Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[tubby]

Do like Eze but he's a 10 and I'd really like us to not buy anymore players who have had nasty injuries.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

Are we trying to reinvent the wheel here a little?

Klopp's midfields have always been the engine and the facilitators. We tried to evolve that a little with the signings of Keita/Thiago to perhaps having someone more progressive with the ball in the side, someone with a bit more guile.

I don't see why we suddenly throw that out the window and start bringing in goalscoring midfielders. Our forwards get the goals, our wingbacks supply them largely, the defence chip in with a few - same with the midfield. The cogs are essentially the same, maybe they just need greasing a bit more.

The clamor for Bellingham now I can kind of understand in terms of moving the project on as it seems Klopp really wants him, and it feels like the biggest thing we need is energy and legs in there but he is hardly a goalscoring midfielder. Unless I am really wrong here, his record for Dortmund for goals/assist is fairly average. He looks an incredible talent, I'd love him if Klopp wants him but he isn't the goalscoring midfielder people are crying out for.

If Fabinho finds his form again, I think a lot of our issues get solved. The Thiago injuries are a worry and we can't really rely on Keita either but there should be enough with what we currently have (when fit) to navigate our way through the season comfortably. The issues are the injuries at the moment and Fabinho's form. He looks like he has already played 35 games this season.

[Knight]

Fabinho will always look poor when he doesn’t have bodies around him. Expecting
him to be able to fight all the fires on his own is to ignore the sort of player he is.

[redk84]

i don't think on paper there is an issue with our midfield options.
its just yknow, the "off paper" stuff with the injuries they are prone to getting time and again and how it disrupts everything once it happens

Especially for a team based on the system > individuals ethos

Beginning of summer I was absolutely certain that we would be getting atleast one in - thought maybe not after Nunez signing and Klopp repeatedly saying we won't get one. Hope that was a just a lie! 

[Chris~]

Fabinho will always look poor when he doesn’t have bodies around him. Expecting
him to be able to fight all the fires on his own is to ignore the sort of player he is.

I mean he's expected to do it at times because we set out to leave him and the centre backs whilst the rest press/push up.

[MdArshad]

Milner might have all the experience in the world as a footballer but how many games have he played as a central midfielder in his career? Serious question. Running around like a winger with no positional sense especially when Elliott seems to be the person supposed to be supporting the attack.

Fabinho had a lot of ground to cover. No suprise that Fabinho did not have his best game. When can Klopp stop playing Milner as a central midfielder, a backup at left back or right back is the only position Milner should be playing. If Keita/Henderson was not fit to start, Bajcetic should have been given the chance.

[El Lobo]

Milner might have all the experience in the world as a footballer but how many games have he played as a central midfielder in his career? Serious question. Running around like a winger with no positional sense especially when Elliott seems to be the person supposed to be supporting the attack.

Fabinho had a lot of ground to cover. No suprise that Fabinho did not have his best game. When can Klopp stop playing Milner as a central midfielder, a backup at left back or right back is the only position Milner should be playing. If Keita/Henderson was not fit to start, Bajcetic should have been given the chance.

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[Fromola]

Not so much individually but collectively it's just bang average when you take Thiago out.

[MdArshad]

Not so much individually but collectively it's just bang average when you take Thiago out.

You are right, the worry is Thiago is out a lot.

[Lastrador]

Milner might have all the experience in the world as a footballer but how many games have he played as a central midfielder in his career? Serious question. Running around like a winger with no positional sense especially when Elliott seems to be the person supposed to be supporting the attack.

Fabinho had a lot of ground to cover. No suprise that Fabinho did not have his best game. When can Klopp stop playing Milner as a central midfielder, a backup at left back or right back is the only position Milner should be playing. If Keita/Henderson was not fit to start, Bajcetic should have been given the chance.

Have to agree with that. He's great for closing down matches, with his energy and gamesmanship, but I always feel like the shape is not right when he starts. He vacates those central positions all too often and is sometimes too eager to close the man with the ball, and at his age, he just doesn't have the speed to get back when he gets bypassed. Offensively he still gets into good positions and can makes things happen, but I feel we pay too much of a price in terms of shape and balance for that.

