Topic: Kabak signs

[Jm55]

Bit of a shame weren’t not signing Kabak for me, he really grew into that role I think and there’s definitely a player there and likely a player worth the 18 million it would cost to sign him.

That said Konate is certainly rated higher so I’ll look forward to seeing him next season.

[Crosby Nick]

There is an assumption that Konate walks into the first team. I don't think he does. I think he learns how to defend in a Liverpool team in training and is slowly introduced. Konate's physical and technical attributes mirror Gomez and VVD but the difference is Gomez and VVD have experience of the English league and how to perform in a Klopp team.

While that wouldn’t be a bad thing, if we do sign him he may well start the season given we don’t quite know where everyone is in their recovery.

[spider-neil]

While that wouldn’t be a bad thing, if we do sign him he may well start the season given we don’t quite know where everyone is in their recovery.

I think all the centre backs are going to be monitored in pre-season. The plus is every single one of them will be available from day one. Am I right in think the U21 Euros will be over by the time Pre-season kicks off?

[El Lobo]

There are a few 4th choice CBs who would (have) cost that much, or at least similar, and given Matip's injury record there is a strong case that within a year Kabak would be promoted to 4th choice (IMO he is certainly better, with a higher ceiling, than Nat):
Arsenal spent £18 million on Callum Chambers from Southampton, 7 years ago, and Saliba last year for £27m.  Both of those this season have been solidly behind Luiz, Holding and  Gabriel this season for Arsenal, so 4th and 5th choice.
Spurs' 4th and 5th choices are Foyth and Rodon - who cost them 12m and 11m respectively

Even RB Leipzig, would have spent c.15m on 3 CBs on top of their first choice Oban (Mukiele, Gvardian, Simakan), and Klosterman at 5th choice.

A better question would be, given your assumption about Matip being kept (so 3rd and 4th choice being Gomez and Matip), who has a 3rd most expensive CB that cost them that - and then there are a bunch of other teams who have spent big on 3 CBs and kept one to be back up.

If everyone started the season fully fit, and we signed Konate and Kabak, is there much debate that he'd be 5th choice out of all of our CBs?

Like I say I'd like us to sign him, think he's done well for us and will definitely get better. But if funds are even remotely tight, which they surely are, its hard to make an argument to spend that money on him. I still wouldnt put it past Edwards to pull some Jota-esque deal where we pay Schalke £3 million a season for the next five seasons and then loan him out to Red Bull or something immediately.

[RainbowFlick]

Do feel a bit bad for him and *that* Kabak song is too good to be wasted away now. It's a very good price for some team but I think with Konate likely coming in, and possibly Phillips staying, there might be no real space unless Matip is sold.

It's a shame he didn't appear to even be at Anfield on Sunday? He played his part in the games he played so it'd have been nice to have him experience some fans in the ground.

[thaddeus]

I think all the centre backs are going to be monitored in pre-season. The plus is every single one of them will be available from day one. Am I right in think the U21 Euros will be over by the time Pre-season kicks off?

I don't want to turn this into the injury thread but I've read Gomez is likely to have a longer rehab and a more gradual reintroduction.

If Konate is injury prone - I think the jury's out on that - then it's a mistake from the transfer committee.  VvD was an outlier in that he was on the end of a challenge that would never normally happen in football but Gomez suffering another ligament injury and Matip suffering another injury weren't huge surprises.  Similarly Ox came with a history of injury problems as did Keita (although his arguably became more apparent after we'd already agreed the transfer).

As Salah, Gini, Robbo etc. have shown the ability to be available for selection is invaluable compared to everything else.

[Dim Glas]

I don't want to turn this into the injury thread but I've read Gomez is likely to have a longer rehab and a more gradual reintroduction.

If Konate is injury prone - I think the jury's out on that - then it's a mistake from the transfer committee.  VvD was an outlier in that he was on the end of a challenge that would never normally happen in football but Gomez suffering another ligament injury and Matip suffering another injury weren't huge surprises.  Similarly Ox came with a history of injury problems as did Keita (although his arguably became more apparent after we'd already agreed the transfer).

As Salah, Gini, Robbo etc. have shown the ability to be available for selection is invaluable compared to everything else.

Keita didn’t come with a history of injury problems - he only missed 2 league games with injury for Leipzig, and his biggest issue at Salzburg was malaria. Matip didn’t either, their issues are very much Liverpool based.

Konate had a persistent injury that was corrected by surgery.  He then had an ankle ligament injury that kept him out for 6 weeks.  I think Virgil had quite a bad injury the year before he joined liverpool too.

There is always risk - Keita actually being a good example of how a player who didn’t have any serious injuries prior, has become completely unreliable because of constant issues. I am sure they do their due dilligence!

