Author Topic: Labour Thread * No Gaza *  (Read 216985 times)

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3480 on: May 16, 2024, 05:49:22 pm »
There were people throughout the 97-2010 period who complained that Labour were no different from the Tories, that they weren't radical enough, that the Red Flag was being diluted into a Pink Flag.

I had you in mind when I said it was enough for some ;)
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3481 on: May 16, 2024, 06:28:04 pm »
When thatcher won the leadership of the Tory party in 75 she quickly spent time surrounding herself with likeminded people like Keith Joseph ,airey neave ,whitelaw,Howe who believed the way forward was the monetary policy ,neo liberalism path .
This obviously meant smashing the very powerful unions ,destroying industries and changing the whole way of life as it was known at the time.this wasn’t going to happen overnight but that was what they decided to do come what may.
She spent time learning from others how to tame unions the way they had in other countries and spent time in New York with the mayor ,ed Koch and the way he refused to negotiate with them and the way he cracked down on them.
She did this with great  effect once she got in .the point I’m trying to make is the tories decided to pursue  an ideology which was in their interests and benefitted them and their supporters but only a select few not for the country as a whole and to hell with anyone who got in her way and didn’t like it .on they went regardless to the disastrous years we’ve had since if you did indeed get in the way.
It’s time now for labour to reverse this system we’ve put up with for nearly half a century.it was accepted and put up with as the way forward when the tories did it now it’s high time the country went in a different direction ideologically.

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3482 on: May 16, 2024, 06:45:07 pm »
When thatcher won the leadership of the Tory party in 75 she quickly spent time surrounding herself with likeminded people like Keith Joseph ,airey neave ,whitelaw,Howe who believed the way forward was the monetary policy ,neo liberalism path .
This obviously meant smashing the very powerful unions ,destroying industries and changing the whole way of life as it was known at the time.this wasn’t going to happen overnight but that was what they decided to do come what may.
She spent time learning from others how to tame unions the way they had in other countries and spent time in New York with the mayor ,ed Koch and the way he refused to negotiate with them and the way he cracked down on them.
She did this with great  effect once she got in .the point I’m trying to make is the tories decided to pursue  an ideology which was in their interests and benefitted them and their supporters but only a select few not for the country as a whole and to hell with anyone who got in her way and didn’t like it .on they went regardless to the disastrous years we’ve had since if you did indeed get in the way.
It’s time now for labour to reverse this system we’ve put up with for nearly half a century.it was accepted and put up with as the way forward when the tories did it now it’s high time the country went in a different direction ideologically.
The Ridley Report gave her the info to go after the Unions, I think what needs to be recognised is she had the blessing of the country to do it. I lived through the period, union member all my working life but the country had to change, unions had to change, I still hate it when they play politics,  I had tremendous respect for our local union reps.  it was all about winning for them, walking into traps was seen as stupid,  that's influenced me all my life,  don't get me wrong though ive never laid all the blame for the period on the unions and some of my opinions have been formed with hindsight, management had to change as well, terrible destructive attitude those days. they did just as much damage as the Unions but were never reigned in.
I think Thatcher was evil, she gave people good reasons to be selfish but this was the Tory ideology anyway, she was good arguing for it, she terrified the opposition when challenged in debate. am not going to praise her as honest, her son Mark shows her true colours but she at least thought the society she was creating would set the country up to compete in the modern world. she was right in some ways but very wrong in other ways, the country did become more efficient and competitive but we also became stagnated due to her economic policys.

Am always willing to change my opinion and have done on the average Tory party member, I did think they thought the same as me,  I thought this for decades, it was all about winning, they had no problem with all the Tory lies and fantasy promises, they knew about the lies but they were needed to win over the gullible  floating votes they needed to win power, how wrong I was, the last 8yrs has shown that many actually swallowed these lies hook line and sinker.
I agree over Thatcher etc did at least see the well off and companies interests as the most important thing, this all went when Brexit came along. it's not all down to the effect of leaving the EU, it's down to the Charlatans we had left in Parliament who were willing to lie and take us into the gutter for their own personal interests, I knew they would be bad but never this bad, Ive seen things happen I never thought would happen in the UK over the last 8yrs.


« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 07:13:05 pm by oldfordie »
You can tell his dad was a toolmaker. That’s an impressive cabinet he’s put together..

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3483 on: May 16, 2024, 07:08:49 pm »
The Ridley Report gave her the info to go after the Unions, I think what needs to be recognised is she had the blessing of the country to do it. I lived through the period, union member all my working life but the country had to change, unions had to change, I still hate it when they play politics,  I had tremendous respect for our local union reps.  it was all about wining for them

It wasn't all about wining. There was dining as well.
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3484 on: May 16, 2024, 07:21:54 pm »
It wasn't all about wining. There was dining as well.
:) those were the days, winning and wining at the same time.
You can tell his dad was a toolmaker. That’s an impressive cabinet he’s put together..

