Topic: Labour Thread * No Gaza *

[Red Beret]

I think the leave campaign even bullshit people on this as well.
How there will be winners and losers with Brexit. amazing how many ways you can say Am alright Jack.

They told people that there would be winners and losers - then proceeded to tell each area that they would be one of the winners and it would be everyone else who was a loser.

[PaulF]

Do you think they have any rabbits to pull out of the hat on day 1? things we can look back and say 'this is what labour did'?
In particular things, that don't really cost money.  eg the separation of the BoE to manage inflation.

[Oh Campione]

Do you think they have any rabbits to pull out of the hat on day 1? things we can look back and say 'this is what labour did'?
In particular things, that don't really cost money.  eg the separation of the BoE to manage inflation.

You would hope so but I'm incredibly pessimistic about this new labour government.  Want the tories out more than anything but tough to be inspired by the new lot (hope I'm wrong!)

[gazzalfc]

Do you think they have any rabbits to pull out of the hat on day 1? things we can look back and say 'this is what labour did'?
In particular things, that don't really cost money.  eg the separation of the BoE to manage inflation.

I am really hoping for an Under-promise/Over-deliver approach.

I don't really want to see a them saying 'They left us no money' so *shrug shoulders*.

But considering the last 14 years. I'd take them getting through 100 days without a corruption scandal or someone fucking up

[lobsterboy]

I am really hoping for an Under-promise/Over-deliver approach.

I don't really want to see a them saying 'They left us no money' so *shrug shoulders*.

But considering the last 14 years. I'd take them getting through 100 days without a corruption scandal or someone fucking up

But at least we know what money is available will likely go where its required.
Rather than straight in the pockets of chums from Eton, family and donors.
You won't have rat face rishi taking it from the poorest areas to redistribute amongst the affluent.

[classycarra]

You would hope so but I'm incredibly pessimistic about this new labour government.  Want the tories out more than anything but tough to be inspired by the new lot (hope I'm wrong!)

Hard to type this without it reading as accusatory, but what do mean inspired?

What kind of inspiration do you look for from a political party?

[Yorkykopite]

Hard to type this without it reading as accusatory, but what do mean inspired?

What kind of inspiration do you look for from a political party?

I disagree with this Carra. I think it's important that enough people are inspired by a political party to make democracy a genuinely active, engaged thing. When Labour has been successful in the past it has tended to be because it has inspired civil society to become active - whether it was on the shop-floor via trade unions, or in the community via women's groups, youth clubs etc. The Conservative Party and the political right can afford to have an apathetic mass - they need it - but a reforming government needs movements from below and not just technocratic change from above.

[Dr. Beaker]

I'll be inspired by a government that is not afraid to tell the truth because they are proud of what they are trying to do, as opposed to a government that constantly and instinctively lied because they were ashamed of why they were doing what they did.

[oldfordie]

Brexit was won with Inspiration, the leave campaign inspired millions to believe in this country.
Ive heard left wingers argue the Tory party inspired more Blacks to enter politics.
Ive heard woman argue the Tory party inspire more woman to enter politics because they promote woman to high places.

Inspiring people to fight for something good is important but this argument can be abused in the wrong hands.

The number 1 inspiration I want to see from Labour is changing how the British public look at politics and politicians. I want people to feel inspired by this so we can really change the country for the better.

[classycarra]

I disagree with this Carra. I think it's important that enough people are inspired by a political party to make democracy a genuinely active, engaged thing. When Labour has been successful in the past it has tended to be because it has inspired civil society to become active - whether it was on the shop-floor via trade unions, or in the community via women's groups, youth clubs etc. The Conservative Party and the political right can afford to have an apathetic mass - they need it - but a reforming government needs movements from below and not just technocratic change from above.

I don't think I've set out my view on it yet, but you'd be right to think that I don't particularly look for that from a party. I do agree with you though, when it comes to having an engaged community, having people who engage with politics and vote, and feeling inspired by civil society.