[Welshred]

He's also wrong about Gomez as well

[tubby]

One was quite big where he pretty much spent a year out with a recurrent muscle injury and he had an ankle injury that had him out for 6 weeks in December of this season with no sign of the muscle injury recurring. His injury proneness isn't really a thing to be honest.

What's your reading of the injury stuff in this article and Konate's massive frame potentially being an issue?

https://breakingthelines.com/player-analysis/ibrahima-konate-rb-leipzigs-latest-french-talent/

Physically, Konaté is a freak. At 6ft 4in tall, he has been clocked reaching speeds of 34.4km/h. In comparison, Kylian Mbappé’s electric sprint against Marseille on Sunday hit 36km/h. Whilst it’s fair to say that he’s no slouch, this dynamic explosiveness was always going to cause someone of Konaté stature a problem.

The average weight of a defender in the 2018 World Cup was 78kg. Konaté was last recorded weighing 95kg. Once you combine this raw pace with his size, it’s hard to imagine him staying fully fit once the first bout of injuries arrived. Luckily Leipzig have had more than adequate cover, with compatriots Nordi Mukiele and Upamecano, as well as Orban, providing consistently outstanding performances.

In stylistic terms, Konaté tends to tackles opponents in full stride and frequently overextends his knee and hip adductors (hip flexor) during these challenges. Whilst extremely effective in denying the opposition space and regularly resulting in fine last-ditch tackles, Konaté’s high impact gait means that he is at a much greater risk of knee and hip damage as well as ankle eversion sprains. Ankle eversion sprains are essentially the rolling of the ankle outward and upwards. The greater the force on the ankle when this happens, the greater the damage done.

And this all translates to real injuries. Konaté has struggled with a hip flexor injury since the end of last season and has just come back from an ankle eversion sprain that caused him to miss nine games. Overall, since the opening day of the 2019/20 season (a DFB Pokal clash v VFL Osnabruck), Konaté has been injured for 393 of 552 days, missing a staggering total of 45 games for Leipzig through injury.

When fit, he’s stronger and quicker than almost any other player in world football, but has it got to the point where Konaté’s physicality and defensive style comes at a detriment to his health? He’s still just 21-years-old and clearly has a very promising future with Leipzig and the French national team.

[clinical]

Watch him sign for Newcastle and keeps Salah, Mane and Mbappe in his pocket when he plays against us.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I don't want to turn this into the injury thread but I've read Gomez is likely to have a longer rehab and a more gradual reintroduction.

If Konate is injury prone - I think the jury's out on that - then it's a mistake from the transfer committee.  VvD was an outlier in that he was on the end of a challenge that would never normally happen in football but Gomez suffering another ligament injury and Matip suffering another injury weren't huge surprises.  Similarly Ox came with a history of injury problems as did Keita (although his arguably became more apparent after we'd already agreed the transfer).

As Salah, Gini, Robbo etc. have shown the ability to be available for selection is invaluable compared to everything else.

So why do you think they went ahead and bought him?

[Welshred]

What's your reading of the injury stuff in this article and Konate's massive frame potentially being an issue?

https://breakingthelines.com/player-analysis/ibrahima-konate-rb-leipzigs-latest-french-talent/

It's conjecture.

[tubby]

It's conjecture.

Perfect, all I needed to know.

[clinical]

What's your reading of the injury stuff in this article and Konate's massive frame potentially being an issue?

https://breakingthelines.com/player-analysis/ibrahima-konate-rb-leipzigs-latest-french-talent/

Klopp will get him to slim down and lose a bit of muscle I bet. There will be a plan. Although hasn't worked with Keita clearly.

[JordanTremenderson]

I like Kabak but never felt he had the skillset we look for in our CBs.

Lacked the height for starters.

Van Dijk, Matip, Konate - we like tall CBs.

[thaddeus]

Keita didn’t come with a history of injury problems - he only missed 2 league games with injury for Leipzig, and his biggest issue at Salzburg was malaria. Matip didn’t either, their issues are very much Liverpool based.

Konate had a persistent injury that was corrected by surgery.  He then had an ankle ligament injury that kept him out for 6 weeks.  I think Virgil had quite a bad injury the year before he joined liverpool too.

There is always risk - Keita actually being a good example of how a player who didn’t have any serious injuries prior, has become completely unreliable because of constant issues. I am sure they do their due dilligence!

Keita was injured for 71 days in his final season for RBL.  I'm not disputing that when we agreed the fee he hadn't shown any indication of injury problems as I put in my first post.  You skirted around Oxlade-Chamberlain who had a series of injuries at Arsenal, particularly with his knees - missing 245 days with three separate knee injuries.

