Topic: Kop to be expanded ...

[poopscoop]

My mistake, I should have read further back.

[andy07]

The Kop has been in that position since 1906. Moving it to the opposite side, whilst the current one will still be there, and switching its name would not then make it The Kop.

Kind of like if he moved to a new stadium and called it Anfield it would not be Anfield.

I would like the Kop to be a large single tier terrace with a capacity of 20000+.  The question I asked was is adding another 7000 seats above doable?   

[CraigDS]

I would like the Kop to be a large single tier terrace with a capacity of 20000+.  The question I asked was is adding another 7000 seats above doable?

I know that's what you asked. I was in convo with someone else who was on about moving the Kop to the Anny Rd end.

[RedorRed]

No I get that but how many people wanted to move or were happy with a move, about 50/50?

And what makes the Kop, its position, what it is made of, its design, or the people in it?

I dunno, but like say an attachment to Melwood, sometimes you can not let history hold you back from going forward. Is the Kop with seats all that? If they could make a giant single tier at the ARE and get more people in at the right place is that not better? And if they make it so it could easily convert to standing, and you have all that space behind for crowd management - I would say any logical analysis would say it makes sense. It also then allows the Kop to have a 2nd tier and remove some of the problems of expanding that maybe? Not saying I want to do that but I can see merit in doing it that way.

I’ve been pushing for this idea for years. It makes sense for the club to open that conversation with the supporters and it wouldn’t cost that much to draft up some artist impressions of a new Uber Kop!!! As mentioned that would also allow us to investigate adding and 2nd tier at the current Kop end. I for one believe it’s the people within the Kop that make it what it is..... as the original was torn down and rebuilt but it remains the Kop. If there is no appitete for the moving of the Kop to the ARE then we can put it to bed. But we’d have a chance of making something steep, intimidating and accostically amazing if designed right!!!

[Danny Boy]

I’ve been pushing for this idea for years. It makes sense for the club to open that conversation with the supporters and it wouldn’t cost that much to draft up some artist impressions of a new Uber Kop!!! As mentioned that would also allow us to investigate adding and 2nd tier at the current Kop end. I for one believe it’s the people within the Kop that make it what it is..... as the original was torn down and rebuilt but it remains the Kop. If there is no appitete for the moving of the Kop to the ARE then we can put it to bed. But we’d have a chance of making something steep, intimidating and accostically amazing if designed right!!!

Given that the club have outline PP for the new ARE (and with the recent whispers about size/spec etc), the notion of moving the Kop to the ARE is less than a non-starter. Now or ever.

[owens_2k]

You can't just move it and call it the Kop. It's called the Kop specifically because of where it is situated and the landscape when originally constructed.

If you want to make a big one tiered stand at the ARE then fine. But its not the Kop.

[Peter McGurk]

I’ve been pushing for this idea for years. It makes sense for the club to open that conversation with the supporters and it wouldn’t cost that much to draft up some artist impressions of a new Uber Kop!!! As mentioned that would also allow us to investigate adding and 2nd tier at the current Kop end. I for one believe it’s the people within the Kop that make it what it is..... as the original was torn down and rebuilt but it remains the Kop. If there is no appitete for the moving of the Kop to the ARE then we can put it to bed. But we’d have a chance of making something steep, intimidating and accostically amazing if designed right!!!

We've had the 'it's the people what makes the place' debate all along, especially when considering staying or building new. And the Trigger's Broom debate.

Of course it has all changed over the years but there's something about the 'spirit of the place' that's a really genuine consideration. I stood there, my dad stood there, his dad stood there... There's people's ashes buried there. It all passes from generation to generation. Makes the place part of what it is.

Even the name has changed. Not the Spion Kop any more but still the best spec at the best end for seeing the match and supporting the team.

Not only that but also it’s not a simple matter to just add a second tier to the kop - for the many reasons given.

[Billy Elliot]

You can't just move it and call it the Kop. It's called the Kop specifically because of where it is situated and the landscape when originally constructed.

If you want to make a big one tiered stand at the ARE then fine. But its not the Kop.

The old home end at Filbert Street was called the Kop, but it was two tiered with the terracing in the bottom.

I'm not arsed myself what it's called (as far as I'm concerned the Kop was demolished in 1994).  The only reason why the Breck Road Stand will always be called the Kop by the Club is for marketing reasons. Then again, I still call the Kenny the Kemlyn out of habit.

What ever we do with it I'll still call it the Road End, and the Breck Road End the Kop.  If the club renamed it though it wouldn't arse me in the slightest.  Especially if naming rights were used to bring priced down, as if that'd happen though.

