Author Topic: Financial Fair Play - developments in here  (Read 168547 times)

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #120 on: August 22, 2013, 03:06:42 pm »
I'm not going to trawl the internet because you are being obtuse

City are getting the majority of their cash from middle east sponsorships thats how they are trying to pass FFP, you know this very well, why do you feel the need to try and legitimise your income? Does it really matter?

If clubs like United, Liverpool and Arsenal struggle to pay the sort of transfer fees and wages City pay, how do you really expect to fund it yourselves?
You can trawl the internet all day every day but you won't find that information as it's never been publicly revealed. It's been reported that Etihad pay us £35m a year in total but I've really no idea. That covers the shirt, the stadium and a similar deal to yours with Aon for the training complex and rest of the campus. Out of that we pay 2 or 3 million to the council on top of what we already pay them under the lease. That's not excessive for a top four club. Arsenal are getting £30m a year for the shirt and stadium alone from Emirates. The other three companies might pay us £1m or £5m but I've not a clue.

As for how City will become self-financing, I've explained that in great detail in the City thread. I expect we will be breaking even from this year onwards. Meeting FFP this assessment period might be tight but we'll clearly be able to demonstrate compliance going forward. And if there's anything dodgy, I'm sure we'll get picked up on it.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #121 on: August 22, 2013, 03:08:52 pm »
Do you honestly believe that City's UAE sponsorship deals are all fair value and not a way of bypassing the FFP?
Watch my lips.

We. Don't. Have. To. Show. Fair. Value. As. The. UAE. Sponsors. Are. Not. Related. Parties.

Is that clear enough for you?

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #122 on: August 22, 2013, 03:11:18 pm »
Isn't there another thread for the "Are City cheating bastards" thing?
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #123 on: August 22, 2013, 03:14:06 pm »
Watch my lips.

We. Don't. Have. To. Show. Fair. Value. As. The. UAE. Sponsors. Are. Not. Related. Parties.

Is that clear enough for you?


He did not ask whether they complied with FFP rules. He asked whether they are fair value.

Oh, and stop being an arse. I should remind you that high maintenance fans of other clubs don't tend to last long here. They are too much grief.  Be civil please.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #124 on: August 22, 2013, 03:52:01 pm »
You're defending your club and I'm defending mine. I've said on here that I do care about human rights in Abu Dhabi. So what would you like me to do? Set myself on fire in front of the stadium?

I'm not defending mine. I said that I don't agree with it. this isn't a my club against your club thing. That sort of tribalistic nonsense has taken us to some pretty dark places. The thing is that some things are bigger than football. Alright so you say that you do care about human rights in Abu Dhabi. Then at least admit that the reason behind these people  pumping money into your football club is to create a misleading image of Abu dhabi, one that will allow them to develop a good image while doing terrible things. If you care about human rights in Abu Dhabi, then why are you a paying cheerleader in the PR front of the abusers of those human rights?

Quote
I'm guessing from your location that you're not a regular match-goer and I'd say the others who've been most vocal aren't either.  I don't know one single City fan who has stopped going in protest against Abu Dhabi and that includes the many Jewish fans, including (I think) 3 of our honorary Life & Vice Presidents. I go to matches to watch football and meet my mates. It's never bothered me what league we're in, who the manager is or who owns us, although I'll have an opinion on all of those. I've also said there would be a line I wouldn't cross but I freely admit that Abu Dhabi isn't it. I had more moral qualms about Shinawatra but I mostly still went.
]

Ok so where is that line? It's obviously somewhere beyond Medievalist fundamentalist middle eastern despot, with a sideline in ruthless suppression of democratic rights, womens rights and slaves. It was obviously a bit wobbly for anti-democratic, hopelessly corrupt killer of thousands of political opponents and petty criminals. Just how unbelievably awful does someone have to be for you to turn down the prospect of a tasty full back, or a south american striker?

as for what you should do? Well be honest with yourself for a start. Take a long hard look at how you prioritize football over all other considerations. I mean football is great, and football is important, and it's deadly in so many ways. But when your club is being used to promote a despotic regime, then you really have to stop and think. the thing is that when you are at the match with your mates, you're just concentrating on the football and ignoring the f*cking Giant million tonne shitting elephant in the middle of the stadium. And that is what is the point of all this money? 


Quote
I'd also say that if DIC took you over,  not one match going Liverpool fan would stop going. It's very easy to be moral from your armchair but when going to matches home and away for 30 or 40 years has been your habit,  it takes something pretty bad to stop that.

Dubai is pretty unpleasant place, but it's apparently not a patch on abu dhabi. Oh I have no doubt that many fans would be absolutely delighted with loads of new signings. But I would have to imagine that some would be put off by the sugar daddy aspect, and I would hope that in a relatively politically aware fanbase, there would be considerably more disquiet and protest once it was clear that our club was being hijacked to make unpleasant people look like santa claus. But I'm not talking about fanbases at large. That is a societal problem. I'm asking you as an individual where is that line? when is the money too dirty.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #125 on: August 22, 2013, 04:06:27 pm »
He did not ask whether they complied with FFP rules. He asked whether they are fair value.

Oh, and stop being an arse. I should remind you that high maintenance fans of other clubs don't tend to last long here. They are too much grief.  Be civil please.
I'm not high maintenance. I enjoy this forum and think I've been respectful, civil and contributed but people simply don't read what I write and go over the same ground again and again. I also think some of the more vituperative comments about our owners are well out of order plus, while I've got your attention, you might try to ensure that this discussion stays on topic.

If you want my opinion I think the Etihad deal, if it's the reported £35m a year, is fair value and stacks up alongside similar deals. We're a top four CL club currently and that commands a premium. But at the end of the day I have no idea what the actual deal is or how it's structured. But as I've said, the term 'fair value' in the context of FFP has a distinct meaning and only needs to be applied to deals with 'related parties', which is a well-established financial reporting requirement. So whether you or I think the deal is fair value or not, that not the criterion on which it will be judged by the licensing body.

As to the other three UAE companies, as I've said, there's nothing out there to suggest how much they pay us so I couldn't comment.