On that note, ever since watching The Wire when it came out, I always get Curtis Mayfield in my head when I go out for a walk to vote (and I always go in person). There's something I can't put my finger on but love about the bustle.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Bi6DDa5cVMU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Bi6DDa5cVMU</a>

[oldfordie]

I don't think I've set out my view on it yet, but you'd be right to think that I don't particularly look for that from a party. I do agree with you though, when it comes to having an engaged community, having people who engage with politics and vote, and feeling inspired by civil society.

On that note, ever since watching The Wire when it came out, I always get Curtis Mayfield in my head when I go out for a walk to vote (and I always go in person). There's something I can't put my finger on but love about the bustle.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Bi6DDa5cVMU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Bi6DDa5cVMU</a>

Very inspiring.
Reality 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMMN7MDSgRE

[Oh Campione]

Hard to type this without it reading as accusatory, but what do mean inspired?

What kind of inspiration do you look for from a political party?

It does feel pretty accusatory...

I am a Labour party member and have been for 25 years (I'm 40 now) but what the current leadership are offering doesn't excite.  I have kids now and I don't see them offering as much as I'd like for young people.  What are they doing to solve the housing crisis and rents?  My wife works as a teacher in state schools, what are they going to do to help?  The VAT from private schools is a positive step but will that compensate for 14 years of cuts.  Pandering to people like JK Rowling and giving her the time of day on trans issues, there must be a way to address womens concerns while not discriminating, they are just giving toxic views oxygen.  Being non commital on immigration.  Wooly policy on energy, GB Energy not actually producing any energy itself so unsure how it will help reduce bills.  No commitment to real climate action

I could go on but that is a good start

[Red Beret]

As I see it, we have to start somewhere. I'd rather look to the future with hope under Labour than feel depressed and deflated before they've even taken office.

[Red-Soldier]

I disagree with this Carra. I think it's important that enough people are inspired by a political party to make democracy a genuinely active, engaged thing. When Labour has been successful in the past it has tended to be because it has inspired civil society to become active - whether it was on the shop-floor via trade unions, or in the community via women's groups, youth clubs etc. The Conservative Party and the political right can afford to have an apathetic mass - they need it - but a reforming government needs movements from below and not just technocratic change from above.

Exactly.  Most things start from the bottom up.

[Red-Soldier]

I'll be inspired by a government that is not afraid to tell the truth because they are proud of what they are trying to do, as opposed to a government that constantly and instinctively lied because they were ashamed of why they were doing what they did.

Do mean mean how Brexit has been such a disaster 

[Red Beret]

Jonathan Pie pulls no punches on Labour.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ptKNOK4eQ3c&amp;ab_channel=JonathanPie" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ptKNOK4eQ3c&amp;ab_channel=JonathanPie</a>

[Dr. Beaker]

Do mean mean how Brexit has been such a disaster 

When they get in they can hopefully go down that route and hopefully the LibDems will be the opposition too and force the issue a bit.

[Sangria]

It does feel pretty accusatory...

I am a Labour party member and have been for 25 years (I'm 40 now) but what the current leadership are offering doesn't excite.  I have kids now and I don't see them offering as much as I'd like for young people.  What are they doing to solve the housing crisis and rents?  My wife works as a teacher in state schools, what are they going to do to help?  The VAT from private schools is a positive step but will that compensate for 14 years of cuts.  Pandering to people like JK Rowling and giving her the time of day on trans issues, there must be a way to address womens concerns while not discriminating, they are just giving toxic views oxygen.  Being non commital on immigration.  Wooly policy on energy, GB Energy not actually producing any energy itself so unsure how it will help reduce bills.  No commitment to real climate action

I could go on but that is a good start

OTOH, every young person I've spoken to has said they're not voting because "they don't know enough (about politics)". I'm not telling them to vote in a particular way. I even point out they can spoil their ballot paper. But none of them are voting. Only older people are, among those I've talked to.

[classycarra]

It does feel pretty accusatory...

[Red-Soldier]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO9JSMZr9qk

[Yorkykopite]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO9JSMZr9qk

Very good. I'm glad Ramsay MacDonald is honoured there. It's taken a long time.

