Poll

How do we think the UK Will do - Assuming Brexit happens (Hard or Soft..)

Things will be brilliant from the word go and will get better every week!
Things will start off a bit dodgy, but over time things gradually improve and get better
Things will start off dodgy and remain that way for the forseeable future
Things will start off dodgy and then decline slightly with things getting a bit worse
Complete clusterfuck from start to finish

Author Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)  (Read 869758 times)

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4800 on: May 20, 2017, 01:37:33 pm »
there is a problem with that theory imo.
To create other jobs off the back of losing the city we would need to attract foreign brains....we cant rely on trying to compete with china india and other nations who can manufacture for cheaper.
the only way is to invent...be a market leader.....or be competetive price wise.

we are lucky to be the centre of europe atm on finances.
it helps balance of trade.
it helps keep debt to gdp below the 100% mark.....this is the major thing.

take it away and dont do the above we will be in deep shit.

who is gonna bail us out?

Is it gonna be the eu?..woudl be ironic.
Yeah,it goes back to the Thatcher days, people have long standing opinions and theyve never reconsidered those opinions now realty is facing us and other far more important considerations have to be taken into account.
Thatcher did a lot of harm but allowing the city to go wont give us an incentive to create more jobs.
As you say jobs will only be created when we can trade competitive and that works both ways, importing and exporting.
The big problem we face is the city is going as we speak, the foreign deals are all pie in the sky right now, a long way off in the future. many of those big trade deals wont be signed till we have a deal with the EU. we may well drop out the EU but carry on negotiations for many years to come. I dont think anyone knows how this will play out but if people think we will leave in 2 yrs and then start signing  big deals straight away then I think there wrong.
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Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4801 on: May 21, 2017, 01:18:38 pm »
This is a very good article on the looming food crisis triggered by Brexit and the government stance on immigration. (My emphasis).

Quote
While Ian Wright is good at the diplomatic phrase, others feel less constrained. In the months running up to the Brexit referendum, Tim Lang, professor of food policy at London’s City University, co-authored a briefing paper on Britain’s dependency on EU member states for its food. It dealt in detail with seasonal labour from the EU. He can be forgiven for wondering why he bothered. “The civil service is dispirited and uncertain of what they’re doing because they haven’t been given any signals,” Lang says now. “There’s not a bleep about food policy coming from ministers. There has been a stunning silence from Andrea Leadsom, the Defra minister, on this matter of national importance. Basically, if on March 31, 2019, migrant labour is not sorted the food system is fucked.” And then he says, “I hope those who voted Brexit and who still want to eat British are prepared to go to Lincolnshire in winter to pick vegetables.” Or as Wright puts it, “Food is at the heart of national security. If you can’t feed a country you haven’t got a country.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/21/brexit-coming-food-crisis-seasonal-migrant-labour-eu
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4802 on: May 21, 2017, 03:01:34 pm »
Brexit negotiations set to start on 19 June

The EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, has pencilled in 19 June for the first formal day of talks with Britain about its withdrawal from the European Union, in what are being billed as the most important negotiations in the country’s history.

That highly symbolic morning, Barnier will face whoever is the British Brexit secretary after the election for the first day of an arduous 15 months of negotiations to hammer out the terms of the UK’s exit.

It is understood that the European commission’s Brexit taskforce, led by Barnier, shared the proposed date with key figures in Brussels last week.

EU officials are yet to discuss any logistics with the UK, however, due to an ongoing row with Theresa May’s government over its blocking of a mid-term review of the union’s budget.

Brussels cancelled plans for behind-the-scenes “pre-talk talks” to discuss how the negotiations could be handled in anger last month when Britain vetoed the shuffling of the EU budget to priority areas, such as the migration crisis.

The British government claimed pre-election purdah rules blocked any key decisions being made before the general election on 8 June, enraging the commission, whose plans are now stalled.

The lack of contact between the two negotiating teams is the reason Brussels intends to ringfence an additional week after the election result for further informal preparations before the negotiations start in earnest.

The first meeting between Barnier and the Brexit secretary is likely to be held in the recently-opened Europa building, a £283m transparent structure housing a large glass egg where key EU meeting rooms are accommodated. Its unworldly appearance has led to the building being nicknamed the Space Egg.

