Author Topic: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC  (Read 22157 times)

Offline Hinesy

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Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« on: September 16, 2013, 11:30:21 pm »
Top of the league but could've been by 2 more pts.

Questions:
Did Brendan make too many changes for a trip to a fast passing team?
Will Moses deliver us to the promised land?
How did that defence look?
Why did Routledge get the better of us on the left so often?
Was this the first time we could've used Luis' guile?
Yep.

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2013, 12:18:28 am »
Ive almost certainly expressed all of these views in various places already tonight but it might be worth trying to stitch them together in some way, so here goes.

Ill take question 3 first. Get all post modern up in this joint.

The defence, it looked like 4 strangers who had been drafted in for a sunday league side and told to pretend they were someone else to avoid the registration issues.

Wisdom isnt a RB. And he's very young, so Im tempted to give him a free pass.

Sakho was playing his first game since May(?) for a new club, following a big money move and very little time with his teammates. It showed at times.

But you can tell the sort of defender he's going to grow in to. He defends off the front foot, he wants to challenge the opposition. He wants to challenge them quickly, before they get set and he ideally wants to leave his mark on them. All of these things I like. Trouble with that brand of defending is that you need to be practiced at it, you need to be sharp and you need to get it right. That will all come as time goes on hopefully. With Agger sweeping up behind him it could be a very decent partnership.

Enrique was Enrique. He always is.

Skrtel though was where I had my main issue with the defensive performance. This wont be the popular view, but hey I've never been popular so screw you guys and your parties.

Rodgers has come out and said he wanted our defensive line to drop off in the second half apparently, some story about Swansea having a couple of wingers or something. So this perhaps best directed towards him rather than Skrtel but what the hell... Why the fuck did we drop so fucking deep?! Now, Ive mentioned how Sakho wants to be on the front foot, he wants to get out and get at the opposition. And he wanted to do it in the second half. There was a point where he was stepping up trying to narrow the gap between Gerrard/Lucas and himself, got about 5 yards ahead of Skrtel, who then instead of going with him and moving everyone up the pitch shouted after Sakho to get back to his position and dissolve back upon himself. Mamadou duly accepted. He had to. Wisdom and Enrique werent going with him either, not without Skrtel following his lead.

Whether Skrtel was simply following Rodgers' orders or whether he was acting of his own accord is a bone of contention. But its safe to assume by now that Skrtel is a defender who likes to be sat deep. He likes to have a limited amount of space behind him for attackers to exploit his slight lack of pace. He likes to know his goalkeeper is close by for when he makes those mistakes he's prone to. It's a safety net for him.

I called him a cowardly defender in his thread for those very reasons. Not in the sense that he's scared to put his head in where it hurts, but because he's scared of getting caught out. He doesnt want to press up because he's terrified someone will run past him. He doesn't want to step forward out and challenge for fear that if the attacker circumvents it then his keeper cant immediately throw himself on the ball. He's happy having the ball come his way in the box because he knows all he has to do is deal with the immediate threat. All he has to do is get it the fuck out of there. And if he doesn't, then someone's on hand to help straight away, cos the entire defence is right there with him.

Rodgers too deserves some flack though, because he endorsed it. Swansea are decent on the break but not so much so that they warrant such huge concessions.

Glen back, Sakho with Agger and Cissoko could well be the best back line we never see.

Moses then? He looked exactly how we thought he would didnt he? Strong, quick, direct, eye for goal. It was all there, and it was nice to see. He did everything I would have expected of him in the role until he ran out of juice. Should have has an assist for the chance where Sturridge headed right at Vorm as well following some good determined play and a fine cross to pick him out. More of the same please.

Lastly, we definitely missed Luis tonight. We missed his energy and his tenaciousness more than his guile though, for me. Sturridge looked gassed, Coutinho looked...well I dont know what he looked like cos I never really saw him do anything. And our team in general just seemed to be missing someone putting some pressure on the Swansea back line. In whatever fashion. Be it through running at them with the ball, harrying them without it, or generally just acting like a dick and getting in their grill. Suarez would have taken the focus off Pip and Sturridge in a big way tonight. They both need that distraction being created for them right now. For different reasons.

Sturridge just looks very much like he's playing through an injury. And Coutinho is experiencing the scenario that many predicted he would, mostly that he's a marked man now. People know he's good, and they know the only way to stop him is to kick him, hard and quick. It's harder to focus on doing that when youve got a spitting, snarling, biting, nipping probably Chinese burn inducing Uruguayan keeping you occupied. So yeah, we missed Luis. But we wont be for much longer.

This has been a generally downbeat summery, but it was a generally downbeat performance.

Regardless of that, its good to be the Champions elect.

EDIT - forgot to mention that Skrtel's tackle in the 1st half was just about the finest piece of defending we're likely to see this season. Astonishingly good.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 01:08:36 am by Cpt_Reina »

Offline Aristotle

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2013, 12:54:13 am »
Top of the league but could've been by 2 more pts.

Honestly speaking I couldn't be happier. At the start of the season if you asked me if I'd take 10 points from our opening 4 I would've settled for 8 and been thrilled. There's tenacity andresilience in this team. We've played badly, no doubt about it, for the past 15-30 minutes of every game of the season. We're through in the cup and we're top of the league. In terms of results we've taken 2 more points from Stoke this season than we did in both respective fixtures last season. 3 more than both Manchester United games. Swansea are Rodgers' hoodoo team (ignoring the anamoly of that 5-0 game which was equally about their cup run as our dominance). 3 clean sheets, 3 wins and a point from a performance that I thought was arguably worse than the game we lost to Southampton back in ... March?

Did Brendan make too many changes for a trip to a fast passing team?

Not really. What else could he have done? It was a counter attacking side that sat deep. That side got us to a 2-1 lead. Bar a horribly uncharacteristic run from Shelvey I'd say it was no different from our other games of the season. The subs were questionable. But if Coutinho stays on and Henderson doesn't get injured/tired (looked to be grasping his ribs a whole lot) then those last 30 minutes of dropping into our own box and collectively clenching our buttholes everytime the ball comes into the box don't happen. Roll of the dice more than anything Rodgers did with the line up.

Will Moses deliver us to the promised land?

Promise land? No not really. Directness when we're hellbent on passing before taking the shot, definitely.

How did that defence look?

Considering it was Skrtel's first consecutive start since the 3-0 against QPR & Sakho's debut, against Bony and Michu. I think it was everything we could've hoped for. Sakho looks very promising. He's flying into tackles, he's making fancy heelpasses on his debut and after the opener he looked more determined to just get in their faces. Think he and Toure will get a run of games together come December when managing Agger's fitness will be key, with the stress of and sheer frequency of games.

Why did Routledge get the better of us on the left so often?

Wisdom and Henderson inexperienced together, lack of our threat on the same flank forcing him back and a bigger fear of their central players; De Guzman and Shelvey outside the box and Bony and Michu inside the box. Multiple reasons, I'd file it under calculated risk

Was this the first time we could've used Luis' guile?

No. We could've used it in all the other games too. Anyone who says differently wants it more than he means it. Just like all those years where we won games without Gerrard. We play better without him. There's more team chemistry. There's more balance. And all that shite. We have top class players to use them. Otherwise we would get rid of them. If there isn't room for them at the moment, you make room for them or you cite them as the reason why players of "less quality" have upped their game in an attempt to keep them out.

Forlan's time with the national team is over. It's between Suarez and Cavani to be the player in the run for a World Cup competition against their rivals of nearly a century. He'll go apeshit. I don't care for what reasons, I just care that he will.


I'd also like to add one last question of my own.

What do we make of our squad depth? So far 21 players have participated in 5 games, of which we've won 4 and drawn 1. Are in a better place in that department than we have been in for years now or is it just subjective and subject to change if we hit a bump in the road?
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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2013, 04:19:29 am »
Did Brendan make too many changes for a trip to a fast passing team?

How many were there, three?

Wisdom was obviously going to happen and was the right call if we take hindsight out of the equation. He's played right back plenty in this team. He's decent there usually. Johnson was injured, Kelly is being nursed back slowly. Kelly's our best bet at cover for right back. He hasn't got the quick feet of Johnson, but he times his runs and he can cross a ball better than even Johnson does. He's only played 45 minutes there for the ressies though. Inglethorpe basically said the only reason they had Kelly playing centerback at the U21s were 'cos they weren't sure how his body would hold up to playing at rightback. He did a half there, so maybe he'll be back soon. Doesn't seem like he was an option tonight though so Wisdom was the obvious choice. Right call, bad game.

Agger was out injured too. Move Skrtel from right sided centerback and play Toure with him? They've never played together, so it's not like they would have had the benefit of familiarity. Sakho's left-sided so that was a decent call. Personally I'd have liked to have seen Skrtel dropped. I don't rate him and I thought it was a typically Skrtel game. Capable of looking good in isolation as choas ensues around him. No presence. No authority. But he had a great game - albeit a limited one - against the Mancs and was Rodgers really going to say players earn their place and then drop Skrtel after that?

Moses or Aspas? It's Moses. Aspas has no presence. We've been lacking a bit physically and in terms of pace in the 2nd half of games. Aspas isn't exactly playing well. Moses was the right call there, especially away from home, even though it didn't actually benefit us in the second half.


I can't say I looked at the team sheet before the match and felt any of the changes didn't deserve to be in there. I didn't like seeing a player keep his place, but hard to argue that he deserved to if it was done based on their last performance.

Quote
Will Moses deliver us to the promised land?

He's taken you to the copperopolis, what more do you want?

Quote
How did that defence look?

Shite.

Wisdom had a poor game. I'm not a fan of either Enrique or Skrtel and nothing today changed my mind, although Skrtel's block was great. I'm already counting down the days to the return of a leftback that's played about 15 minutes for the club and his parent club think was worth shunting out on loan.