[Billy Elliot]

Of course it has all changed over the years but there's something about the 'spirit of the place' that's a really genuine consideration. I stood there, my dad stood there, his dad stood there...

I think that tradition has been dead and buried for a while.  Going the match has became something that Dad's do.  Between ten and twenty years from now it'll be something that Grandads's do.

[kopite 1]

went to the legends game on Saturday and sat in the main stand lower, My ST is in the kop so never get the chance to see it from the other stands, Its amazing how small the kop now looks with the main stand towering over it, Going back to when it was standing it wasn't the size of the kop going front to back that was so intimidating but the fact it stretched across the whole pitch past the corner flags back into the corners, This got me thinking as to why the corners have never been filled in as we definitely have the space to do so without affecting breck road, surely making the kop wider would be more cost effective than building a bigger kop which may not be possible at all.

Does anybody with expert knowledge know why this wasn't done when the main stand was built

[Jonny-B]

went to the legends game on Saturday and sat in the main stand lower, My ST is in the kop so never get the chance to see it from the other stands, Its amazing how small the kop now looks with the main stand towering over it, Going back to when it was standing it wasn't the size of the kop going front to back that was so intimidating but the fact it stretched across the whole pitch past the corner flags back into the corners, This got me thinking as to why the corners have never been filled in as we definitely have the space to do so without affecting breck road, surely making the kop wider would be more cost effective than building a bigger kop which may not be possible at all.

Does anybody with expert knowledge know why this wasn't done when the main stand was built

Quick answer the whole Kop roof would have to come off to do it. As it has trusses holding it up in the corners.

[Alan_X]

Quick answer the whole Kop roof would have to come off to do it. As it has trusses holding it up in the corners.

Not strictly true - there's a goalpost frame holding up the front of the roof which could be replaced with a cantilevered support like in Dortmund.

Before with 'goalpost' supporting the roof:



After with cantilevered roof supports:

[kopite 1]

definitely enough room behind both corners of the kop to fit the Dortmund model in and wont be a huge cost for the benefit of a few more thousand seats, Might get the old boys pen back

[Alan_X]

definitely enough room behind both corners of the kop to fit the Dortmund model in and wont be a huge cost for the benefit of a few more thousand seats, Might get the old boys pen back

I'm not sure about that. At Dortmund the expense was justified because the corner infills were all hospitality.

[Alan_X]

I think last night showed that size isn't everything.

[CraigDS]

I'm not sure about that. At Dortmund the expense was justified because the corner infills were all hospitality.

Wasn't it, at least partly, funded by the Govt for the WC too?

[Alan_X]

Wasn't it, at least partly, funded by the Govt for the WC too?

I think so.

[The Lord Admiral]

I think last night showed that size isn't everything.

Indeed. But imagine the noise if they'd done the ARE at the same time as the Main though.

Probably could have sold 100K tickets for last night.

[sminp]

I think last night showed that size isn't everything.

What you and your wife get up to should probably remain behind closed doors mate

[Macred]

Wasn't it, at least partly, funded by the Govt for the WC too?

Like Everton!? 

You think the LCC would fund the moving of Walton Breck Road if they can take a chance loaning Everton £500m. And.... how can they justify an extra 10 to 15 seats for £500m plus interest payments of £15m per year...  on current matchday income of £14m per year...    and we are umming and arring about £50m to add 7 or 8,000 seats.... which will generate almost £10m per year (i.e. nearly the whole of Everton's current match day income). How does that compute?

[CraigDS]

Using Everton as a reason for us to do Anny Rd is not really the best example you could give!

[Alan_X]

Like Everton!? 

You think the LCC would fund the moving of Walton Breck Road if they can take a chance loaning Everton £500m. And.... how can they justify an extra 10 to 15 seats for £500m plus interest payments of £15m per year...  on current matchday income of £14m per year...    and we are umming and arring about £50m to add 7 or 8,000 seats.... which will generate almost £10m per year (i.e. nearly the whole of Everton's current match day income). How does that compute?

Not the same - Dortmund's corner infills were funded by the state for the World Cup. Everton are getting a line of credit they'll have to pay back plus a premium.

And can we knock the 'diverting WBR' bollocks on the head once and for all. It's not going to happen and doesn't need to happen.

Not sure how you get to £10m pa additional revenue. It's 6-7,000 seats max from 54,000 to 60,000+. At say £40 a seat for GA and concessions (no additional hospitality) that's £5m pa for league games. Say a minimum of 5 cup games (you don't do forecasts on best-case) which will probably be at a lower price that's another £1.2m.