The EU wants negotiations to be divided into four-week cycles, each focused on a key issue. Week one would involve political preparation, followed by a week where documents would be disclosed by both sides.

The third week would see Barnier and the Brexit secretary sitting down to talk, mainly in Brussels but also, potentially, in London. In the final week, Barnier would report on the results of the negotiations to the 27 member states and the European parliament.

The EU’s negotiator wants to reach agreement on citizens’ rights, the UK’s divorce bill and on the border of Ireland in a first phase of talks he hopes will be concluded by the end of 2017.

The European council, whose members comprise the 27 EU states, will decide by consensus on whether sufficient progress has been made for talks to progress, according to the commission’s negotiating directives, to be signed off by EU ministers next Monday.

If it is deemed appropriate by the EU 27 leaders, Barnier will spend from December 2017 to the spring of 2018 negotiating the scope of a future trade deal with the UK. He will also discuss the transitional arrangements necessary for the period between the UK leaving the single market and the customs union in March 2019, and any EU-UK trade deal being finalised and ratified some years ahead.

Barnier’s timetable allows for the approval of a withdrawal deal, including transitional arrangements, by EU institutions and member states.

Only two years of withdrawal negotiations are allowed under article 50 of the Lisbon treaty. May notified the European council of the UK’s decision to leave the EU on 29 March this year, nine months after last June’s referendum.

However, the commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, fears Barnier’s timetable will be derailed. David Davis, the current Brexit secretary, has already warned that the EU’s stubborn refusal to talk about a trade deal at the same time as the divorce terms, including the estimated €100bn divorce bill, “will be the row of the summer”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/19/brexit-uk-eu-talks-start-19-june

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4803 on: May 21, 2017, 07:01:08 pm »
Enjoy the Championship, leavers.....



Offline PaulF

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4804 on: May 23, 2017, 10:42:16 pm »
Fucking hell they are even 6th on that table


--edit-- dont bother with the facepalms.....
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline BobOnATank

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4805 on: May 26, 2017, 01:41:27 am »
Enjoy the Championship, leavers.....



Although Liverpool failed compared to the London clubs........ Makes you think...

Offline BobOnATank

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4806 on: May 26, 2017, 01:47:24 am »
A bit too much on the consipacy side of things but the off-shoring of work and illegality by UKIP is unsurprising.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy


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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4807 on: May 26, 2017, 08:57:17 am »
A similar conspiracy suggests the big money people bet heavily on Scottish independence and then tried with Brexit. Doubtless they would have employed firms like those in Bobonatank s article. Maybe the Scottish referendum was a dry run.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4808 on: May 27, 2017, 04:32:16 pm »
After May's performances lately, by the time Merkel finishes with her at the Brexit negotiations, the mantra will be, 'Strong and absorbent'.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4809 on: May 27, 2017, 04:41:37 pm »
After May's performances lately, by the time Merkel finishes with her at the Brexit negotiations, the mantra will be, 'Strong and absorbent'.

...and with a two way dry weave top sheet with wings...
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

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Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4810 on: May 27, 2017, 05:09:37 pm »
...and with a two way dry weave top sheet with wings...
Trust you to lower the tone.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4811 on: May 28, 2017, 08:49:16 am »



This is what the Home secretary just called "good news".

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4812 on: May 28, 2017, 08:55:55 am »
And it comes to something when the person speaking most sense on this is George Osbourne.....


He also defended an Evening Standard headline denouncing Mrs May's pledge to get annual net migration below 100,000 as "politically rash and economically illiterate".

"The Evening Standard is saying `You have got a promise to reduce immigration so tell us how you are going to do it.

"Which section of industry is not going to have the labour it currently needs? Which families are not going to be able to be reunited with members of their families abroad? Which universities are not going to have overseas students?

"If the Conservative government can answer those questions, all well and good. If they can't, the Evening Standard is going to go on asking the question."

Mr Osborne, who has stood down as a Conservative MP after being sacked as a chancellor by Mrs May last July, denied he was exacting his revenge on the prime minister. But he said the paper would not pull its punches.

"What the paper is doing is standing up for a set of values that the paper has long espoused and by a happy coincidence are also the values I applied as chancellor."

He said Mrs May had taken the party in a sharply different direction since taking over from Mr Cameron, who resigned after losing the EU referendum last year.

"Both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn are offering, in very different ways, a retreat from international liberalism and globalisation.