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3485 on: May 16, 2024, 07:32:42 pm »
:) those were the days, winning and wining at the same time.
And of course Everton whining without winning.
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Offline 9 kemlyn road

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3486 on: May 16, 2024, 08:36:49 pm »
The Ridley Report gave her the info to go after the Unions, I think what needs to be recognised is she had the blessing of the country to do it. I lived through the period, union member all my working life but the country had to change, unions had to change, I still hate it when they play politics,  I had tremendous respect for our local union reps.  it was all about winning for them, walking into traps was seen as stupid,  that's influenced me all my life,  don't get me wrong though ive never laid all the blame for the period on the unions and some of my opinions have been formed with hindsight, management had to change as well, terrible destructive attitude those days. they did just as much damage as the Unions but were never reigned in.
I think Thatcher was evil, she gave people good reasons to be selfish but this was the Tory ideology anyway, she was good arguing for it, she terrified the opposition when challenged in debate. am not going to praise her as honest, her son Mark shows her true colours but she at least thought the society she was creating would set the country up to compete in the modern world. she was right in some ways but very wrong in other ways, the country did become more efficient and competitive but we also became stagnated due to her economic policys.

Am always willing to change my opinion and have done on the average Tory party member, I did think they thought the same as me,  I thought this for decades, it was all about winning, they had no problem with all the Tory lies and fantasy promises, they knew about the lies but they were needed to win over the gullible  floating votes they needed to win power, how wrong I was, the last 8yrs has shown that many actually swallowed these lies hook line and sinker.
I agree over Thatcher etc did at least see the well off and companies interests as the most important thing, this all went when Brexit came along. it's not all down to the effect of leaving the EU, it's down to the Charlatans we had left in Parliament who were willing to lie and take us into the gutter for their own personal interests, I knew they would be bad but never this bad, Ive seen things happen I never thought would happen in the UK over the last 8yrs.
She did indeed have the blessing of the country ,the winter of discontent of 78-79 was an absolute godsend to thatcher and the tories they couldn’t believe their luck coming 6 months before the 79 election.the public were passed being pissed off with the unions and were dying for someone to reign them in.
In she comes on a crest of a wave with the country’s blessing vows to bring the unions down.in her first meeting at chequers with her new cabinet in place she tells them her plans for the unions and will deal with them and will take on the biggest and most powerful one ,the NUM but all in good time .
She bided her time and when the time was right provoked it into action at a time and place of her choosing.
The rest is history.
I was a notts miner in 84 ,started in 79 just like Maggie. I was on strike for 12 months there was around 3000 of us in notts that stayed out till the end out of around 28000 ,the majority of who never came out at all.
After that the unions were finished ,she had the green light to do whatever she wanted and it was open season on the ordinary working man and woman which she gleefully took full advantage of.
We’re still feeling the effects of it 40 years later .the unions changed ,they had to .but now they’ve become more responsible it’s top management and bosses who’ve been ,are irresponsible and need reigning in now .we need the the reverse of what happened after the winter of discontent and the 84 strike and a new ideology that favours everyone for the country’s benefit and ordinary people’s prosperity.

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3487 on: May 16, 2024, 08:56:57 pm »


I didn't know much about the miners strike in 84.  Watched a couple of really good programmes on Iplayer and 4 catchup, for the 40 year anniversary.

I agree we need a total transformation of society and an economy that isn't set up to syphon wealth from the average person, to the rich minority.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 08:59:32 pm by Red-Soldier »

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3488 on: May 16, 2024, 09:03:16 pm »
She did indeed have the blessing of the country ,the winter of discontent of 78-79 was an absolute godsend to thatcher and the tories they couldn’t believe their luck coming 6 months before the 79 election.the public were passed being pissed off with the unions and were dying for someone to reign them in.
In she comes on a crest of a wave with the country’s blessing vows to bring the unions down.in her first meeting at chequers with her new cabinet in place she tells them her plans for the unions and will deal with them and will take on the biggest and most powerful one ,the NUM but all in good time .
She bided her time and when the time was right provoked it into action at a time and place of her choosing.
The rest is history.
I was a notts miner in 84 ,started in 79 just like Maggie. I was on strike for 12 months there was around 3000 of us in notts that stayed out till the end out of around 28000 ,the majority of who never came out at all.
After that the unions were finished ,she had the green light to do whatever she wanted and it was open season on the ordinary working man and woman which she gleefully took full advantage of.
We’re still feeling the effects of it 40 years later .the unions changed ,they had to .but now they’ve become more responsible it’s top management and bosses who’ve been ,are irresponsible and need reigning in now .we need the the reverse of what happened after the winter of discontent and the 84 strike and a new ideology that favours everyone for the country’s benefit and ordinary people’s prosperity.
I suppose we all have different ways of looking at the same things. I think the Unions needed applauding in the years leading up to the Winter of discontent, it's the point I tried to make over a year ago when the present day strikes kicked off, the Winter of Discontent never came out of the Blue, it came after years of co-operation by unions and union members, what pissed me off and am sure many people today understand far more now is all the arguments to kerb inflation were about workers keeping wage demands well below inflation, that's fine for a year or so but not for years, that was the big difference I saw from todays strikes. todays strikes came immediately after inflation hit, I think it showed the Torys had lost the goodwill of the country. that's my view  :)
Realty was, your right, it did help Thatcher even though it was never about bringing down a Labour government. the grave diggers strike and the garbage on the streets was too much in the end, it even made me question whether everyone should have the right to strike, for another thread.
I think we did go through a period of Management attitude changes, towards the mid to late 80s and into the 90s, it still exists in a lot of company's now, problem is the whizz kids come in and make efficiency cuts to save money and it impresses some and we go back to where were in the past. it leads to resentment and lack of co-operation in the long run, maybe that's the problem today in a lot of government controlled industry, workers see a problem but allow it to happen as they love the thought of it dropping the idiots above them in it. am not criticising them if they do this, it's only natural. it was rife in the past. can't have it both ways, bosses show no consideration for their workforce then dont be surprised if they show no consideration for bosses, there were a few bosses I would have done anything for, only had to ask, others I would sit back and say nothing if I saw them cocking up. they still saw their job as being on your back rather than helping you when you had problems. idiots and bully's most of the time.
You can tell his dad was a toolmaker. That’s an impressive cabinet he’s put together..

