Author Topic: Not quite so 'Super' League  (Read 527443 times)

Online farawayred

  • Whizz For Atomms. Nucular boffin. A Mars A Day Helps Him Work, Rest And Play
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,691
  • Oh yes, I'm a believer!
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11960 on: August 1, 2021, 01:29:14 am »
I’m not a fan of Perez, but UEFA’s monopoly should be scrutinised. That the founding clubs could make £350m at sign-up shows the money UEFA are raking in given the CL winner gets a fraction of that amount. An alternative European competition run by the clubs, but competitively not a Super League, could be better for all.
I'm more or less of the same opinion. UEFA needs to be put under audition by an entity that represents the clubs, UEFA have to answer to that entity and be kept in check for football-related decisions.

The Super League is a bit like Brexit - it drew attention to the bureaucratic problems at the EU but, arguably, it wasn't the right solution to these problems (IMHO).
Cruyff: "Victory is not enough, there also needs to be beautiful football."

Offline Peabee

  • SKPB! Is goin' down der Asd.....der Waitrose.....anyone wannany hummus?
  • Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,668
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11961 on: August 1, 2021, 01:50:58 am »
I'm more or less of the same opinion. UEFA needs to be put under audition by an entity that represents the clubs, UEFA have to answer to that entity and be kept in check for football-related decisions.

The Super League is a bit like Brexit - it drew attention to the bureaucratic problems at the EU but, arguably, it wasn't the right solution to these problems (IMHO).

Bang on. UEFA is worse than any EU bureaucracy though. It’s like the EU with unelected MEPs on executive salaries.
We aren't walking through the storm now - we are the storm.

Online Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,052
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11962 on: August 1, 2021, 08:53:06 am »
I'm more or less of the same opinion. UEFA needs to be put under audition by an entity that represents the clubs, UEFA have to answer to that entity and be kept in check for football-related decisions.

The Super League is a bit like Brexit - it drew attention to the bureaucratic problems at the EU but, arguably, it wasn't the right solution to these problems (IMHO).

And then UEFA just come back with more shit ideas (this expanded CL bollocks with 10 group games).
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,476
  • YNWA
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11963 on: August 1, 2021, 10:32:38 am »
Bang on. UEFA is worse than any EU bureaucracy though. It’s like the EU with unelected MEPs on executive salaries.

Most taking backhanders.

Offline Scottymuser

  • Has many leather bound books (about football), and his home smells of rich mahogany. Bow to his superior knowledge of central defenders.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,776
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11964 on: August 4, 2021, 12:47:22 am »
I’m not a fan of Perez, but UEFA’s monopoly should be scrutinised. That the founding clubs could make £350m at sign-up shows the money UEFA are raking in given the CL winner gets a fraction of that amount. An alternative European competition run by the clubs, but competitively not a Super League, could be better for all.


Isn't that more because they werew going to do a better job than UEFA at getting tv money - the CL brings in less than 3 billion a year in tv money (in the 2018/19 accounts, tv money rights deals was declared at a total of 2.4B, and 400m for commercial deals)  - and they distribute over 2b of that in tv money to the clubs immediately, so over 70%.  The ESL would be distributing more money than the total revenue of the CL, so to do that they are saying they could double the CL tv rights as they are better businessmen, basically.

For 2019/20, for reference, the total broadcasting rights for the CL, the Europa League and the Super Cup rised - to 3.25B -  and the original split was 295m to cover admin costs, 227m for "solidarity payments"; of the remaining ", 2.73B, 2.55B was due to to be paid out as tv rights to the comptitors in the CL and EL, split 2B to CL participants, and 500m to EL participants.  For reference - the 227m of solidarity payments are to do with clubs that didn't qualify through to the Group Stage of the CL, and then the remaining to the national associations. 

So no, as dodgy as UEFA are, it seems like on this one, small, issue they actually aren't

Offline Peabee

  • SKPB! Is goin' down der Asd.....der Waitrose.....anyone wannany hummus?
  • Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,668
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11965 on: August 4, 2021, 01:29:49 am »

Isn't that more because they werew going to do a better job than UEFA at getting tv money - the CL brings in less than 3 billion a year in tv money (in the 2018/19 accounts, tv money rights deals was declared at a total of 2.4B, and 400m for commercial deals)  - and they distribute over 2b of that in tv money to the clubs immediately, so over 70%.  The ESL would be distributing more money than the total revenue of the CL, so to do that they are saying they could double the CL tv rights as they are better businessmen, basically.