So maybe £6.5m less day to day running costs for the additional seats (say 25% but probably more) that's under £5m pa - and of course you need to set aside at least some profit for improving the squad so maybe £4m pa to pay back the construction cost.

What were you basing your calculations on? £77 a ticket?

[Macred]

Not the same - Dortmund's corner infills were funded by the state for the World Cup. Everton are getting a line of credit they'll have to pay back plus a premium.

And can we knock the 'diverting WBR' bollocks on the head once and for all. It's not going to happen and doesn't need to happen.

Not sure how you get to £10m pa additional revenue. It's 6-7,000 seats max from 54,000 to 60,000+. At say £40 a seat for GA and concessions (no additional hospitality) that's £5m pa for league games. Say a minimum of 5 cup games (you don't do forecasts on best-case) which will probably be at a lower price that's another £1.2m.

So maybe £6.5m less day to day running costs for the additional seats (say 25% but probably more) that's under £5m pa - and of course you need to set aside at least some profit for improving the squad so maybe £4m pa to pay back the construction cost.

What were you basing your calculations on? £77 a ticket?

I was being a tad facetious re. Everton. But Big Joe is no longer talking about a line of credit if Everton can not raise the gap in funding between that which LCC has offered and the £500m current projected cost (and which is only likely to rise again). If you take a look on Liverpool Business News this week Big  J has said that the council will fund the construction of the entire stadium and lease it to Everton i.e. no loans to Everton at all and no risk to Everton.

If we say seats for an expansion 61,000 (albeit Andrew Parkinson (now gone from LFC) had mention a year ago 62k in a supporter meeting) so 7,000 additional seats. Its about £48 a ticket in the ARE now. 7k x £48 = £336,000 x 25 games (which is what led to believe is what they use for forecasts) that is £8.4 million. This year if we get semi final CL we will play 28 games (2 FA Cup, 19 league and 7 CL) = 336,00 x 28 = £9.4m+

Say 25% of the 7,000 spend £10 on drink, food or a programme - 1,750 x £10 x 25 = £437,500 Or x 28 = £490,000 - so £8.8m to £9.89m

Add in maybe a preseason friendly at £20 - 7,000 x 20 = £140,000

And that is the stand that Thomas Cook are in...  I just can see that if the demand is there they would not add another 500 (out of the 7,000) there would not be too many complaints?!

Ticket prices will go up at some point and there are already £53 tickets in the ARE behind the goals so at some point and we are what 2 or 3 years from any expansion opening I can not see prices not rising in that time and/or the £53 tickets are upper ARE behind the goal, the expansion will mean greater provision of these more expensive seats.  So IMO £10m is not over optimistic... but between £8m to £10m is decent return in revenue PA if it costs £50m to build it.

And that is presuming GA type seats - the suggestion is a mini main stand with what you would presume the middle tier being corp lite - for TC lots etc and they can take them out the Kop etc and get them in one stand maybe?... and they will have a proper food place, even a shop in that end for that middle tier.

Re, running costs, no idea to be honest - would a bigger stand cost that much more to run or would you have some economy of scale i.e as a proportion of total stand revenue the cost of managing e.g the stand as now costs £1m a year to run, a stand twice as big would for £1.25m to run (so not £2m)... if you follow what I not explaining very well.

[CraigDS]

A lease and a loan can carry very similar, in fact identical, securities so the risk to Everton can be the same.

[decisivemoment]

That financing for Everton is essentially a loan guarantee in light of the mayor's recent comments, is it not? What happens if they can't pay? Liverpool taxpayers and city council operations eat it, am I right? And if I'm right, that's beyond a reckless amount of money to lend. It would be reckless even if they had Manchester United's finances. It's bloody insane with Everton's. City Council FC indeed.

[Kop Kenny]

Surely to God big Joe cannot risk that amount of Council Tax payers cash without being challenged over it? This would be an insane move for a local authority to finance the building of a conservatively estimated £600 million stadium on the whim that the blue shite could even afford the rent and with no world event to stage to justify building such a stadium, like a WC or Commonwealth Games. If the city then found itself in the situation where the tennent could not pay the rent, what then? Do they file for eviction and leave the ratepayers with a complete white elephant on their hands and file for bankruptcy against Everton, where would that leave them? It is a crazy idea and desreves a legal challenge if he even attempts it.

As for the ARE I would go for the 62K and have hospitality ie. a smaller scale but mirrored version of the Main. This would give greater flexibility, higher income and look better overall. I quite like the idea of filling in the corners just like Dortmund and this could be looked at some time in the future but surely if this was to be their intention then it would have been included in the design of the roof of the Main initially and saved the extra expense and hassle of having to alter that at a later date?

