walked from Huyton Station, through there, in a suit with a big briefcase. He probably does not know how lucky he was. I did ask him whether he'd encountered anyone on his way (he got lost). If I could remember who he was I'd send him that and send shivers down his spine if I was cruel. I think they have a big burly bouncer on the shop nearby in the daytime.
« Last Edit: September 1, 2022, 04:08:53 pm by Black Bull Nova »
aarf, aarf, aarf.

Offline courty61

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,752
  • Never Buy The S*n
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #895 on: September 1, 2022, 04:40:02 pm »
CCTV released in relation to the killing of Olivia. Some scumbags are protecting these guys, it's a joke.
77, 78, 81, 84, 05, 19

Offline Hedley Lamarr

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,841
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #896 on: September 4, 2022, 02:43:06 pm »
Two men arrested, including one held on suspicion of murder.

Offline TSC

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,061
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #897 on: September 4, 2022, 03:04:43 pm »
Two men arrested, including one held on suspicion of murder.

34 year old arrested for murder and attempted murder and 41 year old arrested for assisting an offender.  Arrested in Runcorn apparently (sky news)

Offline NightDancer

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
  • Bleep Bloop Bleep Bloop
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #898 on: September 4, 2022, 03:09:08 pm »
Two men arrested, including one held on suspicion of murder.


Just on the radio news now saying a 34 year old has been arrested and  charged with murder with a second charge of attempted murder.

In similarly shocking events, it was in the same news report about a violent attack in a house in Dublin in Ireland overnight where an 18 year old girl/young woman and her two 8 year old siblings were killed in what was described by police who arrived at the house as a then still ongoing highly violent event.

A teenage boy in the same house was taken to hospital for injuries and one man was arrested on the scene for the three killings and the attack on the teenage boy. 
What's your pleasure?

Online Andy82lfc

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,476
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #899 on: September 5, 2022, 11:33:54 am »
Really hope they have caught him. Also if so I'm very surprised he had not fled the country already and just been bedding down in Runcorn.

Offline courty61

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,752
  • Never Buy The S*n
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #900 on: September 5, 2022, 11:43:20 am »
Someone else arrested, was on the M42 by Leamington Spa
77, 78, 81, 84, 05, 19

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,505
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #901 on: September 5, 2022, 06:27:52 pm »
On Granada Reports just now the police have finally done what I've been saying they should have been doing for years. Namely, calling these drug/OCG scum child groomers and abusers.

It's absolutely sickening the way they groom children into a grotesquely violent life. Kids on bikes with guns. It's madness, and they are doing the dirty work of disgusting groomers and abusers living in the leafy suburbs pretending to be upstanding citizens.

It's about time these scumbags were named for what they are, and deglamourised.
Beware The County Road Headlockers.

Offline Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 44,803
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #902 on: September 5, 2022, 07:37:56 pm »
On Granada Reports just now the police have finally done what I've been saying they should have been doing for years. Namely, calling these drug/OCG scum child groomers and abusers.

It's absolutely sickening the way they groom children into a grotesquely violent life. Kids on bikes with guns. It's madness, and they are doing the dirty work of disgusting groomers and abusers living in the leafy suburbs pretending to be upstanding citizens.

It's about time these scumbags were named for what they are, and deglamourised.

Aye. They've created child soldiers to fight a proxy war, exploiting kids' dreams whilst they stay out of the muck. Well their hands are plenty dirty.
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,505
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #903 on: September 5, 2022, 08:22:54 pm »
Aye. They've created child soldiers to fight a proxy war, exploiting kids' dreams whilst they stay out of the muck. Well their hands are plenty dirty.
I've never understood why the authorities have never really used psychological tactics to alter public perceptions of criminals. It's used extensively in politics and in the media to shape perceptions and attitudes.

Drug peddlers have been legitimised and glamourised in popular culture, as has the use of guns. It's about time perceptions were shaped differently. Calling drug peddlers out for the child groomers and abusers they are is a good start and should be encouraged at every opportunity.
Beware The County Road Headlockers.