"That is quite a development in British politics, and I think there are quite a lot of people who are uncertain whether that is the right development and I want to make sure that the Evening Standard is asking on their behalf questions about that."

Mr Osborne told presenter Nick Robinson he was not missing front line politics.

"I'm really enjoying covering the campaign as an editor. It's a very different perspective and it's good fun."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40071822

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4813 on: May 29, 2017, 07:23:43 am »
And it comes to something when the person speaking most sense on this is George Osbourne.....

Isn't it just.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4814 on: May 29, 2017, 08:08:23 am »
I don't remember him having a problem or speaking up against limiting immigration when he was chancellor.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4815 on: May 29, 2017, 09:21:04 am »
I don't remember him having a problem or speaking up against limiting immigration when he was chancellor.

Of course he didn't, he's just sticking the knife into May.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4816 on: May 29, 2017, 09:35:30 am »

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4817 on: May 29, 2017, 09:38:47 am »
I don't remember him having a problem or speaking up against limiting immigration when he was chancellor.

They sidelined May when it came to immigration. It was Cameron, Osbourne and the cabinets opinion that they needed immigration to grow the economy so they put the emphasis on that rather than immigration.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4818 on: May 29, 2017, 09:55:26 am »
They sidelined May when it came to immigration. It was Cameron, Osbourne and the cabinets opinion that they needed immigration to grow the economy so they put the emphasis on that rather than immigration.

if they weren't putting the emphasis on immigration why have a target in your manifesto to reducing it to less then 100k, not once but twice while Osborne was chancellor?

I'd say that's putting some emphasis on it.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4819 on: May 29, 2017, 10:38:46 am »
if they weren't putting the emphasis on immigration why have a target in your manifesto to reducing it to less then 100k, not once but twice while Osborne was chancellor?

I'd say that's putting some emphasis on it.

Its widely known that it was a crazy policy that was haphazardly put together. The second time round it was through wanting a majority and getting rid of the coalition.

Cameron's mob were massively cosy with big business and the needs of them trumped immigration.

I hate them more than anyone and I find it strange how now people think they were not that bad because they were liberal, as if as long as you are liberal then its ok. But they were definitely pro immigration.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4820 on: May 30, 2017, 02:37:45 pm »
It's a bit of a long read, and an opinion (albeit from a man in the know) rather than with sources quoted. But it leads to the suggestion that the negotiations will be very difficult. I'd like to think we have negotiators that understand the land mines in the waters and can successfully navigate them to give us Brexit on good terms. Sadly I think we've got Capt. Pugwash at the helm.

Quote
What did the EU do wrong to drive UK away?
Barney Lane
Barney Lane, Career expert in EU regulation and Single Market
Updated 15h ago
It wasn't the EU’s fault. It wasn't the UK’s fault. What they did to drive us away, is nothing.

I like to go back to the words of Winston Churchill, who declared that there should be an EU. We must create a sort of United States of Europe, he said after WW2. But we shouldn't be in it.

The UK and the EU see things differently. They have a different view of politics, a different view of economics, law and most fundamentally of all, a different view of the malleability of political institutions in response to change.

When I was a young lad, I knew all these things. But I hoped that over time, our differences would be ironed out, that we would slowly converge and become a successful union. I expected give and take from both sides.

Today, as a professional of 20 years’ standing, working in the domain of EU regulation, single market and economic policy, I see the differences as fundamental and irreconcilable. The give and take required to make it work, just isn't there, on either side.

To consider these differences individually:

Political. Fundamental in the UK is the notion of legitimacy and consent. The EU doesn't work like that. The EU’s mindset is, we lead, you follow. Public opinion is a bit dirty. This provokes an extreme and highly emotional reaction in the UK, which is never sustainable in the long term. Call a UK politician “out of touch” and he knows there's a problem. Call an EU politician out of touch and the response is a bemused, “your point is?”.

Economic. The UK has a much more Atlanticist world view. It believes more in pure competition, market outcomes, private ownership and freedom to act within the law. The EU on the other hand is an uneasy fusion between the French and German models. On the one hand you have the German model, which is about occupying the commanding heights; to caricature a little (but only a little) it translates to “we make the rules, you obey them, we do when it suits us” and the French model, which is fundamentally protectionist and is hostile to free market outcomes.

