Topic: Labour Thread * No Gaza *

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I'm not sure about that. It would obviously be a terrible thing if it happened, as it would be if there were a Jewish party or a Christian party. Communal politics always ends up making life unliveable for everyone. My sense is that there are too many young Muslim women (especially) in the UK who can see past the Gaza issue to realise that an Islamist party would be a disaster for them.

Very few people can see through the Gaza "Issue" as you call it & why would they when the "issue" is only getting worse with land theft & school bombings a daily occurrence.

Should the Ukrainians just get over it as well ?

[Yorkykopite]

Very few people can see through the Gaza "Issue" as you call it & why would they when the "issue" is only getting worse with land theft & school bombings a daily occurrence.

Should the Ukrainians just get over it as well ?

Should the Ukrainians "get over" what? The invasion of their country by Russia? Of course they shouldn't. Nor should Palestinians be expected to "get over" the invasion of Gaza by the Israelis. But who said they should? Stop being obtuse.

I said that I expected enough Muslim women in Britain would "see past Gaza" to realise that men like Yakoob (and others who were exploiting the Gaza tragedy) were not politicians who would deliver anything for them. This is obvious isn't it? Thery are deeply misogynist, violent, anti-democratic and most likely anti-semitic too. Not everyone who 'supports' Gaza should be your friend.

[west_london_red]

I said that I expected enough Muslim women in Britain would "see past Gaza" to realise that men like Yakoob (and others who were exploiting the Gaza tragedy) were not politicians who would deliver anything for them. This is obvious isn't it? Thery are deeply misogynist, violent, anti-democratic and most likely anti-semitic too. Not everyone who 'supports' Gaza should be your friend.

Why would women specifically see past it?

[Yorkykopite]

Why would women specifically see past it?

Because they are the universal victims of Islamism.

[west_london_red]

Because they are the universal victims of Islamism.

Out of curiosity do you know many Muslim women or even Muslims in general?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Out of curiosity do you know many Muslim women or even Muslims in general?

I heard that like all other women, they hate to see school children blown to bits, shit like that tends to be a black and white issue, especially when it happens constantly.

[Yorkykopite]

Out of curiosity do you know many Muslim women or even Muslims in general?

I do. They are all fairly-highly educated so it will skew things I admit. I also grew up in a town with a large Muslim population and went to school with an unusually high percentage of immigrants from a Punjabi background, but that was many years ago, I admit. I have also travelled and worked in Muslim countries and interviewed many Muslim women as part of my job. I've made and retained friends from these places, especially Pakistan. But that's abroad, I admit. I've also read a lot around the issues of Islamism and the history of places like Iran, but not only Iran. But these are books only, I admit. But if you add all that together it might mean I am not totally ignorant about stuff.

[west_london_red]

I heard that like all other women, they hate to see school children blown to bits, shit like that tends to be a black and white issue, especially when it happens constantly.

If only that were true, unfortunately there’s fucked up women just like there’s fucked up women of all faiths.

[west_london_red]

I do. They are all fairly-highly educated so it will skew things I admit. I also grew up in a town with a large Muslim population and went to school with an unusually high percentage of immigrants from a Punjabi background, but that was many years ago, I admit. I have also travelled and worked in Muslim countries and interviewed many Muslim women as part of my job. I've made and retained friends from these places, especially Pakistan. But that's abroad, I admit. I've also read a lot around the issues of Islamism and the history of places like Iran, but not only Iran. But these are books only, I admit. But if you add all that together it might mean I am not totally ignorant about stuff.

We must move and have moved in different circles, because I see absolutely no sign of what you think is going to happen, I’d say if anything it’s moved in the opposite direction over my life time.

[Red Beret]

We've already had one thread locked because of the Gaza/Islamism issue. Let's try not to make it two for two.

[classycarra]

We've already had one thread locked because of the Gaza/Islamism issue. Let's try not to make it two for two.

agreed on the former, not sure why WAP is seemingly intending on getting the thread locked. but there's nowt wrong with discussing islamism or misogyny

[Yorkykopite]

We must move and have moved in different circles, because I see absolutely no sign of what you think is going to happen, I’d say if anything it’s moved in the opposite direction over my life time.

Ten years ago, even five I would have agreed with what you say. Identity politics affected Muslim women as much as anyone else. Why wouldn't it? There was a growing fashion for the veil, especially among students, which was indicative. The war in Iraq had an obvious effect too on identities. But my understanding is that the climate - in mosques, but also in the wider community - had become more hostile in recent years to Islamism. Too many atrocities across the world had removed the halo from those who preached jihad of that kind. Plus a lot of their spokesmen were in jail.