Here's a list of our current sponsors:
UAE
Etihad
Etisalat
Aabar
Abu Dhabi Tourist Authority

Others:
Nike
Hays
BT Sport
EA Sports
Forex/Gain Capital
Richard Mille
Sytner Group
Heineken
Thomas Cook
Harvey Nichols
viagogo
188Bet

Of that, let's assume that £47m a year comes from Etihad & Nike. Our commercial revenue also includes corporate matchday hospitality so let's say that's £15m. That leaves about £50m from the others and other commercial activities (stadium events, sales of merchandise etc). So let's guess at an average £2-2.5m per sponsor, which means about £40m+ from UAE companies and about £70m from other sources.

Your total commercial income for 2012 was around £80m iirc but that doesn't include matchday corporate as our does I think. So knocking off the £15 from ours and adding the Etihad £35m (which I believe is fair and we'd get similar value from other sponsors) gives £90m, excluding the other UAE sponsors. So it's simply not true to say we're reliant on the UAE.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 04:08:24 pm by ManchesterBlue »

Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #126 on: August 22, 2013, 04:34:45 pm »
I think you're a bit harsh there red hopper, you can't choose who owns your club, and he supported them long before they came on the scene, you can't just stop supporting them

Manchester Blue, isn't your wage bill something like 90% of your turnover? How will City ever break even without creative accountancy?
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #127 on: August 22, 2013, 04:52:26 pm »
I think you're a bit harsh there red hopper, you can't choose who owns your club, and he supported them long before they came on the scene, you can't just stop supporting them

No but you can respond appropriately when some ghastly fiend takes over your club. aren't there a large number of man utd fans who did precisely that, when the club being taken over by your own version of hicks and gillette? Didn't some of them form a club that has risen to level 7 of the league pyramid? Wikipedia also tells me that they're building their own stadium. Didn't talk of a rupert murdoch takeover not lead to substantial fan protests, threats of boycotts, legal action, the setting up of a raft of fan organizations etc? and that was when it seemed as though they would be sugar daddy owners.

Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #128 on: August 22, 2013, 04:59:48 pm »
I think thats for another thread red hopper mate

All I will say is that most super-rich people/organisations/companys have questionable ethics and morals, and to own a Premier league club you need to be super-rich
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #129 on: August 22, 2013, 05:03:10 pm »
Manchester Blue, isn't your wage bill something like 90% of your turnover? How will City ever break even without creative accountancy?
Sorry if I was a bit aggressive before.

Yes it was around 90% in the last published accounts (and will probably be a bit less in the ones to May 2013) but in the current financial year (to May 2014) it should come down below 70%. We've cleared a huge amount (at least £35m) off the bill with the sale of Balotelli, Tevez, Santa Cruz, Maicon, Toure, Bridge. We also sold Johnson, De Jong, Adebayor plus Barry & Sinclair are in the departure lounge. The new boys are on smaller basic with enhanced performance bonuses so the net reduction is probably over £20m.

Here's what I posted in the City thread about a month ago.
Quote
Last season (2012/13) should be the last one we report signifcant losses but there will be a difference in how the loss is made up. Ignoring the sale of IP we turned over £231m in 2011/12. We report corporate/hospitality match revenue as part of commercial income so I can't separate that out but I'm going to assume it's in the region of £20m. So total matchday income would have been around the £40m mark. We'll have increased that slightly as normal prices went up and demand for corporate seats went through the roof, I'm told. So let's add £2.5m to matchday. As we qualified for the CL as champions, we got more of the pool so that will probably be worth an extra £5m. We did some new sponsorships, with Heineken (which was worth about an additional £3m on its own) plus two entirely new ones with Boss & someone else so let's add £7.5m. All things being equal, that would give us income of around £250m for 2012/13.

I'll assume wages & operating expenses stay pretty much the same at £256m but I've worked out amortisation will come down to around £60m (and my 2011/12 estimate was very close to the published one) because of impairment provisions. We also made a profit on the sale of Balotelli of about £10m. So I'm looking at a loss of around £56m, all of which is basically amortisation. Word coming out of the club talks about £50m losses.

In this financial year we have a number of things that help us. The new TV deal will add at least £40m, when all the overseas rights are sold, maybe more. A new kit deal with Nike will add £10-12m and matchday prices have gone up by just under 10% so that will add another £3-4m. So without anything else, our income will increase by at least £50m add possibly up to £55m. That excludes any additional CL income if we should qualify from the group stages. That brings us up to £300+m in revenue.

Amortisation, including all current signings, will reduce to £50m according to my spreadsheet. Wages should come down as we've cleared off Bridge, Santa Cruz, Kolo Toure (none of whom will be replaced) at an annual saving of around £16m. Tevez, Maicon and Balotelli going will save us another £20m and the new signings so far will cost us about £15m. (Adebayor has been off our books for a couple of seasons). I assume there's still 2 or 3 more to go, as you suggested which will probably save us over £10m but even without those we've cut £20 off the wage bill, which we needed to do. Plus new contracts are being negotiated at lower basic wages, with more emphasis on performance payments. So I'd be looking at a wage bill under £180m this financial year, which will actually be 60% of turnover.

When we put those together, we have turnover of £300m, wages of £180m, other operating expenses of £55m giving an "cash" profit of £65m. Amortisation will be £50m which leaves us an operating profit of £15m before any financing costs on my figures. And that's excluding any further wage savings, additional CL income or sponsorships, all of which are quite possible. In terms of support from Abu Dhabi, I'd guess that around £50m a year comes from Etihad, Aabar & Etalisat. But Etihad are a growing, global airline and sports and other sponsorship has had measurable benefits for Qatar Airways and Emirates so presumably it pays off. Plus one of the key objectives behind the purchase of City was to promote Abu Dhabi and its commercial enterprises, so it's a fair bet they'd have spent that money somewhere, even if they hadn't bought us. I happen to know, from a well-placed source in The Gulf, that the recognition that owning City has brought them has completely exceeded their wildest expectations.

To move onto the players, you make a good point about Toure, Nasri & Dzeko. My suspicion is they'll have another season to prove their worth or they'll be off. As I've shown, there's no desperate financial need this season so it does no harm to have them around, particulalry if we need to prove ourselves in the CL. I also suspect that Pellegrini wants to see how Rodwell fares before letting Yaya go. We've also a potentially great youngster up front called John Guidetti, who has had crippling illness problems but should finally be available this season. If the new boys and Guidetti are OK, then Dzeko will go as there seems to have been no move to offer him a new contract as his is up in 2 years.

Two others under threat are Milner & Barry. Barry is a great PL asset most of the time but not up to the standard of the CL. Milner is a willing workhorse and does an incredible job covering the right-back but his end product is disappointing and he is currently the third biggest amortisation cost. Kolarov, Garcia & Sinclair are the ones most likely to go this summer, which would save another £8.5m in amortisation and maybe £9-10m in wages.