For 2019/20, for reference, the total broadcasting rights for the CL, the Europa League and the Super Cup rised - to 3.25B -  and the original split was 295m to cover admin costs, 227m for "solidarity payments"; of the remaining ", 2.73B, 2.55B was due to to be paid out as tv rights to the comptitors in the CL and EL, split 2B to CL participants, and 500m to EL participants.  For reference - the 227m of solidarity payments are to do with clubs that didn't qualify through to the Group Stage of the CL, and then the remaining to the national associations. 

So no, as dodgy as UEFA are, it seems like on this one, small, issue they actually aren't

then why are they taking lower bids than the optimum? As an FD, I was offered backhanders for my company to take lower bids...
We aren't walking through the storm now - we are the storm.

Offline RainbowFlick

  • The Test Ticket Tout. Head of the RAWK Vice Squad.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,438
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11966 on: August 4, 2021, 06:01:22 pm »
Would your opinions of the ESL have changed if FSG (and other owners) spoke to our/their fans and took our opinions on board in its formation?

I feel like a lot of football fans just don't like change. I'm not supportive of the ESL in the form it was 'sold' but there's a definite need to have drastically better entities than UEFA and the FA.
YNWA.

Offline Dave McCoy

  • "Don't you know who I am?!"
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,460
  • 11,053ft up
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11967 on: August 4, 2021, 08:58:32 pm »
Without reviving the PBG thread that's where all of the owner/PL interest should have gone.  Not sure who was arguing with me about it but with the TV deals renewed at the same level the PL is only going to grow again from here as the economy comes back in time for new TV deals in 2024.  This past year when it seemed they were at their lowest point was the time to get some leverage and some concessions to help the lower leagues and football as a whole.  Now I'd say that window has passed as you hear nothing of it now and why would the PL even talk after the backlash?  Football is just going to continue on this completely unrealistic financial treadmill forever for the lower leagues it seems.  I guess Neville and his friends will be happy that their bullshit team may make them richer.

I'd say the only way the ESL is talked about again with any seriousness in the near future is the PL inviting those teams to join it as a Super Premier League or whatever branding their well paid marketing people come up with and not a complete breakaway league.

Online Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,052
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11968 on: August 5, 2021, 10:43:23 am »
Would your opinions of the ESL have changed if FSG (and other owners) spoke to our/their fans and took our opinions on board in its formation?

I feel like a lot of football fans just don't like change. I'm not supportive of the ESL in the form it was 'sold' but there's a definite need to have drastically better entities than UEFA and the FA.

The problem is, change in football always seems to involve more and more games and more and more competitions. More games and more money.

The Super League is just a further advancement of that.

There's never altruism or glory involved, just more cash grabs. When it's big money that's distorted and spoiled the game, the chase for more of it is never going to be the solution. Look at some of the parasites involved in the ESL. Ignoring our own involvement, the main players are Agnelli, Florentino Perez, The Glazers and the Barcelona board. A who's who of nefariously greedy bastards.

It's telling that the German clubs kept well away from it.
« Last Edit: August 5, 2021, 10:47:54 am by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline skipper757

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,089
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11969 on: August 6, 2021, 08:58:57 pm »
Without reviving the PBG thread that's where all of the owner/PL interest should have gone.  Not sure who was arguing with me about it but with the TV deals renewed at the same level the PL is only going to grow again from here as the economy comes back in time for new TV deals in 2024.  This past year when it seemed they were at their lowest point was the time to get some leverage and some concessions to help the lower leagues and football as a whole.  Now I'd say that window has passed as you hear nothing of it now and why would the PL even talk after the backlash?  Football is just going to continue on this completely unrealistic financial treadmill forever for the lower leagues it seems.  I guess Neville and his friends will be happy that their bullshit team may make them richer.

I'd say the only way the ESL is talked about again with any seriousness in the near future is the PL inviting those teams to join it as a Super Premier League or whatever branding their well paid marketing people come up with and not a complete breakaway league.

Yea, I think that's a non-zero possibility.

Or, if willing to preserve the domestic game, at least some kind of PL-driven new Champions League competition (either pressuring UEFA or creating a new competition).  If the PL gets a lot of other European leagues onboard and created a new competition (where PL gets 8 "CL" spots, La Liga 6, Serie A 4, etc) but more games and more opportunities for big group stages (5 teams instead of 4, top 3 qualify or something) with smaller leagues, it could get traction.  Essentially willing to "share" some pot of a new European competition but that is PL-driven with terms laid out by PL.  Serie A, for example, could hate it, but they'd have no leverage given finances (and if smaller leagues are onboard).  It could be a PL-power play against UEFA and other leagues to ensure that the PL is going to be the top league longer term.  I'd guess the PL will want to flex its muscles at some point.