The war in Gaza has clouded things a bit I think, and perhaps may even push many young Muslim women back into the orbit of the Islamists who want to make it the only issue that matters. But I wonder if the overall trend is still the other way. I suspect we need to keep looking at Iran where the 'heroic' women are the ones who offend the misogynistic laws of the country and who refuse to wear the veil (or wear it 'inappropriately') and often pay a heavy price. Iran '79, after all, was the seismic event which shifted opinion in the wider Muslim world. It took time of course. I was still at school in '79, but I always say that all the Muslims I knew in the 6th form who were politically active (and a high proportion were) belonged to various Marxist groups in the town, especially Trotskyist ones. Ten years or twenty years later - especially post-Satanic Verses - they were far more likely to be in Hizb-ut-Tahrir or groups like that. I remember being asked to give a speech at an all-girls Muslim school in Bradford after Satanic Verses. They were 6th formers, bright, sparky, and incredibly devout. It was so different to what it had been when I was their age.

We've moved a long way here from Labour politics. Too far. But I reckon that in another 10 years the pendulum will have swung a long way back to secular activism again.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

If only that were true, unfortunately there’s fucked up women just like there’s fucked up women of all faiths.

Should've put most.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

agreed on the former, not sure why WAP is seemingly intending on getting the thread locked. but there's nowt wrong with discussing islamism or misogyny

I never brought it up.

[Commie Bobbie]

Just been having a look at some of the swings from Conservative to Labour on Thursday - and down here in SE Kent - the swing was over 40% in at least two constituencies including my own.

Absurd doesn't cut it.

[Red Beret]

agreed on the former, not sure why WAP is seemingly intending on getting the thread locked. but there's nowt wrong with discussing islamism or misogyny

Of course nowt wrong - but as we've seen, debate can spiral out of control fast and before we know it a thread can find itself locked.

[Lusty]

Just been having a look at some of the swings from Conservative to Labour on Thursday - and down here in SE Kent - the swing was over 40% in at least two constituencies including my own.

Absurd doesn't cut it.

Much as I was uncomfortable with it, I think the defection of the Dover MP just before the election was critical. Obviously the boats are a big issue in your neck of the woods and I think by that point everyone had seen through Rwanda.

I worry that those seats might be vulnerable to reform next time though.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Ok so re-opened my Social Media.

The number of so-called fucking socialists that are fucking gutted that the Tories are out is fucking disgusting.

I have been quite kind when I've met you c*nts. Not so much now you absolute fucking inbred fucking twats.

Fuck you.

[west_london_red]

Ok so re-opened my Social Media.

The number of so-called fucking socialists that are fucking gutted that the Tories are out is fucking disgusting.

I have been quite kind when I've met you c*nts. Not so much now you absolute fucking inbred fucking twats.

Fuck you.

Which social media are you referring to?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Which social media are you referring to?

Facebook. Unbanned a couple of groups thinking they'd be made up as they are left-leaning and the Tories are fucked off.

But no. It's time to get rid of the traitors and Scum Starmer.


Honestly these c*nts boil my fucking piss.

[Red Beret]

If you're not chasing the socialist utopia of making everyone happy and having Israel disappear, you are apparently a Red Tory.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Ok so re-opened my Social Media.

The number of so-called fucking socialists that are fucking gutted that the Tories are out is fucking disgusting.

I have been quite kind when I've met you c*nts. Not so much now you absolute fucking inbred fucking twats.

Fuck you.

I think that I managed a clean sweep (real life not socials) & got rid of all the rats after Brexit, at least I've not met anybody over the weekend, who looked a bit glum.

[Snail]

My ex MP (boundary change)

In my experience and that of other people in a similar position to my building issue we went to her about, she's fuckin terrible, ignorant, passed the buck, showed zero care of ownership especially about something that involved criminal negligence, sending us emails / letters riddled with typos that to me just made me assume she's got some work experience gonk doing it

Bad MP

So I welcome her being a bit punished

I've had the misfortune of being in the same room as Kim Johnson a few times. She is an awful person.

Unfortunately due to the boundary changes, Dan Carden is no longer my MP, Kim is. Fab!

[So… Howard Philips]

I've had the misfortune of being in the same room as Kim Johnson a few times. She is an awful person.

Unfortunately due to the boundary changes, Dan Carden is no longer my MP, Kim is. Fab!

Has Carden got a Ministerial post yet?

[gazzalfc]

Liverpool Riverside had a huge surge in Green party voters this time round. Which accounts for the 23% drop in vote share.

There was never any doubt of Johnson losing and it's good that even if you combine the 3272 Reform meffs with the 1155 weirdos that voted conservative, they still wouldn't have beaten the greens.

Everything that happened with Louise Ellman a few years ago has got local CLP circling the wagons as well

[Yorkykopite]

Excellent that Labour's new Defence secretary (John Healey is already in Ukraine - with Zelinskiy in Odesa.

[Snail]

Has Carden got a Ministerial post yet?

Not that I’m aware of. He’s a talented chap and a good MP.

[Wabaloolah]

We've already had one thread locked because of the Gaza/Islamism issue. Let's try not to make it two for two.

[classycarra]

Not that I’m aware of. He’s a talented chap and a good MP.

got to be a solid chance of a junior post (and more) in the not too distant future when some relevant posts come up, given he's had some limited shadow experience and has also resigned from the Socialist Campaign Group (so is more likely to maintain loyalty).