We've also got plans to increase capacity in the next 2/3 seasons, initially to 54,000 then to 60,000. A lot of that increase would be corporate I believe, which would add another £15m or more annually eventually. The other long-term sources of additional income will come from developments around the stadium. The first of those, the so-called Etihad Campus, is under construction currently and is due to come on stream fully in 12 months. most of that is the training complex but there are other things, like a hotel and specialist sports facilities, that will produce an income. But the biggest potential prize is what's known as the "collar site" where the super-casino was going to be situated. ADUG are working closely with the council to redevelop the whole area between the stadium and city centre (which badly needs it) but this is the next stage. I believe it will consist of a mixture of commercial, residential and leisure facilities. To make the point about people who use the tired old cliche "wait till the Sheikh gets bored", potential investors have been assured that ADUG will be around for many years to come (at least the next 20-30).

So I'm not in the slightest bit worried about our financial future as even from this financial year, we should be showing a profit and be pretty well self-sustaining. In the longer terms, if things go to plan, we will be financially unassailable. The Sheikh has just made a profit of £3bn out of Barclays, after he effectively bailed them out in 2008 when the credit crunch hit. He's a very shrewd man.

Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #130 on: August 22, 2013, 05:19:53 pm »
Interesting read that mate but i'm still sceptical, even clubs like Arsenal, Liverpool (when in the CL)and United can't afford to pay what you are paying (well, United without the debt might but we are a financial behemoth) and expect to stay within FFP

Your last paragraph stating that you aren't worried about failing FFP made me smile, you won't fail it, but not because you pass it fair and square,It's all creative accountancy and dodgy sponsorship that will see you beat FFP, and we all know it won't have any teeth anyway
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #131 on: August 22, 2013, 05:40:08 pm »
Interesting read that mate but i'm still sceptical, even clubs like Arsenal, Liverpool (when in the CL)and United can't afford to pay what you are paying (well, United without the debt might but we are a financial behemoth) and expect to stay within FFP

Your last paragraph stating that you aren't worried about failing FFP made me smile, you won't fail it, but not because you pass it fair and square,It's all creative accountancy and dodgy sponsorship that will see you beat FFP, and we all know it won't have any teeth anyway
There's no creative accountancy and, as I've said, I reckon only about £6-8m now comes from UAE companies other than Etihad. We'll see next summer I guess. But if it had been based on the last 2 years accounts, with an aggregate financial loss of over €100m, Liverpool might have struggled, although some of that was a write-off of stadium expenditure, which would have been allowable.

Offline Acaustiq

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #132 on: August 22, 2013, 10:40:45 pm »
alright then. Why is what I'm saying shit? Is my grasp of the structure and relationship between the club and its sponsors incorrect? Am I incorrect when I think that city having such huge sponsorship deals is absurd? Am I spouting shit when pointing out that it's virtually impossible for Uefa to prove collusion between clubs and sponsors, or am I spouting shit because I say that City are able to justify these insane deals by saying that Premier league clubs have huge sponsorship deals.

As I explained to you half an hour beforehand and as you'd know if you'd read the rules, uefa don't have to prove anything of the sort.

In addition your absurd post hoc ergo propter hoc rationale in comparing them to united is so bizarre I don't even know where to start - it's the sort of nonsense you read on bluemoon.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #133 on: August 23, 2013, 12:44:36 am »
As I explained to you half an hour beforehand and as you'd know if you'd read the rules, uefa don't have to prove anything of the sort.

In addition your absurd post hoc ergo propter hoc rationale in comparing them to united is so bizarre I don't even know where to start - it's the sort of nonsense you read on bluemoon.

I know that the clubs have to provide 'proof', but the point here is that if UEFA can't possibly prove collusion, then they can be as suspicious as they want. how are they supposed to accurately assess this 'proof' on anything other than on face value? All they have to say is that we are not colluding and show a sufficient distance between the ownership of the two organizations. The point is that "What happens on the golf course stays on the golf course," is a weakness in almost all financial regulatory systems.

And I'm not the one that compared their deals to man utd. They did. They publicly and officially justified the size of the deals by comparing them to leading premiership commercial contracts, and said that since they were a top premiership club, it was normal for them to have that level of commercial income. they used this to argue that the deals represented fair value, and that though they were large, and often from the same place,  they were at the market rate. The only problem is that they are comparing apples with oranges. man utd had large sized deals not because they were also a big premiership club. They had them because they were a huge global club, with an enormous fanbase, who lead the way in the commercialization of football, and had massive experience when it came to making these deals.

Even clubs like chelsea had big deals based on long periods of success, and we still have large sponsorship deals because of the sheer size of our supporter base. yet city stormed straight in and they were racking up the fifth highest commercial income in europe, when their sponsors could have signed deals with much bigger clubs for similar or less money.  Man city only had to draw level with man utd on points once, to draw almost level with them in terms of commercial income. it's an extraordinary performance made seem even more plausible with Man utd's future deals with Chevy and Aon.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #134 on: August 23, 2013, 03:41:13 pm »
I know that the clubs have to provide 'proof', but the point here is that if UEFA can't possibly prove collusion, then they can be as suspicious as they want. how are they supposed to accurately assess this 'proof' on anything other than on face value? All they have to say is that we are not colluding and show a sufficient distance between the ownership of the two organizations. The point is that "What happens on the golf course stays on the golf course," is a weakness in almost all financial regulatory systems.

I think the point here is that UEFA don't have to prove anything to anyone. It is up to the clubs to prove deals are not fraudulent, to the satisfaction of UEFA.
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #135 on: August 23, 2013, 05:02:48 pm »
I think the point here is that UEFA don't have to prove anything to anyone. It is up to the clubs to prove deals are not fraudulent, to the satisfaction of UEFA.
The use of the word 'fraudulent' is a bit dramatic (although not totally irrelevant). Sorry in advance for the accounting technology lecture but it's useful to understand what the requirement is and where it's come from. There has been a lot of hysteria in the media and on forums that this is somehow a new requirement and that UEFA can disqualify sponsorship deals that it feels are out of line and this simply isn't true.

Since the late 1980's, all companies reporting under UK reporting standards have had to declare any related party transactions in their accounts. The original objective was to show if any transactions between these parties could have materially affected the financial statements but now it means any transaction between related parties.