Offline So… Howard Philips

  • Penile Toupé Extender. Notoriously work-shy, copper-bottomed pervert.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,086
  • All I want for Christmas is a half and half scarf
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #904 on: September 5, 2022, 10:32:27 pm »
I've never understood why the authorities have never really used psychological tactics to alter public perceptions of criminals. It's used extensively in politics and in the media to shape perceptions and attitudes.

Drug peddlers have been legitimised and glamourised in popular culture, as has the use of guns. It's about time perceptions were shaped differently. Calling drug peddlers out for the child groomers and abusers they are is a good start and should be encouraged at every opportunity.

I remember during the trial of one of the gang that was responsible for the murder of Rhys Jones it came out that during the course of the investigation police had bugged their home and recorded the crook’s scummy parents giving him advice on avoiding capture.

And I’m sure that when they were convicted one of them was whingeing about ‘it was only some kid’ or words to that effect.

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,505
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #905 on: September 5, 2022, 11:14:33 pm »
I remember during the trial of one of the gang that was responsible for the murder of Rhys Jones it came out that during the course of the investigation police had bugged their home and recorded the crook’s scummy parents giving him advice on avoiding capture.

And I’m sure that when they were convicted one of them was whingeing about ‘it was only some kid’ or words to that effect.
That element live in a completely different subculture to the rest of society. I'm sure I'm far from alone on here in having seen the entire cycle play out in the community. Scummy parents who don't give a shit, having babies and dragging them up. They go off the rails very quickly and go on a downward spiral into crime and drugs. The authorities only really get involved late in the already entrenched dysfunctional process, when it's often far too late.

When I counselled young people it became very clear to me that there are some really dark subcultures that we all live alongside daily. There are cultures within a culture. Worlds within a world, if that makes sense.
The Rhys Jones case shone a light on one such world, as is this latest tragic case now.
« Last Edit: September 5, 2022, 11:16:55 pm by Son of Spion »
Beware The County Road Headlockers.

Offline Black Bull Nova

  • emo
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,138
  • The cheesy side of town
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #906 on: September 5, 2022, 11:24:22 pm »
I've never understood why the authorities have never really used psychological tactics to alter public perceptions of criminals. It's used extensively in politics and in the media to shape perceptions and attitudes.

Drug peddlers have been legitimised and glamourised in popular culture, as has the use of guns. It's about time perceptions were shaped differently. Calling drug peddlers out for the child groomers and abusers they are is a good start and should be encouraged at every opportunity.


Maybe when we start seeing things like 'Peaky Blinders' for what they really were we can make some progress in that regard, they were exactly the same in terms of violence against innocent parties and using young kids. And don't get me started on how Americans portray what are essentially murdering scum.
aarf, aarf, aarf.

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,505
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #907 on: September 5, 2022, 11:38:29 pm »

Maybe when we start seeing things like 'Peaky Blinders' for what they really were we can make some progress in that regard, they were exactly the same in terms of violence against innocent parties and using young kids. And don't get me started on how Americans portray what are essentially murdering scum.
I never watched that programme, but I know what you mean. TV has glamourised scumbags and their behaviour for a long time and it's become woven into real life culture. Kids actually think they are gangsters now, and some even have real guns.

Popular culture has a hell of a lot to answer for. It's not the only factor, of course, but it does play a very big role.

Beware The County Road Headlockers.

Offline So… Howard Philips

  • Penile Toupé Extender. Notoriously work-shy, copper-bottomed pervert.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,086
  • All I want for Christmas is a half and half scarf
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #908 on: September 6, 2022, 08:32:05 am »
I never watched that programme, but I know what you mean. TV has glamourised scumbags and their behaviour for a long time and it's become woven into real life culture. Kids actually think they are gangsters now, and some even have real guns.

Popular culture has a hell of a lot to answer for. It's not the only factor, of course, but it does play a very big role.

I think there’s always been a morbid fascination with violent criminals.

Look at the crowds cheering on highwaymen, albeit on the way to the gallows, through to the ‘respect’ given to the Twins.

And basically Peaky  Blinders was a bit of a fancy dress party featuring a lot of ‘slow walking’ down grimy streets.