[newterp]

Effectively we need a whole new midfield + Elliott and Jones.

Milner and Henderson are aging quickly (ok ok Milner is evergreen)
Thiago - over 30 and makes Aquilani and Aurelio and Agger blush
Keita - been done to death.

At least Jones and Elliott are young and energetic. Jones could be the all action player, press resistant, etc. if he can make the leap.

Leaves us needing 3 more midfielders.

[redmark]

Fabinho had a lot of ground to cover. No suprise that Fabinho did not have his best game.

He didn't have much ground to cover in this game (it's been a factor at times, but not last night), because Palace barely had the ball - and when they did, they typically bypassed the midfield by going long.

On the goal we conceded, Fabinho was 5 yards away from Eze when he controlled the clearance - he was ambling across when the camera panned to show them, so can only have been 10-15 away when the keeper cleared. Trent was a fraction closer and also closing on Eze. But then Trent left it to Fabinho, assuming he'd nick the ball and moved 'wrong side' to pick up the ball and attack. Fabinho approached at the wrong angle - too straight, leaving a big gap between himself and Trent, which Eze skipped through. The two had been perfectly placed to hold him up, block his progress and force him backwards or towards the touchline before trying to nick the ball, but left him an obvious out. It wasn't, as some have suggested, such a dangerous position that Fabinho needed to 'take a yellow'; but he ended up so badly placed that all he could do was dangle the wrong leg as Eze went past him.

(There's a well known ex-RAWK poster who's active on twitter, who'd have posted a scathing 20-post thread if that had been Henderson getting sucked in in that way).

He had a bad game. It wasn't the fault of the other midfielders leaving him too much to do, or too much ground to cover. The question is whether it's just poor form, or something more physical as a number of people are questioning, given that these sorts of performances and lack of mobility/athleticism have become more common. If/when we have other fit midfielders, I'd happily have Fabinho and Henderson rotate game by game, keeping both fresher (and getting rid of the Henderson-at-8 arguments).

[CS111]

It's hard to believe that there isn't one midfielder out there that would improve on what we have and isn't injured every other month.
We could be a mile of the top by the time we get a full strength squad back and even that doesnt hide the fact our midfield is old, injury prone , with a lack of goals.
God forbid the mancs turn us over next week at their place.

[Egyptian36]

It's hard to believe that there isn't one midfielder out there that would improve on what we have and isn't injured every other month.
We could be a mile of the top by the time we get a full strength squad back and even that doesnt hide the fact our midfield is old, injury prone , with a lack of goals.
God forbid the mancs turn us over next week at their place.

I think everything we do is influenced by analytics especially on the field so to make sure a player fits what we want to do his data need to be good based on the requirements of the position he will play in otherwise its a waste of money. That's why our options are limited but we get it right.

[Johnny Aldridge]

Is there any case to transitioning TAA into a midfielder?
His role the other night against Palace in the second half was very interesting. He seems like he could slot in there fairly easily.

[SamLad]

Is there any case to transitioning TAA into a midfielder?
His role the other night against Palace in the second half was very interesting. He seems like he could slot in there fairly easily.

being debated now in the Trent thread.

[lfcred1976]

being debated now in the Trent thread.

I think we’d lose a hell of a lot from him if he played central. He wouldn’t be able to produce those long right to left balls that he pulls out now. Now if he played on the right side of midfield that could be an option as he’s still be able to whip crosses in.

But then do we change and go 442 and have a right back behind him who’s main duty will be to defend and not be to concerned with bombing forward as Trent will be in from of him?  Someone like Finnan/Arbeloa would be ideal in a set up like that as they were absolutely class defenders. Doubt it will happen tho as will be a major shift in the way we play.

[mrantarctica]

He didn't have much ground to cover in this game (it's been a factor at times, but not last night), because Palace barely had the ball - and when they did, they typically bypassed the midfield by going long.