So if Person A, or his/her spouse or parent/child, is a director of Company B, which controls or influences Company C (i.e. B holds a certain percentage of shares upwards of 20%), A, the close family member, B & C are all related parties. If A and C undertake a transaction, that has to be reported in the notes to the accounts. That is covered by FRS 8 in the UK and IAS 24 internationally. This is part of the statutory and regulatory requirements for bigger companies, including under The Companies Act, so there's a legal requirement to do it. So football clubs, certainly English ones, have needed to comply with this for over 20 years.

IAS 24 and FRS 8 are slightly different in the actual wording but consistent in their objective and intent. As I understand it, the definition of a related party in Annex X of FFP is the one used in IAS 24.

In the FFP regulations 2012, Article 58, Section 4 says "Relevant income and expenses from related parties must be adjusted to reflect the fair value of any such transactions."

In Annex X, the requirement states:
"For the purpose of the break-even result, the licensee must determine the
fair value of any related party transaction(s). If the estimated fair value is
different to the recorded value then the relevant income must be adjusted
accordingly, bearing in mind, however, that no upward adjustments can be
made to relevant income.
Examples of related party transactions that require a licensee to demonstrate
the estimated fair value of the transaction include:
• Sale of sponsorship rights by a club to a related party;
• Sale of corporate hospitality tickets, and/or use of an executive box, by a club to a related party; and
• Any transaction with a related party whereby goods or services are provided to a club.
Examples of related party transactions that must be adjusted because they must always be excluded from relevant income are:
• Monies received by a club from a related party as a donation; and
• Settlement of liabilities on behalf of the club by a related party.
"

So if the licensee (i.e. the club) undertakes a related party transaction then it (a) must report it (which it has to do anyway) and (b) if in the opinion of the licensee it exceeds fair value, it must reduce its FFP income by the amount of the transaction that it considers to exceed fair value.

UEFA is the ultimate licensing body but it has outsourced the actual process to the national authority (the PL or FA in our case). It does have the power to audit the licensing bodies' processes and an individual licencee's submissions though.

If you look in your own 2012 accounts (http://www.scribd.com/doc/128339220/liverpool-fc-accounts-2011-12) Note 27 is part of these disclosure requirements. There is an exemption for disclosing the actual transactions in a wholly-owned subsidiary as long as they are disclosed in the controlling company's accounts but they have to declare which company that is, which is what this note is doing. So if a related party has paid for corporate facilities then that should be disclosed and in City's accounts prior to the ADUG takeover, the use of corporate boxes by the major shareholder and a hospitality company owned by Dennis Tueart was reported. In the most recent accounts, the sale of IP rights to a group company was also reported. However any transactions with Etihad or other UAE companies were not regarded as related party transactions. The fact that City have decided they aren't, when failure to do so if they were would constitute a criminal offence, would therefore have been taken with expert guidance and been subject to external audit scrutiny. It is therefore presumably safe to assume that they are correct in their view that Etihad etc are nor related parties.

To bullet point this:
- A company (certainly a UK-based one) has to report related party transactions by law. Failure to do so would indeed be fraudulent.
- These are defined by the relevant accounting standards and are reproduced in the FFP regs. UEFA will not apply a different definition to the one already applied by regulatory, statutory and technical bodies.
- 'Fair value' has to be assessed by the reporting party (i.e. the club) for any related party transaction.
- Any revenue from such a transaction in excess of fair value has to be excluded.
- UEFA can check both the national body's process and an individual club's FFP submissions.
- Etihad & City are not regarded as a related parties and therefore the concept of assessing fair value does not apply.

As Etihad are effectively a 'government-related entity' they would probably be classed as a related party if City were similarly owned by the Abu Dhabi government. But as we are 100% owned by Sheikh Mansour, that doesn't apply. There is a common director between Etihad and City but in most cases a director in common (particularly a non-executive as is the case) is not sufficient to establish a related party.




Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #136 on: August 23, 2013, 06:24:11 pm »
Etihad and City not related?

I think Nessy is correct when he described it as 'fraudulent'
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #137 on: August 23, 2013, 07:51:20 pm »
Etihad and City not related?

I think Nessy is correct when he described it as 'fraudulent'
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Stop playing the village idiot, go and read IAS 24 or FRS 8 and then (when you've woken up after they've put you to sleep) tell me how Sheikh Mansour and Etihad are,  according to that, ' related parties'.

Or, if you've nothing useful to contribute to this thread, you should join the search parties looking for Ed Woodward. Someone thought they spotted him with that tribe who came out of the jungle in Peru.

Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #138 on: August 23, 2013, 07:56:59 pm »
Village idiot?

Its you who is insulting people's intelligence trying to make out City would and could be self sufficient without the sheik

His brother is on the board isn't he? Doesn't his family own or part own most of those companies?
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Offline Ben_AFC

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #139 on: August 23, 2013, 08:03:41 pm »
Not sure if this has been picked up on here or not, but I listened to this excellent podcast featuring Stefan Szymanski on FFP today and it's potential unintended outcomes.

http://worldsoccertalk.com/2013/08/22/this-week-in-soccer-financial-fair-play-and-world-cup-2022-in-qatar/

This is the mentioned article by Stefan Szymanski which appeared in the FT that was referred to in the podcast.

http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=527
w w w w d d w w w d w w w d d w d w w d w w w w w w w w w d w d w d d d w w. Arsena.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #140 on: August 23, 2013, 08:30:33 pm »
Village idiot?

Its you who is insulting people's intelligence trying to make out City would and could be self sufficient without the sheik

His brother is on the board isn't he? Doesn't his family own or part own most of those companies?
Well here I am trying to be helpful but people just carry on with the same ill-informed comments. I'm sure you're really just trying to wind me up aren't you? ;-)

Anyway it's his half-brother, which doesn't count as a close family member (although the regulations aren't that specific). I think it's spouse, parent or child mainly. Plus Mansour or his brother would have to be able to exercise influence over both parties (City & Etihad) to be classed as a related party.

I think the Abu Dhabi government owns all the shares in Etihad and the non-executive directors are all Emiratis. However Sheikh Mansour isn't one of them.