Law. There is a difference in legal cultures. The UK believes in light regulation, prohibition by exception, general guidelines and case history to assist in complying with the spirit of a terse and sparsely worded primary law. The EU’s legal philosophy is pretty much the opposite; it is centered around permission by exception, detailed rules and voluminous primary legal documents.

Malleability. The UK believes, if something doesn't work, change it. Most complaints in the UK are about things not changing fast enough. Every political arrangement is viewed pragmatically as existing for a time and for a purpose. The UK is concerned about the future of the House of Lords, yet such a discussion could never happen in the EU, except as a result of a major trauma. Witness also the difference between the UK’s flexibility when faced with the threat of Scotland leaving the union by promising devolution, with the EU’s inflexible response to the UK potentially leaving. The UK couldn't understand why the EU wouldn't show any flexibility at all in response to very real and genuine concerns. The EU meanwhile misjudged the climate in the UK. We have a clash of mindsets: one pragmatic, the other dogmatic. Neither understands the other.

Those incompatibilities are being played out today in front of our very eyes in the phoney war over the negotiation. The EU is still of the belief that it runs the negotiation. It will not show flexibility because that's not how it works. The UK on the other hand will not do as it’s told. That's not how the UK works. It will not comply with the EU’s negotiation strategy of meekly signing up to a large financial settlement before being fobbed off with a lousy trade deal. The UK would rather be damaged than humiliated by the EU.

The EU believes it will win because it refuses to believe the UK will walk. It will sign whatever is put in front of it. But this is to make the exact mistake that it has always made; it’s a misjudgement of how UK politics work.

There are increasing signs of concern in the ranks of the EU that their strategy is not working. Witness the shock of Juncker when he finally came to understand that May was serious that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, and the childish behaviour that ensued. Much of the tough-talk on the EU side is because they really do think we are bluffing. The occasional reality checks that we’re not, are met with sanctimonious fits of rage. This is what happens when a dogmatic voice speaks to a pragmatic ear.

We are seeing a microcosm of the EU-UK relationship playing out in front of our very eyes, in all the wretched disfunctionality that has plagued its history from the outset.

The EU has misjudged the UK at every turn. Their response to Cameron’s warning that “you better take us seriously or we could leave” was “yeah right”; their response to “Brexit means Brexit” was laughter; “no deal is better than a bad deal” was met with pitying derision. Reading the German press leaves one with the impression that the decision to leave the EU has yet to be taken. They do not believe we are serious. Their mindset does not allow for the possibility that we are. Each proof that we are, is met only with a hardening of their line. They think they have to go that little bit further to make us see “sense”.

There is today, a very real risk of a no-deal outcome. This would be a traumatic and disruptive exit and bad for both sides. We have to hope this doesn't happen. But if the EU think that it can be avoided by carrying on as they are, they've misjudged (again). The UK and the EU are approaching the situation from different universes. Each side truly believes the other is deluded.

Just as they always have.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline redbyrdz

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4821 on: May 30, 2017, 05:08:01 pm »
I've read to his first point and think its utter bullshit.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4822 on: May 31, 2017, 09:12:45 am »

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4823 on: May 31, 2017, 09:49:24 am »
Guess we lose the right to compensation when airlines are delayed too
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4824 on: May 31, 2017, 10:04:41 am »
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/31/nhs-faces-500m-a-year-bill-post-brexit-for-returning-retirees-says-thinktank

The NHS would be hit with a bill for an extra £500m a year if all the retired British citizens now living in Europe could no longer get care post-Brexit and returned to the UK, a report from a healthcare thinktank has calculated.

According to the Nuffield Trust, the cost of Brexit to the NHS and social care system would be higher still if the numbers of nurses and care workers currently coming to the UK from Europe fell. Its report says there could be a shortfall of 70,000 paid carers by 2025/26 if the migration of unskilled workers to Britain from Europe is no longer permitted.

There are 190,000 British pensioners now living in European countries such as Spain, who currently get their healthcare costs paid as part of a reciprocal agreement called the S1 scheme. If the scheme ended and was not replaced and those people returned to the UK, their care would cost about £979m annually. At present, the UK puts £500m into S1, so Britain would effectively have to find another half a billion pounds a year, the report says.

The UK gains more from S1 than some other countries because EU migrants who come to Britain are usually of working age and pay taxes.

