Author Topic: Bloody Sunday  (Read 6084 times)

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2019, 08:56:35 pm »
This of course is an important post.

If you have soldiers managing civilian events they are likely to (at some point) respond like soldiers rather than police.

Of course the soldiers who shot bear responsibility (were they given orders to shoot? If so huge responsibility lies there).

But this situation only became possible by the political decision to bring the military into the equation, and whilst not an inevitability, it wasn’t even a possibility before that decision was taken.

I suppose those politicians are now dead and buried and won’t be around to be accountable.  It was ever thus I suppose.

I don't think the problem was the deployment of the military per se. In fact the military was initially welcomed by the Catholic population as 'neutral' peacekeepers (remembering the police force of the time was staunchly Protestant Unionist). The problem was how the military operated once they were deployed, both in terms of active doctrine and general unsuitability.

You are right that the military was very ill-suited for 'policing'. However at the time, in military terms, the British military considered themselves (and were considered by other Western militaries) to be very experienced and well equipped for policing operations. The problem was, the 'policing' operations the army had engaged in were in ex-colonies in Africa and Asia, where they could get away with such brutality. They couldn't get away with it in the streets of Western Europe.

The paratroopers who were responsible for Bloody Sunday, as well as the earlier Ballymurphy massacre, were particularly ill-suited even by general military-standards. They were being trained to fight WW3 against the Russians as shock troops. They instead used that training against civilians. Not that that excuses them in any way. They should probably have never been deployed, but even once deployed there is no excuses.

I actually visited Derry for the first time the other week. The first thing that struck me was how small and quaint it is. It is absolutely mad to think it was the scene of Bloody Sunday and what was basically civil war.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 09:00:40 pm by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2019, 08:58:49 pm »
Well said.

It doesn’t excuse than in any way.

“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
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Offline cress

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2019, 09:05:49 pm »
I'm sorry but my blood is absolutely boiling I have to get this off my chest. People were actually defending the soldiers on here ? What they did that day was murder. Pure and simple.
I'm born and bred in Derry, I'm too young to have been around but like everyone I have family who were there I personally know 2 families who lost someone, one of my fathers closest friends lost a brother who was trying to get to safety - but was shot in the back. My mother and father were there, my mother and her friends hid under a car to avoid the gun shots.
If you have the neck to defend what the soldiers did that day do yourself a favour, Read the facts. And I don't mean what news outlets feed you, read the full report. It's available. If you still want to defend them, visit Derry, speak to anyone above the age of 60 and you will hear at fist hand what happened. Then go visit the museum here, see the full story, the footage, the eye witness accounts. It's sickening. Open your eyes and ears and find out what really happened. It also drove hundreds of young angry men into the arms of paramilitaries, The effect has been catastrophic.
Stephen Lawrences' brother was here last week and he was shocked by what he seen when he walked around, talked to people, opened his eyes.
James McClean - he comes from the heart of where this all started,the stick people give him for not wearing a poppy too from the small minded idiots who have no idea what impact Bloody Sunday has had on not only this City but the troubles in general.

How can anyone defend this ? "The Saville Report concluded that all of those shot were unarmed and that none were posing a serious threat. It also concluded that none of the soldiers fired in response to attacks, or threatened attacks, by gunmen or bomb-throwers. No warnings were given before soldiers opened fire"
I agree wholeheartedly that people have no leg to stand on to defend what these soldiers did.

My opinion on this matter however is that the IRA bombings on the mainland will cloud the judgement and opinion of those outside of Northern Ireland. Unarmed civilians were killed in those instances too, the difference being those were killed closer to home and will be remembered more for those on the mainland. It's that mentality bubble that you can defend the murder of someone because they murdered one of your own - people simply don't stop to think that these were also unarmed civilians and not the IRA. It didn't help that the British institutions tried to sweep it under the carpet, and thus it never got the attention it should have.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2019, 06:32:33 pm »
I am struggling to understand how one soldier can be charged though and nobody appears to be after the people that gave the orders, did this soldier disobey the orders given to him ?

Doesnt take away the absolute disgust i have for what took place, it just seems odd to me.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2019, 07:18:28 pm »
I am struggling to understand how one soldier can be charged though and nobody appears to be after the people that gave the orders, did this soldier disobey the orders given to him ?

Doesnt take away the absolute disgust i have for what took place, it just seems odd to me.
Probably down to the available evidence after all this time.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2019, 08:25:40 pm »
I am struggling to understand how one soldier can be charged though and nobody appears to be after the people that gave the orders, did this soldier disobey the orders given to him ?

Doesnt take away the absolute disgust i have for what took place, it just seems odd to me.
I think the commanding officer is dead, killed in kenya i think.

Offline cowtownred

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2019, 12:51:09 am »
I think the commanding officer is dead, killed in kenya i think.

That's sad.

Offline cress

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2019, 08:26:30 am »
I am struggling to understand how one soldier can be charged though and nobody appears to be after the people that gave the orders, did this soldier disobey the orders given to him ?

Doesnt take away the absolute disgust i have for what took place, it just seems odd to me.
Failure to follow the rules of engagement i'd imagine, though it is up to how the soldier sees the situation. I.e if he feels there is a real threat to life then he can engage so long as warnings are given. The evidence from what I've seen points to no warnings being given, and so that leads me to believe that rules of engagement were not followed. Though I don't have the rules of engagement to hand for that period of time. There is failure's all along the chain of command that contributed to that day though.