Sakho? People loathe the clichés about players adapting to the pace and the power of the Premiership, but they came into existence for a reason - there is an underlying truth in a lot of them. Sakho today was the archetypal "caught out by the tempo" footballer. In isolation you could see his qualities - he's a magnet for the ball in the air (His clearance numbers were ridiculous IIRC). He's comfortable under pressure, both defending and in possession. He wasn't shitting himself when he had the ball on the edge of his own both, he tried to find a red shirt. He also tried to step out and win the ball. He was proactive about winning the ball. ... But on the other hand, because he was caught out by the tempo he looked utterly clueless and foolish doing so at the time. On the first goal and a couple of times when he dived in. To me though he just came across as a potentially powerful defender, sure of his game, who was dropped in there and thinking "what the fuck is this and why are they playing so fast?" - it happens. It certainly happened to Vidic early on for the Mancs. Then he clocked it and proceeded to dominate.


Quote
Why did Routledge get the better of us on the left so often?

Right, I know we look at Liverpool on here, but honestly - it's 'cos he's quite good.

What would we expect if we went up against a team with a young fullback who isn't necessarily playing in his strongest position? We'd expect our wide man to absolutely destroy him. Remember Assaidi playing against Dawson for West Brom in the league cup? Same deal. Routledge is a tidy player under Laudrup. I know most people think the best winger at Swansea is Hernandez, but most Swansea fans I've stomached talking to about football much prefer Routledge and Dyer to him. He's not a bad player. We're fortunate because none of them are much of a goal threat worth speaking of, but actually beating their marker? They're good at that.

I actually think Swansea's wide players having the better of our fullbacks has been a theme since they came up though. Dyer in two or three games has run Enrique rather ragged, but less so tonight.

Quote
Was this the first time we could've used Luis' guile?

Not for me. At least no more so than all the other games. Did we miss his guile the previous 4 games, all of which we won 1-0? We scored twice tonight but didn't keep them out at the other end. It would have been nice to look more of a threat second half, and I'm sure if Rodgers had his subs to make again Alberto would have been on before Aspas (at least I hope so!). But really, we scored twice. We miss Suarez because Suarez is bloody incredible. But nah. Tonight we just weren't particularly tight at the back. A theme last season was that if we didn't keep a clean sheet then the opposition would usually score at least twice. Same again tonight. It's probably too early to say that's just a theme from last season continuing, given the massive changes in personnel since... But still...
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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2013, 05:28:17 am »
How did that defence look?

Just on this point, Iīve seen a lot of criticism being thrown around tonight but for me they key things to note are this:-

We were missing our 2 first choice central defenders.
We were missing our first and second choice right backs.
We were also missing our backup left back (who many consider a better option than Enrique).

Sakho hasnīt played any competitive football since May.
Andre Wisdom very much looks like a CB playing at RB and is just 20. He hasnīt really featured for us in the Premier League since January.
Skrtel, like Wisdom, hasnīt really featured much for us since January.
Mignolet was starting just his 4th League game for us.

So I was expecting the defence to look a bit all over the place at times. None of them have had any competitive football for a while bar Enrique. I think Skrtel's problems are bigger than this though. He's maybe too old to learn differently now but he certainly looks like someone who prefers to defend his box instead of defending half the pitch. Iīm sure when Toure, Agger and Sakho are all fit we probably won't see much of him except perhaps in games where a backs to the wall type mentality may be expected.

Wisdom is still learning his trade and would be out on loan right now doing just that had things gone differently in August. Concessions have to be made. Sakho is going to be a massive presence for us. Exceptionally confident, powerful and attacks the ball. You put someone to cover in behind him and you have the blue print for the Vidic\Ferdinand partnership that won more than a few league titles right there.

Sturridge shouldnīt have come out second half. He was carrying an injury and really showing it.

In isolation it can be looked at as 2 points dropped, lead thrown away, etc etc. We are top of the league though and in a much stronger position than we would have predicted at the beginning of August. I can also understand why the performance was poor today. It's when you don't have genuine reasons to play poorly that you need to worry.
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Offline Garstonite

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2013, 06:43:28 am »
Top of the league but could've been by 2 more pts.

Could have been one less and stuck where we were before the game just as easily to be fair. I think our second half performances and our midfield in general are causes for concern. I'd like to see Allen given more game time personally. I think Gerrard and Lucas need a little bit of help against certain teams and in certain points in games. We should be grateful that all of our transfer targets have great technical qualities these days, but I still would have loved a Mo Diame marauding type.

I think you've got to give Swansea a lot of credit. Some of their football was superb and I would have enjoyed it had it been against anyone but us. The link-up between Michu and Bony that ended in a pretty tame effort had Sakho and Skrtel in bits and their equaliser was marvellous. On first viewing you're wondering where Sakho has gone but it's just good centre-forward play from Bony dragging him out and, dare I say it, a great piece of intelligence from Shelvey to recognise where the space had been opened up.

You look at Shelvey at times and you think he's definitely got the raw ingredients, but the two errors for our goals are examples of the mindfucks that I think will blight his career. He might get away with it at Swansea, but he wouldn't here. That's not to say he can't be a good player for them. I think it's almost certain he will. I think his biggest problem is that he overthinks things too often. He's looking for the highlight reel every time he has the ball at his feet. He'd do well to learn from the little lad Britton alongside him. He's some talent. It's a shame he only made it to the top flight this late in his career. Proper midfielder.

2-2 is probably a fair result. A game of two halves. I think it's safe to say we need to resolve one or two midfield issues before we really kick on.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 06:53:26 am by Garstonite »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2013, 07:44:08 am »
Top of the league but could've been by 2 more pts.

Questions:
Did Brendan make too many changes for a trip to a fast passing team?

I don't think so. I think he made as few changes as he could get away with, given Toure returning from injury, Agger apparently injured, and Johnson's injury too. Moses was the more "gratuitous" change, but that ended up being justified with the goal.

Quote
Will Moses deliver us to the promised land?

Not sure he'll "deliver", but with that kind of pace, he can at least do some reconnaissance missions!

Quote
How did that defence look?

"Disjointed" I think will be the most common description of it. Sakho was playing one way, Skrtel was playing another, Wisdom was being his usual naïve self, and Enrique was running to the beat of his own eyebrows. They weren't helped by an immobile midfield though. That's where the real problems were created.

Quote
Why did Routledge get the better of us on the left so often?

Because Wisdom is not a top quality defender (yet), and makes too many basic mistakes that his athleticism usually allows him to make up for. Unfortunately, Routledge is also athletic, but also very good on the ball. Henderson helped out, but Gerrard's lack of positioning and, quite frankly, defensive effort at times, meant that Henderson had to cover two areas of the field, plus play in his own spot. So Routledge had the run of that wing for large parts of the game. I daresay that if Ilori had played, that situation might have been more in our favour, having, as he does, an abundance of pace. But 'twas not to be.

Quote
Was this the first time we could've used Luis' guile?

We could have used it in the United game too. Not his guile, but his willingness to run at players. Moses gave us that too. He and Moses would have kept Swansea honest at the back - but as it was, with Sturridge dropping deep for the ball and not being at 100%, their two central defenders didn't have a lot to worry about.

The Game -

The game itself was a tale of 4 mistakes. The two Shelvey mistakes for our goals are well known, of course. They showed exactly why Shelvey won't be a top four player - his concentration goes AWOL at times, and he tries things that are not even remotely on (like the attempt to play a spinning, swerving driven ball low and hard to Dyer that he had no right to play, leading to Moses' goal). That's not a slight on the lad overall, because he did score a good (although fortunate) goal, and played a great header for the assist for Michu. But that inconsistency in his game won't change for a long time, if ever. However, his goal was very interesting because it demonstrated some clear breakdowns in our defensive units that were utterly avoidable.

Why goals are scored (and how Liverpool could have done better) -

There are 6 reasons why goals are scored. They encompass almost all possibilities, and the first three reasons are related to the run of play and defensive structure:

  • No pressure on the ball
  • No cover behind the ball
  • Failure to track runs from midfield
  • Restarts
  • Unforced errors
  • Own Goals/Deflections

The first goal showed up the first two points, and point five as well. Let's start with the miskick that Shelvey makes in the initial shot from Henderson's poor headed clearance:



If you look at it in real time, Gerrard turns his back on the ball anticipating the volley. Shelvey mishits it, but collects the rebound. Gerrard doesn't react to the missed kick, and instead lets Shelvey dribble past him -



Sakho anticipates this, and steps to the ball as he should. But the initial pressure that should have happened - from Gerrard after the miskick - was absent, and it creates a domino effect of bad defending options that create the goal.

As Sakho is stepping up to pressure Shelvey, Skrtel doesn't follow, and leaves a gap behind Sakho that allows Shelvey to dribble forward (although Sakho made the schoolboy error of lunging too soon):



Note too that Gerrard and Lucas are still pretty close together, and neither have really engaged in an active recovery run. Enique, too is redundant out wide, with no player to mark and by not coming in more central to defend:



Because Shelvey got away from Sakho so fast, Skrtel only has one place to go, and that's to get on the path of the ball and prevent the shot, which he does quite well. However, upon getting there, he commits a schoolboy error of his own:



He goes to ground far too early, and Shelvey is able to turn him and now faces the goal, with Mignolet coming off his line to cut the angle. However, Sakho is getting into a good recovery position, so it's debatable whether Mignolet should have stepped out, or stayed put on the line. It could go either way depending on the coach/keeper. However, what could have happened - and it's something every player learns at youth level at some point - is that Wisdom could have continued to track back and got on the line as soon as Mignolet stepped to the ball. Gary Neville was quite good at doing that for United, and it's such a basic thing that you wonder why players forget to do it. It might not have prevented the goal, but it could have given Shelvey pause for thought for a second, which would have allowed Sakho to make a tackle and clear the ball out for a corner:



This is a minor issue, though. The key points are that because our central midfielders neglected to pressure Shelvey in the first place, a domino effect of bad defensive choices occurs, including a lack of cover, and a lack of patience in defending at the ball.