I've had a quick look and you're right about Matip, he had missed 88 days in the season two before he joined us but was effectively injury free in the season prior to us signing him.  He was also a low risk Bosman signing.  That he has since suffered - maybe bad luck, maybe in part because of the system we play - and we have two others in his position that are rehabing from serious injuries then I'd think the fitness bar would be even higher for whoever we sign this summer (not that that's any guarantee, of course).  That sounds like good news about his corrective surgery so maybe a lot of his injury history can be largely ignored!

He's also wrong about Gomez as well

I concede to your far greater knowledge on this!  The article I read was discussing the patellar tendon in relation to NBA and that it's known as a career ending injury.  The rehab from light running to elite sport was described as being around six months which would take Gomez to September/October time.  That's not the case?

[Dim Glas]

Keita was injured for 71 days in his final season for RBL.  I'm not disputing that when we agreed the fee he hadn't shown any indication of injury problems as I put in my first post.  You skirted around Oxlade-Chamberlain who had a series of injuries at Arsenal, particularly with his knees - missing 245 days with three separate knee injuries.

I've had a quick look and you're right about Matip, he had missed 88 days in the season two before he joined us but was effectively injury free in the season prior to us signing him.  He was also a low risk Bosman signing.  That he has since suffered - maybe bad luck, maybe in part because of the system we play - and we have two others in his position that are rehabing from serious injuries then I'd think the fitness bar would be even higher for whoever we sign this summer (not that that's any guarantee, of course).  That sounds like good news about his corrective surgery so maybe a lot of his injury history can be largely ignored!

I didn’t ‘skirt around’ anything, stop being accusatory. I commented on players that I knew about a bit more before they signed for Liverpool. 

Keita missed 1 league game through injury in his final season.  That is not disputed.

[Scottymuser]

If everyone started the season fully fit, and we signed Konate and Kabak, is there much debate that he'd be 5th choice out of all of our CBs?

Like I say I'd like us to sign him, think he's done well for us and will definitely get better. But if funds are even remotely tight, which they surely are, its hard to make an argument to spend that money on him. I still wouldnt put it past Edwards to pull some Jota-esque deal where we pay Schalke £3 million a season for the next five seasons and then loan him out to Red Bull or something immediately.

That is a pretty bbig if - both Gomez and Matip won't return to training until a few weeks time, and both have a history of getting injured if pushed too far too quickly - so it wouldn't surprise anyone if the two of them won't be 100% match fit.  Also, you'll notice me saying that by this time next year, if Matip carries on getting injured, there's a good chance Kabak becomes 4th choice - unless you think we can get a better deal next season for a similar skilled, 20-22 year old international quality defender than £18m

[WhereAngelsPlay]

What's your reading of the injury stuff in this article and Konate's massive frame potentially being an issue?

https://breakingthelines.com/player-analysis/ibrahima-konate-rb-leipzigs-latest-french-talent/

Most if not all of the fastest men on the planet are built.

[tubby]

Most if not all of the fastest men on the planet are built.

Welshred has already pooh-poohed it so all good, but I'd make the point that footballers don't just sprint in a straight line.  The article spoke about him extending to reach the ball in tackles and the strains of football on a frame that big, the constant turns and impacts.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Welshred has already pooh-poohed it so all good, but I'd make the point that footballers don't just sprint in a straight line.  The article spoke about him extending to reach the ball in tackles and the strains of football on a frame that big, the constant turns and impacts.

It's the same for NBA players.

[El Lobo]

That is a pretty bbig if - both Gomez and Matip won't return to training until a few weeks time, and both have a history of getting injured if pushed too far too quickly - so it wouldn't surprise anyone if the two of them won't be 100% match fit.  Also, you'll notice me saying that by this time next year, if Matip carries on getting injured, there's a good chance Kabak becomes 4th choice - unless you think we can get a better deal next season for a similar skilled, 20-22 year old international quality defender than £18m

In the nicest way possible to Kabak, we probably could yeah

[newterp]

Kabak gave it his best. No hard feelings - and definitely helped us a bit to secure 4th.

Coaches probably have similar concerns to some of the fans - not quick enough and not necessarily strong enough for the rough and tumble of the PL.

[Ghost Town]

Kabak gave it his best. No hard feelings - and definitely helped us a bit to secure 4th.

Coaches probably have similar concerns to some of the fans - not quick enough and not necessarily strong enough for the rough and tumble of the PL.

I doubt it; coaches rarely have the same concerns as fans, which is what makes fans' blatherings so funny.
 

[newterp]

I doubt it; coaches rarely have the same concerns as fans, which is what makes fans' blatherings so funny.
 

I don’t disagree - but it seems like they weren’t wowed. (Of course there could be other reasons - a new target is available, etc).

[suede lady]

I don’t disagree - but it seems like they weren’t wowed. (Of course there could be other reasons - a new target is available, etc).