On the goal we conceded, Fabinho was 5 yards away from Eze when he controlled the clearance - he was ambling across when the camera panned to show them, so can only have been 10-15 away when the keeper cleared. Trent was a fraction closer and also closing on Eze. But then Trent left it to Fabinho, assuming he'd nick the ball and moved 'wrong side' to pick up the ball and attack. Fabinho approached at the wrong angle - too straight, leaving a big gap between himself and Trent, which Eze skipped through. The two had been perfectly placed to hold him up, block his progress and force him backwards or towards the touchline before trying to nick the ball, but left him an obvious out. It wasn't, as some have suggested, such a dangerous position that Fabinho needed to 'take a yellow'; but he ended up so badly placed that all he could do was dangle the wrong leg as Eze went past him.

(There's a well known ex-RAWK poster who's active on twitter, who'd have posted a scathing 20-post thread if that had been Henderson getting sucked in in that way).

He had a bad game. It wasn't the fault of the other midfielders leaving him too much to do, or too much ground to cover. The question is whether it's just poor form, or something more physical as a number of people are questioning, given that these sorts of performances and lack of mobility/athleticism have become more common. If/when we have other fit midfielders, I'd happily have Fabinho and Henderson rotate game by game, keeping both fresher (and getting rid of the Henderson-at-8 arguments).

Good post.

I think it really should be Hendo and Fab rotating for the 6 position and keeping fresh there. I don't really think we get much out of it when both are on the pitch. The majority of games are going to be against teams we have a lot more of the balll against. In such games, we need greater quality from our No. 8 player. Hendo has been giving the ball away a lot, and hasn't made up for it with his high pressure up the pitch. His athletic impact is diminishing. He still has his delivery, but quite often he thrived off that diagonal to Sadio which isn't there anymore.

Hopefully we'll see Naby, Curtis, Harvey and Carvalho feature more in those attacking spots because we look a little one dimensional at the moment. I don't feel that there's a great deal of surprise about how we play.

[newterp]

Is there any case to transitioning TAA into a midfielder?
His role the other night against Palace in the second half was very interesting. He seems like he could slot in there fairly easily.

he's been taking up that position for almost 6 months now - regularly.

[tubby]

I think Trent could play in midfield, he played that position in the youth teams and he's got the toolkit; great shot on him, insane passing range, really underrated engine, and the athleticism we're missing in there

But Elliott has done a really good job in the position Trent would likely play, no need to move him away from there, so it doesn't really work with the personnel we have at our disposal.

[Dave McCoy]

Unless Klopp is also going to change the teams tactics then what does calling Trent a midfielder instead of a RB nominally solve? Whoever is playing RB then may not come infield but they certainly aren't going to sit back and defend. Generally they'll end up in the same spots that Trent was in the 18/19 and 19/20 season, which will be extremely advanced, at the expense of a better player elsewhere on the field. Honestly it's kind of a ridiculous suggestion that just needs to stop.

The season is two games old and obviously the points haven't gone our way but generally things have been "fine". Our best chances this year will probably still revolve around always playing two of Fabinho, Hendo, Thiago and Keita in the DM, LCM role and then playing the RCM as either more or less attacking based on the game difficulty.

[redmark]

In such games, we need greater quality from our No. 8 player. Hendo has been giving the ball away a lot, and hasn't made up for it with his high pressure up the pitch. His athletic impact is diminishing. He still has his delivery, but quite often he thrived off that diagonal to Sadio which isn't there anymore.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Henderson is capable of delivery (the sharp pass on the deck inside the fullback for Salah, too), but it's probably not enough at this stage to offset declining pressing output and is often redundant if Trent is in similar positions to play the diagonal (and also capable of the same through balls). There might be the odd game against tougher opposition where Henderson + Fabinho makes sense, but it should be a diminishing option. If others can get and stay fit enough to contribute.

[Egyptian36]

We are already using him as a midfielder since last season. It's the perfect role to take advantage of his strengths. We just need the two deep midfielders to be physically stronger and quicker especially Fabinho who we may need to replace if we continue with this set-up.

[Fromola]

We are already using him as a midfielder since last season. It's the perfect role to take advantage of his strengths. We just need the two deep midfielders to be physically stronger and quicker especially Fabinho who we may need to replace if we continue with this set-up.