Online liverbloke

  • Prototype RAWK Genius. Founder of stickysheets.com
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,249
  • i neither know nor care
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #909 on: September 6, 2022, 08:50:23 am »
black bull and spion - yes the glamourisation of crime has always been a bug bear with me

never mind the little liverpool gangsters that think they are 'big joey' talking about the mafia all the time as if it gives them a fucking hard on - but maybe it does

television is full of crime drama and that's because we as a species seem fascinated by it

but peaky blinders, as said, was just crime and violence porn - might as well had tarantino directing it

it definitely does play a part in society as fictionalising horrendous crime lessens its real-life impact

look on google for real crime photos and no matter how well done those scenes are for a movie or tv show, they don't come near to the actual horror of those images

does this glamourisation lead some to be criminals and join gangs? i'd say definitely it does but as spion alludes to, it'd only be a small part

my bug bear is more the fact that a lot of very naive 'normal' everyday people who watch these programmes tend to think of the crime community as something cool or sexy or 'not that bad really as 'he' was only trying to look after his family and was misunderstood or didn't get the breaks etc etc'

these scum that led to the shooting that took that poor girl's life are not cool, not sexy and not misunderstood - they are a low life that exists on another level that does not understand human compassion or humanity

there's an old adage that if a lion spoke english then you still wouldn't be able to have a conversation with it because its way of thinking would be so different from yours - that is how it is with these scumbags


Quote from: Lee0-3Liv
Who would have thought liverblokes no draws idea would not be his worst idea of the weekend

Offline ianburns252

  • RAWK Economist not the MP spelling and Crosby background differentiate
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,040
  • Gentleman in the streets; freak in the spreadsheet
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #910 on: September 6, 2022, 09:06:10 am »
I come across this a lot with people I know who talk about "the feds" and things like that - half the time you are some kid who smoke a joint every so often, you aren't a gangster, you aren't dodging armed police, you aren't some anti establishment hero being held down by the man.

It is considered "cool" to rally against authority (I don't mean this in a doffing my cap way and not holding people to account, rather the idea of "getting on over" or "sticking it to the man") and with the deck being stacked against many there is a feeling of "if you can't beat the system then fuck the system".

Kids get drawn into these things slowly - go and rob some beers from Tesco, just hold this ounce for me, oh you couldn't deliver this stuff. Then it becomes "if you are working this turf for me you need to protect yourself" and so they start carrying knives and that and once you tip over that edge then you almost can't get out.

What I've seen recently is the rise of "gentleman criminals" - friends who do take coke and then like have said how over the last 10 years the people doing it seem to have transitioned from being "people you don't fuck" with to "people who say please, thank you, ask you how your day has been...but you still don't fuck with" which puts an almost honourable veneer on things so it seems more acceptable to grab a bag for a night out which increases the market and so needs more of these kids acting as runners so more get recruited.

I don't think legalisation across the board will work, you can't lock them all up, so it has to start from the bottom but increasing opportunities for the disadvantaged, providing better social services so that children who are risk get identified early and the parents are supported to try and help overall or the children are protected if that isn't going to work.

Maybe even change the message - rather than "we are all doomed because the Tories/system/world has fucked us" it should be "I know things are bad but if we work together then we can make it work for everyone"

Offline Indomitable_Carp

  • Asterixophile
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,222
  • From the depths of Sevvy Park lake
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #911 on: September 6, 2022, 09:46:47 am »
Some great posts in here.

I come across this a lot with people I know who talk about "the feds" and things like that - half the time you are some kid who smoke a joint every so often, you aren't a gangster, you aren't dodging armed police, you aren't some anti establishment hero being held down by the man.

That one really does my tits in. I don´t think its said in Liverpool (although that may have changed since I moved away), but I know its said in London and the like. If ever you wanted an example of how American-style TV and cultural glammour of crime has filtered into the UK - it is British kids calling non-federal British police "The Feds".