And so to the second goal, which showed the 3rd reason for goals being scored - failure to track runs - with great clarity. We start with Shelvey on the ball, and eight Liverpool players between him and the goal:



Again, no pressure on the ball means that Shelvey can pick his pass to the checking Bony, who is tracked by Sakho:



When Sakho pushes up to get tight on Bony, though, he creates space in behind him. Meanwhile, Shelvey begins his run forward:



Britton receives the ball from Bony and plays a great chip into the space vacated by Sakho, into which Shelvey is running. At this point, too, Michu is about to begin his support run:



He times this run perfectly, but it is helped by the fact that Wisdom – although tracking the run – is following him on the outside, where he is redundant as a defender. In this instance, he breaks the first rules of marking – mark goalside and ballside. He does neither, and Michu has an unimpeded run onto Shelvey’s header, giving him enough time and space to place his shot in the bottom corner. As the goal is scored, though, we see very clearly again why the goal was scored – as the ball hits the back of the net, all four of Liverpool’s midfielders are very much behind the play, in a line, and are not affecting the opposition attack in any way, shape or form. Their failure to pressure the ball in the first place, and then to track Shelvey’s run in the second place, is the real reason why the goal was scored:



It could be argued that when Sakho gets tight on Bony’s checking run, the rest of the back four should have pushed up with him, and may have created an offside situation that halted Michu’s run, and might have given Mignolet time to get out and collect the ball after Shelvey’s header. But the main culprits are the central midfield, who once again exposed their defence by failing to do the basic things that prevent goals in the first place. Liverpool’s two goals showed how unforced errors play a big part in the concession of goals – Shelvey was at fault in both instances. But his own goal, and his part in Michu’s, also show that when one team fails to do the basics, they open themselves up to all sorts of problems, and although the result itself is quite good (and I was surprised - and clearly incorrect in my assumption that Laudrup wouldn’t have them go for it with Valencia coming up – at how much Swansea fought for much of the game), it could have been a lot better for Liverpool if the midfield had done the fundamentals of defending at the right moments. If this isn’t corrected, we might still end up being a team that concedes 2 goals if it concedes 1 – and that would put any chance of a top four finish in jeopardy.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 07:46:05 am by PhaseofPlay »
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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2013, 08:14:27 am »
snip

Nicely stitched Captain.

I won't analyse much, other than to say this keeper is going to be massive for us, and that I suspect Sahko, once he settles into things, is going to be massive for us.

Last season we lose that game. Whenever the expectation kicked in, we'd suffer an embarrassing reverse. Now we'll have a frustrating draw. One point difference, but much easier on the soul.

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2013, 08:44:54 am »
Some great responses already there and PoP, as ever, thank you for the sheer amount of effort!
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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2013, 09:59:51 pm »
I noticed one or two in the post game thread saying Coutinho was poor.  To be fair most said the opposite.  For me he perfectly linked midfield and attack until chopped by Williams.  From then on we'd no link between the midfield and attack.  Therefore when the ball on a few occasions in the 2nd half went up top to the forwards, it either didn't stick or there was no option from midfield in support.  Which then brings me to the point where I think we missed out big time during the window re not signing an attacking midfielder.  This isn't a huge miss when Coutinho is on his game.  When he's either not there or having a poor game then there is not much else from midfield. 

2nd half performances now in 3 games are worrying.  We've gotten away with it so far. I don't think it'll be the same on Saturday home to Southampton as I think & hope it'll be similar to the Stoke game (obviously minus squandered chances and conceding a late pen), but we'll get punished for it sooner rather than later.

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2013, 10:05:51 pm »
...it could have been a lot better for Liverpool if the midfield had done the fundamentals of defending at the right moments. If this isn’t corrected, we might still end up being a team that concedes 2 goals if it concedes 1 – and that would put any chance of a top four finish in jeopardy.


There are a lot of things which can be said about this game but this quote sums it up for me.

Will we be able to play an attacking, high possession style in order to score more than conceding?

To me thatīs the main question as I donīt think our defending problems in midfield will go away with Gerrard playing along side Lucas. There will be better games, as there were, but overall it happened in just too many games that the energy and/or knowledge to play this sort of game isnīt Gerrards biggest strength. In addition, he likes to hit the spectular pass in all those games so far which gives away the ball just too easily and makes us starting from square again with winning back the ball stretched all over the pitch as itīs impossible to press on that quickly after a misplaced long pass. Itīs tiresome, it wears you and after 80 minutes you pay the price for that. Why not trying playing Sakho alongside Lucas? He would offering everything needed here but where to play Gerrard then?

There are a number of other factors coming into play here as well. Enrique, Henderson, Wisdom still not up for a possession game as it needs more than practising here. Talent and confidence under pressure and the ability to win some crucial duels and still keeping heads up and I agree with Rodgers here that Coutinhos injury had a bad impact here which proves that we donīt have enough quality left to make up for only ONE player missing. Worrying? Probably not as the new boys are settling in with Suarez still coming back.

Furthermore we missed Agger badly, the one player who knows exactly when to step out of the defending line and when to sit back. Beside David Luiz one of the best defenders suited for a high possession game with high confidence and lots of technique.

Yes, bringin in Sakho was too early, he played his own game, caused chaos in quite a lot of situations and probably we would have won with Agger on the pitch but on the other hand it was a good thing to have our issues exposed pretty early and still gaining a point away at Swansea. Wait a minute.... Glass half full for sure. Just a reminder.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 10:12:30 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2013, 10:19:47 pm »
Did Brendan make too many changes for a trip to a fast passing team?

I think most of the changes were forced upon him. No real options at right back, Agger apparently unavailable. Moses for Aspas was always likely, the Spaniard hasn't quite looked up to pace here yet, but he's got to get time to improve. The side that went out should have been good enough for three points. Draw is still a good result though.

Will Moses deliver us to the promised land?

He'll definitely help on the exodus.

How did that defence look?

Makeshift. Which it was. I don't think we'd ever see that particular back four if everyone was fit. Sakho and Skrtel have very little understanding. Wisdom continues to show exactly why Johnson is such a good player. No long term worries, but I think we'll see some changes for the next game. At the very least, a little more tactical coherence would be nice.

Why did Routledge get the better of us on the left so often?

He's a good player. Wisdom is a very young centre back playing out of position. The middle three weren't offering enough protection. Take your pick.

Was this the first time we could've used Luis' guile?

It's the first time it could have changed the end result. A Moses - Sturridge - Suarez front line is definitely going to worry defenders.
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Offline Vortigen

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 10:22:07 pm »
Did Brendan make too many changes for a trip to a fast passing team?

I don't have any issues with Brendan's starting 11.  Agger's last minute injury no doubt changed his initial line up, but I was in favor of playing Moses ahead of Aspas.  Wisdom too played a fair amount as a RB for us in the past, so we can't fault Rodgers for going with him, even though he ended up having a poor game. 

Will Moses deliver us to the promised land?

I don't think he will have the kind of impact Coutinho or Sturridge have had, but I also do not think he will be a failure.  I believe that offensively his contribution will be greater than Downing's last season, which is good enough for me personally.   

How did that defence look?

Shaky and understandably so.  Still, Swansea threw a lot at us towards the end of the game and our defenders handled it, so it wasn't a complete disaster.  I think they all showed a lot of character and determination.  We could have easily lost that game if the players didn't show that extra bit of effort to stick it out.
 
Why did Routledge get the better of us on the left so often?

Our left or his left?  I only noticed our right side getting exposed too frequently with Wisdom drifting towards the middle too much and leaving Davis with acres of space. 

Was this the first time we could've used Luis' guile?

Possibly.  Especially after Coutinho went off.  That is really when we stopped looking like a team that was going to score another goal.  We looked much more toothless without Coutinho than we ever did without Suarez. 


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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2013, 10:23:04 pm »
"Disjointed" I think will be the most common description of it. Sakho was playing one way, Skrtel was playing another, Wisdom was being his usual naïve self, and Enrique was running to the beat of his own eyebrows. They weren't helped by an immobile midfield though. That's where the real problems were created."

That probably summed it up for me as early as the goal when I felt we weren't in the right frame of mind for this game. We got this point because we dug deep, and this will stand in good stead.

But what up with the midfield though? Did the same things happen against Villa? Against Man Utd? Why did they surface in this game? Is it because we made a bit too many changes to the point that everyone became uncertain of their roles?

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 10:24:48 pm »
Echoes of West Ham at home levels of negativity reverberated around the internet last night after once again we went top of the league following a scrappy draw.

The fact is we maintained our unbeaten run without the league’s best player, 2 key defenders missing who were replaced by a young out-of position CB and a débutante CB, and once again having to endure an injury to our fabulous playmaker Coutinho. Surely the satisfaction of our position and the likelihood that things can only get better was sufficient for everyone to quell their concerns ahead of Southampton at home?

The truth is however, that the second half performance could not be labelled as a classic defensive holding tactic, it was more like a disjointed, incoherent desperate attempt to hold on to a point. The most promising aspect about our group of players is how comfortable they all are on the ball, so why did they treat it with contempt and gift Swansea control of it having played so well ourselves in the first half. For 45 minutes we eased ourselves across the Liberty Stadium effortlessly, as each player finding a red shirt with short, crisp passing leaving Swansea chasing shadows.

To be fair, we didn't just forget how to play football, Swansea hunted in packs with often 3 white shirts surrounding any individual in red with possession as they stayed compact.