It's hard for the Top PL clubs to do anything to change the status quo given the other 14 clubs or so will always turn down any attempt at revenue consolidation (but at the same time not reining in City), so if the PL's revenues and popularity continues to grow, the clubs might as well band together and push their own European competition, getting enough other leagues onboard.  Why should the PL only have 4-5 clubs playing in Europe's premier competition when their 10th place club has more revenues and higher wage bills than many other CL-qualified teams in other leagues?  UEFA's already trying to appease this (with the legacy spots), but if the money gap continues to grow, the PL could definitely drive something.  At the same time, they can still have a domestic competition, so that the masses aren't overly upset.

Not sure, I still think a newly-formed continental (or even global) competition at UEFA's expense may be possible if the PL got powerful enough and got enough people onboard.  The Super League concept (that alienates some local rivals and most smaller clubs) will still be too much of a stretch, but if enough PL teams got onboard, maybe.

Crazy we're even talking about this, but then again, Messi is going to PSG, so there's that.
King Kenny.

Offline Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,526
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11970 on: August 6, 2021, 10:25:45 pm »
If there's a Super Premier League does that at least mean we can fuck off and not have to play Everton anymore?
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline Lynx the saucy mynx

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 882
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11971 on: August 12, 2021, 10:55:06 pm »
Question, after seeing the salary cap news tonight I feel the Super League is nailed on now. Whether we join it, I don’t know.

In the event we are dragged into this, is there a possibility sides like us and Real Madrid are stripped/seized of our European cups? Seeing how petty UEFA were to leave us, United and the 3 still in it out of this seasons CL intro, it wouldn’t surprise me. Especially Real Madrid, as it would be impossible for someone to overtake their record. And they won’t want to keep saying they are their most successful team.

Offline CalgarianRed

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11972 on: August 13, 2021, 12:51:49 am »
I feel its a matter of time before a split happens. Will start with the big Spanish and Italian clubs and then possibly clubs like Untied and Liverpool join if City continue to dominate. With the new luxury tax, it makes very hard for clubs outside of PSG, City and Chelsea to compete.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 12:53:32 am by CalgarianRed »
True North Strong

Offline bornandbRED

  • ... an ESL super fan. aka physioSTALKER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,663
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11973 on: August 13, 2021, 01:09:33 am »
Interesting to see the change in mood now as so many were shitting themselves furiously, lead by king shit head Gary Neville. Funny how he has come out in the last couple of days and praised the Glazers now they’ve been thrown a token Sancho to feed on. That bloke doesn’t know his left and right.

Anyway - a. PR disaster class from the clubs in introducing the idea.

Online Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,052
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11974 on: August 13, 2021, 08:42:55 am »
It's all about timing and getting the structure right. Wait until City win 10 titles in a row and PSG/City is the CL final most years and then nobody can really argue with it.

The problem is the dickheads who went ahead with this in the spring, got the timing, structure and announcements all wrong and that's stopped it for a generation and gave the highground to even PSG who didn't join and increased their powerbase within UEFA.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,764
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11975 on: August 13, 2021, 10:09:56 am »
It's all about timing and getting the structure right. Wait until City win 10 titles in a row and PSG/City is the CL final most years and then nobody can really argue with it.

The problem is the dickheads who went ahead with this in the spring, got the timing, structure and announcements all wrong and that's stopped it for a generation and gave the highground to even PSG who didn't join and increased their powerbase within UEFA.

This piss taking this week, from City and PSG, has opened a lot of eyes. This will take 2/3 years max now. Ronaldo to PSG next year is latest rumour.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Online Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,052
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11976 on: August 13, 2021, 10:14:23 am »
This piss taking this week, from City and PSG, has opened a lot of eyes. This will take 2/3 years max now. Ronaldo to PSG next year is latest rumour.

It may have but the PR own goal from the haphazard SL announcement was so bad. The current oligarch run system will need death by a thousand cuts as much as a short sharp shock of more big money spending.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Lynx the saucy mynx

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 882
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11977 on: August 16, 2021, 11:39:35 am »
https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/1427212008538185730?s=21

Looks like we will be a part the announcement later today.