The Trust says an extra 900 hospital beds, equivalent to two hospitals the size of St Mary’s in Paddington, London, would be needed for the treatment of the returnees, together with the necessary staff. “Every step should be taken to try to secure a deal that allows them to keep receiving care where they now live,” says the report.

If migration from the EU is cut off, there could be a shortage of 20,000 nurses by 2025/26, Department of Health predictions have suggested – and that is assuming that those who are here now are allowed to stay.

On top of this, medicines could cost more post-Brexit, the report says. The UK may have to leave the European medicines licensing system. The report estimates that the drugs bill could rise by £100m.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4826 on: May 31, 2017, 01:40:39 pm »
Guardian painting a worst case scenario on ex pats coming back for health treatment. And ignoring any savings made by not treating EU retirees here?
Biggest loss by far is surely access to staff, unless they come in from elsewhere in the world.....
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4827 on: May 31, 2017, 01:50:29 pm »
Guardian painting a worst case scenario on ex pats coming back for health treatment. And ignoring any savings made by not treating EU retirees here?
Biggest loss by far is surely access to staff, unless they come in from elsewhere in the world.....

There are 145,000 expat Brit pensioners in the EU. There are 4,000 expat pensioner EU citizens in Britain. ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/38534958 )
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4828 on: May 31, 2017, 05:24:09 pm »
Guardian painting a worst case scenario on ex pats coming back for health treatment. And ignoring any savings made by not treating EU retirees here?
Biggest loss by far is surely access to staff, unless they come in from elsewhere in the world.....

You need to check your numbers I think  ::)

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4829 on: June 1, 2017, 12:39:48 am »
Pah! More then covered by the £350 million a week extra we will be spending on the NHS...

Plus, the UK is now tethered to Trumplandia. Who needs the EU, when you have friends like that.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4830 on: June 1, 2017, 08:28:23 am »
You need to check your numbers I think  ::)

There are 145,000 expat Brit pensioners in the EU. There are 4,000 expat pensioner EU citizens in Britain. ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/38534958 )

Thanks for the fact check.
Did think it unlikely they'd be many people coming here to retire in the sun.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4831 on: June 1, 2017, 09:35:11 am »
@AlbertoNardelli
Meanwhile, in the real world, Q1 GDP:

Germany 0.6%
Eurozone 0.5%
Italy 0.4%
France 0.4%
Global Britain 0.2%


So lucky we're breaking free of failing Europe.....

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4833 on: June 6, 2017, 04:51:40 pm »
Anecdotal so take it however you want:

 A friend was talking to a relation who is in senior management at one of the major German banks. I mentioned on the day before the referendum that she (the senior manager) was in London with instructions to sign a lease on a building in Frankfurt if the vote was for Leave. The preparations for transfer of operations from London is well under way and she was saying that you can see the changes in Frankfurt - better bars and restaurants etc and a general uplift in quality. By the time Brexit actually kicks in the only London staff will be those with British clients and as they expect the British economy to tank there won't be many of those.

Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4837 on: June 8, 2017, 09:49:28 am »
Couple of articles on the context of Brexit, and why we still seem to be doing it. Gave me a bit of a break from the election stuff today. Happy happy happy. Joy joy joy.

https://www.socialeurope.eu/2017/06/the-divergence-of-us-and-british-populism/

Quote
It was clear from the Milken conference that Trump will not deliver most of his domestic agenda. The Rust Belt will not enjoy a surge of infrastructure spending. US relations with Mexico or China will not change much. Trump’s main tax proposals will not get through Congress. And Trump’s promise to “repeal and replace” Obamacare immediately after taking office is almost certain to give way, under public pressure, to “reform and repair.”

After this immersion in US pragmatism, my return to British politics was deeply depressing. Political paths that seemed parallel just a few months ago are now diverging. While the US has taken only 100 days to see through Trump’s “alternative reality” (though perhaps not through Trump himself), almost nobody in Britain is even questioning the alternative reality of Brexit, despite the unexpected opportunity afforded by the June 8 election to avoid a self-destructive rupture from Europe.

And a response from Simon Wren-Lewis: https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/why-has-us-resisted-trump-but-uk.html

Quote
The New York Times and the Washington Post are in the front line against Trump, while if you want information on how Brexit is damaging the economy you will find plenty of it in the Financial Times. But that negative news does not normally make it into the broadcast media, because the broadcast media has decided that the Brexit debate is over. The reason it has done that is the real reason why the UK appears to have given in to Brexit, which is the Labour party.