Mignolet looks to be a fantastic signing for us, he dominated his box and pulled off his usual stops as required, but he contributed to the 2nd half debacle also. I think its something that we have to accept very early though, he will never distribute like Pepe Riena.

Sakho had a great first 30 minutes providing you’re not inclined to blame him for allowing Shelvey to drift past him for their early goal – that situation could easily have translated in to a penalty & possibly a booking had he stuck a foot out. The rest of his game was a mixture of sublime touches, reassured heading & passing and mis-timed tackles. Someone cruelly and crudely compared him to Troare which was is wrong, you can see he has class even though one or two of his tackles seems like comical launches.

Skrtel was good as well wasn’t he, he seems a bit more certain about himself and made some great tackles. He missed a large chuck of last season having been dropped so lets hope his confidence and concentration can reach a new high for us.

And what about the lethal Sturridge, his run of goals makes it forgiveable that he regularly fails to play a mate in, it happens often however you want to view it but like the balance of everything, positivity tips in his favour when he takes his own chances. His anticipation for the back pass illustrates to us wonderfully the sort of alert, hungry striker we have on our books for years to come.
He’s a fine player who doesn't attack the ball like Suarez, he simply rolls it around his feet and shifts his body to create his own space.

Individually SG, Lucas & Henderson all had reasonable games but collectively they couldn’t overcome that second half erratic theme and their passing became error-strewn. Lucas, who was up for the challenge admirably as usual, was also once again unlucky to be booked considering what we see in the PL on a regular basis, I suppose we’ll have to prepare for his inevitable short ban in the coming months.

If Moses’ stint with us continues like his effort last night he’ll also find himself religiously revered by the grateful red army. I’m certain his desire and product will add massive value to the first team, never mind squad. I expect the 11th spot to be battled out between him and Henderson with Allen, Sterling, Alberto Aspas, et al forming the rest of the queue.

I think Aspas was the wrong selection as sub though, this lad needs to find his pre-season form and undoubted ability to play good football.

Likewise Sterling didn’t give us an edge which pushed Swansea back in to their own half like he did exactly a year ago when he was our flying starlet for the first few games of the season.

We’ll be entirely different prospect when Suarez returns with a far more offensive nature.
But, BR needs to establish how he can influence those dips in performance, certainly further additions to the squad in will add options of the bench, until then we’ll need Aspas, Sterling, Allen & Alberto to step it up if called upon.

Brendan can be delighted overall, at this moment he’s at the pinnacle of his career with his Liverpool side at the pinnacle of the league with only Southampton in the way of an astonishing start of the season and with a run of games ahead of him that will hopefully permit his players to gel.




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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2013, 10:24:51 pm »
I noticed one or two in the post game thread saying Coutinho was poor.  To be fair most said the opposite.  For me he perfectly linked midfield and attack until chopped by Williams.  From then on we'd no link between the midfield and attack.  Therefore when the ball on a few occasions in the 2nd half went up top to the forwards, it either didn't stick or there was no option from midfield in support.  Which then brings me to the point where I think we missed out big time during the window re not signing an attacking midfielder.  This isn't a huge miss when Coutinho is on his game.  When he's either not there or having a poor game then there is not much else from midfield. 

I agree. Our ball retention completely evaporated when Phil went off.

On the defence I felt that we were far too deep in the second half. In addition Wisdom is clearly not a full back. Even more so in a system like Rodgers plays. The fluidity and interchangability in the front three ( or in last nights case Henderson 's instinct to tuck in) depends on the full back getting forward. Wisdom is just not comfortable enough on the ball to fulfill this role.

With regard to Moses I thought he did well but, returning to the theme of the the front three being interchangeable, I am not sure Moses moved from his wide left position enough to drag their defence out of place. to be honest he doesn't really look that type of player and his predictability might be easily catered for by some of the better drilled defences.

I'm not sure that Suarez would have made a whole lot of difference last night once Coutinho went off. We were pretty much encamped in our own half. Of course there is always the chance that he would get you a goal out of nothing but chances to impress at the business end would have been as few and far between for him as they were for the rest of our attack.

Finally on Mignolet. I have been greatly impressed by him and thought that He commanded his box very well last night in addition to the shotstopping prowess he has displayed in earlier games. However I have a concern that his propensity to parry the ball back where it came from rather than out of the danger area is a little worrying. In this regard he reminds me a little of Packie Bonner. Still he's a significant upgrade on the latter version of Reina and looks a fantastic addition.



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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2013, 10:25:33 pm »
Did Brendan make too many changes for a trip to a fast passing team?

Maybe, obviously injuries dictate somewhat and the loss of Agger hurt us to be honest.  The International break probably had an impact too.

Will Moses deliver us to the promised land?

Always looked a player, hope he heas a cracking season and demands a perm move to us.


How did that defence look?

A bit shaky to be honest, Sahko is a beast and he will adapt quickly I believe, he was a bit too keen to go and attack the ball in my opinion, may have cost us on both goals - although Stevie turning his back for the first was schoolboy.

Why did Routledge get the better of us on the left so often?

Good player is Routledge, his natural attacking ability plus our lack of cover on the left-hand side probably contributed in equal measure.

Was this the first time we could've used Luis' guile?

He would have been a great out ball in the last 15 minutes, it just would not stick with Aspas (not a knock at him); if Luis was available we would have won the game late on. 
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Offline Sir Psycho Sexy

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2013, 10:29:13 pm »
Did Brendan make too many changes for a trip to a fast passing team?
Meh, he was forced too. Kolo wasn't totally match fit, nor Agger and Sakho is a good player so it made sense to start him on the left side of defence. Same with Wisdom for Johnson. The one unforced change, Moses for Aspas, worked very well.

Quote
Will Moses deliver us to the promised land?
Well he had very good game. He contributed more than Aspas in much less game time with a goal and a brilliant cross to Sturridge that probably should of been put away. He ran Rangel ragged and was a constant threat throughout the first half. Remains to be seen if he can do this against tougher, better right backs but he's made the perfect start.

Quote
How did that defence look?
Shaky. Which is understandable. Wisdom is clearly not a right back and it was Sakho's first game in the Premier League. He was very rash. Diving in when he should stay on his feet and Shelvey shouldn't have gotten past him for the first goal. The way he was caught square and lost him shouldn't be happening but he did recover well. Skrtl was brilliant. The goal line clearance especially. All in all it was mixed but I think the main problem was our midfield.

Quote
Why did Routledge get the better of us on the left so often?
When we were defending, Wisdom had a tendency to play as almost a third centre back and Henderson was forced to cover by dropping into the right back. It gave Swansea a lot of space and I noticed that after Skrtl went down injured, Rodgers called both Henderson and Wisdom over. Maybe it was intentional, in order to deal with the physical threat of Michu and Bony but I doubt it. Wisdom could be a good player for us but I don't it will be at right back.

Quote
Was this the first time we could've used Luis' guile?
A player of Suarez's quality will always help but I don't think it would have made much difference. In the second half we could not play the ball put from the back and Swansea won everything in the midfield. I can't imagine a striker making a lot of difference in that aspect of the game. Yes, Suarez would definitely do a lot of running but Swansea were very comfortable in the second half passing it around us. The main problem was after we realised we couldn't play out from the back, we long balled it and Swansea win everything. We then seemed to resort to sitting deep and after that it was just rinse and repeat. We sat deep, couldn't play out from the back and Swansea's back line were at the half way line for most of the second half, our forwards were feeding off scraps and our lack of counter attacking game meant we really didn't know what to do.

I noticed one or two in the post game thread saying Coutinho was poor.  To be fair most said the opposite.  For me he perfectly linked midfield and attack until chopped by Williams.

Totally agree. He was by far and away our best player in the first half. He dropped deep, went out wide and played some very nice one touch football that kept things moving and as you say, linked the midfield and attack brilliantly.

Quote
From then on we'd no link between the midfield and attack.  Therefore when the ball on a few occasions in the 2nd half went up top to the forwards, it either didn't stick or there was no option from midfield in support.  Which then brings me to the point where I think we missed out big time during the window re not signing an attacking midfielder.  This isn't a huge miss when Coutinho is on his game.  When he's either not there or having a poor game then there is not much else from midfield.
Partly agree. He was definitely a miss as, Aspas is not on his level yet (and neither are any of the attacking mids we have). But Swansea were dominating the last 10-15 mins of the first half with 70% possession at one point. I don't believe that a straight sub should make too much difference and in the end, I don't think Coutinho going off was the difference. Swansea were starting to control before that happened.
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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2013, 10:34:49 pm »
Echoes of West Ham at home levels of negativity reverberated around the internet last night after once again we went top of the league following a scrappy draw.

The fact is we maintained our unbeaten run without the league’s best player, 2 key defenders missing who were replaced by a young out-of position CB and a débutante CB, and once again having to endure an injury to our fabulous playmaker Coutinho. Surely the satisfaction of our position and the likelihood that things can only get better was sufficient for everyone to quell their concerns ahead of Southampton at home?

The truth is however, that the second half performance could not be labelled as a classic defensive holding tactic, it was more like a disjointed, incoherent desperate attempt to hold on to a point. The most promising aspect about our group of players is how comfortable they all are on the ball, so why did they treat it with contempt and gift Swansea control of it having played so well ourselves in the first half. For 45 minutes we eased ourselves across the Liberty Stadium effortlessly, as each player finding a red shirt with short, crisp passing leaving Swansea chasing shadows.

To be fair, we didn't just forget how to play football, Swansea hunted in packs with often 3 white shirts surrounding any individual in red with possession as they stayed compact.

Mignolet looks to be a fantastic signing for us, he dominated his box and pulled off his usual stops as required, but he contributed to the 2nd half debacle also. I think its something that we have to accept very early though, he will never distribute like Pepe Riena.