Offline 9 kemlyn road

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3489 on: May 16, 2024, 09:25:32 pm »
I suppose we all have different ways of looking at the same things. I think the Unions needed applauding in the years leading up to the Winter of discontent, it's the point I tried to make over a year ago when the present day strikes kicked off, the Winter of Discontent never came out of the Blue, it came after years of co-operation by unions and union members, what pissed me off and am sure many people today understand far more now is all the arguments to kerb inflation were about workers keeping wage demands well below inflation, that's fine for a year or so but not for years, that was the big difference I saw from todays strikes. todays strikes came immediately after inflation hit, I think it showed the Torys had lost the goodwill of the country. that's my view  :)
Realty was, your right, it did help Thatcher even though it was never about bringing down a Labour government. the grave diggers strike and the garbage on the streets was too much in the end, it even made me question whether everyone should have the right to strike, for another thread.
I think we did go through a period of Management attitude changes, towards the mid to late 80s and into the 90s, it still exists in a lot of company's now, problem is the whizz kids come in and make efficiency cuts to save money and it impresses some and we go back to where were in the past. it leads to resentment and lack of co-operation in the long run, maybe that's the problem today in a lot of government controlled industry, workers see a problem but allow it to happen as they love the thought of it dropping the idiots above them in it. am not criticising them if they do this, it's only natural. it was rife in the past. can't have it both ways, bosses show no consideration for their workforce then dont be surprised if they show no consideration for bosses, there were a few bosses I would have done anything for, only had to ask, others I would sit back and say nothing if I saw them cocking up. they still saw their job as being on your back rather than helping you when you had problems. idiots and bully's most of the time.
Yes I well remember the reports of bodies lying in morgues unburied due to the gravediggers being on strike then the rubbish piled high in the streets as the bin men came out so yes the unions certain didn’t garner much sympathy and really it seemed like a union pile on to see who was next to come out.
The public were just absolutely fed up so it was a perfect storm for thatcher and the tories and they took full advantage of it.the workers of course had settled for under inflation wages for years so yes they were fed up too but mood of the public in general was completely against them.
Strangely enough just a few months earlier in autumn 78 callaghans government was doing well in the opinion polls and it looked very likely that he was going to announce an election at the party conference that autumn but he instead quoted the song from a musical” there was I waiting at the church” meaning there wasn’t going to be one ,finishing with the line “ my wife won’t let me “ to much cheers and applause.
Always wonder the way things would have turned out if he’d gone to the polls and indeed won .
Sliding doors moment

Offline 9 kemlyn road

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3490 on: May 16, 2024, 09:46:30 pm »
I didn't know much about the miners strike in 84.  Watched a couple of really good programmes on Iplayer and 4 catchup, for the 40 year anniversary.

I agree we need a total transformation of society and an economy that isn't set up to syphon wealth from the average person, to the rich minority.
To be honest with you I hate watching those things about the 84 strike not because we lost but it’s all the same shit ,just a montage of images from the time with the voice over doing the ,it was a clash of the giants (picture of scar ghill,then picture of thatcher all to the sound track of two tribes by Frankie goes to Hollywood.
I vividly remember that time and it just brings home how naive we were .they laid traps and we jumped willingly into them.
I believed in what we were fighting for and who against but we fought the whole might of the British establishment who threw everything they could at us .they had all sections of the media,the police ,judiciary ,special branch ,MI5 or 6 and as much money as they could throw at it.
I read somewhere it cost the government over 3 billion pounds to beat us on top of everything else they used .
All to push through their ideology.there’s no boundaries for them or limits to achieve their aims.
I’m proud that I took part in .She called us the enemy within ,that’s a badge of honour I’ll take to my grave .