It is difficult to get ideas discussed in a sustained way in the broadcast media unless one of the two major political parties is pushing it (see, for example, opposition to austerity before Corbyn). In contrast to the Democrats, who have been unified in their opposition to Trump, Labour have accepted Hard Brexit. It would be unfair to dump the whole responsibility for Labour’s Brexit U-turn on Jeremy Corbyn. Many Labour MPs pushed in the same direction because they thought it would gain them votes: austerity appeasement all over again. I think a strong leader who believed in EU membership could have overcome that, but Corbyn’s preferences were different.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4838 on: June 9, 2017, 11:57:00 am »
Yet another own goal' – EU points to Brexit breakdown after UK election

European diplomats and politicians fear hung parliament and weak prime minister are ‘disaster’ that threaten negotiations

Daniel Boffey and Jon Henley

Friday 9 June 2017 09.21 BST

The EU will force a humiliated Theresa May to explain her intentions at a face-to-face meeting in Brussels as senior diplomats and politicians warned the hung parliament resulting from the UK election was an “own goal” and a “disaster” that hugely increases the chance of Brexit talks breaking down.

The result is likely to delay the point at which Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, has someone with whom to negotiate. Sources said a meeting of the European council on 22 June was the EU27’s new deadline for wanting to know the prime minister’s plans.

Donald Tusk, the council president, reminded London on Friday that while the start of Brexit negotiations may now be delayed because of the election result, the date by which they must be concluded remains fixed: with article 50 already triggered, the clock is ticking on the two years allowed under the Lisbon treaty.

“We don’t know when Brexit talks start,” Tusk tweeted. “We know when they must end. Do your best to avoid a ‘no deal’ as result of ‘no negotiations.” Barnier also tweeted that “the timetable and EU positions are clear” and Brexit should start “when the UK is ready”.

The European commission president, Jean Claude Juncker, confirmed that the bloc was ready to start negotiations, but he feared it would not be easy for May to form a stable government.

“I hope that the British will be able to form as soon as possible a stable government,” Juncker said. “I don’t think that things now have become easier but we are ready.”

Guy Verhofstadt, the European parliament’s Brexit representative, described the result as “yet another own goal – after Cameron now May”, adding: “I thought surrealism was a Belgian invention.”

Verhofstadt said the outcome would “make already complex negotiations even more complicated. I hope the UK will soon have a stable government to start negotiations. This is not only about the UK, but also about the future of Europe.”

It had been hoped that officials from both sides would have informal talks next week over the logistics of the negotiations, before formal talks began on the week starting 19 June.

With the prime minister needing to both seek to form a minority or coalition government, as well as potentially revise her goals for the talks in the light of the election result, the original timetable seems unrealistic to officials in Brussels.

Günther Oettinger, the German member of the European commission, said: “We need a government that can act. With a weak negotiating partner, there’s the danger than the negotiations will turn out badly for both sides … I expect more more uncertainty now.”

One senior diplomat said of Friday morning’s result: “We want a deal. We are professionals, we have a mandate to get a deal, and we want a deal more than anyone. But we don’t even know who we are negotiating with.”.

A second EU source said: “We are ready. The ball is in the UK court”. Manfred Weber, the leader of the powerful conservative EPP group in the European parliament, tweeted that the Brexit clock was ticking and Britain “needs a government that is ready to negotiate, and fast”.

The EU had, until now, believed it understood that May wanted to take the UK out of both the single market and the customs union, but in the early hours of Friday morning the Brexit secretary, David Davis, suggested the election result could prompt a rethink.

Davis said of the Tory’s manifesto pledges on the single market and customs union: “That’s what it [the election] was about, that’s what we put in front of the people, we’ll see tomorrow whether they’ve accepted that or not. That will be their decision.”

The French prime minister, Edouard Philippe, was quick to scotch any suggestion that Britain might perform a U-turn and ask to stay in the EU – something that would need EU agreement – but he did expect Brexit negotiations to be “long and complex”.

Germany’s European affairs minister, Michael Roth, said that time was tight until the expiry of a two-year window to reach a negotiated deal: “We should not waste any time,” he said.