Was probably the SCG's most competent MP, which isn't intending to damn him with faint praise (but, you know, Burgon, Long-Bailey, K Johnson et al..!), he'll probably just need to prove he'd partake in collective loyalty with the cabinet.

[oldfordie]

Liverpool Riverside had a huge surge in Green party voters this time round. Which accounts for the 23% drop in vote share.

There was never any doubt of Johnson losing and it's good that even if you combine the 3272 Reform meffs with the 1155 weirdos that voted conservative, they still wouldn't have beaten the greens.

I wouldn't assume the huge rise in Green supporters is down to boundary changes, this seems to have happened in most Labour safe seats. Dan Cardens Walton seat saw a similar rise in Green voters. point is the aim was to try and unseat Labour MPs regardless of where they stood. left or center left. policys. didn't matter, must be more to it than this in Kims seat.
A poster posted a graph pointing this out.

[Yorkykopite]

Jess Phillips MP

https://xcancel.com/LBC/status/1809910681983959081

[oldfordie]

Jess Phillips MP

https://xcancel.com/LBC/status/1809910681983959081

Few words that get to the heart of the problem and so easy to miss.
They didn't do this because they are Muslim, they did it because they are idiots.

[Yorkykopite]

Few words that get to the heart of the problem and so easy to miss.
They didn't do this because they are Muslim, they did it because they are idiots.

That's right. The comparison that needs to be drawn is with the English Defence League. Yobboes and losers, both.

[Sangria]

I wouldn't assume the huge rise in Green supporters is down to boundary changes, this seems to have happened in most Labour safe seats. Dan Cardens Walton seat saw a similar rise in Green voters. point is the aim was to try and unseat Labour MPs regardless of where they stood. left or center left. policys. didn't matter, must be more to it than this in Kims seat.
A poster posted a graph pointing this out.

Other than the few seats that Green won, most of the Green votes occurred in solidly red seats. Just as Reform voters aimed to hurt the Tories, so Green voters aimed to hurt Labour. It's the left's version of the argument that the main parties do nothing, so it's necessary to send a message. And it's illustrative just how few they are compared with Reform. Push that argument loud and clear, that the main parties do nothing for the people, and it's the far right who benefit the most.

[Sangria]

got to be a solid chance of a junior post (and more) in the not too distant future when some relevant posts come up, given he's had some limited shadow experience and has also resigned from the Socialist Campaign Group (so is more likely to maintain loyalty).

Was probably the SCG's most competent MP, which isn't intending to damn him with faint praise (but, you know, Burgon, Long-Bailey, K Johnson et al..!), he'll probably just need to prove he'd partake in collective loyalty with the cabinet.

McDonnell?

[classycarra]

McDonnell?

i could/should have added 'relatively untarnished'

[oldfordie]

Other than the few seats that Green won, most of the Green votes occurred in solidly red seats. Just as Reform voters aimed to hurt the Tories, so Green voters aimed to hurt Labour. It's the left's version of the argument that the main parties do nothing, so it's necessary to send a message. And it's illustrative just how few they are compared with Reform. Push that argument loud and clear, that the main parties do nothing for the people, and it's the far right who benefit the most.

Yeah, the graph showed this, Green voters spiked in red seats.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Few words that get to the heart of the problem and so easy to miss.
They didn't do this because they are Muslim, they did it because they are idiots.

These guys are just the physical manifestation. Ultimately even the local constituents, who were civil to her, still voted in large numbers against her over one issue on which she had gone above and beyond, none of which  counted when it mattered, leaving her scraping by. Why?

[gazzalfc]

I wouldn't assume the huge rise in Green supporters is down to boundary changes, this seems to have happened in most Labour safe seats. Dan Cardens Walton seat saw a similar rise in Green voters. point is the aim was to try and unseat Labour MPs regardless of where they stood. left or center left. policys. didn't matter, must be more to it than this in Kims seat.
A poster posted a graph pointing this out.

I think it's more down to tactical voting. If you are trying to unseat a Labour MP, you are not even going to being to try it in Liverpool. Riverside (and most of Liverpool) are the safest Labour seats in the country. You could put a cardboard cut-out of the labour sign and Liverpool would vote for it. So you had more freedom to make a vote for one of the other parties (Green in Riverside, L8 and Lark Lane way canvas very well).

Should also mention that turnout in Riverside was 45% so voter apathy was strong as well. 

[Statto Red]

I think it's more down to tactical voting. If you are trying to unseat a Labour MP, you are not even going to being to try it in Liverpool. Riverside (and most of Liverpool) are the safest Labour seats in the country. You could put a cardboard cut-out of the labour sign and Liverpool would vote for it. So you had more freedom to make a vote for one of the other parties (Green in Riverside, L8 and Lark Lane way canvas very well).

Should also mention that turnout in Riverside was 45% so voter apathy was strong as well.

I do think a combination of apathy & voter i.d helped with the low turnout in a lot of areas not just in Liverpool, voter i.d should be scrapped.