As I've said, failure by City to report Etihad as a related party (if it was) would be a criminal offence. So you can put whatever construct you want on it but they aren't. And even if they paid us £1bn a month, there's nothing UEFA can do about it.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #141 on: August 23, 2013, 08:41:46 pm »
The UAE want to have the biggest and best of everything, its all for their image and they have money to burn, whether that's building the tallest skyscraper, or owning the best airline or turning a small club into a succesful one and they don't care what it costs

They are all vehicles to promote themselves, and it is the royal family who is controlling them all,they can use the different vehicles to promote and push their others, ie Etihad sponsoring City, don't be so naiive to pretend that they aren't connected at all

As for your last line about they could pay you a billion a month and there's nothing UEFA can do about it, yes,I've already stated that you will get away with it, because rich and powerful people can do what they like, but please don't insult people's intelligence by pushing your shite that its all above board and not flying in the face of everything FFP was supposed to stop
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #142 on: August 23, 2013, 08:48:05 pm »
Its also laughable you trying to seperate the abu dhabi government, and the Al Nahayan family, they are the same entity, what the abu Dhabi government control is what the Al Nahayan family control so stop trying to pretend its something different altogether
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #143 on: August 23, 2013, 08:48:35 pm »
There is a difference between legally correct to the letter of the law and complying with the spirit and intention of the law. City will comply with the letter of the law  - and will have an army of consultants and lawyers to make sure.

However, City are driving a cart and horses through the intentions of FFP. They might not meet the definition of a related entity - but the motivations and scale of the deals are not pure business decisions.

And children, stop bickering.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #144 on: August 24, 2013, 12:12:46 pm »
Typed a long reply last night just as the site went down so I'll try again.

First of all, FFP itself may not be legal under Article 101 of EU Competition law and is being challenged. There is a strong belief among people who know about these things that it iscanti-competitive and may have to take the form of a 'luxury tax'. We'll have to wait and see on that.

Secondly, we were bought 12 months before FFP was on the table so it's not valid to say that Sheikh Mansour bought us with the express intention of breaking the rules. Without FFP there would have been a more measured approach but its introduction meant we had to accelerate our spending. We've only just about cleared up the mess Hughes left, having got rid of most of the players that came with excessively high price tags and wages. Our wage bill in this financial year should be significantly lower than the two previous years and will probably be under the 70% of turnover recommended by UEFA. So that's another indication we intend to abide by the spirit of the rules.

I've already said that Abu Dhabi revenue probably comes to no more than £45m a year. Take all of that out and our turnover is still going to be around the same or higher than yours. And that's without a shirt sponsor, ground sponsor and training campus sponsor. Add in a figure we could reasonably expect as a top four club and our turnover will be significantly greater than yours, even without a penny from Abu Dhabi. So your suggestion that we're not observing the spirit of FFP is blatantly wrong. Our chairman has made it clear that they are seeking to make us self-sufficient and that should be achieved in the current financial year. If, like PSG, we were getting €150m a year from the Qatar Tourist Authority for not very much then I'd agree with you about not abiding by the spirit.

But if we're talking about not abiding by the spirit, let's look at Liverpool's history in football finance. You like your history so I'll give you a lesson.

In the early 1900's Liverpool and City were among the leading clubs. Liverpool FC itself had come about because of a fundamental disagreement between John Houlding and his fellow Everton board members. Houlding had invested a lot of money and felt he was entitled to a return. He wanted to sell his own alcoholic drinks exclusively inside the ground and wanted the club to buy land owned by him but the rest of the Everton board weren't comfortable with this and eventually the high rent he was asking forced them out of Anfield. He then founded Liverpool and got what he wanted. Financial fair play?

The £4 a week maximum wage introduced in 1901 was considerably more than the average working man earned. But the year before it was introduced, bigger teams like Liverpool were known to be paying £7 a week. This was killing the smaller clubs and they forced the FA to introduce the maximum wage at the £4 level. This is probably the last time the smaller clubs got their way. Of course the bigger clubs routinely got round the rules by paying players illicitly or giving them non-existent jobs with directors' companies. We were made an example of (plus ça change) but we weren't the only ones doing it. A pound to a penny you did it as well. You were also the first to break the £10k a week barrier with John Barnes by the way.

Lets fast forward 80 years. Spurs (and other clubs) had already discovered that you could get round both the spirit and letter of FA rules by setting up holding companies. Ground receipts, the main source of club income, are split with 76% being kept by the home club, 20% going to the visiting club and 4% going into a pot which is shared among all clubs. This ensured a relatively level playing field. In the 1960's eight different clubs won the title and six in the 1970's. You were obviously quite dominant then but not excessively so. Then a handful of clubs demanded a change to this revenue sharing system and threatened a breakaway league if they didn't get their way. That was you, United, Everton, Arsenal & Spurs.  As a result the smaller clubs were forced to agree and were left with a situation where the home club got 97% and 3% went into the pot. At a stroke, you and those other clubs had set up the gap between big and small clubs. Since then, in 34 years, the title has been won by someone outside that group of five clubs only 7 times and 5 of those 7 have involved clubs with a 'sugar-daddy' (us, Chelsea & Blackburn). Financial fair play?

Then there's the Sky years. ITV & Sky were battling over the rights to televise football. The 'Big 5' had previously done a deal with ITV that meant it was almost exclusively them shown on TV (but the money was at least shared to a reasonable degree). When the big clubs saw the riches on offer however, all thoughts of sharing went out the window and the PL was formed as a breakaway from the Football League. Two clubs led the negotiations to do that, Liverpool and Arsenal. And so, yet again, you were at the centre of a move which made the rich even richer and stuffed the smaller clubs. Financial fair play?

Then there was Europe, where you've done well. The European Cup was quite a simple format, with the champions of each league going into a straight knock-out. But behind the scenes, the big clubs lobbied for a different format and UEFA saw the financial benefit. So we got the league format and the top two clubs from the bigger leagues. Then 14 clubs, you and United included and later joined by Arsenal, formed the G14 to give themselves a formal platform to lobby UEFA. And they got a bigger share of the prize money, the double league format to maximise revenues, forced UEFA to pay them for players taking part in international games, etc. So again, the rich and powerful got richer and more powerful and dominated their domestic leagues. Financial fair play?

Then along came Roman at Chelsea, then Sheikh Mansour to us, and we found a way to compete. And the 'Big 4', who've done everything to enrich themselves at the expense of others, don't like it and all of a sudden, it's not fair. Well tough fucking titty.




« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 12:15:21 pm by ManchesterBlue »

Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #145 on: August 24, 2013, 12:32:04 pm »
Done everything to enrich themselves at the expense of others?