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3491 on: May 16, 2024, 09:53:02 pm »
To be honest with you I hate watching those things about the 84 strike not because we lost but it’s all the same shit ,just a montage of images from the time with the voice over doing the ,it was a clash of the giants (picture of scar ghill,then picture of thatcher all to the sound track of two tribes by Frankie goes to Hollywood.
I vividly remember that time and it just brings home how naive we were .they laid traps and we jumped willingly into them.
I believed in what we were fighting for and who against but we fought the whole might of the British establishment who threw everything they could at us .they had all sections of the media,the police ,judiciary ,special branch ,MI5 or 6 and as much money as they could throw at it.
I read somewhere it cost the government over 3 billion pounds to beat us on top of everything else they used .
All to push through their ideology.there’s no boundaries for them or limits to achieve their aims.
I’m proud that I took part in .She called us the enemy within ,that’s a badge of honour I’ll take to my grave .

They were & still are sick individuals.
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3492 on: May 16, 2024, 10:00:16 pm »
Zero mention of housing at their event today. Was that another thing he was pretending to care about fixing to get votes or what?
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3493 on: May 16, 2024, 10:04:16 pm »
Zero mention of housing at their event today. Was that another thing he was pretending to care about fixing to get votes or what?

Would be a stupid fucking ploy, you know, considering nobody has voted yet.  ;D
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3494 on: May 16, 2024, 10:12:36 pm »
Would be a stupid fucking ploy, you know, considering nobody has voted yet.  ;D
It would, so why was he banging on about it and now doesn't mention it?
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3495 on: May 16, 2024, 10:18:43 pm »
It would, so why was he banging on about it and now doesn't mention it?

Because you don't have to mention everything in every statement.
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3496 on: May 16, 2024, 10:26:15 pm »
It was very wishy washy. Probably just keeping the waters calm. As said before it's not this election that he really needs to win. Maybe he's setting expectations so that there isn't a huge backlash at the next election.

--edit-- I'd anticipate a shift in what's happening in Ukraine in the course of his first term. How that affects things is impossible to predict.
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3497 on: May 16, 2024, 10:29:20 pm »
Quite impressive (actually highly unusual today) that Starmer spoke without a script and just had brown bullet points on his autocue
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3498 on: May 16, 2024, 10:39:28 pm »
To be honest with you I hate watching those things about the 84 strike not because we lost but it’s all the same shit ,just a montage of images from the time with the voice over doing the ,it was a clash of the giants (picture of scar ghill,then picture of thatcher all to the sound track of two tribes by Frankie goes to Hollywood.
I vividly remember that time and it just brings home how naive we were .they laid traps and we jumped willingly into them.
I believed in what we were fighting for and who against but we fought the whole might of the British establishment who threw everything they could at us .they had all sections of the media,the police ,judiciary ,special branch ,MI5 or 6 and as much money as they could throw at it.
I read somewhere it cost the government over 3 billion pounds to beat us on top of everything else they used .
All to push through their ideology.there’s no boundaries for them or limits to achieve their aims.
I’m proud that I took part in .She called us the enemy within ,that’s a badge of honour I’ll take to my grave .
Am not sure there was much you can do about it when someone picks a fight with you. I know we felt it many times, it sounds like a conspiracy theory but British management were terrible, they orchestrated strikes to cover up their incompetency, I think the National Union reps are in a different class today when it comes to quick thinking defending their position, unions would have been slaughtered in the past for what happened last year, the National reps today were superb, mind you they were given the opportunity to defend themselves as well, we call the media for everything today but they were worse in many ways back then, not because the government had got at them, more about them being clueless right wingers who believed every word management told them. Bob Grieves off Granada reports used to do my head in, Shaking his head in disgust every time he read out news of a strike, he never had a clue on what was happening during those years.  management orchestrating a strike never crossed his mind. they always picked a time when sales had slumped, lay offs showed they couldn't sell product or unable to produce product. sack a few workers and they have a strike for a few weeks, place all the blame on the strikers, happened all the time during that period. I know this sounds far fetched to some, it did to some even back then but like the miners we knew when trouble was coming when the car parks on Liverpool air port became full of unsold cars. we even talked about it days/weeks before it happened.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 10:41:25 pm by oldfordie »
You can tell his dad was a toolmaker. That’s an impressive cabinet he’s put together..

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3499 on: May 16, 2024, 10:46:07 pm »
I think he's going for the 'under promising and over delivering' strategy.