I vote Labour for a host of reasons. I guess the main one is gratitude.

[jillc]

That's a brilliant video.

[traustibm]

https://xcancel.com/jrc1921/status/1808569646456467898?s=46

Keir Starmer: “I am delighted to have the support and the backing of The S*n. I think that shows just how much this is a changed Labour Party, back in the service of working people.”

Wouldn’t for the life of me be able to vote for this ‘labour’ candidate.

[Skeeve]

Jonathan Pie pulls no punches on Labour.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ptKNOK4eQ3c&amp;ab_channel=JonathanPie" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ptKNOK4eQ3c&amp;ab_channel=JonathanPie</a>

His argument for not voting for Labour in '97 seems a bit off, Blair wasn't actually a warmonger at that point.

[Skeeve]

https://xcancel.com/jrc1921/status/1808569646456467898?s=46

Keir Starmer: “I am delighted to have the support and the backing of The S*n. I think that shows just how much this is a changed Labour Party, back in the service of working people.”

Wouldn’t for the life of me be able to vote for this ‘labour’ candidate.

I am fine with him acknowledging the support of that rag in general, although there was no need to be so effusive and he should have at least mentioned their divisive nature even if not outright calling them lying scum.

[Kennys Jacket]

His argument for not voting for Labour in '97 seems a bit off, Blair wasn't actually a warmonger at that point.

From day one I could see he was a disingenuous grinning Cheshire twat.

[Siannn.]

I am fine with him acknowledging the support of that rag in general, although there was no need to be so effusive and he should have at least mentioned their divisive nature even if not outright calling them lying scum.

Streeting was singing their praises and all. Putrid.

[Lisan Al Gaib]

https://xcancel.com/jrc1921/status/1808569646456467898?s=46

Keir Starmer: “I am delighted to have the support and the backing of The S*n. I think that shows just how much this is a changed Labour Party, back in the service of working people.”

Wouldn’t for the life of me be able to vote for this ‘labour’ candidate.

Unless you live in his constituency you're not voting for him.

[Red Beret]

I am fine with him acknowledging the support of that rag in general, although there was no need to be so effusive and he should have at least mentioned their divisive nature even if not outright calling them lying scum.

Don't think he means a word of it myself. It's naught but ego stroking. As Prime Minister, he'll have to shake hands with dictators and far right scumbags. Comes with the territory sadly. Political leaders aren't allowed to say what they really think.

[Red-Soldier]

His argument for not voting for Labour in '97 seems a bit off, Blair wasn't actually a warmonger at that point.

To be fair, he says the choice (today) is an obvious one.

[Libertine]

An interesting aspect of this if Labour do get a majority of >200.

Tories talking shite of course that this will lead to a very left wing, socialist government. In reality, there will be a LOT of new Labour (not New Labour) MPs in seats won from the Tories - seats that traditionally Tory and are fairly small "c" conservative in terms of the constituency profile and electorate. And probably most of these will have fairly small majorities.

It'll be in their interest of course that the new government is very effective, but not necessarily radical in a typical left-wing sense. They will have a tough fight to hold these in the next election, as the Tories probably won't really go much lower than they are now.

Combined with MPs from core Labour areas, and the MPs from the regained Red Wall, it will lead to some interesting dynamics in the PLP.

[Oh Campione]

An interesting aspect of this if Labour do get a majority of >200.

Tories talking shite of course that this will lead to a very left wing, socialist government. In reality, there will be a LOT of new Labour (not New Labour) MPs in seats won from the Tories - seats that traditionally Tory and are fairly small "c" conservative in terms of the constituency profile and electorate. And probably most of these will have fairly small majorities.

It'll be in their interest of course that the new government is very effective, but not necessarily radical in a typical left-wing sense. They will have a tough fight to hold these in the next election, as the Tories probably won't really go much lower than they are now.

Combined with MPs from core Labour areas, and the MPs from the regained Red Wall, it will lead to some interesting dynamics in the PLP.