Do you not realise that if United and Liverpool had not agreed to share TV money equally and negotiated their own TV deals like Madrid/Barca then they would be far away from any other clubs in the league like in Spain?

Granted if that were to happen now Sheik Mansour could just get his brother's TV company to pay £1billion a month to City or some equally outrageous over-inflated deal like the ones you currently enjoy
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #146 on: August 24, 2013, 12:46:19 pm »
Done everything to enrich themselves at the expense of others?

Do you not realise that if United and Liverpool had not agreed to share TV money equally and negotiated their own TV deals like Madrid/Barca then they would be far away from any other clubs in the league like in Spain?

Granted if that were to happen now Sheik Mansour could just get his brother's TV company to pay £1billion a month to City or some equally outrageous over-inflated deal like the ones you currently enjoy
They "agreed to share" because they'd never have got agreement to the PL if they hadn't and it takes 14 clubs to agree to change the rules, which you wouldn't get in a million years. If you thought you could get away with doing it you would.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #147 on: August 24, 2013, 12:54:40 pm »
They "agreed to share" because they'd never have got agreement to the PL if they hadn't and it takes 14 clubs to agree to change the rules, which you wouldn't get in a million years. If you thought you could get away with doing it you would.

I don't think so, it makes the league more competitive which makes it more profitable so the clubs are happy how it is

You are trying to paint City as the plucky underdog punching above his weight here which is laughable, at the end of the day you (and Chelsea) took CL spaces away from clubs such Everton and Spurs, clubs who are trying to get in on merit, not a billionaires whim
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Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #148 on: August 24, 2013, 03:03:24 pm »


Then along came Roman at Chelsea, then Sheikh Mansour to us, and we found a way to compete. And the 'Big 4', who've done everything to enrich themselves at the expense of others, don't like it and all of a sudden, it's not fair. Well tough fucking titty.

I have to say this is the funniest part of your post, you claim a 'big 4' but in fact there have only been 2 constants for the past couple of decades, United and Arsenal, the other 2 spots have been available to fight over if clubs planned well

Roman and Mansour have turned it into a 'big 3'  with there being just one place now for huge clubs like Liverpool, Arsenal and spurs to fight over, you've effectively ended the dreams of clubs like Everton getting into the top 4 through shrewd planning and hardwork, unless of course they get taken over by a sugar daddy, tough fucking titty I suppose eh?

So please stop championing your club as the little guy doing it against the odds, its embarrassing, especially seeing as you've bullied almost every club with your new found wealth
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #149 on: August 24, 2013, 04:08:27 pm »
The use of the word 'fraudulent' is a bit dramatic (although not totally irrelevant).

Fair enough. The point I was making was simply that the onus of proof lies with the club, rather than UEFA. The club needs to be able to prove the deals fulfil the rules, UEFA does not need to prove anything to anybody. It is their competition and they are the final arbiter of whether or not their rules are being breached.

I think Nessy is correct when he described it as 'fraudulent'

Hypothetically speaking, I should add.

I've no axe to grind here, and from what I've read on sites like Swiss Ramble, City seem likely to escape serious sanctions over that particular issue. I don't personally think that the deals as we've seen them described really constitute "fair value" but a) I don't know the details of those deals and b) it's really not an area where I'd be confident making such a judgement.
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #150 on: August 24, 2013, 04:54:04 pm »
Fair enough. The point I was making was simply that the onus of proof lies with the club, rather than UEFA. The club needs to be able to prove the deals fulfil the rules, UEFA does not need to prove anything to anybody. It is their competition and they are the final arbiter of whether or not their rules are being breached.

Hypothetically speaking, I should add.

I've no axe to grind here, and from what I've read on sites like Swiss Ramble, City seem likely to escape serious sanctions over that particular issue. I don't personally think that the deals as we've seen them described really constitute "fair value" but a) I don't know the details of those deals and b) it's really not an area where I'd be confident making such a judgement.
In regard to your first point, it's something not many people understand and even UEFA pronouncements about investigating the Etihad deal were completely misleading. It did make me wonder if they even understood their own procedures.

The point I was perhaps laboriously trying to make was that UEFA did not invent the concepts of related parties and fair value for an 'arm's length' transaction.

And as you say in your second point, no one actually knows what the deals are worth, which makes it difficult to take a sensible view. And then how do you determine 'fair value'? You'd benchmark a deal against similar, recent deals. But you could only do that if you knew what the other deals were worth and presumably that's commercially sensitive.

Offline Acaustiq

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #151 on: August 25, 2013, 03:56:41 am »
'Fair value' has to be assessed by the reporting party (i.e. the club) for any related party transaction.

Quote
Examples of related party transactions that require a licensee to demonstrate the estimated fair value of the transaction include:
Sale of sponsorship rights by a club to a related party;
• Sale of corporate hospitality tickets, and/or use of an executive box, by a club to a related party; and
• Any transaction with a related party whereby goods or services are provided to a club.

'Demonstrate' - that assessment has to be grounded in some kind of market reality or you are entering the realm of criminal fraud.

Etihad and City not related?

I think Nessy is correct when he described it as 'fraudulent'

If city submit accounts to the panel in which the money they've received from related parties like etihad isn't marked down to fair value (and going by what they received from Nike, that should be by about 50%) then yes, that would be fraud.

But we don't know if they've broken any laws until they submit those accounts, likewise we'll probably have to submit the bid we received from Nike to justify our deal with Warrior who I'd expect to be termed a related party.

Etihad is run by Mansour's brother and iirc at the time they'd signed those deals had never turned a profit, they're a related party.

Quote
3. An entity is related to a reporting entity if any of the following conditions apply:
a) The entity and the reporting entity are members of the same group (which means that each parent, subsidiary and fellow subsidiary is related to the others);
b) One entity is an associate or joint venture of the other entity (or an associate or joint venture of a member of a group of which the other entity is amember);
c) Both entities are joint ventures of the same third party;
d) One entity is a joint venture of a third entity and the other entity is an associate of the third entity;
e) The entity is a post-employment benefit plan for the benefit of employees of either the reporting entity or an entity related to the reporting entity. If the reporting entity is itself such a plan, the sponsoring employers are also related to the reporting entity;
f) The entity is controlled or jointly controlled by a person identified in paragraph 2; or
g) A person identified in paragraph 2(a) has significant influence over the entity or is a member of the key management personnel of the entity (or of a parent of the entity).