Back on topic though it's probably too late to divert the WBR so we need to look at a complete new re-design including cantilever to make the Kop any bigger and hopefully get to the same roof height as the Main.

[Eeyore]

A lease and a loan can carry very similar, in fact identical, securities so the risk to Everton can be the same.

If it is a financial institution doing the due diligence then Yes they will look to minimise risk and broker a deal that leaves them only looking at positives. With government bodies it is entirely different for instance would a financial institution of underwritten the deal that leaves the task payer on the hook for additional security at West Ham home games ? 

[Eeyore]

Surely to God big Joe cannot risk that amount of Council Tax payers cash without being challenged over it? This would be an insane move for a local authority to finance the building of a conservatively estimated £600 million stadium on the whim that the blue shite could even afford the rent and with no world event to stage to justify building such a stadium, like a WC or Commonwealth Games. If the city then found itself in the situation where the tennent could not pay the rent, what then? Do they file for eviction and leave the ratepayers with a complete white elephant on their hands and file for bankruptcy against Everton, where would that leave them? It is a crazy idea and desreves a legal challenge if he even attempts it.

As for the ARE I would go for the 62K and have hospitality ie. a smaller scale but mirrored version of the Main. This would give greater flexibility, higher income and look better overall. I quite like the idea of filling in the corners just like Dortmund and this could be looked at some time in the future but surely if this was to be their intention then it would have been included in the design of the roof of the Main initially and saved the extra expense and hassle of having to alter that at a later date?

Back on topic though it's probably too late to divert the WBR so we need to look at a complete new re-design including cantilever to make the Kop any bigger and hopefully get to the same roof height as the Main.

The chances of getting the Kop the same height as the Main Stand are pretty much nil. If we want a massive home end then the Annie Rd is an obvious opportunity. We have the space to build whatever we want.

[CraigDS]

If it is a financial institution doing the due diligence then Yes they will look to minimise risk and broker a deal that leaves them only looking at positives. With government bodies it is entirely different for instance would a financial institution of underwritten the deal that leaves the task payer on the hook for additional security at West Ham home games ?

You can't compare the two. The Olympic Stadium was there and something had to be done with it. Would such a deal have been agreed for a brand new stadium to be built just for a football club - no, of course not (hence it never has been).

Fact is this deal isn't going to be decided by one (Fat, bald, Everton supporting) guy, and they'll want certain securities in place - which have already been mentioned by that Fat, bald, Everton supporter.

[TepidT2O]

Can’t comapre the two?  Oh, just watch....

[Eeyore]

You can't compare the two. The Olympic Stadium was there and something had to be done with it. Would such a deal have been agreed for a brand new stadium to be built just for a football club - no, of course not (hence it never has been).

That just shows how inept the planning was though Craig. There is no way on earth a financial institution would of built a Stadium without having a tenant signed up. There is no way a financial institution would agree to a deal that sees West Ham pay £1.25m if they are relegated with the tax payer picking up the bill for the upkeep of the Stadium and stewarding.

Fact is this deal isn't going to be decided by one (Fat, bald, Everton supporting) guy, and they'll want certain securities in place - which have already been mentioned by that Fat, bald, Everton supporter.

In a City that saw the Hatton era and the setting of an illegal budget you are placing far too much trust in the people who will make this decision. The people who built a car park with no sprinklers.

[breck roader]

 i was on the ale in town a few days ago an got talking to some girl who works for liverpool at the ground. After about 10 mins talking she called over her 2 mates who also works for liverpool. We got onto the subject of the new main stand then onto the anny road and the kop. One of the girls says 'well i'll tell ya, at the minute nothings going to happen to the kop!' her mates start tellin her to shut up! dont know whos listening an all that. she says 'i dont give a shit! bout time they knew! she then goes on to say how liverpool want to expand the kop but cant because it means the Albert pub getting knocked down to make way. the club offered the owner 1 million quid, he turned it down, they then offered 1.2, he turned it down again hoping for a bigger offer. this could be a load of crap an the girls were winding me up, but.....i just dont think so! anyone else heard these rumours?

[CraigDS]

Don’t think the pub would be a problem, especially given we’ve just built the new club store which backs up onto it.