Pierre Moscovici, the French European commissioner, said the result would affect the negotiations but declined to be drawn on whether the EU executive hoped Britain might ask to stay. He said the timetable for leaving in 2019 was not “optional” but fixed in treaty law.

The Czech prime minister, Bohuslav Sobotka, said on Friday Britain should form a new government quickly, as months have already been lost in its divorce talks with the European Union.

British voters denied Theresa May the stronger mandate she had sought to conduct talks with the EU on leaving the bloc. “I only hope that it will not take too long (to form a government) because we have already lost several months from the time that Britain officially announced Brexit in March,” Sobotka told Czech Television.

“But now it will be necessary to wait for who will form a government and what this government will bring to negotiations over Brexit.”

Former Finnish premier Alexander Stubb tweeted: “Looks like we might need a time-out in the Brexit negotiations. Time for everyone to regroup.”

Andrius Kubilius, a former conservative prime minister of Lithuania, who sits on his country’s Brexit committee, said the British government’s need to keep an unstable parliamentary alliance together was a threat to progress on talks.

“I think it will be much messier now and negotiations will be much more difficult”, he said. “That’s an early thought but it depends on the internal decisions of Britain.” Kubilius added: “I think there will be a greater demand for a softer Brexit now and that is to be welcomed.”

Andrew Duff, a former Liberal Democrat MEP, and visiting fellow at the European Policy Centre thinktank, said the result could lead to the UK seeking to stay within the customs union.

He said: “May won’t be strong enough to get rid of the three Brexiteers now – David Davis, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and Liam Fox. The only concession the pro-EU people might get from the prime minister would be for the UK to stay in the customs union so that we don’t end up like Turkey. And if that happens she would be able to get rid of Liam Fox, because there wouldn’t be any purpose for a trade secretary.”

Gianni Pitella, leader of the socialist group in the European parliament, said: “The British people just punished the clear incompetence of Theresa May. She tried to gamble on the shoulders of the UK and EU citizens. She wanted the UK to have a stronger and harder negotiating position but has the chaos of a hung parliament.”

Most European capitals believed May would be returned to government with some form of majority – and expected that to lead to at best difficult talks, and at worst a breakdown of the negotiations, possibly as early as this summer.

May last month accused Brussels and the EU27 of “issuing threats” against Britain in an attempt “to affect the result of the election”. In fact, continental capitals would mostly prefer the government to have a strong majority since it would then feel confident enough to make concessions.

The smaller the majority in Westminster, “the more likely it is that the government will run into difficulty with MPs”, a London-based Benelux diplomat said. “The negotiators will be constantly watching their backs. It’s not a recipe for good talks.”

On Thursday night, Carl Bildt, the former Swedish prime minister tweeted: “Could be messy for the United Kingdom in the years ahead. One mess risks following another. Price to be paid for lack of true leadership.”

Sophia in ‘t Veld, the Dutch MEP who set up the European parliament’s taskforce examining the UK’s treatment of EU nationals, tweeted: “Cameron gambled, lost. May gambled, lost. Tory party beginning to look like a casino.

There are several clear bones of contention in the negotiations. The EU has made clear it expects “sufficient progress” to be made on the divorce deal – including the size of the UK’s exit bill, citizens’ rights and the border in Ireland – before it will begin to discuss a future trade deal.

Predicting “the row of the summer”, Davis insisted in May that Britain wanted to “see everything packaged up together, and that’s what we’re going to do”. He has also said the UK could “walk away” if confronted with the €100bn settlement the EU is said to be considering.

The UK government, while promising it would make a “generous offer”, could also be headed for conflict with the EU27 over the rights of the 3.5 million EU nationals who have made their lives in the UK and the 1.2 million Britons settled on the continent.

In detailed position papers published last month, the EU said it expected the European court of justice to have full jurisdiction over any citizens’ rights disputes, and the European commission to be able to monitor UK compliance. Neither stipulation would be acceptable to Brexit hardliners
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/09/uk-shock-election-result-may-hamper-brexit-talks-eu-leaders-warn

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #4839 on: June 11, 2017, 04:49:33 pm »
 EU threatens year-long delay in Brexit talks over UK's negotiating stance

Exclusive Theresa May to be told it would take 12 months to draft new mandate for Michel Barnier if she insists on discussing trade and divorce bill at same time

Brussels is sceptical about the Theresa May’s minority government to make effective decisions.