It's the engine room in midfield where things are falling down. Fabinho needs more legs around him. Henderson's age catching up with him combined with Gini leaving without a replacement (and Thiago's inevitable injuries) mean things fall apart in that area of the pitch. PLaying a high line the midfield needs to be spot on in transition.

[markmywords]

Unless Klopp is also going to change the teams tactics then what does calling Trent a midfielder instead of a RB nominally solve? Whoever is playing RB then may not come infield but they certainly aren't going to sit back and defend. Generally they'll end up in the same spots that Trent was in the 18/19 and 19/20 season, which will be extremely advanced, at the expense of a better player elsewhere on the field. Honestly it's kind of a ridiculous suggestion that just needs to stop.

The season is two games old and obviously the points haven't gone our way but generally things have been "fine". Our best chances this year will probably still revolve around always playing two of Fabinho, Hendo, Thiago and Keita in the DM, LCM role and then playing the RCM as either more or less attacking based on the game difficulty.

I think if 3 or maybe even 2 of hendo, fab, keita, thiago and possibly Elliot are unavailable, then Trent in midfield is a more than decent alternative, especially if Gomez is available at RB.

[newterp]

Pulled this from another thread

He has multiple times, and the only reason he hasn't cemented his place is unfortunately thru injury. There have been many times when he started 3/4 games and was very good then good injured. The biggest stick ppl keep beating hime with is he hasn't lived up to expectations because he's not leipzig Keita. It seems like most of these people continue to have there head stuck in a vacuum. We're not going to get that because we DON'T play the say way. Keita played as a 10 most times of Leipzig and sometimes as a 6 in a two. He's being asked to play a totally different role at Liverpool. Klopp even said as much. It's the same reason we didnt get the Gini that played for Netherlands or even the Thiago that played for Bayern. The same Thiago that played as 6 for Bayern btw.

That begs a questions - why are we recruiting midfielders and not playing to their strengths?

[Dave McCoy]

I think if 3 or maybe even 2 of hendo, fab, keita, thiago and possibly Elliot are unavailable, then Trent in midfield is a more than decent alternative, especially if Gomez is available at RB.

Pulled this from another thread

That begs a questions - why are we recruiting midfielders and not playing to their strengths?

Because things change? When we signed him both Trent and Robbo were unknowns.

[newterp]

Because things change? When we signed him both Trent and Robbo were unknowns.

We signed Thiago well after Trent and Robbo became mainstays.

If things change - shouldn't we also be changing the personnel to fit?

[Dave McCoy]

We signed Thiago well after Trent and Robbo became mainstays.

If things change - shouldn't we also be changing the personnel to fit?

Thiago and Keita aren't the same, I don't really agree with this premise.

[redwillow]

the best we have played under Klopp, well IMO, was the calendar year 2019. Mental win streak in the league to finish the campaign (without the trophy), win the CL, then go undefeated in the league up to Christmas basically.

Our best midfield three was Fabinho Henderson Wijnaldum. The difference was though, fabinho basically sat into the middle of a back three with Virgil & Gomez, with basically a 4 in front and then the three forwards. It allowed Hendo & Gini to press and win the ball back quickly, it allowed Trent & Robbo to hug the touchline and get very high up without being exposed and allowed our front three to sit in the box.

Now it doesnt seem as though Fab sits in, mainly because as we struggle he pushes forward to try influence the game, which means our fullbacks are exposed more and drop a bit deeper, which means our front three get wider and we are then easier to defend and open to counters.

Just my observation

[Ghost Town]

Unless Klopp is also going to change the teams tactics then what does calling Trent a midfielder instead of a RB nominally solve? Whoever is playing RB then may not come infield but they certainly aren't going to sit back and defend. Generally they'll end up in the same spots that Trent was in the 18/19 and 19/20 season, which will be extremely advanced, at the expense of a better player elsewhere on the field. Honestly it's kind of a ridiculous suggestion that just needs to stop.
 

This

Trent in midfiled only works if Klopp changes his approach; if the line drops back a bit and fullbacks become more defenders than creators. In that instance Trent might come to the fore as a Beckham like right midfielder, whipping the ball onto the sixpence on Darwin's head.