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3500 on: May 17, 2024, 08:22:34 am »
Am not sure there was much you can do about it when someone picks a fight with you. I know we felt it many times, it sounds like a conspiracy theory but British management were terrible, they orchestrated strikes to cover up their incompetency, I think the National Union reps are in a different class today when it comes to quick thinking defending their position, unions would have been slaughtered in the past for what happened last year, the National reps today were superb, mind you they were given the opportunity to defend themselves as well, we call the media for everything today but they were worse in many ways back then, not because the government had got at them, more about them being clueless right wingers who believed every word management told them. Bob Grieves off Granada reports used to do my head in, Shaking his head in disgust every time he read out news of a strike, he never had a clue on what was happening during those years.  management orchestrating a strike never crossed his mind. they always picked a time when sales had slumped, lay offs showed they couldn't sell product or unable to produce product. sack a few workers and they have a strike for a few weeks, place all the blame on the strikers, happened all the time during that period. I know this sounds far fetched to some, it did to some even back then but like the miners we knew when trouble was coming when the car parks on Liverpool air port became full of unsold cars. we even talked about it days/weeks before it happened.
Yea she chose her moment carefully.it was a long time in the planning so they knew exactly what they were doing.
She was riding high in the opinion polls off the back of the falklands battle.won a landslide in the 83 election of the back of it and waited till the spring of 84 ,made sure coal stocks were high as Everest so there’d be no blackouts and the summer months ahead so another perfect storm.
Scargill,for all his faults ,knew it was a a fight to the death and called out her lies of 20 pits to close saying it was going to be all of them but was dismissed as scaremongering by the media so already they were doing their job .
It was a strike that was planned and engineered for years ,not just by management but a British government wilfully destroying one of its major and vital industries.
As you said many firms and industries caused strikes to happen in those days but of course the media portrayed the un ions and strikers as idle ,lazy,shirkers just out for trouble .journalists without a clue not bothered about giving both sides to the story fuelled these lies .hence it’s become known as fact that the 70s were all about union dinosaurs with too much power holding the country to ransome ,never the inept bosses who in many cases were the cause of the troubles.
The union leaders today are great ,they know how to play the media ,how to conduct themselves and don’t fall into the traps that are set for them,mick lynch being a fine example to the point you hardly see him on tv now as the tv people know they can’t beat him ,he just makes fools of them while getting his point across.so they just don’t show him.the public are on his side something we didn’t have .
The country needs a whole new radical way of dealing with management and workers .we need the German or Japanese model of everyone around the table pulling and working together for the common cause to make the said industry/company work.the Germans and Japanese had to start from scratch after the war with their countries destroyed and very quickly by working together became hugely successful.and everyone was winner .
This is what I’m getting at when I say there should be a completely new ideology to replace the failed one of Thatcherisms trickle down policy ,it’s failed so this time it’s industry leaders  and management who need to adapt and learn a newway for everyone’s benefit.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 08:27:03 am by 9 kemlyn road »

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3501 on: May 17, 2024, 09:36:42 am »
Quite impressive (actually highly unusual today) that Starmer spoke without a script and just had brown bullet points on his autocue
I've read that several times, and nope, I have no idea what that means. presumably, a typo!?
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3502 on: May 17, 2024, 10:19:41 am »
I've read that several times, and nope, I have no idea what that means. presumably, a typo!?

Brown bullets are what you fire from your arse  ;)

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3503 on: May 17, 2024, 11:57:27 am »
Yea she chose her moment carefully.it was a long time in the planning so they knew exactly what they were doing.
She was riding high in the opinion polls off the back of the falklands battle.won a landslide in the 83 election of the back of it and waited till the spring of 84 ,made sure coal stocks were high as Everest so there’d be no blackouts and the summer months ahead so another perfect storm.
Scargill,for all his faults ,knew it was a a fight to the death and called out her lies of 20 pits to close saying it was going to be all of them but was dismissed as scaremongering by the media so already they were doing their job .
It was a strike that was planned and engineered for years ,not just by management but a British government wilfully destroying one of its major and vital industries.
As you said many firms and industries caused strikes to happen in those days but of course the media portrayed the un ions and strikers as idle ,lazy,shirkers just out for trouble .journalists without a clue not bothered about giving both sides to the story fuelled these lies .hence it’s become known as fact that the 70s were all about union dinosaurs with too much power holding the country to ransome ,never the inept bosses who in many cases were the cause of the troubles.
The union leaders today are great ,they know how to play the media ,how to conduct themselves and don’t fall into the traps that are set for them,mick lynch being a fine example to the point you hardly see him on tv now as the tv people know they can’t beat him ,he just makes fools of them while getting his point across.so they just don’t show him.the public are on his side something we didn’t have .
The country needs a whole new radical way of dealing with management and workers .we need the German or Japanese model of everyone around the table pulling and working together for the common cause to make the said industry/company work.the Germans and Japanese had to start from scratch after the war with their countries destroyed and very quickly by working together became hugely successful.and everyone was winner .
This is what I’m getting at when I say there should be a completely new ideology to replace the failed one of Thatcherisms trickle down policy ,it’s failed so this time it’s industry leaders  and management who need to adapt and learn a newway for everyone’s benefit.
I think the UK public/left are different from the rest of the world, we are our own worst enemy a lot of the time. you look at Georgia, fighting to become a part of the EU as they understand the benefits of being a part of the biggest trading block in the world, fighting with everything to be a part of Europe, then look at the UK, the d/heads in this country seemed to think we were something special, better than the rest of the world as we had the right to be a rich and powerful nation, I said that to a leave supporter 8 yrs ago, how he thinks what we have now is a right, we have the right to be rich, it's not a right, we have taken a massive step backwards in these last 8yrs, look at us now. we threw that all away so nonchalantly, now the Torys are coming after the ECHR benefits, we can only hope the d/heads dont throw that away just as casually as they did with the EU.
It's going to take many years to recover from the damage of this Tory government but I do see some really positives signs ive never seen before in the past.  I wouldn't put it all down to Starmers Labour, union leaders like Mick Lynch changed attitudes, shame he  and his union played politics, they helped to put us in this mess, I hope they learn from it. the government just went too far this time, they have been a education for 10s millions that will hopefully stay with them for life.