[Macred]

i was on the ale in town a few days ago an got talking to some girl who works for liverpool at the ground. After about 10 mins talking she called over her 2 mates who also works for liverpool. We got onto the subject of the new main stand then onto the anny road and the kop. One of the girls says 'well i'll tell ya, at the minute nothings going to happen to the kop!' her mates start tellin her to shut up! dont know whos listening an all that. she says 'i dont give a shit! bout time they knew! she then goes on to say how liverpool want to expand the kop but cant because it means the Albert pub getting knocked down to make way. the club offered the owner 1 million quid, he turned it down, they then offered 1.2, he turned it down again hoping for a bigger offer. this could be a load of crap an the girls were winding me up, but.....i just dont think so! anyone else heard these rumours?

Sounds like BS.

Somewhere in the planning documents is reference to the Albert potentially being subject to a CPO - so I would imagine if there was any serious intention to develop the Kop and or if it was actually necessary to knock it down (which I am not convinced would the be the case) given everything else that has been bull dozed through, I dont see that a CPO would not be pursued and granted post haste.

[RedSince86]

i was on the ale in town a few days ago an got talking to some girl who works for liverpool at the ground. After about 10 mins talking she called over her 2 mates who also works for liverpool. We got onto the subject of the new main stand then onto the anny road and the kop. One of the girls says 'well i'll tell ya, at the minute nothings going to happen to the kop!' her mates start tellin her to shut up! dont know whos listening an all that. she says 'i dont give a shit! bout time they knew! she then goes on to say how liverpool want to expand the kop but cant because it means the Albert pub getting knocked down to make way. the club offered the owner 1 million quid, he turned it down, they then offered 1.2, he turned it down again hoping for a bigger offer. this could be a load of crap an the girls were winding me up, but.....i just dont think so! anyone else heard these rumours?

Would that be a total rebuild making the Kop steeper like Dortmund's Yellow Wall or just adding more seats by filling in the corners.

With the way FSG have renovated Fenway Park and added seats possible in a myriad of ways then i can see them going the same way  with the Kop and filling the corners.

[The Lord Admiral]

Would that be a total rebuild making the Kop steeper like Dortmund's Yellow Wall or just adding more seats by filling in the corners.

With the way FSG have renovated Fenway Park and added seats possible in a myriad of ways then i can see them going the same way  with the Kop and filling the corners.

Some good pics of Dortmund's corners and Peter McGurk's mock up of a new Kop end on Page 4 of this thread.

I think I agree with you that they are more likely to do as much as they can without a rebuild. Although I think to do much in the corners you'd have to take the roof off.

They could do something pretty magnificent with this year's CL money though, if the urge is there.

I can see the benefit in waiting until Safe Standing comes back though. At that point the sums might work a bit better for a total rebuild.

[thejbs]

Would that be a total rebuild making the Kop steeper like Dortmund's Yellow Wall or just adding more seats by filling in the corners.

With the way FSG have renovated Fenway Park and added seats possible in a myriad of ways then i can see them going the same way  with the Kop and filling the corners.

Would love a steeper Kop. Looks more ferocious from the field.

[Asam]

I’ve been pushing for this idea for years. It makes sense for the club to open that conversation with the supporters and it wouldn’t cost that much to draft up some artist impressions of a new Uber Kop!!! As mentioned that would also allow us to investigate adding and 2nd tier at the current Kop end. I for one believe it’s the people within the Kop that make it what it is..... as the original was torn down and rebuilt but it remains the Kop. If there is no appitete for the moving of the Kop to the ARE then we can put it to bed. But we’d have a chance of making something steep, intimidating and accostically amazing if designed right!!!

Makes perfect sense but it's football so the heart tends to rule the head

[A-Bomb]

Makes perfect sense but it's football so the heart tends to rule the head

I disagree, the sentiment of the kop is based upon a large singular hill in South Africa - adding tiers to that, would mean it loses the heritage the name attached to it was intended.... it would no longer be 'one large visually insurmountable object'

It's a non starter for me, for what is one of the most famous stands in football, we need to keep maintain the historic romance attached to it, otherwise it no longer is a 'kop'

[RedorRed]

I disagree, the sentiment of the kop is based upon a large singular hill in South Africa - adding tiers to that, would mean it loses the heritage the name attached to it was intended.... it would no longer be 'one large visually insurmountable object'

It's a non starter for me, for what is one of the most famous stands in football, we need to keep maintain the historic romance attached to it, otherwise it no longer is a 'kop'

I think you’re missing the point...... we would make the current Anfield Road End a brand new ‘SINGLE’ tier stand because we can build back. That would become the Kop..... one large visually insurmountable object.
And that would then allow us to build another tier on the existing Kop..... because we can build up but not as far back.
Also the home dressing room is that end of the main stand so the players can run out and to that end...... at present they’re having to cross over to the other side..... not a massive problem I know.