However, his second tweet makes you question the validity of our new agreement

https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/1427212786749345796?s=21

Offline Samie

  • The next Pharaoh of Egypt. The Ev of drafting! Rumoured to be the 7th, we may need that old magic back! The Timekeeper, ask him what time the action starts.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 66,344
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11978 on: August 16, 2021, 03:18:55 pm »
we have rejoined the ECA.

Quote
9 of 12 clubs who tried to set up breakaway European Super League let back into European Club Association - AC Milan, Arsenal, Atletico Madrid, Chelsea, Inter Milan, Liverpool, Man City, Man United, Tottenham all back in.

No Super League ultras - Barcelona, Juventus, Real Madrid

Offline Medellin

  • Self-confessed daft meff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,543
  • Sound
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11979 on: August 16, 2021, 03:21:08 pm »
Didn't the English clubs sign or have an agreement with the FA not to go ahead with this?
Support the team,Trust & Believe.

Offline Dave McCoy

  • "Don't you know who I am?!"
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,460
  • 11,053ft up
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11980 on: August 16, 2021, 05:06:03 pm »
Didn't the English clubs sign or have an agreement with the FA not to go ahead with this?

We signed an agreement with UEFA which entailed us giving up some prize money that FSG will supposedly replace from their own coffers.  I don't believe anything has been done with the PL or FA nor is there any further discussions I can find about it.

Offline Medellin

  • Self-confessed daft meff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,543
  • Sound
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11981 on: August 16, 2021, 05:28:42 pm »
We signed an agreement with UEFA which entailed us giving up some prize money that FSG will supposedly replace from their own coffers.  I don't believe anything has been done with the PL or FA nor is there any further discussions I can find about it.

Found this which is what I vaguely remembered..

https://www.thefa.com/news/2021/jun/09/joint-fa-and-pl-statement-20210609
Support the team,Trust & Believe.

Offline Lynx the saucy mynx

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 882
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11982 on: August 16, 2021, 05:35:44 pm »
I’ve seen people hailing this as the final nail in the coffin of the Super League. But this tweet by Tariq Panja makes me sceptical.

It appears if the European court of justice rule in favour, then the clubs can still join the super league. So what does this mean, are we definitely out now, or is this just another falsehood?

The fact it says binding doesn’t fill me with hope.


https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/1427212786749345796?s=21




Offline Samie

  • The next Pharaoh of Egypt. The Ev of drafting! Rumoured to be the 7th, we may need that old magic back! The Timekeeper, ask him what time the action starts.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 66,344
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11983 on: August 16, 2021, 11:24:26 pm »
Officially back into the ECA.

https://twitter.com/ECAEurope/status/1427249021043847171

Quote
ECA Executive Board accepts Clubs’ requests to retain #ECA membership, completing reintegration of the Clubs into European football.

Quote
The ECA Executive Board has agreed that the following clubs will retain their ECA ordinary membership for the current 2019-23 ECA membership cycle: @acmilan
, @Arsenal
, @ChelseaFC
, @Atleti
, @Inter
, @LFC
, @ManCity
, @ManUtd
 & @SpursOfficial

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,088
  • JFT 97
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11984 on: August 16, 2021, 11:44:03 pm »
I’ve seen people hailing this as the final nail in the coffin of the Super League. But this tweet by Tariq Panja makes me sceptical.

It appears if the European court of justice rule in favour, then the clubs can still join the super league. So what does this mean, are we definitely out now, or is this just another falsehood?

The fact it says binding doesn’t fill me with hope.


https://twitter.com/tariqpanja/status/1427212786749345796?s=21





If that is true we now have legally binding agreements with the Premier League and ECA not to join an ESL and a legally binding agreement to join the ESL.

My conclusion is that the lawyers are going to get richer.
"Ohhh-kayyy"

Offline Samie

  • The next Pharaoh of Egypt. The Ev of drafting! Rumoured to be the 7th, we may need that old magic back! The Timekeeper, ask him what time the action starts.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 66,344
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11985 on: August 17, 2021, 12:03:35 am »
Perez still claiming all 12 clubs have an iron clad contract to join the ESL and when they win their case at CAS it's back on again.