I agree with workers having a say on the board for feedback from the shop floor.
Some Management have to change how they view themselves and the workforce.
I think that's the big difference from the attitude of management of the 60s-80s, Managers saw their jobs as getting on the backs of workers rather than helping them with problems that stopped them doing their job better, that used to really piss me off, it was why I was quiet happy to stand back and let some of these arsehole managers cock up, you were more likely to get into a angry argument from them when you mentioned problems. get on with it and stop moaning attitude, other managers would listen and tell you they would do their best to sort it out and they did most times. my reaction to them was co-operation, things improved dramatically. am afraid I see signs of those bad managers returning especially in Nationalised industry's. it may take years but maybe the penny will drop, it really doesn't matter whose fault it is, workers or management when the gates shut for the last time and everybody's out of a job.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 12:38:36 pm by oldfordie »
You can tell his dad was a toolmaker. That’s an impressive cabinet he’s put together..

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3504 on: May 17, 2024, 12:43:55 pm »


I agree with workers having a say on the board for feedback from the shop floor.
Some Management have to change how they view themselves and the workforce.
I think that's the big difference from the attitude of management of the 60s-80s, Managers saw their jobs as getting on the backs of workers rather than helping them with problems that stopped them doing their job better, that used to really piss me off, it was why I was quiet happy to stand back and let some of these arsehole managers cock up, you were more likely to get into a angry argument from them when you mentioned problems. get on with it and stop moaning attitude, other managers would listen and tell you they would do their best to sort it out and they did most times. my reaction to them was co-operation, things improved dramatically. am afraid I see signs of those bad managers returning especially in Nationalised industry's. it may take years but maybe the penny will drop, it really doesn't matter whose fault it is, workers or management when the gates shut for the last time and everybody's out of a job.

What makes you say that?

You were praising Thatcher, a few posts ago, and now attacking nationalised industries....

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3505 on: May 17, 2024, 12:58:03 pm »
John Woodcock has proven to be a right bellend, which he was when he was a Labour MP as well.

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3506 on: May 17, 2024, 01:08:50 pm »
John Woodcock has proven to be a right bellend, which he was when he was a Labour MP as well.

UK government adviser on disruptive protest accused of conflict of interest

Quote
John Woodcock, whose review proposes bans for protest groups, has lobbying links to firms in arms and fossil fuel sectors[/b]

Activists have accused the government’s independent adviser on political violence of a conflict of interest, after it emerged that he had lobbying links to companies that would benefit from curbs to protesting.

John Woodcock, formerly a Labour MP and now a crossbench peer, has prepared a review of “far-left” involvement in disruptive protest, which includes activism against climate change and war. At the same time, he has been chairing and advising lobby groups representing arms manufacturers and fossil fuel firms.

Woodcock’s review is due to be released next week, more than three years after it was commissioned. Over the weekend he said that, among about 40 recommendations, it would propose bans on at least two protest groups, naming Just Stop Oil, the climate activist campaign, and Palestine Action, which acts against arms companies that supply Israel’s military.

The organisations could be proscribed, which would restrict their ability to raise funds and their right to assembly in the UK. The Guardian has yet to see a copy of the report.

Woodcock’s entries in the Lords’ register of interests show he is paid to act as the chair of the Purpose Business Coalition, an organisation run by the PR and lobbying firm Crowne Associates, which counts the oil company BP and the arms company Leonardo among its clients.

The register also shows he is a paid adviser to Rud Pedersen Public Affairs, another lobbying firm, which acts for Glencore, a Swiss mining company with interests in coal, and Enwell Energy, which describes itself as a “a highly focused oil and gas business”.

All could theoretically welcome restrictions on protest against their operations. Leonardo, in particular, has been subject to a persistent campaign of protest by Palestine Action, including occupations of its factories during which equipment was smashed, and graffitiing of the entrance to its London HQ.

Huda Ammori, an activist with Palestine Action who helped uncover the links, said: “Whilst our government remains complicit in the ongoing Gaza genocide, it is our duty to take direct action to halt the production of weapons in Britain which is being used against the Palestinian people.