Sakho had a great first 30 minutes providing you’re not inclined to blame him for allowing Shelvey to drift past him for their early goal – that situation could easily have translated in to a penalty & possibly a booking had he stuck a foot out. The rest of his game was a mixture of sublime touches, reassured heading & passing and mis-timed tackles. Someone cruelly and crudely compared him to Troare which was is wrong, you can see he has class even though one or two of his tackles seems like comical launches.

Skrtel was good as well wasn’t he, he seems a bit more certain about himself and made some great tackles. He missed a large chuck of last season having been dropped so lets hope his confidence and concentration can reach a new high for us.

And what about the lethal Sturridge, his run of goals makes it forgiveable that he regularly fails to play a mate in, it happens often however you want to view it but like the balance of everything, positivity tips in his favour when he takes his own chances. His anticipation for the back pass illustrates to us wonderfully the sort of alert, hungry striker we have on our books for years to come.
He’s a fine player who doesn't attack the ball like Suarez, he simply rolls it around his feet and shifts his body to create his own space.

Individually SG, Lucas & Henderson all had reasonable games but collectively they couldn’t overcome that second half erratic theme and their passing became error-strewn. Lucas, who was up for the challenge admirably as usual, was also once again unlucky to be booked considering what we see in the PL on a regular basis, I suppose we’ll have to prepare for his inevitable short ban in the coming months.

If Moses’ stint with us continues like his effort last night he’ll also find himself religiously revered by the grateful red army. I’m certain his desire and product will add massive value to the first team, never mind squad. I expect the 11th spot to be battled out between him and Henderson with Allen, Sterling, Alberto Aspas, et al forming the rest of the queue.

I think Aspas was the wrong selection as sub though, this lad needs to find his pre-season form and undoubted ability to play good football.

Likewise Sterling didn’t give us an edge which pushed Swansea back in to their own half like he did exactly a year ago when he was our flying starlet for the first few games of the season.

We’ll be entirely different prospect when Suarez returns with a far more offensive nature.
But, BR needs to establish how he can influence those dips in performance, certainly further additions to the squad in will add options of the bench, until then we’ll need Aspas, Sterling, Allen & Alberto to step it up if called upon.

Brendan can be delighted overall, at this moment he’s at the pinnacle of his career with his Liverpool side at the pinnacle of the league with only Southampton in the way of an astonishing start of the season and with a run of games ahead of him that will hopefully permit his players to gel.

Cracking post mate. Very well said.
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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2013, 10:48:44 pm »
Top of the league but could've been by 2 more pts.

Questions:
Did Brendan make too many changes for a trip to a fast passing team?
I was lucky enough to get a ticket for this game as my health won't allow me to travel up to Anfield so this is my one game of the season. I don't think he really had too many options but I did comment that Swansea was not the sort of team that you would want to play a back 4 playing together for the first time, whilst including a debut making player who has been with us a matter of days and a youngster playing out of position.
Quote
Will Moses deliver us to the promised land?
He showed glimpses of his talent and glimpses of why he was stuck on the bench at the Bridge. His run for the Sturridge chance wasn't too clever as showed by the DS run for his goal. I kept asking why we didn't look to put Moses away in similar fashion after that run and goal as the Swansea defence were obviously not keen to have him running at them. There were several times when just him & Rangel and Enrique & Dyer were out on our left while almost every other player was in a 40x30 patch on the right for our goal kicks. Quite why Mignolet didn't try to aim for Moses was baffling, especially as Swansea were winning most of the headers and second balls when he kicked it up the right side.
Quote
How did that defence look?
Any newly formed back 4 as I mentioned above would struggle against that Swansea front line with the movement of Michu, the bustle of Bony and the pace of Dyer & Routledge out wide. For some reason, Henderson left Wisdom isolated in acres of space with both Routledge and Ben Davies pushing on. At one point, Wisdom was picking up both players during a Swansea attack. Yes, Wisdom struggled going forward but he didn't really have too many options for the out ball and he made some timely tackles. Enrique coped much better with Dyer, probably helped by the fact that Rangel was hesitant to push on because of the threat of Moses (the same type of threat not posed by Henderson (not a criticism) and that allowed Ben Davies free passage up the left. Sakho grew into the game and will be a beast of a defender. The first goal was poor all round. Sakho should have gotten more on his header but to me the man mostly at fault was Henderson for heading the ball back into the dangerous central area whereas he should have headed it out wide towards the touch line and that would have given us time to reorganise. Gerrard turned his back on Shelvey and then stood and watched. Sakho was caught flat footed and was worried about fouling Shelvey so close to the box. Skertl made a good block but Shelvey was able to tuck away the rebound. Skertl had a decent all round game and that tackle to prevent Bony scoring was amazing. Nobody could explain why we dropped so deep, although I know that BR wants us to drop off a bit to prevent the counter attack. Their second goal was a perfect example of winkling out a defender. Bony dropped deep and brought Sakho with him. Shelvey made the run into that space (again while Gerrard stood & watched) and both Skertl & Wisdom were slow to react to the threat.
Quote
Why did Routledge get the better of us on the left so often?
See my point above. Moses kept Rangel honest and it is usually him (like Glen Johnson) who bombs on and provides width but with Henderson not posing the same threat, it gave Ben Davies all the time in the world to get up and support Routledge. Saying that neither winger looked really dangerous but it was incredibly frustrating to see the width that Swansea had with Shelvey just sitting in the pocket and dropping passes to either touchline.
Quote
Was this the first time we could've used Luis' guile?
I did think how nice it would have been to have him on that pitch. Sturridge isn't fit enough to make run after run into the channel so quite often we had no out ball to relieve some of the pressure and I don't think he is that sort of player any way. We brought on Aspas, who I thought did quite well with what he had, when Coutinho went off and that seemingly signalled the end of us going for the win. Aspas had a great run down the left and looked to find Sturridge only for some excellent cover from Williams to ruin the chance. Again, Aspas had a chance right at the death but another excellent tackle stopped him. Could Luis have done any better? I don't know as the tackle was that good. When Sterling came on, I don't remember him running at the Swansea defence and then we had that Henderson throw to Toure that ended up back at Mignolet's feet (everyone in the away end groaned like mad).

Before the game, I thought we would sneak a win by the odd goal. Once I saw the team and our defence was missing Agger, I would have taken the point. After 2 minutes and 0-1 down, I feared a collapse but we showed heart and passion to get it back level and then to go in front was good but we gave them too much time, too much respect and we dropped off too deep so to come away with a point was not that bad. Yes Utd beat them but the Swans were really poor that day. They always seem to raise their game against us given the long & storied relationship between the two clubs and the fact that our manager was their manager.

Top of the League after 4 games is fantastic and we still haven't really found serious form yet. Look out when we do....
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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2013, 10:49:03 pm »
Echoes of West Ham at home levels of negativity reverberated around the internet last night after once again we went top of the league following a scrappy draw.

Heh. You can't argue with that John. Good point. I think it says more about our insecurities than anything else. It's a shame.

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2013, 11:52:52 pm »
Just wanted to add that based on my 2nd viewing of the match, Aspas was actually quite good before Swansea's second goal and he was not bad at all after. He was not Coutinho, but he is not supposed to be.

Furthermore, the descriptions of how 'horrible' our 2nd half performance was are, to say the least, exaggerated. We did not retreat, we did not cede the midfield. In fact, in the last 15 minutes (80-95') we combined both 'button-down the hatches' AND hunting in packs in their half of the pitch defending.

Toure was beaten for pace (understandably) by Routledge a few times, and was manfully helped out by Skrtel. Other than possibly preventing a second yellow card for Wisdom, and as much as I like Toure, his substitution for Wisdom neither added much to us going forward nor to us in defense.

If we had proper substitutes on the bench for them, we ought to have substituted Sturridge, who tired (although he looked dangerous when he did get the ball) and Gerrard, who also tired visibly.

Criticisms of Henderson are, to me, outlandish. I haven't always been his biggest fan, but he was indefatigable, and positive throughout the game, both going forward and defending.

All in all, on 2nd viewing, our 2nd half performance was not really anything to worry about. It was not a 'disjointed effort'. For their 2nd goal, they executed perfectly, and we did not. Had they not scored from that move, we would be praising another 'cynical' or 'pragmatic' performance.

Finally, as much as I dislike Jose Enrique's over-eagerness to 'release' players on a counter when it's not on, his pass to Sturridge which Chico Flores acrobatically stopped was mint, and was likely to have resulted in a major goal-scoring chance for us.

We could have won the match had we converted one of our bona fide chances (e.g. Sturridge's header, or Gerrard's shot which Williams blocked - Vorm was beaten for that), and they could have scored more in the 2nd half. We did not 'let them' or allow them to get better in the 2nd half. They just got better, executed better. Their substitutions worked better than ours.
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2013, 04:57:12 am »
Top of the league but could've been by 2 more pts.

Questions:
Did Brendan make too many changes for a trip to a fast passing team?
Will Moses deliver us to the promised land?
How did that defence look?
Why did Routledge get the better of us on the left so often?
Was this the first time we could've used Luis' guile?


To answer the first one, I don't think we actually made too many changes especially since most of them were forced through injuries. Moses for Aspas if anything seemed to be an upgrade in that Moses brought some real pace to the side.

I don't know if Moses will take us to the promised land but he has something about him. This is the kind of player the Mancs have stockpiled in the past and I've long cried out for someone like him in our team. He's got a lot of pace and he's clearly got a bit of skill as well which gives us a potent attacking option. He doesn't seem to be the most refined player in the world but that doesn't matter too much as long as he can do what he is capable of i.e. beating men and advancing play and playing the cross/shooting with any efficiency. It's what having such pace allows players to do. Moses also seems to have the skill to go with it to make him a very effective option. I think he'll come good and establish himself as a very important squad player.