4. With reference to paragraphs 1 to 3 above, the following definitions apply:
a) Close members of the family of a person are those family members who may be expected to influence, or be influenced by, that individual in their dealings with the entity. They may include that person’s children and spouse or domestic partner, children of that person’s spouse or domestic partner, and dependants of that person or that person’s spouse or domestic partner.
b) Control is the power to govern the financial and operating policies of an entity so as to obtain benefits from its activities.
c) A joint venture is a contractual arrangement whereby two or more parties undertake an economic activity that is subject to joint control.
d) Joint control is the contractually agreed sharing of control over an economic activity, and exists only when the strategic financial and operating decisions relating to the activity require the unanimous consent of the parties sharing control (the venturers).
e) Key management personnel are those persons having authority and responsibility for planning, directing and controlling the activities of the entity, directly or indirectly, including any director (whether executive or otherwise) of that entity.
f) Significant influence is the power to participate in the financial and operating policy decisions of an entity, but is not control over those policies. Significant influence may be gained by share ownership, statute or agreement.
g) An associate is an entity, including an unincorporated entity such as a partnership, over which the investor has significant influence and that is neither a subsidiary nor an interest in a joint venture. In the definition of a related party, an associate includes subsidiaries of the associate and a joint venture includes subsidiaries of the joint venture. Therefore, for example, an associate's subsidiary and the investor that has significant influence over the associate are related to each other.

I know that the clubs have to provide 'proof', but the point here is that if UEFA can't possibly prove collusion, then they can be as suspicious as they want. how are they supposed to accurately assess this 'proof' on anything other than on face value? All they have to say is that we are not colluding and show a sufficient distance between the ownership of the two organizations. The point is that "What happens on the golf course stays on the golf course," is a weakness in almost all financial regulatory systems.

They don't need to prove collusion, why would they? UEFA are a private company and they're the arbiters, they're not conducting a criminal investigation.

As I said, read the rules.

And I'm not the one that compared their deals to man utd. They did. They publicly and officially justified the size of the deals by comparing them to leading premiership commercial contracts, and said that since they were a top premiership club, it was normal for them to have that level of commercial income.

The fact that the contracts are insanely big then slips through the rules because Man utd get £23 million for rebranding their training ground and their training kit.

I'd be interested to see where they claimed this because it doesn't 'slip through the rules' at all.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 04:19:37 am by Acaustiq »
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #152 on: August 25, 2013, 01:31:37 pm »
You have to laugh really when you think about it. FFP has turned us all into bloody lawyers and accountants.

To answer your points Acaustiq, I appreciate what you're trying to say but you've taken some paragraphs and sentences out of context, plus you're looking at it purely in terms of people rather than legal entities. The terms "control" and significant influence" have specific meanings in accounting-speak. The former means having greater than 50% of the shares and the latter between 20 & 50%.

You also missed out paragraphs 1 & 2 of the definition of related parties, which are absolutely critical to understanding this. These say:

Quote
1. A related party is a person or entity that is related to the entity that is preparing its financial statements (the ‘reporting entity’).
2. A person or a close member of that person’s family is related to a reporting entity if that person:
a) has control or joint control over the reporting entity;
b) has significant influence over the reporting entity; or
c) is a member of the key management personnel of the reporting entity or of a parent of the reporting entity.

So there are a number of parties invloved here and we have to use those rules to determine if they are related parties. There's the reporting entity, which is Manchester City plc. The shares are 100% owned by a company called ADUG, which is 100% owned by Sheikh Mansour. Therefore Sheikh Mansour controls Manchester City plc and, under 2(a) they are certainly related parties. any transactions between Sheikh Mansour/ADUG and Manchester City are related party transactions. One example was the sale of IP rights in the 2012 accounts and that was indeed reported as an RPT. If that's allowable revenue for FFP and isn't fair value then it will have to be reported at a lower amount.

Then there's Etihad, which is 100% owned by the Abu Dhabi government so let's see if it satisfies the definition of a related party vis a vis the reporting entity (i.e. City).

Does it have control or joint control over City? No, because it owns no shares and it has to own 50.1% to satisfy this.
Does it have significant influence over City? No, because it owns no shares and it has to own 20-50% to satisfy this.
Is Sheikh Mohammed or anyone else in the Al Nahyan family a member of the key management personnel of Manchester City? No as he's not even a non-executive director, let alone an executive one. Nor is Etihad a parent company of Manchester City. So Etihad and City are certainly not related parties under this definition.

Two of the Al-Nahyan family sit on the governing, non-executive board (Sheikhs Khalifa & Hamid) but according to the formal definition they don't count as "close". There is a director on both City and Etihad's boards, Mohamed Al Mazrouie, but that in itself does not constitute a related party. City have not declared the revenue from Etihad as being a related party transaction in any of their accounts so I think it's safe to assume they're not.

What probably happened is that Abu Dhabi saw the success of the Emirates airline and the promotion of Dubai and wanted some of that. Despite being a federal group of states, they're quite competitive I understand and AD is 'old money' whereas Dubai is a bit "fur coat and no knickers". So the Al Nahyans put their heads together and came up with the idea of buying a PL football club, as well as building an F1 circuit. Both are high-profile global sports.

As part of that, there would have been a plan to promote Abu Dhabi and particularly its airline. Having City owned by Sheikh Mansour's ADUG company was a convenient way to do that. Don't forget that FFP wasn't introduced until 12 months after the takeover so that wasn't the specific intention. Much more likely that they wanted to be able to demonstrate some separation between the Abu Dhabi government and City and that was the best way of doing that.

Your point about Liverpool, FSG and Warrior is also incorrect on the same basis. If Warrior or New Balance were owned by FSG (or vice versa), they were a joint-venture or one person or close family member of someone at New Balance or Warrior had control or influence over Liverpool then they would be related partes according to the rules. I think you're implying that there was an existing relationship via the Red Sox (and that's undoubtedly how Warrior got the chance of the gig at LFC) but, again, that's a subjective interpretation of what is a quite tightly defined concept.


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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #153 on: August 25, 2013, 01:41:31 pm »

But we don't know if they've broken any laws until they submit those accounts, likewise we'll probably have to submit the bid we received from Nike to justify our deal with Warrior who I'd expect to be termed a related party.

On what basis are New Balance/Warrior related to FSG?
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #154 on: August 25, 2013, 01:46:58 pm »
On what basis are New Balance/Warrior related to FSG?

They make the Red Sox kit maybe?

