Author Topic: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC  (Read 62738 times)

Online John C

  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,224
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #40 on: November 3, 2013, 10:58:49 pm »
Some great points Prof, pretty much a summary of what I've poorly posted in bits over the last 24 hours.

Offline trembles97

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,714
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #41 on: November 3, 2013, 11:06:26 pm »
Agree with Prof, we should definitely be exploring the option of playing a lone striker. Whether that is Suarez, or Sturridge, I don't know, but ideally we'd have three front players, with two wide forwards supporting the lone forward up top. My heart says put Sturridge centrally, but my brain says Suarez.

And where does that leave Coutinho? On the left? I'd rather have him as a #10, but I think that'd have to wait until January, when we can ideally buy a "destroyer" type CM to give him more protection.

Offline Filler.

  • Up. resurrected. Keeps his Kath in a cage, but not sure if the new baby is in there as well. Studying for a Masters in Semiotics.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,767
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #42 on: November 3, 2013, 11:06:35 pm »
The ref blowing for the foul isn't the issue. It's that Suarez took the resulting free kick quickly (and should be entitled to do so, particularly as the reason Sagna deliberately fouled was to slow down the play, gaining an unfair advantage) but the ref didn't let it run.  Very frrustrating, as we needed to make the few opportunities we had to score count, and that was probably our best.

It was/is frustrating. But it was such an obvious foul, in the refs mind it needed a sharp whistle, and you can't blame him for that - it wasn't one of those situations where the ref thought there was an obvious chance for advantage.

It's funny, but it reminded me of watching Stoichkov for Barca, who would often/occasionally, get straight back up after an obvious foul, and look to carry things on, and he got given that extra amount of time for a Ref to make a decision.

When there's a player like Suarez... and he's definitely being fouled, the Ref can rejoice in the fact that yes, he has definitely been fouled here, and I'm going to enjoy the moment in being 100% correct. And he's going to go full in with it.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,499
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #43 on: November 3, 2013, 11:07:26 pm »
some great posts in here. al's single sentence on footballers and athletes sums up our limitations.
Their goals were far too easy.

1st Cissoko beaten far too easily, with no-one tracking Cazorla - Lucas/Flannagan take your pick. No surprise he was hooked at h.t.

2nd Kolo turned his back on the Ramsey shot.

Both preventable. But the best team (by a distance) won.

agree on the goals being preventable, but think mignolet was more to blame for the second. he lead with his wrong hand, and in fact kept his right hand completely down.

better technique and he'd have saved that, personally think he's better than conceding like that

Offline Garstonite

  • Scouse Wash House
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,352
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #44 on: November 3, 2013, 11:07:41 pm »
I was quick to call the defeat to Southampton a reality check, but I think this game really put some things into perspective. Arsenal are a much better team than us. It's that simple. There's no point getting angry or annoyed about it, it's just the way it is at the moment.

I think they've got a really good chance of winning the league this year for the simple fact that they have been the most consistent squad over the past 5+ years. On that note, we're going in the right direction. We're making steady progress under Rodgers in terms of the standard of players in our squad and the football we're playing.

I think these kind of games show up certain players, which is unfortunate. I thought Henderson looked completely lost. Cissokho had you longing for Enrique, which is hardly an endorsement. Lucas and Gerrard as a combination just aren't cutting it at the moment and I'm failing to see this "monster" we're meant to have brought in in Sakho, who to me looks completely rash and lost positionally. Maybe the system isn't helping him, I don't know.

All in all, we can only move on to the next game, but I think this should be a lesson people return to in the event expectations get out of hand again. I'm all for optimism. It's what the game is about to a large degree, but yesterday was as good an example of a gulf in class between two top sides as you're likely to see.
« Last Edit: November 3, 2013, 11:09:32 pm by Garstonite »

Offline Aristotle

  • is a bugger for the bottle. Apache tool wielder extraordinaire - especially in wardrobes. The 'Oral B' Specialist.....brushes his cavities vigorously outdoors.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,438
  • Happiness depends upon ourselves
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #45 on: November 3, 2013, 11:10:09 pm »
Not much to say that hasn't already been said. Full credit to Arsenal, as much as I hate to say it, but they got what they set up for and we did to an extent. Cissokho still seems some way of match fitness (i.e. physical shape, understanding the team and the league) and Flanagan is definitely a defender first, second and third.