They will end up with a very wide but shallow majority - quite a large number of seats with around 1000 majorities I reckon, could easily swing back.  Labour will end up holding rural seats they never have had before for example.  Will be challenging to govern

[killer-heels]

An interesting aspect of this if Labour do get a majority of >200.

Tories talking shite of course that this will lead to a very left wing, socialist government. In reality, there will be a LOT of new Labour (not New Labour) MPs in seats won from the Tories - seats that traditionally Tory and are fairly small "c" conservative in terms of the constituency profile and electorate. And probably most of these will have fairly small majorities.

It'll be in their interest of course that the new government is very effective, but not necessarily radical in a typical left-wing sense. They will have a tough fight to hold these in the next election, as the Tories probably won't really go much lower than they are now.

Combined with MPs from core Labour areas, and the MPs from the regained Red Wall, it will lead to some interesting dynamics in the PLP.

Those seats can be easily won back by the Tories in the next election. But thats why its all the more important that Labour use their majority and not just sit on their hands waiting two or three years for the economy to improve.

They have to kickstart house building even if that pisses off some constituencies and leads to them going back to Tory.

[Red Beret]

In 1997 Labour won many seats they thought they didn't have a prayer in, and likely didn't provide much in the way of resources to campaigners. They won them anyway. It'll be a similar situation now.

There will be a good 80 odd seats that will be immediate write offs, no matter how good or bad Labour do over the next 4/5 years. That's not a green light for Labour to start crapping out lefty policies because people are too stupid to know what's good for them though. There's going to be at least another 80 seats that CAN be defended, and that's where the five year fight will lie.

[DangerScouse]

 

Unless you live in his constituency you're not voting for him.

 

[JP!]

People not voting for Labour on the grounds of they strongly object to a particular policy (in the case of a couple of my friends its the trans rights issue and I can definitely see why) is more than fair. I have an issue with people who are voting elsewhere because 'it's a foregone conclusion' or 'they're all the same' because I would pretty much bet my life right now that 5 more years of the Tories would be more destructive to this country than anything Starmer can or can't do. That's the people I'd take aim at. I don't know what they expect to improve if they cause, say, a hung parliament.

[Yorkykopite]

If life is "the same for me" whether it's a Tory or a Labour government, then I congratulate you on your offshore bank account - and hope, fervently, that a Labour government does something to make your life a bit more miserable.

For those thinking of lodging a 'protest vote'....the only legitimate protest that can be made is against the Government not the Opposition. The Opposition have no power.

[classycarra]

For those thinking of lodging a 'protest vote'....the only legitimate protest that can be made is against the Government not the Opposition. The Opposition have no power.

it's so bizarre - though nothing new - hearing people explain their upset with the current Labour party not achieving the desires that a particular voter has of a Labour government while in opposition.
 
Not to mention, then going on and voting for the Greens - that party famous for all it's achievements..

[Red-Soldier]

If life is "the same for me" whether it's a Tory or a Labour government, then I congratulate you on your offshore bank account - and hope, fervently, that a Labour government does something to make your life a bit more miserable.

For those thinking of lodging a 'protest vote'....the only legitimate protest that can be made is against the Government not the Opposition. The Opposition have no power.

I've been critical of the manifesto, and aspirations.  However, I've still been out campaigning and urging people to vote Labour.  Locally, I'd love to see the back of my Tory MP, and the only candidate projected to have a chance, is the Labour one.

If it was the LD or Greens, I'd be voting for them.

[Yorkykopite]

I've been critical of the manifesto, and aspirations.  However, I've still been out campaigning and urging people to vote Labour.  Locally, I'd love to see the back of my Tory MP, and the only candidate projected to have a chance, is the Labour one.

If it was the LD or Greens, I'd be voting for them.

That's the way I see it.

No party is perfect. No manifesto ever includes everything you want. No party leader ever measures up. Every single person amongst us can find a good reason for, say, not voting Labour. It's easy, especially if you're sensitive and especially if you think politics should be about flattering your vanity.

But it's the general election. It's the one  time you should be obliged to ask 'Which party will help the country at large, including everybody who is not me?" The Tories tend to do well when a different question is posed ie "What's in it for me?"