But while Klopp retains the current strategy putting Trent in midfield will either reduce the efficacy of the midfield or reduce Trent's creative input, because he has so many covering and protective tasks to perform. One or the other. And if it does reduce his input then why have him there (as opposed to a specialist Klopp midfielder) in the first place?

Perhaps more people need to be honest about this - and some already have so fair dues to them - and admit that they are no longer happy with Klopp's midfield concept. Not the players but the strategy itself.

More and more people seem to be gazing enviously over at the Emptyhad and wanting us to utilise a similar midfield strategy to City's.

There's something more swashbucking and eyecatching about a midfield that creates, penetrates and scores goals than a midfield which covers and firefights and selflessly creates a platform for others to attack.

There also seems to be a feeling that too many of the midfield players we have are no longer up to the task of delivering Klopp's concept. But you rarely hear of people suggesting replacements who will revivify the hard-working/covering/troubleshooting concept. Most of us seem to want new players who will transition the midfield to a more City like concept.

It's the old story, as old as human history: the victors set the fashion.

[Skeeve]

Perhaps more people need to be honest about this - and some already have so fair dues to them - and admit that they are no longer happy with Klopp's midfield concept. Not the players but the strategy itself.

More and more people seem to be gazing enviously over at the Emptyhad and wanting us to utilise a similar midfield strategy to City's.

There's something more swashbucking and eyecatching about a midfield that creates, penetrates and scores goals than a midfield which covers and firefights and selflessly creates a platform for others to attack.

I think it is a little unfair to try and dismiss concerns in this manner, the issue we seem to have right now is that as some of our midfielders age they are less able to contribute beyond the specific expectations that Klopp has from his midfield, which is fine most of the time, but means we lack a little flexibility in our options when plan A isn't working in a particular game.

[Ghost Town]

I think it is a little unfair to try and dismiss concerns in this manner, the issue we seem to have right now is that as some of our midfielders age they are less able to contribute beyond the specific expectations that Klopp has from his midfield, which is fine most of the time, but means we lack a little flexibility in our options when plan A isn't working in a particular game.

I'm not dismissing concerns; I have concerns of my own.

Rather, in this post I was moving past the concerns and looking at something else that I've begun to notice. Not a concern that players are no longer good enough to carry out Klopp's midfield strategy but rather a feeling that Klopp's midfield strategy is itself not good enough. More and more references to City's midfield, and lack of goals from midfielders and moving Trent into midfield (which would necessitate adjusting the midfield strategy). I'm just suggesting that those who do think that way should perhaps be open about it (and if you don't think that way then it's not aimed at you).

I'll be honest I can see an argument for adopting a new midfield strategy as well, on the basis of a change is good, to keep the opposition guessing. But at the same time I'm also aware that it's Klopp's call, and that if I want Klopp as manager (which I do, for as long as possible) then I have to be content with his choices. They come as a package and I have no say in it.

[Egyptian36]

Most people doesn't care about the play style of our midfield or want a City like concept. They just want a reliable balanced midfield, midfielders who aren't injury-prone.

[Sangria]

This

Trent in midfiled only works if Klopp changes his approach; if the line drops back a bit and fullbacks become more defenders than creators. In that instance Trent might come to the fore as a Beckham like right midfielder, whipping the ball onto the sixpence on Darwin's head.

But while Klopp retains the current strategy putting Trent in midfield will either reduce the efficacy of the midfield or reduce Trent's creative input, because he has so many covering and protective tasks to perform. One or the other. And if it does reduce his input then why have him there (as opposed to a specialist Klopp midfielder) in the first place?

Perhaps more people need to be honest about this - and some already have so fair dues to them - and admit that they are no longer happy with Klopp's midfield concept. Not the players but the strategy itself.

More and more people seem to be gazing enviously over at the Emptyhad and wanting us to utilise a similar midfield strategy to City's.

There's something more swashbucking and eyecatching about a midfield that creates, penetrates and scores goals than a midfield which covers and firefights and selflessly creates a platform for others to attack.

There also seems to be a feeling that too many of the midfield players we have are no longer up to the task of delivering Klopp's concept. But you rarely hear of people suggesting replacements who will revivify the hard-working/covering/troubleshooting concept. Most of us seem to want new players who will transition the midfield to a more City like concept.