The problem however was midfield. A lot of sitting, a lot of pointless movement - a.k.a. "the Charlie Adam" - and then losing the shape when trying to press Arsenal's midfielders. Henderson was doing the work of 3 when he really should've been focused on doing the work of 1. Gerrard and Lucas as a 'CL quality' partnership is pretty much done. Gerrard's aging legs and post-injury Lucas just can't cut it any more. They're still better than your average 15 in the league and come Fulham, much like against West Brom, they will do well. The problem is that Lucas lacks his former physicality and relentlessness. Remember when he tackled Yaya Toure and the Ivorian fell flat on the floor? Or when he got ahead of David Silva with a single flick of the hip and both player and ball were out of play. Now he reads the game well and passes it sharply. But he's become the second fiddle, a lead violin is needed.

Gerrard is every bit the problem he was 3 years ago. Too good to drop when in-form. Too good in memory. Not good or fit enough to play every minute of every game he is available for. Yet he still does. There were several moments in the match against Arsenal that screamed "I really could've used 30 minutes' rest against West Brom, not 3". Gerrard, and by that extension Liverpool, don't know how to play when he is played out of the game. For all the talk, which is mostly desire from fans and arguably the player himself, Gerrard will not be the next Pirlo. Pirlo's off the ball movement is phenomenal*. He will drag his marker out of position and run himself out of the game to benefit the team. Now you can argue that Pirlo had the luxury of being "just" a fantastic player, without the burden of doing anything else. Coming to a team captained by Alessandro Del Piero first and then Gigi Buffon, an inspiring captain too, is surely a lessened burden on troubled legs. All he has to do is be the brain, the heart has been provided for. And thus comes clear Gerrard's and Liverpool's problem. Pirlo is being pushed out by Paul Pogba. He was last season. He is now and there is even talk of not renewing his contract, such is the faith in young Pogba. Now the likes of Pogba come along once in a blue moon or a generation of players. But just because you have one, doesn't mean you can't have the other. Liverpool, and Liverpool fans especially, take anything on that nature as direct challenge on Gerrard's legacy. When I argued that we should've signed Gerrard's replacement with the Alonso money people hounded me out, saying I didn't understand the club or what it represented. Gerrard is now past the top, there is no arguing that. His "fall" from the top is still quite far above what most players will ever achieve in a lifetime. And when he hangs up his boots, whenever or wherever that may be, he will still be at a level most players will only hope to achieve. But it has to be addressed. It should've been done in the summer. It should be done in January at least. Gerrard was bad against Arsenal. He was probably worse against Southampton. If it had been Joe Allen there'd be a lynch mob out for him. Gerrard needs to be managed much more effeciently or he will ruin his own career. Giving up England would certainly help there, but sadly won't happen.

A lot of things went wrong in this game. We failed to play from the back. Our wide play was non-existant. No slight on Flanagan but all his crosses were reeked of putting the ball into the box and hope that would satisfy the onlookers, rather than ever aiming for his team mates there. Cissokho, as previously mentioned isn't where he should be or could be. It was a 5-3-2 rather than a 3-5-2 (yeah numbers mean fuck all, but you know what I mean). Johnson was a huge absence and with him in the squad our weaknesses wouldn't have been exposed as terribly as turned out. We played into their hands. We didn't track the runners for the opener. We didn't close down the most in-form player in the Arsenal squad and we were robbed of a goal(scoring chance at least) by an absolutely mindboggling decision from Atkinson, who punished us twice by robbing the counter and then the advantage.

Shit happens. Chelsea dropped points, Spurs and Everton failed to overtake us and after losing to the league leaders away, we're sitting 3rd, on goal difference from 2nd and next round we'll face 16th place Fulham at Anfield. Honestly. If you offered me this before the start of the season I would've bit your hand off. The fact that I feel mildly disappointed with it, says just how good we've been this season and the progress Rodgers is making. Live and let live.






*more on that in due time. 
My twitter
If Harry can get Spurs to the CL 1/4 final then he could get England to the World Cup final.

Offline Anthony

  • Snot a Sailing Specialist. Has not signed for Manchester United. Misses Santa's knee!!!!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,323
  • We don't need anyone to tell us this is golden...
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #46 on: November 3, 2013, 11:10:24 pm »
So how would we have felt if the Referee had let us take the kick, it had led to nothing and Sagna had not been booked - because once play has restarted the Ref can't issue the card.
"We will win the European Cup one day. Aim for the moon and end up among the stars" - Gérard Houllier 2001

Thankyou Rafa and Jürgen  for taking us to Heaven!