I know Britain has its own way of glamourising crime, as people here have very eloquently pointed out, but that one is a nonsensical rip off straight out of Goodfellas or US gangster rap or whatever it may be.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 69,807
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #912 on: September 6, 2022, 10:06:29 am »
I never watched that programme, but I know what you mean. TV has glamourised scumbags and their behaviour for a long time and it's become woven into real life culture. Kids actually think they are gangsters now, and some even have real guns.

Popular culture has a hell of a lot to answer for. It's not the only factor, of course, but it does play a very big role.



Gangsters have been glamourised since before I was alive

The ones in Chicago, the Krays, Liverpool gangsters - all over the place - there is a weird fascination with them and it's not even a remotely recent thing.

1812 was the first reference (In Scicily) apparantly
Poor.

Offline ianburns252

  • RAWK Economist not the MP spelling and Crosby background differentiate
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,040
  • Gentleman in the streets; freak in the spreadsheet
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #913 on: September 6, 2022, 11:47:17 am »
Some great posts in here.

That one really does my tits in. I don´t think its said in Liverpool (although that may have changed since I moved away), but I know its said in London and the like. If ever you wanted an example of how American-style TV and cultural glammour of crime has filtered into the UK - it is British kids calling non-federal British police "The Feds".

I know Britain has its own way of glamourising crime, as people here have very eloquently pointed out, but that one is a nonsensical rip off straight out of Goodfellas or US gangster rap or whatever it may be.

I first heard it at a psytrance night in Sheffield - although now that I say where it was it makes more sense that people were coming out with that sort of thing!

Echo also your comment that there have been some cracking contributions here - particularly the quintet of yourself, Liverbloke, BlackBull, Andy and SOS
« Last Edit: September 6, 2022, 12:22:40 pm by ianburns252 »

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,505
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #914 on: September 6, 2022, 11:52:10 am »
Gangsters have been glamourised since before I was alive

The ones in Chicago, the Krays, Liverpool gangsters - all over the place - there is a weird fascination with them and it's not even a remotely recent thing.

1812 was the first reference (In Scicily) apparantly
Of course, scumbags and their society damaging behaviour have always been glamourised. The difference in the modern age is that it's pumped into people's homes and heads constantly. It's absolutely everywhere, to the extent that it actually drives modern culture and attitudes.

It's saturation point glamourisation and normalisation of extremes.

I think in the past some of the fascination was due to these criminal psychopaths being seen as an anomaly within a relatively sane society. There is always a morbid curiosity around such characters because they are so alien to most of our realities. I also see nothing wrong with responsibly made documentaries on these types of people. Opening the door into their psychology is often fascinating and revealing.

I think the difference these days is the wall-to-wall nature of the glamourisation and normalisation. We aren't looking in and having a peek anymore from a safe, sane distance. Society now copies the extremes that have been glamourised and normalised. So, instead of looking in, we have now found ourselves all actually living it. We now have children carrying guns and posturing and firing them in Hollywood poses on our streets.


Edit: Yes, some great posts on this subject. Interesting stuff.
« Last Edit: September 6, 2022, 11:53:41 am by Son of Spion »
Beware The County Road Headlockers.

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,505
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #915 on: September 6, 2022, 11:58:56 am »
Some great posts in here.

That one really does my tits in. I don´t think its said in Liverpool (although that may have changed since I moved away), but I know its said in London and the like. If ever you wanted an example of how American-style TV and cultural glammour of crime has filtered into the UK - it is British kids calling non-federal British police "The Feds".

I know Britain has its own way of glamourising crime, as people here have very eloquently pointed out, but that one is a nonsensical rip off straight out of Goodfellas or US gangster rap or whatever it may be.
I've heard "Feds" said in Liverpool, but not often. I overheard some Scouse ket wigs saying it on the bus once, going from north Liverpool into town.
Beware The County Road Headlockers.

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,505
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #916 on: September 6, 2022, 12:11:29 pm »
I come across this a lot with people I know who talk about "the feds" and things like that - half the time you are some kid who smoke a joint every so often, you aren't a gangster, you aren't dodging armed police, you aren't some anti establishment hero being held down by the man.