Offline Lynx the saucy mynx

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 882
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11986 on: August 17, 2021, 12:04:36 am »
I see it’s for the 2019-23 cycle. So I assume you could see clubs joining the ESL in 2023. It makes sense with the timeline of the ECJ, as they wouldn’t do it in 2022. By then the December World Cup is completed too.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 12:08:43 am by Lynx the saucy mynx »

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,037
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11987 on: August 17, 2021, 12:13:14 am »
If that is true we now have legally binding agreements with the Premier League and ECA not to join an ESL and a legally binding agreement to join the ESL.

My conclusion is that the lawyers are going to get richer.
Exactly. It’ll come down to which agreement supersedes the other. Which assuming neither contain fundamental errors, a panel of judges will likely rule as the one that came into existence first. So the ESL one. Ultimately though it will be down to the clubs themselves. I can see a scenario where the ESL will indemnify any club ‘rejoining’ against any legal penalties imposed if UEFA successfully sues them for BOC.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,088
  • JFT 97
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11988 on: August 17, 2021, 12:28:12 am »
Exactly. It’ll come down to which agreement supersedes the other. Which assuming neither contain fundamental errors, a panel of judges will likely rule as the one that came into existence first. So the ESL one. Ultimately though it will be down to the clubs themselves. I can see a scenario where the ESL will indemnify any club ‘rejoining’ against any legal penalties imposed if UEFA successfully sues them for BOC.

The bit I don't get is which court would it would end up in. Which court would have ultimate legal jurisdiction over this case. Logically you would think it would be the Court of Arbitration for Sport. However, that only applies if both parties have previously signed up to being arbitrated by CAS.

Considering the ESL never got off the ground would they have signed up to CAS ?
"Ohhh-kayyy"

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,037
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11989 on: August 17, 2021, 01:22:42 am »
Considering the ESL never got off the ground would they have signed up to CAS ?
It may have been aborted in principle but it’s possible Perez and Agnelli incorporated that into the ESL articles.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,088
  • JFT 97
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11990 on: August 17, 2021, 02:01:31 am »
It may have been aborted in principle but it’s possible Perez and Agnelli incorporated that into the ESL articles.

They may have, but I have a feeling that the owners were looking to a more North American setup in which arbitration was between the stakeholders only.

Personally I think the ESL was more about creating a cartel in which everyone profited.
"Ohhh-kayyy"

Offline Lynx the saucy mynx

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 882
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11991 on: August 17, 2021, 10:13:00 am »
It may have been aborted in principle but it’s possible Perez and Agnelli incorporated that into the ESL articles.

The ECA membership is for the 2019-23 cycle. So the agreement will still be held to with the ECA. It’s what happens after 2023.

Offline rossipersempre

  • On the lookuyt for a new winger since 2007 BC. Prodigal, Son.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,037
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11992 on: August 17, 2021, 10:18:29 am »
The ECA membership is for the 2019-23 cycle. So the agreement will still be held to with the ECA. It’s what happens after 2023.
But all the ESL clubs pulled out of the ECA (at the time) so that’s irrelevant. It’s whether the ESL recognised and signed up for CAS. I suspect they would have regardless but seeing City subvert the process and shaft UEFA so effectively, would have been the clincher.

No way on earth that Perez, Agnelli et al will just sit back and wait for 2023 due to a pre-existing and invalid (to them) agreement with the ECA organisation they remain outside of.
My scouse, the often busted but seldom battered Mr Flabby Whore Alien. Who will not send in cottoned wool, bubbled rap, shiny sliver spaced blanket and sum beefy Bovril to keep it warm and safe and snag as bag in a rag? Oh Whore yours is a sweeter leftish peg

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,088
  • JFT 97
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11993 on: August 17, 2021, 01:47:01 pm »
But all the ESL clubs pulled out of the ECA (at the time) so that’s irrelevant. It’s whether the ESL recognised and signed up for CAS. I suspect they would have regardless but seeing City subvert the process and shaft UEFA so effectively, would have been the clincher.

No way on earth that Perez, Agnelli et al will just sit back and wait for 2023 due to a pre-existing and invalid (to them) agreement with the ECA organisation they remain outside of.

Surely though if the ESL clubs had signed up to CAS then Madrid, Barca and Juve would have been obliged to appeal any punishments handed out by UEFA through CAS. Instead they went to the 17th Mercantile Court of Madrid.
"Ohhh-kayyy"

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,476
  • YNWA
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11994 on: August 17, 2021, 01:50:02 pm »
Surely though if the ESL clubs had signed up to CAS then Madrid, Barca and Juve would have been obliged to appeal any punishments handed out by UEFA through CAS. Instead they went to the 17th Mercantile Court of Madrid.