"Hicks could have purchased Dallas' MLS franchise but decided not to. 'In hindsight, I probably made the wrong decision' he said" - Sports Illustrated/AP 2007

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #47 on: November 3, 2013, 11:15:45 pm »
some great posts in here. al's single sentence on footballers and athletes sums up our limitations.
agree on the goals being preventable, but think mignolet was more to blame for the second. he lead with his wrong hand, and in fact kept his right hand completely down.

better technique and he'd have saved that, personally think he's better than conceding like that

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think Mignolet realises it will be a stretch to get to it, and the longest stretch a goalkeeper can make from his leaping foot is with his opposite hand, not the same hand. From right foot to left hand is longer than from right foot to right hand, and it's a standard technique to teach goalkeepers. I'm certain a good proportion of keepers would have attempted the same technique.
Better looking than Samie.

Online John C

  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,224
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #48 on: November 3, 2013, 11:16:54 pm »
That's a sobering post which I agree with entirely Garstonite except perhaps about Sakho, I remain enthused about him to be honest mate. I was happy to accept that gulf in class yesterday while many didn't want to believe it and tried to accentuate the positive, which there were some, about our own game. They were neat, strong and too quick for us in so many positions and even though I could see it being game-on had we scored on 70 mins onwards, the fact is we didn't. They cemented their place at the top.

Offline Filler.

  • Up. resurrected. Keeps his Kath in a cage, but not sure if the new baby is in there as well. Studying for a Masters in Semiotics.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,767
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #49 on: November 3, 2013, 11:17:26 pm »
Suarez and Sturridge didn't get much opportunity to isolate the centre backs.  Henderson's run at 0-0 was interesting as both CBs got pulled (and were happy to go) in opposite directions by the movement of the front two.  I think this as much as anything surprised Henderson as he delayed in what was the most promising position we had in the match.


Henderson is simply surprised by space.


Quote
On the left, I'd put Johnson, he's demonstrated before he can be effective on that side, and to be honest, I think our other options are liabilities for different reasons.

I think there's an idea there... Johnson left, Henderson right. I can see the value of that, tho not ideal. Left field idea... Johnson right, Sterling left. I'll just chuck that in.

Offline Garstonite

  • Scouse Wash House
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,352
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #50 on: November 3, 2013, 11:19:14 pm »
That's a sobering post which I agree with entirely Garstonite except perhaps about Sakho, I remain enthused about him to be honest mate. I was happy to accept that gulf in class yesterday while many didn't want to believe it and tried to accentuate the positive, which there were some, about our own game. They were neat, strong and too quick for us in so many positions and even though I could see it being game-on had we scored on 70 mins onwards, the fact is we didn't. They cemented their place at the top.

I think Sakho is in the side based on his price-tag alone. Years ago, you bring in a player like that and you phase them in over time. It doesn't help that we're only fighting in one competition at the moment. But if you're going to play a left-sided centre half in a back three, you choose the one with seven years Premier League experience who also happens to be your best defender by a country mile. Maybe I'm just old fashioned. ;D

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,499
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #51 on: November 3, 2013, 11:25:53 pm »
because once play has restarted the Ref can't issue the card.

thats not true is it?

Offline Prof

  • fessor Yaffle. Full tosser.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,019
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • The Alternative Premier League Table
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #52 on: November 3, 2013, 11:27:22 pm »
I think Sakho is in the side based on his price-tag alone. Years ago, you bring in a player like that and you phase them in over time. It doesn't help that we're only fighting in one competition at the moment. But if you're going to play a left-sided centre half in a back three, you choose the one with seven years Premier League experience who also happens to be your best defender by a country mile. Maybe I'm just old fashioned. ;D
I'm impressed with Sakho.  I might be wrong on this, but I see something in him which I see in the best defenders, and it's the awareness of danger before most notice it.  It will probably look like rash decision making at times, but I don't think it is, I think he's calm in the decisions he makes, and makes an all or nothing judgement.

I also love Agger, and I think it's only a question of time before he steps into the midde of the back three, which will look more like a midfielder dropping in than a third CB.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #53 on: November 3, 2013, 11:27:58 pm »
So how would we have felt if the Referee had let us take the kick, it had led to nothing and Sagna had not been booked - because once play has restarted the Ref can't issue the card.