The defence looked disjointed through out the night. Sakho clearly wasn't at his best but I like his style and hopefully it'll start coming good before too long but he seems to be extremely aggressive in defence and dives into challenges early to win the ball. He looked quite rusty at the start and was mistiming quite a few and was being left in no man's land by Michu and Bony but as the game progressed, he was starting to look more effective. I also really liked his confidence on the ball especially given he was prepared to flick the ball behind his standing leg a couple of times and even more audaciously, he did the same trick with his weaker right foot which showed he was an extremely confident player on the ball. He does look like he has an incredible amount of potential which I hope Brendan can unlock.

But the defence on the whole looked out of sync with each other as you would probably expect when you have 2 back up players and one new signing lining up. Wisdom in particular had a really poor game as he usually does when he is up against someone that is skillful and quick on the wing. Mirallas absolutely roasted him at the derby last season and Routledge had a similarly superior performance over him. But on the ball was where I though Wisdom looked really really weak. He isn't usually this bad on the ball although he is quite limited in general but after about 35 minutes or so, he was hounded on the ball and that little pressure meant he simply struggled to get the ball to stick all game until he was subbed off. I really do think that long term, Wisdom may end up a centre back where his athleticism will be an advantage and his lack of composure on the ball may be somewhat overcome but at RB his limitations are way too magnified. Skrtel was his usual self and had a reasonable game but kept dragging the defence back but I guess that is to be expected when there really wasn't a great understanding between the defenders.

We could have used Luis' guile in every game we've played so far. But the real question is where do we fit him ? If everyone is fit, do we play him in place of Moses ? I have a hunch it'll actually be Jordan Henderson that gets demoted to the bench but really that brings to the fore a bigger question. And that is our lack of balance. I think Chopper touched on it eariler as well but we really lack balance in our side. Our midfield in particular simply lacks mobility. Gerrard isn't the athletic force of nature he was once and Lucas never was the athletic force of nature. But together there is a great deal of immobility in the centre and that is really hurting us at the moment. Henderson often helps with the pressing and adds a bit of dynamism when he plays in the centre but I think he has a tendency to drift towards the right in general and when lined up on the left, that meant he would drift towards the centre but the way he has lined up on the right this season, he has ended up on the wings without the ability to actually do damage there and in some ways blunting his greatest quality which is just the energy he brings to the side. Brendan has some hard thinking to do in this respect.

On the whole though, as happy as I am with the start and indeed we've shown a bit of character, we simply cannot hope to sit back and invite teams on to us every single game. I would rather take the game to the opposition and put them under the cosh. Win the ball quickly and recycle it.

Another thing I wanted to touch on was the lack of composure among our players on the ball, particularly after Coutinho went off. And this was particularly glaring with our central midfielders who were far too quick to play the pass and that really hurt us with Sturridge dropping deep, the balls were ending up with the Swansea defenders and before you knew it, they were returning with it. Watching Leon Britton only went to show that a bit more, the manner in which he was running the game and held on to the ball even under extreme pressure to play a smart pass that often opened up a great deal of space. He is such a fantastic player to watch and I reckon he'll stay at this level for a few years as well. The contrast to Lucas and Gerrard couldn't have been greater. Britton is probably half the player Gerrard is on his best day but Gerrard seemed reluctant to shield the ball and often played the quick pass when we probably needed someone to put his foot on the ball and calm things down. Hopefully Brendan can address this issue.

Still, we've played one decent half in each game so far so that gives me hope. Come on you Reds !
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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2013, 05:29:06 am »
If this isn’t corrected, we might still end up being a team that concedes 2 goals if it concedes 1 – and that would put any chance of a top four finish in jeopardy.

Thanks, that was a very iluminating analysis as usual, PhaseofPlay.

So basically what you are saying is that both goals were caused by poor movement and stasis afflicting both Lucas and Gerrard? If so, then what is the cause of this and how can it be overcome before the next game?

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2013, 06:17:11 am »
Top of the league but could've been by 2 more pts.


Was this the first time we could've used Luis' guile?

Would love it to be by two more points.

Not to be.

To think we are TOP after all these past years has left me pleased.

Had no expectation of this happening.

Point for me this is encouraging.

And give me Luistio's gile any match.

Just not his bites.

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2013, 07:40:50 am »
I'm not sure that Suarez would have made a whole lot of difference last night once Coutinho went off. We were pretty much encamped in our own half. Of course there is always the chance that he would get you a goal out of nothing but chances to impress at the business end would have been as few and far between for him as they were for the rest of our attack.

One thing I would say about Suarez is his movement is so good that sides are terrified of trying to play a high line against him. Sturridge's pace normally makes up for that but Swansea knew he was not the same threat and could push up with the injury he was carrying. I think Suarez would have pinned them back a little more or gave them far more problems to worry about on the break than Sturridge who was afraid of opening up his stride.
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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2013, 08:11:57 am »
How did that defence look?

I think Pop pretty much nailed every aspect on his post (although I slightly disagree with Skrtel diagnosis on the first goal) but I’m going to share some thoughts regardless. It was very disjointed but I think it could have been worse if you think of the players that played there, and how unfamiliar they must have been with each other.

Individually I thought Mignolet was excellent, very secured and confident, he didn't hesitate for a second in cutting any cross that came to the box. This helped the defense a lot I thought. His handling of the ball was very good too. A major improvement from his debut on this regard, it must be said.

I thought Sakho was tidy. Good passing and seemed very able, even skillful on the ball. Remember Michu calling him out after he played a cheeky backheel to Skrtel? Make him look like a right fool that, and he was furious.

Not a fan of how far he was drought out of the defense several times though. Swansea where very intelligent and decisive at exploiting the open space that he grant them, especially Jonjo and Michu. But I think those incidents could be explained in a variety of ways. Maybe he was a little too eager on his debut, and maybe he needs a little more time to adjust to his teammates and to the pace of the Premier League, as cliched as that may sound.

He ended the game very strongly to be fair, and he was a beast on the air throughout the whole game, which was refreshing to see. So overall I think it was a mildly decent if very promising debut.

Skrtel was pretty solid overall I thought. Although it was clear as day that him and Sakho were on two completely different frames of mind for most of the match, and it was self evident on both goals. I think it's beyond unfair to put Skrtel as the reason we dropped back on the second half. This has been our approach on every game of the league so far. Two games where he started and two where he didn't, and the team always dropped deeper on the second half.

On the Stoke game we were much more effective on the counter than in the rest to be sure, but we sat deep for a long period of time on the second half, inviting a lot of pressure from Stoke in the shape of crosses. Eventually committing an error of judgment on the box, which is always on the cards when you defend so deep, which could have been very costly if it wasn't for Mignolet.

Against Villa we had the same tactic, supposedly to counter Aston Villa major attacking strength, which were those quick transitions that we so hopelessly defended last season on Anfield. It was an understandable even sensible approach for that particular match, although this desicion is looking less as an isolated tactical call and more a part of a defined pattern in our game.
 
Back to the match, I thought Swansea first goal was a mix of incredible bad luck, sloppiness and slowness to react from our part. The fact that Shelvey had three opportunities to shot says it all really. The only part in which I disagree with PoP analysis is on Skrtel part on it.

It was pretty evident to me that Sakho overcommitted when he pressed to block Shelvey run, and he moved too centrally, allowing Jonjo to turn him on his outside with ease, as he was still moving forward when he changed direction. It would have been Enrique moving centrally who would have made a difference I thought. The gap that Shelvey exploited wasn’t the one between Sakho and Skrtel it was the one between the former and Jose. Skrtel positioning allowed him to cover for Sakho, and to effectively block Shelvey’s shot, who was twice lucky as the ball deflected towards to his feet for a second time.

Andre looks short of confidence at the moment. He didn’t have a good game against Nots County, and this time he was even worse. The sight of him running full pelt backwards for a good few yards after not seeing an open pass, was more than a little distressing. He was criminal on possession but his defensive game was not much better.

After some very promising performances earlier last season, it seems more evident by the game that the lad doesn’t feel entirely comfortable on this position and that he has still has a lot to improve on his defensive game if he’s to make a strong challenge here on his preferred position.

He's way off the level required at the moment, and that possible loan Rodgers was speaking on pre-season is looking more and more likely by the minute. There’s no shame on that though, he’s a kid, an incredible strong and athletic kid, with lots of potential to be sure, but he needs games to develop, preferably in a competitive level but with less pressure than what he’ll have here.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 08:38:54 am by Lastrador »

Offline No666

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2013, 08:31:15 am »
I would like to direct this to Cpt R, and also Juan L, who made some very good points in their thought-provoking posts.
I didn't see the game and haven't caught up with it in full yet, but your posts set me wondering if Rodgers' instructions to drop deep were simply pragmatism because we had to play Skrtel. I'm assuming he couldn't afford to mess the back line up further by gambling on starting Toure and him breaking down. - So start Skrtel and - in both this and the previous game - accept that he's never going to be comfortable playing the way you want so you'd best be pragmatic about it, particularly when you have a lead to defend. Which is sensible, even if it didn't come off because Sakho is still doing what he's been bought to do, long-term, and play the style Rodgers prefers.
& there again - was Sakho's error for the goal proof of why Rodgers preferred Carragher last season? Carragher would have sat equally deep but at least he'd have screamed like a demented banshee to Sakho to hold position.
In other words, should we be criticising Rodgers or doffing our caps to him for being so much more than the young idealist we mostly thought he was?

Offline goalrushatgoodison

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2013, 08:51:32 am »
One thing I would say about Suarez is his movement is so good that sides are terrified of trying to play a high line against him. Sturridge's pace normally makes up for that but Swansea knew he was not the same threat and could push up with the injury he was carrying. I think Suarez would have pinned them back a little more or gave them far more problems to worry about on the break than Sturridge who was afraid of opening up his stride.