Given they're from UEFA you'd imagine they'd have to go to CAS as it is.

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,088
  • JFT 97
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11995 on: August 17, 2021, 02:09:45 pm »
Given they're from UEFA you'd imagine they'd have to go to CAS as it is.

I think the reasoning is that the ESL is not a UEFA competition, so Madrid, Barca and Juve went to court and argued that UEFA had no right to sanction the ESL clubs. If the ESL had already signed up to CAS then my understanding is that they would have had to go to CAS.

Personally I think that UEFA didn't have a legal right to impose sanctions and that is why the 9 clubs who went back to UEFA were not punished but agreed to a goodwill gesture.
"Ohhh-kayyy"

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,476
  • YNWA
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11996 on: August 17, 2021, 02:22:01 pm »
I think the reasoning is that the ESL is not a UEFA competition, so Madrid, Barca and Juve went to court and argued that UEFA had no right to sanction the ESL clubs. If the ESL had already signed up to CAS then my understanding is that they would have had to go to CAS.

Personally I think that UEFA didn't have a legal right to impose sanctions and that is why the 9 clubs who went back to UEFA were not punished but agreed to a goodwill gesture.

They were sanctioning UEFA member clubs though, which is what they were, and are. It doesn't really matter if they ESL had signed up to it as they remained UEFA club members.

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,088
  • JFT 97
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11997 on: August 17, 2021, 02:52:27 pm »
They were sanctioning UEFA member clubs though, which is what they were, and are. It doesn't really matter if they ESL had signed up to it as they remained UEFA club members.

The Madrid court case though shows that UEFA didn't have a legal basis to punish the ESL clubs.

Both the UEFA and Premier League punishments were voluntary agreements entered into willingly by the Clubs. The ESL didn't fail to happen because of legal issues, it was stopped by fan pressure.

Tellingly both UEFA and the Premier League made the Clubs agree to punitive sanctions if they tried again. That would not have been necessary if either body already had a legal right to impose sanctions in the first place. 

The crux of the issue is that the 9 clubs who buckled have agreed to goodwill gestures and future legal responsibilities, whilst Barca, Madrid and Juve went to court and won.
"Ohhh-kayyy"

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,476
  • YNWA
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11998 on: August 17, 2021, 02:59:47 pm »
The clubs wouldn’t have accepted any punishment if they didn’t feel there was at least some legal standing. It never got tested as a. The fan pressure worked and b. The clubs didn’t want to risk the cost (and potential punishment) of going down the legal route.

I’d not pay too much attention to a Madrid based court backing a largely Madrid lead case.

Offline Eeyore

  • "I have no problem whatsoever stating that FSG have done a good job.".Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,088
  • JFT 97
Re: Not quite so 'Super' League
« Reply #11999 on: August 17, 2021, 03:07:23 pm »
The clubs wouldn’t have accepted any punishment if they didn’t feel there was at least some legal standing. It never got tested as a. The fan pressure worked and b. The clubs didn’t want to risk the cost (and potential punishment) of going down the legal route.

I’d not pay too much attention to a Madrid based court backing a largely Madrid lead case.

It has been tested though Craig.

https://www.bavarianfootballworks.com/2018/3/14/17117942/bayern-munich-eu-commission-isu-ruling-european-super-league-bundesliga-uefa-fifa-psg-mancity


Skating at their own speed: speed-skaters vs the ISU


It all began with a lawsuit brought against the International Skating Union (ISU) by two Dutch speed-skaters, Mark Tuitert and Niers Kersholt. In 2014, the two had wanted to take part in a race in Dubai organized by a South Korean firm called Icederby. The prize money at stake was massive compared to their normal winnings from ISU-sponsored events: a whopping $130,000 versus a measly €2,000 at ISU events.

As the governing body of speed-skating, however, ISU forbade the skaters to take part in the event, threatening them with potentially lifelong bans.

Now the EU Commission has ruled in favor of the plaintiffs: the court decided that prohibiting skaters from participating in outside competitions represents an abuse of the ISU’s market dominance. The EU Competition Commissioner, Margrethe Vestager, ordered the ISU to abolish its “disproportionately punitive” sanctions for athletes who participate in non-ISU competitions.

Vestager concluded that threatening suspensions and bans served “to protect [ISU’s] own commercial interests and prevent others from setting up their own events.” The change should “open up new opportunities for athletes and competing organisers, to the benefit of all ice skating fans.”
"Ohhh-kayyy"