Ref can issue the card on the next stoppage of play.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,499
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #54 on: November 3, 2013, 11:29:01 pm »
I'm not sure I agree with that. I think Mignolet realises it will be a stretch to get to it, and the longest stretch a goalkeeper can make from his leaping foot is with his opposite hand, not the same hand. From right foot to left hand is longer than from right foot to right hand, and it's a standard technique to teach goalkeepers. I'm certain a good proportion of keepers would have attempted the same technique.

not questioning the thought on his leading foot, you make a very good point on his decision.

however the ball was right of centre for him, and it was a hard and high shot. his right hand would have reached around 6 inches higher than his left, which required arching his body back and to the right

Offline Garstonite

  • Scouse Wash House
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,352
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #55 on: November 3, 2013, 11:31:02 pm »
I'm impressed with Sakho.  I might be wrong on this, but I see something in him which I see in the best defenders, and it's the awareness of danger before most notice it.  It will probably look like rash decision making at times, but I don't think it is, I think he's calm in the decisions he makes, and makes an all or nothing judgement.

I also love Agger, and I think it's only a question of time before he steps into the midde of the back three, which will look more like a midfielder dropping in than a third CB.

I see all the same things in Sakho that people are quick - and I mean fucking QUICK - to have a go at in Skrtel with added comedy value, Djimi Traore-esque collapsing ironing board tackles and slices towards his own goal.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #56 on: November 3, 2013, 11:31:16 pm »
not questioning the thought on his leading foot, you make a very good point on his decision.

however the ball was right of centre for him, and it was a hard and high shot. his right hand would have reached around 6 inches higher than his left, which required arching his body back and to the right

I'll have to look at it again. I thought it was going across and over him, hence the cross-body stretch.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline stoa

  • way. Daydream. Quite partial to a good plonking.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,421
  • Five+One Times, Baby...
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #57 on: November 3, 2013, 11:31:49 pm »
Ref can issue the card on the next stoppage of play.

He can't... It says in the Laws of the Game: "Once the referee has decided to issue a card, whether to caution or send off a player, play must not be restarted until the sanction has been administered." He can book a player later, if he has played the advantage, but that didn't happen in this case as Suarez went down, the whistle was blown and play was stopped...
« Last Edit: November 3, 2013, 11:34:50 pm by stoa »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #58 on: November 3, 2013, 11:34:06 pm »
He can't... It says in the Laws of the Game: "Once the referee has decided to issue a card, whether to caution or send off a player, play must not be restarted until the sanction has been administered."

You're misinterpreting it. It means that he can't allow play to restart until the booking is made - as in he can't be booking the player while the ball is in play. However, he can play a quick free kick and call the player back on the next stoppage of play - in much the same way that he can book a player for persistent infringement for a minor infraction following 3 or 4 other infractions in quick succession.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline stoa

  • way. Daydream. Quite partial to a good plonking.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,421
  • Five+One Times, Baby...
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #59 on: November 3, 2013, 11:36:48 pm »
You're misinterpreting it. It means that he can't allow play to restart until the booking is made - as in he can't be booking the player while the ball is in play. However, he can play a quick free kick and call the player back on the next stoppage of play - in much the same way that he can book a player for persistent infringement for a minor infraction following 3 or 4 other infractions in quick succession.

But the ball isn't in play, after he has blown his whistle for the freekick. Therefore, he cannot allow the freekick to be taken quickly, if he wants to issue a card...

Offline Aristotle

  • is a bugger for the bottle. Apache tool wielder extraordinaire - especially in wardrobes. The 'Oral B' Specialist.....brushes his cavities vigorously outdoors.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,438
  • Happiness depends upon ourselves
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #60 on: November 3, 2013, 11:38:46 pm »
I think Sakho is in the side based on his price-tag alone. Years ago, you bring in a player like that and you phase them in over time. It doesn't help that we're only fighting in one competition at the moment. But if you're going to play a left-sided centre half in a back three, you choose the one with seven years Premier League experience who also happens to be your best defender by a country mile. Maybe I'm just old fashioned. ;D

I couldn't disagree more, to be honest. I think Sakho is superb. Honestly I think that in Sakho Rodgers has found the closest thing available to him, to what he saw in Ricardo Carvalho during his time there. Someone on the front foot. Who will dart out of the defence, making ass-clenching tackles inside his own box, making running interceptions and make your life very difficult if you ever come one-on-one against him.
My twitter
If Harry can get Spurs to the CL 1/4 final then he could get England to the World Cup final.

Offline Garstonite

  • Scouse Wash House
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,352
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #61 on: November 3, 2013, 11:39:49 pm »
I couldn't disagree more, to be honest. I think Sakho is superb. Honestly I think that in Sakho Rodgers has found the closest thing available to him, to what he saw in Ricardo Carvalho during his time there. Someone on the front foot. Who will dart out of the defence, making ass-clenching tackles inside his own box, making running interceptions and make your life very difficult if you ever come one-on-one against him.