“It is a sham for the government to try and claim Lord Walney is an ‘independent’ adviser.”

Tim Crosland, the director of Plan B, a climate litigation group, said that Walney’s recommendations were “not surprising, since they serve the vested corporate interests he represents”.

A spokesperson for Just Stop Oil said: “Last week the government’s climate strategy was declared unlawful for the second time. The same week they licensed 31 new oil projects. Our government has been bought by the fossil fuel lobby and arms dealers. It is increasingly clear that it is they who are the real criminals.”

Responding to the accusations, Woodcock said: “Over the three years that I have conducted this review I have consistently applied an objective standard and sought a wide range of perspectives, including through a formal call for evidence and analysis of public opinion through polling exercises.

“I now look forward to the publication of the independent analysis and recommendations in my extensive report. My non-parliamentary interests are declared as required and past positions held are a matter of record.”

Woodcock was a Labour MP until 2018, when he resigned from the party during an investigation into claims he had sent inappropriate text messages to a female aide, which he denied. He called for voters to back the Conservatives in 2019 and the following year, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson made him a life peer.

Shortly after, he was appointed the government’s “independent adviser on political violence and disruption” and commissioned to write a review on protest in the wake of the Extinction Rebellion, Black Lives Matter and anti-lockdown protests that had roiled the UK before and during the Covid pandemic.

Although it was nominally an investigation into “an increase in activity and prominence amongst far-right, far-left and other political groups”, he told the Telegraph at the time his focus would be on what he described as “progressive extremism”.

There was a blind spot on such activities, he said, because they were “carried out in the name of progressive causes to which the political establishment and large majority of the population have great sympathy, like climate change and racial injustice”.

Woodcock said he submitted his 100,000-word report, entitled Protecting our Democracy from Coercion, to officials in December, after a delay so he could take into account mass protests in London calling for Israel to end its campaign in Gaza.

In recent months he has trailed several of its recommendations to the press, including bans on face masks on protests, new police powers to end protests near parliament and MPs’ offices, and protest exclusion zones around arms factories and fossil fuel infrastructure.

But most controversial among its proposals are suggestions that the government enact a form of proscription on groups that regularly break the law as part of their protest strategies.

“The government should introduce a mechanism to restrict the activity of organisations which have a policy of using criminal offences … to influence government or public debate,” Woodcock’s report says, according to the Daily Mail.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/17/government-adviser-on-disruptive-protest-accused-of-conflict-of-interest

I wonder what Labour's approach will be, to these groups....?

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3507 on: May 17, 2024, 01:15:26 pm »
What makes you say that?

You were praising Thatcher, a few posts ago, and now attacking nationalised industries....
I should have said ex nationalised industry's, take the railways. are the management interested in solving workers grievances. the attacks on NHS workers for long waiting lists, all this breeds resentment.
This is happening in many industries today, it led to the Post office scandal, terrible attitude by old fashioned incompetent management, at the end of the day does it matter whose at fault when the PO ends up a shadow of it's past.

Can you explain why you said I praised Thatcher ? I think I can make more sound arguments to prove why Thatcher was evil than many others, I was hurt badly by her unfair nasty policys in all stages of my life, I think I went out of my way to say am not praising Thatcher as arguing  the country's attituded had to change to survive could be taken as saying Thatcher was right to attack the Unions. ive actually gone into more detail on this in the past but never bothered in my last few posts as it would take pages to explain, it wasn't Thatcher's union laws that brought about the change in attitude by the UK worker/management, it was the threat of the dole that brought this change so anyone who thinks Thatcher should be praised for it is wrong. ive also explained whatever Thatchers faults she did think she was doing the best for the country in the long run, again ive gone into detail on this in the past, basically she and the Torys of the past believed any Tory government is best for the country, this Tory government don't think like this, it's not about the Tory government being best for the country as they don't give a shit about the country.


« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 01:19:09 pm by oldfordie »
You can tell his dad was a toolmaker. That’s an impressive cabinet he’s put together..

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3508 on: May 17, 2024, 01:15:42 pm »
UK government adviser on disruptive protest accused of conflict of interest


I wonder what Labour's approach will be, to these groups....?

He has indicated that he already has the ear of Yvette Cooper.
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3509 on: May 17, 2024, 01:22:05 pm »
I should have said ex nationalised industry's, take the railways. are the management interested in solving workers grievances. the attacks on NHS workers for long waiting lists, all this breeds resentment.
This is happening in many industries today, it led to the Post office scandal, terrible attitude by old fashioned incompetent management, at the end of the day does it matter whose at fault when the PO ends up a shadow of it's past.