There is some truth in what you say, however I strongly feel that it was the introduction of Sturridge in January that solved our problem of getting penned in when other teams pressed us high in our own half. It was almost immediate when he came on to make his debut against the Mancs. The long ball bypassing the pressing players became a potent weapon both in catching the opposition undermanned at the back and/or gaining a foothold in their half. Prior to this, with an ever-present Suarez we were completely ineffectual in dealing with a pressing opposition.

The problem has returned this season and I feel the point you make about a not fully fit Sturridge being afraid of opening up his stride is a much more relevant. I do accept that the prescence of Luis would have at least given them something extra to think about.
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Offline Roger Federer

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2013, 09:18:43 am »
Because Shelvey got away from Sakho so fast, Skrtel only has one place to go, and that's to get on the path of the ball and prevent the shot, which he does quite well. However, upon getting there, he commits a schoolboy error of his own:


He goes to ground far too early, and Shelvey is able to turn him and now faces the goal...
A very good and informative post on the whole but I'd like to point out one minor detail. To be fair to Skrtel, he didn't get turned by Shelvey, he actually blocked the first shot only to see the ball rebound back to Shelvey's left foot. I'm not sure that is an error at all, he was just unlucky in my view.

Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2013, 10:23:17 am »
How did that defence look?
Thought they looked shaky all game but as others have pointed out they were just put together.  We took out a lot of experience in Agger & Johnson and replaced them with Wisdom & Sakho who have about 15 Premier League games between them.  So it was always going to be tough.  Also agree with those saying that Sakho was playing one game and the rest of the defence another.  It made them all look silly at times and disjointed is a good way of describing it. 

The defences job was made all that more difficult by the midfield.  I have to be honest, this is something I have not seen for a quite a few games now but was a big problem during the first half of last season.  Players exploiting that space in between the defence and midfield.  Swansea got so much joy out of that the other night.  We simply could not plug that gap.  Lucas and Gerrard did appear tired, which is strange because I thought they worked ever so hard against Villa & United and were one of the main reasons we kept clean sheets.  I can remember Gerrard sprinting 40/50 yards back in the last 10 minutes of those game making interceptions.  But there was none of that on Monday night.  They both looked lethargic but could be a case of Swansea wearing us down.  Henderson on the other hand is a man possessed.  He really had to cover so many positions and put in a great shift.  His work rate should ideally be a staple in midfield. 

Disagree with Cpt Reina about Coutinho though.  I thought he was very good in the first half and helped us actually keep the ball, dropping deep, moving forward.  It broke down when he went off because there was no longer that 3rd man in the midfield supporting Gerrard & Lucas when needed and moving forward to support Sturridge, Moses and Henderson.  I reckon it contributed to the general level of sluggishness we saw in the last quarter of the game.

My post is probably negative but realistically this is not a bad result at all.  A point away to Swansea after internationals is a decent result.  Obviously this will be telling in the next match.  Hopefully we can push on and finish the weekend top of the table again.  It could be a case of soon we will be in October and close to the top, if not top.  Who'd thunk that?

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2013, 10:26:22 am »
We have been calling out for Gerrard/Lucas to track runners for about two seasons. Highly unlikely that it will happen anytime soon. We don't need a DM because the central triangle in the midfield is expected to play intelligently, covering when play demands so. To accommodate Gerrard, the system needs a Lucas in top form, which he has not been able to achieve yet. Even in top form I'm not sure he can adequately deal with Gerrard being out of position. Having a soft centre is just something we are going to have to deal with. We buy 2 CB's, but it is not going to help much if the 2/3 in-front don't do their job, tracking back.
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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2013, 11:08:42 am »
The defences job was made all that more difficult by the midfield.  I have to be honest, this is something I have not seen for a quite a few games now but was a big problem during the first half of last season.  Players exploiting that space in between the defence and midfield.  Swansea got so much joy out of that the other night.  We simply could not plug that gap. 
I agree with that to some extent, but even more of a problem for me was the space infront of the midfield. Lucas and Gerrard dropped quite deep throughout the game, and there was a huge gap between them and Coutinho. It became even worse after he had to go off and was replaced with an attacker in Aspas. Britton (and Shelvey when he droped back) had all the time in the world to dictate play. And he's really good at that, so it was no surprise that they dominated for much of the game.

Maybe against passing sides like Swansea, we need a more defensive midfield. Yesterday, perhaps moving Henderson inside (and Coutinho to the left) could've helped us disrupt their build-up a bit more.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2013, 11:24:14 am »
The thing which is kind of worrying to me when watching this game is also how much we seem to depend on Coutinho and Sturridge already which gives again an indication on the overall mentality of a lot of players within the first eleven.

Give the ball to Coutinho and waiting for the magic to come... is just not enough when wearing a Liverpool shirt. Enrique for example has all the physical strength to put constant pressure on the wing, to force himself into the game and keep the intensity up but for whatever reason he just canīt make it happen on a regular basis. Same with Johnson (I know he didnīt play), who has great games and stays invisible in others and it makes you wonder why? Add to that the performance of Gerrard who had his usual dip in form after an international break and you end up with just too many players not being proactive, not being on 100% which just isnīt enough when trying to win a PL game of football. Thinking about this, you know the kind of quality Kuyt brought to the team with his constant will of making it happen, you only know what youīre missing when itīs gone, I suppose.

Another problem which is about to creep into our play is the quality of our passing in the final third. We just cannot rely on the finish of Sturrdige alone, itīs not enough and I wonder why players from the quality of Coutinho and Sturrdige cannot make it happen to find some quality patterns in order to finish off counter attacks without trying to force it on their own. Itīs not rocket science, they need to raise their game here, together with Moses and Suarez, as finishing off games early is something we are missing badly here. We would have won this game easily if the understanding of our attacking player in the final third would be offering more than just one killer pass and hoping for the best whoever being at the other end.

I know it sounds crazy to call for an improvement when being top of the league but I think itīs necessary to raise the bar. This wasnīt Bayern, nor Madrid or even Tottenham, itīs been Swansea, we could have won the game and the reason why we couldnīt more or less the same as last season still. Itīs just not possible fading in and out of a game and relying too much on one or two players, in contrast, everybody has to try to make an impact on our game, thatīs the quality of top teams.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 11:37:28 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2013, 12:04:32 pm »
It was a bad day at the office wasnt it?

For me, the circumstances determined our performance and the depth of the squad was shown up. you can analyse the first 11, and 3 of them shouldnt have played, wouldnt have played if we were at full strength. 2 of the team were lacking in fitness.

Sahko - A last minute starter instead of dumb-bell avoiding Agger who had to pull out. Agger is a calm vice-captain who makes defending look easy. What we saw of Sahko was a baptism of fire, in a very fast game where the opposition took the game to us. I'm pleased Sahko had the game he did, because it wont be many times this season where we would concede so much of the ball and be under the cosh for so long. I thought he did well.

Wisdom - had to play right back and replace a world class right back who likes to maraud forward and provide width and options to the team. Johnson can dribble the ball upto the opposition penalty area and likes to take shots too. Wisdom had big boots to fill. A centre back with pace, strength and aerial ability, he's not one to dribble the ball past the half-way line. I think Brendan knew this, which is why Henderson played as a right midfielder, helping wisdom out and providing the width that Johnson would have provided. Henderson couldnt push on when coutinho went off. He was effectively playing as a wingback. We do have a better option in Kelly, but our depth in this position is worrying for the next month or so.

Moses - you'd have to say that he played in Coutinho's position or even Suarez' position when he's back in the team. Suarez suspended, Coutinho was playing in the hole. Sterling would have started here if Moses wasnt present. I think this is the main tactic that Brendan decided. We changed the team to accomodate the loss of Johnson, but inadvertently made us weaker in central midfield, strength wise. We saw that Moses was growing into the game as time went on, but severely waned in the 2nd half. You can see his fitness isnt quite where we'd want him to be, but hey, he got a goal! How can you say that was a bad debut? It wasnt, I like the potential of Moses and Sturridge playing together, you saw that Moses went wide AND through the middle too. Sturridge came deep to get involved and Moses occupied the central position. Great movement, and good intelligence.

Strurridge - blatantly not fit. He was not moving well throughout the entire match in my opinion and yet he still got a goal. This is nothing to do with form, we all know it. He's half fit and needs proper recuperation. One thing is for sure, Sturridge is a winner, he will do anything to get the result, the run he provided for Moses' goal, showed that. His qualities as a predator is there, anticipation and determination for his own goal won him the man of the match award. He's not even fit too. This is where we see that the Suarez suspension has hurt us, and we dont have the right depth to give him a rest.

Gerrard - two captains performances for England, 33 years old, still put in a great shift against Swansea, but his mind was tired, he did start to wane like Moses in the 2nd half. He put Moses and Sturridge through too. I thought the midfield 2 needed help, an out ball, Coutinho provided that, but as soon as he went off, there was no link between the lines and we played more direct balls from the back. Aspas for me, wasnt "rubbish" he was simply too lightweight, easily pushed off the ball, couldnt win the ball for love nor money. I think Aspas was put on because he was the only Senior option with experience on the bench. With Allen out injured, and Luis Alberto yet to settle, it kind of made sense why this substitution was made. You know if Allen was on the bench, Allen would have been sent on. He would have sat in front of Lucas / Gerrard and kept possession as well as keeping us compact. De Guzman had a field day when he came on, there was no pressing on him, we were so deep, we didnt have simple passing options and Sturridge was static.

A point is a point, and we really didnt deserve it. But we can correct the fitness of our players, rotate them, keep them fresh and the only way is up for me. I'm very excited by this squad. We have good options if theyre all fit.

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2013, 12:22:03 pm »
I do admire the sheer effort involved in some poster's responses, very informative and educational.