Sorry to sound like a miserable twat, but Sakho hasn't got half the technique Carvalho did, so I don't see the comparison whatsoever.

Offline Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,621
  • Brace for Impact
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #62 on: November 3, 2013, 11:40:11 pm »
Pictures with Some Text



The gap between our attack and midfield is huge, when Henderson presses high up the pitch, the rest of the team need to push up to close the mass chasm between attack and defense. This allowed Arteta time and space on the ball.



Arteta has gone a further 40 yards up the pitch without challenge, Sakho comes out of defense and Cissokho is admiring Mamadou's thighs instead of being a good yard or two in front of Sagna. Troubles brewing.



Sagna receives a simple through ball from Arteta and Cissokho doesn't even stick his foot out to try and block the cross.



Carzola heads the ball, Skrtel and Toure are both in excellent positions, both can see the ball and the Arsenal players in the box.



Skrtel takes a step to his left, leaving room for Carzola to run into. With Carzola's momentum, he can only run into that space, why Skrtel takes a big step to his left, I don't know.



This is moments before a poor pass from Toure to Skrtel gifts a chance to Giroud. Gerrard receives the ball and has four options to his right hand side, instead he plays a pressure inducing ball to Toure. We had problems with composure and awareness in midfield all afternoon.

Thoughts

In tight games, the first goal is always crucial and after we started well, we gave them huge amounts of confidence by conceding such a poor goal. I thought it would Ozil who would open up a defense, not a 40 yard unchallenged run from Mikel Arteta and an unchallenged cross from Bacary Sagna.

The amount of goals we have conceded this season from individual lapses of concentration has been infuriating. Cissokho has left me yearning for Enrique's comeback and our Spanish amateur body builder must be thrilled to see there still isn't any competition at left back.

Quite a few people have been picking out Gerrard for losing Carzola but when Carzola heads the ball, we have all three centre backs and Lucas in or near the box. Skrtel is guilty of ball watching as the man covering the space that Carzola eventually runs into it. He has an annoying knack of being in a perfect position and then taking a step at the last second into an awful position.

Arsenal did a good job of reducing Sturridge and Suarez's threat, when they did have chances, they weren't their usual clinical selves and we had no-one else left to pick up the slack. Henderson's chance in the first half really highlighted that, he didn't have the composure to take the chance or even get a clean shot away. Coutinho is an obvious answer but Arsenal's game plan was to stop Suarez and Sturridge, even going into Stoke anti-football at one point, Rodgers needs to be prepared to switch things up when they're getting targeted.

On the quickly taken free kick, I understand that the ref wanted to book Sagna but we end up being punished twice. Suarez is ahead of Sagna, one-on-one with Mertesacker and is hauled to the ground. Arsenal bodies have already started to recover, we take them by surprise and Sturridge is in behind and the whistle is blown again. Why can't we take a quick free kick and the ref book Sagna at the next break in play? It's still a yellow card whether it's a quick free kick or not.

Online John C

  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,224
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #63 on: November 3, 2013, 11:43:01 pm »
I think Sakho is in the side based on his price-tag alone. Years ago, you bring in a player like that and you phase them in over time. It doesn't help that we're only fighting in one competition at the moment. But if you're going to play a left-sided centre half in a back three, you choose the one with seven years Premier League experience who also happens to be your best defender by a country mile. Maybe I'm just old fashioned. ;D
Perhaps a bit more that price tag mate, I think he gets his place based on questions over both Skrtel & Agger's inconsistent performances. You're not being old fashioned though because although Skrtel seems to have retained his place recently, Agger is supposed to be the better option if we want to play football in a way Agger can contribute to. Which makes me wonder what's behind it all. One out of favour last season, the other this?
BR is determined to have his own man in there who has for me Sakho shown some promising qualities. Far better than Cissokho in his respective position putting aside some of Sakho's unusual moves in his first game.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #64 on: November 3, 2013, 11:43:02 pm »
But the ball isn't in play, when he has blown his whistle for the freekick. Therefore, he cannot allow the freekick to be taken quickly, if he wants to issue a card...

If the ref plays the quick free kick advantage, he can issue the card at the next stoppage.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Aristotle

  • is a bugger for the bottle. Apache tool wielder extraordinaire - especially in wardrobes. The 'Oral B' Specialist.....brushes his cavities vigorously outdoors.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,438
  • Happiness depends upon ourselves
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #65 on: November 3, 2013, 11:44:12 pm »
Sorry to sound like a miserable twat, but Sakho hasn't got half the technique Carvalho did, so I don't see the comparison whatsoever.