But that's like saying Chelsea are up to something funny because Abramovich as a Samsung TV on of his boats.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #155 on: August 25, 2013, 01:50:26 pm »
They make the Red Sox kit maybe?

But that's like saying Chelsea are up to something funny because Abramovich as a Samsung TV on of his boats.
I believe one of the Glazers' third cousins twice-removed on their mothers side works for Chevrolet so we can scrub that deal as well.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #156 on: August 25, 2013, 02:13:40 pm »
I believe one of the Glazers' third cousins twice-removed on their mothers side works for Chevrolet so we can scrub that deal as well.

Even if that were true it wouldn't make Citys deals any more legit!
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Offline Ben_AFC

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #157 on: August 25, 2013, 02:23:47 pm »
Not sure if this has been picked up on here or not, but I listened to this excellent podcast featuring Stefan Szymanski on FFP today and it's potential unintended outcomes.

http://worldsoccertalk.com/2013/08/22/this-week-in-soccer-financial-fair-play-and-world-cup-2022-in-qatar/

This is the mentioned article by Stefan Szymanski which appeared in the FT that was referred to in the podcast.

http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=527

Well since no one picked up on this I'll C&P the entire article as I think the arguments are quite compelling. In his article Stefan Szymanski argues that FFP will ossify European football, and entrench those teams already at the top in such a manner it will bring in an era in which leagues are in fact de-facto 'closed' leagues as found in US sports.

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This will be the last year of European football as we know it. The “open” system by which the sport has long operated is now coming to an end, and will quickly become a “closed” American-style system.

This is all down to Financial Fair Play, the new regulatory system adopted by Uefa, European football’s governing body, which will bite next year. Instead of just tallying goals scored and conceded, fans will have to learn complicated rules about “break-even” and club licensing to work out who their opponents will be. Sporting merit will no longer be the sole criterion for success in competition.

 This will be a big change for European football, a defining facet of which has long been the notion that anyone, anywhere, can set up a club and, through the pyramid system of promotion and relegation, aspire to play in the Champions League. Not that this is very likely, but there is still much mobility. Of the 104 teams that played in the top four English divisions between 2001 and 2010, only 26 stayed in the same division for the decade; the same number played at three different levels; and two teams managed to play in all four.
But this openness has also caused financial chaos. The last time anyone said that English football’s finances were healthy was the 1950s, when the players’ pay was capped at £20 a week and less than half of the population had a television. The same is true across Europe, where many clubs have fallen into cycles of extravagant spending, temporary success followed by financial disaster, retrenchment, frequent changes of ownership and the injection of new money.

Uefa tells us that in 2011, 63 per cent of clubs in Europe’s top divisions were reporting an operating loss and 55 per cent reported a net loss overall; 38 per cent reported negative net equity, and 16 per cent of club accounts contained a qualification expressed by the auditors as to the financial viability of the company. This is despite the fact that club revenues have grown at an annual rate of 5.6 per cent in the past five years.

So Uefa’s controls require clubs to break even, or face sanctions that could include exclusion from their lucrative competitions. But the regulations are complex and offer opportunities for litigation by disgruntled clubs. The rules will lack credibility if too many big clubs fail to meet the criteria early on. Will they all be barred? And what of the biggest names? Would any self-respecting fan want Barcelona or Real Madrid excluded?

Even so, this all brings Europe a little closer to the US, whose leading sports leagues have developed hugely successful championships based on a shifting bargain among franchise owners. Rules for sharing revenues and limiting player pay are designed to maintain a competitive balance between teams. Entry is strictly limited – buying into the National Football League or Major League Baseball will cost you upwards of $1bn today – and the rewards of this exclusivity are also huge. The leagues mostly give the fans what they want, and profit royally.

Europe is not there yet. Uefa has studiously denied that maintaining competitive balance between clubs is an object of FFP. Its plan, it says, is not to make sure that humble Crystal Palace has a chance to compete at the top of the English Premier League against Manchester United. And for good reason: the new rules are actually likely to ossify European competition and limit the potential for big clubs of today to be challenged.

Similar regulations are creeping in at national level. England’s Premier League now has a rule limiting wage bill rises to £4m a year for clubs already spending more than £52m. Of the league’s 20 clubs, 14 spend at or below this level, while the “big six” spend more than £100m – there are no plausible mechanisms for the smaller clubs ever to close this gap and compete.

But such ossification is a first step to a closed system – for which there are advantages. Well-matched teams are usually more attractive to watch than David and Goliath contests, however much we like fairy tales. There is more chance to see the biggest stars play each other in a closed system, and more potential for investment, whether in player training, stadiums or broadcasting.

But this is not football’s tradition. The open system of promotion and relegation has a romantic appeal, and makes for an intensity of competition US leagues sometimes lack. Moreover, financial chaos may have caused owners to lose money but almost never leads to the demise of clubs. As a system, the open model has been stable and attractive largely because of the gyrations of the individual clubs. It also limits the capacity of wealthy owners to leach large profits out of the game: no one is safe from competition.

It is ironic that Uefa, and many of those who lobby on behalf of fans, see the US system as anathema but seem to be doing everything possible to ensure its adoption. The Premier League welcomed another American owner last month, bringing the total to six, all of whom understand the two systems very well and are fully committed to the new regulation. They, at least, know where they are heading.
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Offline Wingman

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #158 on: August 25, 2013, 07:44:48 pm »
He did not ask whether they complied with FFP rules. He asked whether they are fair value.

Oh, and stop being an arse. I should remind you that high maintenance fans of other clubs don't tend to last long here. They are too much grief.  Be civil please.

I think both Manc lads have been a good value actually. I'd rather read their posts than 90% of the crap that our supposed supporters post on here. Oh, and I like Gary Neville's punditry too.

There, I've said it ... Now let normal service resume.


Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #159 on: August 25, 2013, 10:29:06 pm »
So Manchester Blue, lets me get a few things straight,The Abu Dhabi Executive Council is the government of Abu Dhabi? Correct?

Its government owns and runs the big companies of the emirate and the council members sit on the boards of said companies, Correct?

City owner Sheik Mansour is deputy prime minister of the council, alongside many of his family members who sit on the various boards of the government run companies, such as Etihad chairman and  Mansour's half brother, Hamed al Nahayan, The City chairman Khaldoon also sits on this executive council.

My question to you is this,
It what universe are these not related parties? Its a royal family who run the government which in turn run the companies, how are they not related?
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