I thought the game was entertaining and a good watch, between two teams put together by modern, progressive coaches who are attempting and slowly succeeding, in altering the D.N.A of English football (yes I know Swansea's in Wales).

But some old adages still apply - like "settled back four".

And Gerrard's second half - no doubt largely the result of his Engurland heroics - was such that I wondered whether our squad is still light in key areas. A City or a Chelsea would, presumably, have an embarrassment of cover for when a team mainstay is struggling to get about the park, no?

So, did this game offer a pointer to the remainder of the season? Hmm.

I can understand Gerrard's England ambitions, but Scholes, at a younger age, and Carra (albeit for slightly different reasons) both put club business first in calling a halt on their International careers. It would almost certainly benefit LFC if Gerrard did the same. The question is begged though, that with Shelvey's departure, is there anyone to fill that role - or for that matter Lucas's - if and when needed? Because we now have a lot of back four options, but precious little in front of them.
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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2013, 12:40:15 pm »
A very good and informative post on the whole but I'd like to point out one minor detail. To be fair to Skrtel, he didn't get turned by Shelvey, he actually blocked the first shot only to see the ball rebound back to Shelvey's left foot. I'm not sure that is an error at all, he was just unlucky in my view.

The error was that he went to ground too early, when it wasn't absolutely necessary (as it was later when he blocked Bony - that was a class sliding tackle). He could have achieved the same effect by staying on his feet, and by staying on his feet, Shelvey doesn't get the second shot off as comfortably. The initial shot, on the right foot, at that angle, with Skrtel coming across, was more likely covered by Mignolet as well. Skrtel was close enough that merely extending a foot would have taken the sting out of it. But by sliding across to stop the shot, he put himself out of the game momentarily. That's what I mean by "being turned" - it wasn't a skill move by Shelvey, but Skrtel's own actions that put him out of the game for a second, allowing Shelvey to turn inside and shoot with his left on the second ball.
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Offline Billy Blaze

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2013, 12:56:53 pm »
The error was that he went to ground too early, when it wasn't absolutely necessary (as it was later when he blocked Bony - that was a class sliding tackle). He could have achieved the same effect by staying on his feet, and by staying on his feet, Shelvey doesn't get the second shot off as comfortably. The initial shot, on the right foot, at that angle, with Skrtel coming across, was more likely covered by Mignolet as well. Skrtel was close enough that merely extending a foot would have taken the sting out of it. But by sliding across to stop the shot, he put himself out of the game momentarily. That's what I mean by "being turned" - it wasn't a skill move by Shelvey, but Skrtel's own actions that put him out of the game for a second, allowing Shelvey to turn inside and shoot with his left on the second ball.

Im not so sure that Skrtl could have extended his foot to stop the shot. In fact, if you watch the goal again, Shelvey is ready to shoot and Skrtl is already running after him. Im pretty sure the only way to stop it would be a sliding tackle/block. Its more debateable if its the right thing to do or not.

Also, Sakho is definetely most at fault for the second goal. He didnt have to run out and get caught way too high up on the field. And i dont really see how they could have forced and offside in that situation. Wisdom and Skrtl should both have reacted quicker and "tuck in", but Sakho made a huge mistake by running out.

Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2013, 12:59:57 pm »
Did Brendan make too many changes for a trip to a fast passing team?

Ultimately two of the 3 changes were forced on us (Johnson and Agger) and the third was a change most people were happy with prior to the match.  Ultimately, having Moses in for Aspas proved to be the right decision.  Wisdom has played a lot of games for us so we shouldn't have had an issue with him playing.  You could argue that we should have started Toure instead of Sakho, but then we can't be protecting new signings when we have injury issues.

Will Moses deliver us to the promised land?

Looked really bright and was our most creative threat alongside Coutinho. Tired in the second half, but that is to be expected with the lack of game time.  I'd definitely start him again on Saturday.

How did that defence look?

Confused and out of shape.  But that is not an indictment of the players.  Sakho and Skrtel were not playing as a unit and that's something that can only come with time.  Skrtel has played very little first team football in 2013.  Sakho hasn't played a first team game since (I think) June.  Wisdom struggled massively on the right and the more I watch him the more he seems clearly suited to a position in the centre.  Kid needs games and I can't see him getting loads for us right now.

Maybe we should have started Toure and Skrtel, but with such a pacey attack I'd be concerned about our mobility.

Why did Routledge get the better of us on the left so often?

Wisdom was far too often pulled to the centre, leaving us exposed.  Henderson was clearly supposed to be helping him out and was also struggling to keep pace.  It looked like a lack of communication between the two of them.  This was also the first time I felt Henderson looked truly tired.  The guy seems able to run and run, but despite another strong game, he looked knackered by the end.

We need a better option on the right of defence and with Johnson out I'm a little worried about cover.  When is Kelly back?

Was this the first time we could've used Luis' guile?

You could say this about any game. Suarez gives us that something different.  Games that are likely to be very open are made for the Coutinho's and Suarez' of this world, and Swansea were carved open multiple times in the first 50 or so minutes. It would have been great to have Suarez come on when Coutinho was injured. He'd have petrified Swansea who may not have taken as many risks as they did.

This is why I like our current setup. I don't for a second think that Suarez should be starting every game.  He should be used as an option when necessary. Keep him chomping at the bit to come on. Keep it interesting. Keep the opposition guessing.

We lacked creativity in the second half, and a lot of that was down to losing Coutinho and Moses tiring.  Sturridge and Aspas are not going to create massive openings and Sterling is still looking like he's going through second season syndrome.

Overall

Overall, I'm happy with the result as Swansea away will be a tough game for any team this season. Heard people whinging about Man U putting 4 past Swansea but many of those people clearly didn't watch that game and it was a result that flattered Moyes. If anything it demonstrated how we are not great at taking our chances and we put too many eggs in one basket (Coutinho).  The defensive problems felt more like a symptom of injuries and rushed changes that anything else.

I actually think this is the kind of game that cries out for someone like Alberto. I know he's young and very raw, but so is Coutinho, so was Sterling. Alberto would have given us some great creativity and a bit of that 'headsup awareness' that a number of our players are still lacking.

The other area that got a lot of 'airtime' on Monday night was the 'second half dropoff' and how it has become a problem this season.  I'm not sure I entirely agree with this assessment as there is a difference between your team tiring and being overrun and your team compacting for tactical reasons and inviting a team onto you so you can soak up the pressure with a view to hitting them on the counter.

If we look at the 5 games we've played so far, it can be argued that we have fallen off in the second half quite heavily.  Against Stoke I actually feel this was a combination of nerves and tactics. 1-0 leads of that type are the ones we would have thrown away in previous seasons. The crowd was nervous, the players became insular and it all became very tight. But we got through it and it helped massively for confidence.

Against Notts County it was over-confidence particularly from the young players. We were 2-0 up and coasting and it felt like a number of the players didn't know how to close it out professionally.  That's something that will be fixed through experience.

Villa and Man U felt completely tactical. We were 1-0 up against teams that do not like to take the games to their opponents. I know that's a little unfair on the champions, but it is true of David Moyes.  Villa created little until late on because we compacted properly and worked as a defensive unit. While there were a few scary moments at the end, it was a very comfortable victory. Ditto Man U. Van Persie had one opening in the last few minutes and that was it. For the rest of the match he was increasingly frustrated. Now we could have opened up against Villa and Man U to try to get that second goal but it would have left us vulnerable to the counter and I reckon we could be looking at a lot less points on the board now if we had.

Swansea was the first game when it felt like we truly tired and were tactically out thought by our opponents. At 2-1 going defensive was not the correct move as Swansea have enough creativity to break teams down. They are also weak at the back. our spoiling tactics which were used to great affect against Man U and Villa actually worked against us here with us then losing Coutinho and just looking genuinely rattled.  Plus when you are trying out a new defence it's probably smarter to take some pressure off them by attacking!

So I don't think there is a pattern, yet. I'd love us to be more attacking, but the Stoke, Man U and Villa games have given me hope that the work in training is paying off defensively.  Swansea felt like a game in which we just got it wrong.

But hey... a draw is better than a defeat and we're still top of the league.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:01:41 pm by helmboy_nige »

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Re: Round table Swansea 2-2 LFC
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2013, 01:06:04 pm »
Did Brendan make too many changes for a trip to a fast passing team?

As far as I can remember the only change that he decided to make tactically was Moses coming in to replace Aspas the other changes that we made where enforced so cant really have to much to comment on with that question. Would Brendan have made those changes with a fully fit defence I think we all know he probably wouldn't.

Will Moses deliver us to the promised land

Moses is a player I've always liked to look of, I like his directness and given time to get his fitness levels up after not playing consistently for a while he will certainly improve the team and will give us another goal scoring option which we have really been lacking from last season we only had suarez, sturridge and gerrard getting into double figures, and after them the next highest I think was own goals.

How did that defence look?

Poor but when you consider from  the defence that Rodgers picked as his first choice one to start the season we have 3 of the 4 not available to start the match, and the one that was remaning is in my opinion the weak link in our defence anyway. Wisdom has the potential to be a good centre back but he certainly is very limited at right back, and would expect Kelly to come back into contention for the right back position whilst Johnson recovers soon. Sakho looked shaky but again he hasn't played much for a long time and had to be thrown in at the deep end so to speak due to aggers injury and toure not being 100%. But I think another reason why the defence didn't look to good on Monday was also down to the midfield, Swansea seemed to be able to find space between the defence and midfield very easily which to me was a bit worrying

Why did Routledge get the better of us on the left so often?

Don't think it was just down to Routledge you have to give credit to the full back Davies? Henderson was getting drawn inside towards the ball which he does quite a lot when we are defending enabling swansea to quickly switch the ball to the flank and with hnderson being more central it left the swansea full back and routledge to use 2 on 1 quite on lot on wisdom who is inexperienced and also not a right back