Closest thing avilable to him. The Carvalho equivelant would be Jerome Boateng, from the reigning European Champions. I mean in terms of defending. Carvalho always looked a bit mental when defending. He did what David Luiz does so well at times, only he did it every game. Sakho is on the front foot and he cuts off danger before it's an issue. He was out of position for the opener, but there were a number of times in the game where Sakho snuffed out the attack before any Arsenal player got into a position of danger
My twitter
If Harry can get Spurs to the CL 1/4 final then he could get England to the World Cup final.

Online John C

  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,224
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #66 on: November 3, 2013, 11:48:21 pm »
If the ref plays the quick free kick advantage, he can issue the card at the next stoppage.
I think what needs clearing is if he can, Stoa seems to be suggesting that ref's can't wait until a second dead ball, it has to be done then. He's saying an advantage is when play isn't stopped following a foul.

I got it wrong last night when trying to understand it.

Offline -Daws-

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,912
  • No longer a teenage Rafa, still no goatee.
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #67 on: November 3, 2013, 11:48:41 pm »
First things first: the better side won, unfortunately.

I was one of those before the game advocating a Liverpool win. I thought that although Arsenal are both technically and physically superior in midfield, that we had enough quality in both 18 yard boxes to make the difference in the areas where it really counts. I thought we set up with the right shape, with the right personnel and that our game plan was to squeeze the space around our D defensively, trying to force them wide and that we would play quickly and directly through the midfield on the counter, looking to get Suarez and Sturridge on the ball as early as possible and take advantage of the fact they may have overloaded in the final third.

For the first 20 minutes, we executed the plan pretty well I thought. We dropped off and then hassled them relentlessly 30/40 yards from goal, as Suarez and Sturridge peeled wide to provide outlets which we found every so often and Henderson in particular was quick to go and offer supporting depth from deep. His early chance was only a half hance due to the challenge, but I thought he was a little hesitant to drive into the massive space infront of him initially and this allowed the Arsenal defenders to get a little closer to him and affect him. He almost took time to think, when it should have been a natural instinct to drive into that gaping hole as soon as he received the ball – his hesitation gave him half a chance, when without it, it would have been a clear one.

Then of course the goal came from Arsenal first real chance of the game. Cissosko again hesitated between playing ball or man and then couldn’t make the ground up on Sagna as he whipped a cross into the box. It is a little difficult to tell exactly where Carzola came from watching the replay but I’m pretty certain he passed a strolling Steven Gerrard and then reacted quicker than a sluggish Lucas after his initial free header rebounded off the post. That was my take on it, but due to the huge amount of space Carzola had found I’ve had to re-watch several videos to determine exactly who failed where, and that in itself is not a good sign. I am very disappointed with this goal more so than any other we have conceded this season. How you let a player of Santi’s quality waltz passed you without even thinking ‘I should track him’ or not at least attempting to; very poor indeed.

As they say, goals change games, and it changed this one alright. From then on in the first half we looked on the ropes and didn’t seem to be able to stay with the Arsenal midfielders as they started to knock it around with more authority and at a pace that suited them. I’m not one for slagging off players, especially two of my favourites ever, but Lucas and in particular Gerrard looked out paced, out run, out thought and out fought in the middle - utterly immobile. Yes, Arsenal are a good side with a fluid, technically gifted midfield, but that is all the more reason to concentrate, work, track, harass and hurry when they get into your half. They simply didn’t do this and as a result Jordan Henderson was left chasing shadows as the Arsenal midfield began to run riot.

A change at half time half made sense and half didn’t. Cissokho had indeed been that poor that a substitution was required and we needed the spark Coutinho provides to try and get ourselves back into the game. However the change in shape was bemusing. Having struggled even with the midfield overload of the 3412 we became even more stretched taking a man out and playing a 442, and it was doomed to fail. People post match have been exclaiming ‘it’s time to play four at the back’ but I honestly think that Gerrard and Lucas need 3 in behind them and a man in front in most games, particularly one like this. The only time we had any control was whilst playing 3412, and we looked most out of it playing 442. Personally, I’d have kept the shape, bought Agger on for Cissokho, Coutinho for Flanno (though he did well despite people’s delirium when the team sheet came out) shifting Henderson to RWB and straight swap Stevie for Allen. Not necessarily all at once, but they were the subs I was asking for at the time. Going 442 absolutely killed any chance we had in the game and badly performing players stayed on the park.