It is considered "cool" to rally against authority (I don't mean this in a doffing my cap way and not holding people to account, rather the idea of "getting on over" or "sticking it to the man") and with the deck being stacked against many there is a feeling of "if you can't beat the system then fuck the system".

Kids get drawn into these things slowly - go and rob some beers from Tesco, just hold this ounce for me, oh you couldn't deliver this stuff. Then it becomes "if you are working this turf for me you need to protect yourself" and so they start carrying knives and that and once you tip over that edge then you almost can't get out.

What I've seen recently is the rise of "gentleman criminals" - friends who do take coke and then like have said how over the last 10 years the people doing it seem to have transitioned from being "people you don't fuck" with to "people who say please, thank you, ask you how your day has been...but you still don't fuck with" which puts an almost honourable veneer on things so it seems more acceptable to grab a bag for a night out which increases the market and so needs more of these kids acting as runners so more get recruited.

I don't think legalisation across the board will work, you can't lock them all up, so it has to start from the bottom but increasing opportunities for the disadvantaged, providing better social services so that children who are risk get identified early and the parents are supported to try and help overall or the children are protected if that isn't going to work.

Maybe even change the message - rather than "we are all doomed because the Tories/system/world has fucked us" it should be "I know things are bad but if we work together then we can make it work for everyone"

A friend of mine has had told me about one such fella. She met him through her son-in-law. She said he was utterly charming. Well dressed, highly respectful to her and very polite.

I suppose it's a bit like sportswashing in a way. You can, in some cases, work your way up until you are, on the surface, totally legitimate. Then, you can afford to be nice because you have underlings to be nasty for you if necessary.

I also know a fella who has had occasion to meet Curtis Warren in his home. He said he was charming and very polite.
Beware The County Road Headlockers.

Online liverbloke

  • Prototype RAWK Genius. Founder of stickysheets.com
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,249
  • i neither know nor care
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #917 on: September 6, 2022, 12:50:02 pm »
A friend of mine has had told me about one such fella. She met him through her son-in-law. She said he was utterly charming. Well dressed, highly respectful to her and very polite.

I suppose it's a bit like sportswashing in a way. You can, in some cases, work your way up until you are, on the surface, totally legitimate. Then, you can afford to be nice because you have underlings to be nasty for you if necessary.

I also know a fella who has had occasion to meet Curtis Warren in his home. He said he was charming and very polite.

an analogy would be a child molester smiling at kids and offering them chocolates - it's all a facade to what the real person inside is, which is one made up of a volatile mix of psychopath and sociopath


Quote from: Lee0-3Liv
Who would have thought liverblokes no draws idea would not be his worst idea of the weekend

Offline Black Bull Nova

  • emo
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,138
  • The cheesy side of town
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #918 on: September 6, 2022, 01:28:53 pm »
an analogy would be a child molester smiling at kids and offering them chocolates - it's all a facade to what the real person inside is, which is one made up of a volatile mix of psychopath and sociopath


There are a number of areas, usually more wealthy areas where there are people living in what looks well beyond their means and appear to be normal upstanding members of the local community, if a little detached. Now they may be lottery winners but I have seen some whose only source of significant income (and the number of regular visitors who do not appear to fit naturally) can only have come from something, shall we say, 'shady'.


A different sort of example I lived nearby to was a private taxi driver (just a driver) who managed to work very rarely and had a large detached property (and then bought another significant property nearby, cash) and had also a non-working wife and four kids. He was more than shady as well. There's a lot of money to be made.
« Last Edit: September 6, 2022, 01:32:31 pm by Black Bull Nova »
aarf, aarf, aarf.

Offline afc turkish

  • How long for them sausages? Maggie May's Mythical Turkish Delight. RAWK's Expert Sausage Monster! Oakley Cannonier is fucking boss. Likes blowing his friends? Who nose?!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,551
  • This looks like a nice spot...
    • Flat Back Four
Re: Lawless Liverpool?
« Reply #919 on: September 6, 2022, 01:51:52 pm »
I've heard "Feds" said in Liverpool, but not often. I overheard some Scouse ket wigs saying it on the bus once, going from north Liverpool into town.

Are ket wigs the fault of the US also?
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...