Can you explain why you said I praised Thatcher ? I think I can make more sound arguments to prove why Thatcher was evil than many others, I was hurt badly by her unfair nasty policys in all stages of my life, I think I went out of my way to say am not praising Thatcher as arguing  the country's attituded had to change to survive could be taken as saying Thatcher was right to attack the Unions. ive actually gone into more detail on this in the past but never bothered in my last few posts as it would take pages to explain, it wasn't Thatcher's union laws that brought about the change in attitude by the UK worker/management, it was the threat of the dole that brought this change so anyone thinks Thatcher should be praised for it is wrong. ive also explained whatever Thatchers faults she did think she was doing the best for the country in the long run, again ive gone into detail on this in the past, basically she and the Torys  of the past believed any Tory government is best for the country, this Tory government don't think like this, it's not about the Tory government being best for the country as they don't give a shit about the country.

Am saying workers have raised problems which are not addressed by management, they lay the blame on the workers,

Apologies.  I don't want to be argumentative.  You did say she was evil, but also said that she brought the country forward.  She did have a plan, I give you that.  We're still reaping the benefits of it, now.  Apart from not being in the EU, of course.

I think there are/have been bad managers everywhere, not just in nationalised industries.  A lot of the time, a person doesn't leave their job cause they dislike it, they leave their manager, due to disliking them.

The public sector does have some issues with it's culture and ways of thinking.




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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3510 on: May 17, 2024, 01:36:36 pm »
Apologies.  I don't want to be argumentative.  You did say she was evil, but also said that she brought the country forward.  She did have a plan, I give you that.  We're still reaping the benefits of it, now.  Apart from not being in the EU, of course.

I think there are/have been bad managers everywhere, not just in nationalised industries.  A lot of the time, a person doesn't leave their job cause they dislike it, they leave their manager, due to disliking them.

The public sector does have some issues with it's culture and ways of thinking.
:) :thumbup
it is complicated and I know some points can be taken the wrong way if they aren't explained well. yeah I think all the media coverage on industrial disputes has been focused on ex nationalised industry's but as you say theres bad mangers everywhere, it just annoys me why anyone at the top thinks having nasty bully managers helps the company in the long run, the opposite happens, lack of communication in problems by workers as they fear raising these problems knowing they will take a lot of aggro. we have to be efficient and competitive of course but they can still get that message across without being nasty and inconciderate.

You can tell his dad was a toolmaker. That’s an impressive cabinet he’s put together..

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3511 on: May 17, 2024, 04:32:01 pm »
John Woodcock has proven to be a right bellend, which he was when he was a Labour MP as well.

Listened to him on News Agents. Christ...so very clear that he's bought and paid for.

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3512 on: May 17, 2024, 05:04:09 pm »
What makes you say that?

You were praising Thatcher, a few posts ago, and now attacking nationalised industries....

He’s attacking the mangers of nationalised industries, not industries themselves.
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3513 on: May 17, 2024, 05:21:52 pm »
He’s attacking the mangers of nationalised industries, not industries themselves.

Away with the mangers, too glib to be heads.
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3514 on: May 18, 2024, 07:56:50 am »

Because I’m a total c*nt?
Because I’m a smug self satisfied middle class person who doesn’t really get affect by it anyway?
Because I couldn’t give two shits about the poor or the needy?
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3515 on: May 18, 2024, 08:08:15 am »

Because I’m a total c*nt?
Because I’m a smug self satisfied middle class person who doesn’t really get affect by it anyway?
Because I couldn’t give two shits about the poor or the needy?

He’s one of that gang who want permanent opposition so they don’t have to actually make the hard decisions just pontificate about what they would do in their own personal Shangrila.

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3516 on: May 18, 2024, 08:38:40 am »
To put some content to the headline, Jones is asking for a hung parliament as he sees it as a route to PR

This is how the article starts
It hardly needs to be said that a renewed mandate for Tory rule will be an obvious catastrophe for the country. No government in British democratic history can be considered such a devastating failure, whether on objective measures – weak growth, an unprecedented squeeze in living standards, declining life expectancy and crisis-ridden public services


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/17/hung-parliament-tories-keir-starmer-majority
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3517 on: May 18, 2024, 09:07:41 am »
To put some content to the headline, Jones is asking for a hung parliament as he sees it as a route to PR

This is how the article starts
It hardly needs to be said that a renewed mandate for Tory rule will be an obvious catastrophe for the country. No government in British democratic history can be considered such a devastating failure, whether on objective measures – weak growth, an unprecedented squeeze in living standards, declining life expectancy and crisis-ridden public services


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/17/hung-parliament-tories-keir-starmer-majority

It also says in bolded yellow, that the article is over a year old.

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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3518 on: May 18, 2024, 09:29:58 am »
It also says in bolded yellow, that the article is over a year old.

Fairplay Sherlock didnt notice that

The date was 17/5/23  so a year ago yesterday.  Probably not a coincidence that its appeared on Tepids feed.
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Re: Labour Thread * No Gaza *
« Reply #3519 on: May 18, 2024, 09:34:35 am »
I'd prefer a hung parliament if it means forcing LAbour into PR. Does that make me a total c*nt?