Of course, the second goal could also be accountable for our crumble as it killed spirits, but players of the experience and quality of Gerrard, Toure, and Lucas shouldn’t allow themselves to lose enthusiasm and make fundamental errors. Talking of fundamental errors, what was Kolo doing for a 5/10 minutes period when they scored? First the sloppy pass inside, then the horrific touch under pressure, and as for turning your back on a shot? C’mon, that’s not what this guy is about, surely? Aaron Ramsey drifted through a big midfield gap between Lucas and Henderson without being noticed, took a touch to steady himself and hit a cracking effort into the top corner as Sakho rightly threw himself at the ball and Toure, wrongly, turned his back and winced. Good goal, but another avoidable long distance effort where we have failed to first track the man then shut him down effectively; fundamentals.

We could pick this apart all day, but we weren’t horrific or embarrassed. We did enough to save face but we could and should have done more to get a result. A loss here by no means dashes our hopes of top four or anything like that but we need to have a think about our big game decisions and who plays, no matter who they are, and do what is best for the set up and the team. Saturday we were hindered by individual defensive errors, poor energy and application in midfield, and Suarez and Sturridge scoring all those goals last week rather than averaging them out. Heyho.

Oh, and we’ll fucking smash Fulham.
« Last Edit: November 3, 2013, 11:52:32 pm by -Daws- »
It's hard enough remembering my opinions without remembering my reasons for them.

Offline Garstonite

  • Scouse Wash House
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,352
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #68 on: November 3, 2013, 11:49:18 pm »
Closest thing avilable to him. The Carvalho equivelant would be Jerome Boateng, from the reigning European Champions. I mean in terms of defending. Carvalho always looked a bit mental when defending. He did what David Luiz does so well at times, only he did it every game. Sakho is on the front foot and he cuts off danger before it's an issue. He was out of position for the opener, but there were a number of times in the game where Sakho snuffed out the attack before any Arsenal player got into a position of danger

Maybe I'm a bit crazy, but I absolutely love David Luiz. I think he's the best centre-half in the league along with Kompany. I see Sakho sharing more in common with the latter. Which is obviously no bad thing. I just think he's very limited on the ball, which is prohibiting in the modern game. You can't compare him with Carvalho or Luiz because their technique defines them. They may share certain attributes in terms of their proactive philosophies on defending, but their technique is what set them apart. It meant/means they could nip in front of a striker and take the ball and then do something worthwhile with it. Technique certainly doesn't define Sakho. At least not from what I've seen.

Offline Anthony

  • Snot a Sailing Specialist. Has not signed for Manchester United. Misses Santa's knee!!!!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,323
  • We don't need anyone to tell us this is golden...
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #69 on: November 3, 2013, 11:49:55 pm »
If the ref plays the quick free kick advantage, he can issue the card at the next stoppage.

I specifically asked about this in the "You are the Ref" thread

No. You can't go back to an incident once the game has restarted. He wasn't playing advantage as advantage wasn't possible. He'd given a free kick, the play was stopped and he needed to show a yellow. If the ball was still in play and advantage was available then yeh you play on and go back to Sagna once the ball was out of play to show him a caution but there was no advantage to be gained from the situation at all.
"We will win the European Cup one day. Aim for the moon and end up among the stars" - Gérard Houllier 2001

Thankyou Rafa and Jürgen  for taking us to Heaven!

"Hicks could have purchased Dallas' MLS franchise but decided not to. 'In hindsight, I probably made the wrong decision' he said" - Sports Illustrated/AP 2007

Online Mr Dilkington

  • would rather be too cold than too hot
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,590
  • Never buy the Sun
    • www.level3football.com
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #70 on: November 3, 2013, 11:53:32 pm »
Maybe I'm a bit crazy, but I absolutely love David Luiz. I think he's the best centre-half in the league along with Kompany. I see Sakho sharing more in common with the latter. Which is obviously no bad thing. I just think he's very limited on the ball, which is prohibiting in the modern game. You can't compare him with Carvalho or Luiz because their technique defines them. They may share certain attributes in terms of their proactive philosophies on defending, but their technique is what set them apart. It meant/means they could nip in front of a striker and take the ball and then do something worthwhile with it. Technique certainly doesn't define Sakho. At least not from what I've seen.
[controversial mode] Sakho is a better passer of the ball than Daniel Agger.[/controversial mode]
You change all the lead, sleeping in my head, as the day grows dim, I hear you sing a golden hymn.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,289
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #71 on: November 3, 2013, 11:54:00 pm »
I specifically asked about this in the "You are the Ref" thread

I stand corrected :)
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Garstonite

  • Scouse Wash House
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,352
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #72 on: November 3, 2013, 11:56:51 pm »
[controversial mode] Sakho is a better passer of the ball than Daniel Agger.[/controversial mode]

Even if that were true, he can't carry a ball as well as Agger and he can't control a ball as quickly as Agger. Which are both more important traits.