It's the old story, as old as human history: the victors set the fashion.

Not me. I want more midfielders of the can run all day mould. You can scold me for not wanting to transition the midfield to a more City-like fashion as Klopp seems to be looking to do. But I think our midfield lacks legs, in a way that our youngsters don't rectify. I'd like a younger Henderson, a younger Milner, a younger Wijnaldum, that type. For the ultimate form of what qualities I'd like to see, and what limitations I'm prepared to live with, a younger Momo. I suspect Klopp wants someone rather more rounded though, like a younger Lucas (the 2010-12 version would be perfect for what we need).

[Bobinhood]

Trent!? naah son

Im telling you right now, and again, Matips moving into mid and breezing the balon d'or.

 

[stockdam]

Most people doesn't care about the play style of our midfield or want a City like concept. They just want a reliable balanced midfield, midfielders who aren't injury-prone.

I’d also suggest that all of our midfield players are on the slow side. That isn’t a big problem but, at times, it shows up.
Fabinho, Thiago, Milner, Henderson, Jones, Keita and Elliott are not fast. Ox is probably our fastest midfield player but he has become one of the most injury prone.

I’m not sure why we haven’t strengthened our midfield recently as we did with our attack and defence.

[Sangria]

I’d also suggest that all of our midfield players are on the slow side. That isn’t a big problem but, at times, it shows up.
Fabinho, Thiago, Milner, Henderson, Jones, Keita and Elliott are not fast. Ox is probably our fastest midfield player but he has become one of the most injury prone.

I’m not sure why we haven’t strengthened our midfield recently as we did with our attack and defence.

We have lots of midfielders. Unfortunately, few of them are trustworthy. We needed to decide on what we needed and got rid of what we didn't. We didn't manage to do so, so we have superficial numbers but rather fewer real numbers.

[Timbo's Goals]

Reading the negativity concerning our midfield - however rationally argued or not the comments may be - of these last few pages I’m beginning to doubt whether I did actually witness the same midfielders just a few months ago help our team finish FIVE points clear of City [points totals adjusted for those City games against Wolves and Everton and our game against Spurs which saw some of the most abominable refereeing/VAR decisions I’ve ever seen  ], win two cups and so narrowly lose a Champions League final by a single goal [a breakaway at that] and only due to a goalkeeper having the game of his life.

Bloodyhell guys I can’t believe some of the posts virtually writing off our midfield capabilities as if last season belonged to an entirely distant era. Blimey, we’re only two games into the season, one of which wasn’t good but the other saw a vast improvement and both of which saw us create enough opportunities to have won given a modicum of luck. The rash of injuries is a sickener but for goodness sake let’s stop talking about ourselves and particularly our midfield as if we’re no hopers. These lads - midfielders included - are serial winners as is our amazing manager. None of them are ‘past it’ as some seem to be suggesting and these initial blips will soon be rectified. Starting this coming Monday night.

[Knight]

Three responses to this.
1) plenty of people were pointing out issues in the midfield last season. At times it was baffling open which led to us giving up leads in a few PL games. At times it was totally unable to keep and progress the ball, like against Chelsea in the new year. At times it looked very one paced. Now we sorted lots of these issues for the big run we went on. But, significantly, Thiago was mostly available in the 2nd half of the season. Without Thiago the midfield often looked and performed  pretty averagely. It’s important to say that he was fit when it most mattered last season but he was out a lot. A midfield that relies on an injury prone 30 year old is probably not a good idea.

2) the players are another year older. In Milner, Henderson and Thiago’s case that means a potential or actual regression. It’s not all bad news because I’m Elliot and Jones case it could mean progression. But at the minute, given the issues with robustness and athleticism, the downsides of 3 of our players getting older and one (Fabinho) looking older than his years at points, outweigh the upside.

3) when we were prepared to drop 80 million euros or whatever it was on a midfielder earlier in the summer it confirmed to us that Klopp feels similarly about the midfield, that there was room for a significant upgrade. We ended up spending even more on Nunez (although offset by the Mane money) but at the time that would have been significantly more than we’d spent on almost any player ever, aside from a couple.