Daniel Boffey and Jennifer Rankin in Brussels

Sunday 11 June 2017 16.05 BST

Theresa May is to be told the EU will take a year to draft a new mandate for its chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, effectively killing the Brexit negotiations, if she insists on discussing a future trade relationship at the same time as the UK’s divorce bill.

In a sign of growing impatience with the shambolic state of the British side of the talks, senior EU sources said that if London insisted on talking about a free trade deal before the issues of its divorce bill, citizens rights and the border in Ireland were sufficiently resolved, it would be met with a blunt response.

“If they don’t accept the phased negotiations then we will take a year to draw up a new set of negotiating guidelines for Barnier,” one senior EU diplomat said, adding that the EU could not understand Britain’s continued claim that it would be able to discuss trade and the divorce terms in parallel.


The EU’s 27 leaders formally agreed to give Barnier a narrow set of tasks at a summit in April and they have no intention of rethinking the so-called phased approach when they meet May at a European summit on 22-23 June.

Formal Brexit talks are due to begin on 19 June, the same day as the Queen’s speech, at which point it will be known whether May has secured the support of a majority of MPs for her policy agenda.

The Department for Exiting the European Union (DExEU) sent a note to the European commission on Friday evening to signal that the government was operational and pre-negotiation talks about logistics should begin this week as planned.

Olly Robbins, May’s EU adviser, told his European counterparts: “The prime minister has directed that the procedures for preparing the negotiations for the formal withdrawal from the European Union should start as soon as possible.”

There is some scepticism in Brussels, however, about the ability of May’s minority administration to make effective decisions.

The threat to take a year out of the already dwindling window for negotiations under article 50 of the Lisbon treaty illustrates the intense frustration felt in Brussels.

The European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, had privately urged May to hold a general election on several occasions, hoping she would be able to secure a big enough majority to free herself from the whim of the hardline Brexiters in the cabinet, only to be left dismayed by the result.

An EU source disclosed that Brussels had also been secretly briefing Downing Street on the 27 member states’ negotiating position for months, well ahead of it being public, to allow the government to shape its response.

“They have had everything, sometimes before senior people here have seen the positions”, the source said. “May has known about the sequencing of talks since last September. None of this has been a surprise to her.”

Roberto Gualtieri, an Italian Socialist who leads his group on Brexit, said: “The previous government did not show a full awareness of what the negotiation is going to be,” Gualtieri said. “I hope the interlocutor will be fully aware.”

Elmar Brok, a senior MEP in Germany’s ruling centre-right party, said the EU would be open-minded if Britain reneged on its pledge to come out of the single market and the customs union following the election result. “We are open to everything from internal market and customs union to a free trade agreement. It depends on the flexibility of the British government. We want to keep the damage of Brexit low,” he said.

The defence secretary, Sir Michael Fallon, said on Sunday that the UK government’s position had not changed. EU diplomats, however, are reportedly expecting May to make a “generous offer” on guaranteeing the rights of European citizens living in the UK as a goodwill measure to start the talks.

A DExEU spokesman said: “We have been clear that we want to make a start on negotiations and we continue to engage with official counterparts in the EU and Brussels ahead of the talks commencing.”

The collapse of May’s authority has made her a figure of open mockery in Brussels. Martin Selmayr, Juncker’s powerful chief of staff, suggested May had made her aides the fall guys for her own failures. “Bauernopfer,” he tweeted in response to news about the forced resignation of Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill, a chess term that has taken on the meaning of firing a subordinate to protect the boss.

EU figures are also looking on with scepticism as May struggles to stitch together an alliance with Northern Ireland’s Democratic Unionists to prop up her government. Many are keenly aware that the DUP backed Brexit, a stance that puts them at odds with the increasingly powerful leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson, as well as the English Tory remain faction. The DUP has 10 MPs and the Scottish Conservatives 13.

There are also concerns about what the alliance with the DUP may mean when it comes to talks about the border in Ireland.

The Irish prime minister, Enda Kenny, tweeted on Sunday that he had spoken to May and indicated his concern that nothing should happen to put the Good Friday agreement at risk.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/11/eu-threatens-year-long-delay-in-brexit-talks-over-uks-negotiating-stance