Offline Mr_Morosoph

  • Moaning bed wetter, cry wanks for Torres
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,479
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #73 on: November 3, 2013, 11:59:04 pm »
[controversial mode] Sakho is a better passer of the ball than Daniel Agger.[/controversial mode]

I wouldn't go that far but Sakho's passing has been very good so far. He's a far more complete defender than I thought he was before he signed.
"I was pleased also with Peter Crouch. We have been talking to him, before and after his nose operation, to show more confidence with his heading.
 
"Now it seems to have worked. Lets say that if he has a few games without scoring again, maybe we should arrange to break his nose again."

Rafa.

Online Mr Dilkington

  • would rather be too cold than too hot
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,590
  • Never buy the Sun
    • www.level3football.com
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #74 on: November 4, 2013, 12:01:09 am »
Even if that were true, he can't carry a ball as well as Agger and he can't control a ball as quickly as Agger. Which are both more important traits.
That's the thing though, I think Agger stopped carrying the ball out from the back a long time ago.

Personally I'd play both of them.
You change all the lead, sleeping in my head, as the day grows dim, I hear you sing a golden hymn.

Offline didi shamone

  • Too old for fighting
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,228
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #75 on: November 4, 2013, 12:16:51 am »
Interesting to see two of the best posters here having such a chasm  between their views on Sakho. Personally I like what I see so far. Think he was trying to play center half and left back yesterday though.

Offline Fiasco

  • Just add water to foam at the mouth. Can't spell San Francisco. Has promised to eat his own cock. Cannibal Self-Harm in that case.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,244
  • JFT96.
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #76 on: November 4, 2013, 12:25:06 am »
That's the thing though, I think Agger stopped carrying the ball out from the back a long time ago.

Personally I'd play both of them.

I think that'll happen eventually. No worries about them both being left-footed, it means nothing. Toure is okay on the ball and Skrtel is too, but those two would give us a lot more composure on the ball and into the midfield.

Offline Prof

  • fessor Yaffle. Full tosser.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,019
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • The Alternative Premier League Table
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #77 on: November 4, 2013, 12:30:28 am »
Closest thing avilable to him. The Carvalho equivelant would be Jerome Boateng, from the reigning European Champions. I mean in terms of defending. Carvalho always looked a bit mental when defending. He did what David Luiz does so well at times, only he did it every game. Sakho is on the front foot and he cuts off danger before it's an issue. He was out of position for the opener, but there were a number of times in the game where Sakho snuffed out the attack before any Arsenal player got into a position of danger
I'm not sure he was out of position.  He stepped out to slow the ball carrier (arteta) down, which was the right thing to do, then made the appropriate recovery run.  The only defender not in the right place was Flanaghan, who should/could have been covering Cazorla's run off their left.  In fairness to Flanaghan, it was a fast counter attack, and the most significant error was Cissokho getting done by Sagna.

Offline Prof

  • fessor Yaffle. Full tosser.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,019
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • The Alternative Premier League Table
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #78 on: November 4, 2013, 12:34:45 am »
Think he was trying to play center half and left back yesterday though.
Is right.  Cissokho was awful.

Offline jckliew

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,251
Re: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC
« Reply #79 on: November 4, 2013, 12:35:32 am »
 


Two men up-front:

As controversial as it would be, I think we need to consider the option of playing a lone forward away at the big teams.  Particularly at Chelsea and Man City (and Arsenal in the future) as they load their midfields with quality.

Starting with one striker still leaves the option to bring the second on, but there's no way Rodgers would have taken one off at 1-0 down, although this would have been our best chance to get back into the game.



Was thinking about this as well.

Whats the point of two strikers with NO quality service because of wrong/lack of wing backs?
And over run in midfield because of lack of bodies?

After reading some here, question comes to mind with NO answer.

Are our players lacking OR

are they just playing to instructions of the boss due to the formation?

However, what ever that be, one thing is glaring- our midfield is clearly void of goal getters/threat.  They aren't even a goal threat. Fact
My 12yr old son asked me: Is Blackburn a Racist name?