I believe the latter to be the case. Once CL was secured a bigger transfer kitty was available, and thus LFC went for the more expensive - and potentially better - player. No slight on Kabak.

[cptrios]

As the husband of a Turkish lady, I'm a bit sad to see Kabak go. Especially since he's never made any public pro-Erdogan pronouncements, as far as I can tell.

By the way, is there an actual thread for Konate somewhere?

[number 168]

You have to feel for Kabak. He was thrown in at the deep end and performed well in the circumstances. Meanwhile Ben Davis remained injured and never kicked a ball for the team yet is retained. I know there is a big difference in the signing fee but I doubt Davis will ever get a game as we are signing Konate and have 3 top centre backs to come back. Even if he does get a game his ability on the pitch at our level is unknown whereas Kabak has shown promise with a great attitude. Davis looks to me like an investment to add value and flog off to another club.

[JerseyKloppite]

Goodbye Oz Kabak
Though we never really knew you at all
You managed to play nine matches
And sometimes kicked the ball

They signed you on loan
Cause they wanted to see you train
They partnered you with Phillips
And they made you up your game

And it seems to me you spent your time
Like a candle in the wind
Never knowing who to pass to
When the ball came in
And I would have liked to have known you
But you got injured again
Your candle burned out long before
Your legend ever did

[Dim Glas]

As the husband of a Turkish lady, I'm a bit sad to see Kabak go. Especially since he's never made any public pro-Erdogan pronouncements, as far as I can tell.

By the way, is there an actual thread for Konate somewhere?

transfer thread is in the general sports forum, so any Konate talk is in there.

[CraigDS]

You have to feel for Kabak. He was thrown in at the deep end and performed well in the circumstances. Meanwhile Ben Davis remained injured and never kicked a ball for the team yet is retained. I know there is a big difference in the signing fee but I doubt Davis will ever get a game as we are signing Konate and have 3 top centre backs to come back. Even if he does get a game his ability on the pitch at our level is unknown whereas Kabak has shown promise with a great attitude. Davis looks to me like an investment to add value and flog off to another club.

It's ridiculous to compare the two though.

[number 168]

It's ridiculous to compare the two though.

Why is it ridiculous?

[Red1976]

At least get him name right. It’s Konate. We don’t know who Konte is? The one at Chelsea is Kante. The one at Sevilla is Kounde ...

Thank you for your post    Now did you agree with the content of my post or not?  Is Konte to big a risk with our past injuries or not? 
 

[Dim Glas]

Why is it ridiculous?

Maybe cos one cost a mill and a half and is likely on very reasonable wages, the other would end up costing 25 mill, and would be earning considerably more.

Maybe the plan is for Davies to be 5th choice next season, who knows! 

I quite liked Kabak, did well all told, Konate is a few levels above though talent wise and suitability wise. So if it’s one or the other, then it’s always going to be Konate.

[CraigDS]

Why is it ridiculous?

You say why yourself in your own post.

The finances behind both deals are night and day. You can’t remove those from the conversation because they are an integral part to the deal and decision making.

[AndyMuller]

I think it was the right decision not to buy him. He turned like a lorry.

[eeekaj]

I think it was the right decision not to buy him. He turned like a lorry.

Agreed.

Felt bad for him coming into the side in the state that we were especially at a young age, but I don't think his style suited us and Konate is a much better fit.

[number 168]

You say why yourself in your own post.

The finances behind both deals are night and day. You can’t remove those from the conversation because they are an integral part to the deal and decision making.

Perhaps, but the disparity in cost is only relevant if there is no disparity in talent. Just because Davies cost a lot less to buy than Kabak doesn't make the deal worthwhile, one would assume that Jurgen thinks Davies is at least as good as Kabak, I doubt he would want someone of inferior quality even if the price was attractive.

[farawayred]

Perhaps, but the disparity in cost is only relevant if there is no disparity in talent. Just because Davies cost a lot less to buy than Kabak doesn't make the deal worthwhile, one would assume that Jurgen thinks Davies is at least as good as Kabak, I doubt he would want someone of inferior quality even if the price was attractive.

Ignore Davis, and apply your logic to Kabak and Konate. Kabak costs £18m up to £26m with add-ons (don't know the details, but assume they can be met). Konate costs £36m. For an extra £10m or so we are getting a player with a much higher ceiling, who is also fast and can play in a high line. Disparity in cost relates to disparity in talent in this case, I think.

[Keith Lard]

Agreed.

Felt bad for him coming into the side in the state that we were especially at a young age, but I don't think his style suited us and Konate is a much better fit.

Shouldn't feel bad. Kabak's profile and value went up a notch playing for us, and he got back that winning feeling. He goes back to Schalke a much better and more confident player.