The bolded part for me is the reason people do get uptight about soldiers being charged and probably a big contributor to why the atrocities in Northern Ireland get brushed aside. Similar situation with the Iraq war where soldiers were being sent down, when Tony Blair et al were just as culpable starting an illegal war, yet get off without prosecution.

Offline BobOnATank

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2019, 12:36:02 am »
I am struggling to understand how one soldier can be charged though and nobody appears to be after the people that gave the orders, did this soldier disobey the orders given to him ?

Doesnt take away the absolute disgust i have for what took place, it just seems odd to me.

British "justice" init - take back control - brexit party - you name it. We have and still are living with westminster politics that do not care what harm they do.

Offline thejbs

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2019, 10:52:38 am »
Now there's a novel way to get around prosecuting murderers for bloody Sunday - change the law so they can't be punished.

Military prosecutions: 'Unfair' investigations to be barred https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48276804

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2019, 10:59:01 am »
Now there's a novel way to get around prosecuting murderers for bloody Sunday - change the law so they can't be punished.

Military prosecutions: 'Unfair' investigations to be barred https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48276804

It must be great knowing that you can do what the hell you like and know that you'll never be prosecuted for it  ::)

NI wont be included at first, but there's pressure from other Tories to include NI as well.

Suck up that British justice.

Offline slaphead

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #51 on: July 4, 2019, 10:16:10 am »
Amazon - hang your heads in shame. They are selling T-Shirts "I Stand with Soldier F".
Either they don't understand what this means, or they are incredibly stupid. To sell merchandise supporting the murder of innocent civil rights protesters is absolutely despicable from a Company that should have some respect.
Maybe it's not a big deal to them, maybe they don't understand it, but how the hell can the families try to get over their grief if Amazon are assisting the idiots who want to antagonise.
Its volatile enough here as it is without this.

Offline weebroalan

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #52 on: July 4, 2019, 10:35:50 am »
Amazon - hang your heads in shame. They are selling T-Shirts "I Stand with Soldier F".
Either they don't understand what this means, or they are incredibly stupid. To sell merchandise supporting the murder of innocent civil rights protesters is absolutely despicable from a Company that should have some respect.
Maybe it's not a big deal to them, maybe they don't understand it, but how the hell can the families try to get over their grief if Amazon are assisting the idiots who want to antagonise.
Its volatile enough here as it is without this.

That really is beyond the pale, even by Amazon standards. Is it Amazon selling it direct or one of those business pages using Amazon?

Offline slaphead

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #53 on: July 4, 2019, 11:00:00 am »
That really is beyond the pale, even by Amazon standards. Is it Amazon selling it direct or one of those business pages using Amazon?

I think its Amazon mate, just heard Colm Eastwood talking about it he was saying he is contacting senior Executives at Amazon about it. Can't even bring myself to going on and checking fro myself. Sickening isnt it ?

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #54 on: July 4, 2019, 11:10:35 am »
Amazon will not be aware of of the mug or what it means; not until it is flagged. However, I doubt they will remove it. I recall their huge reluctance to remove dog fighting books, for example.

The product title for the Soldier F Mug (amazon.COM) is quite something:
Quote
Soldier F Million Veterans March Soldierf Union Jack -funny Present For My Greatest Boss Male Or Female, Men, Women, Great Office Gift Mugs, Birthday, Leaving, Bold, Cup, 11 Oz
« Last Edit: July 4, 2019, 11:19:41 am by Jiminy Cricket »
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline slaphead

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #55 on: July 4, 2019, 11:59:47 am »
Amazon will not be aware of of the mug or what it means; not until it is flagged. However, I doubt they will remove it. I recall their huge reluctance to remove dog fighting books, for example.

The product title for the Soldier F Mug (amazon.COM) is quite something:

I doubt they will too, not so long as it sells.
"Funny Present" - they want to come and have a look and see how funny it is to the families.

Offline weebroalan

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #56 on: July 4, 2019, 12:03:59 pm »
I think its Amazon mate, just heard Colm Eastwood talking about it he was saying he is contacting senior Executives at Amazon about it. Can't even bring myself to going on and checking fro myself. Sickening isnt it ?
Awful

Offline thejbs

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #57 on: July 5, 2019, 10:45:09 am »
I don’t mind seeing union flags everywhere this time of year. It’s always been the way and I take no offence to it. The UVF flags of the last few years have made me feel uneasy and the soldier F / para ones this year have added to that.

This isn’t some rare nationalist thing either - seeing freshly daubed IRA graffiti gives me a chill too.

Offline Daniel Cabbaggio

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #58 on: July 6, 2019, 07:37:36 pm »
I don’t mind seeing union flags everywhere this time of year. It’s always been the way and I take no offence to it. The UVF flags of the last few years have made me feel uneasy and the soldier F / para ones this year have added to that.

This isn’t some rare nationalist thing either - seeing freshly daubed IRA graffiti gives me a chill too.
Yeah its not nice to see
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #59 on: July 6, 2019, 07:40:17 pm »
Wasn't Tommy Boy wearing a Para/Soldier F badge when he was interviewed after the Coutt hearing yesterday?

Could see his lot ordering hundreds of tee shirts. Amazon will be pleased.

Offline slaphead

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Re: Bloody Sunday
« Reply #60 on: July 9, 2019, 03:19:23 pm »
Wasn't Tommy Boy wearing a Para/Soldier F badge when he was interviewed after the Coutt hearing yesterday?

Could see his lot ordering hundreds of tee shirts. Amazon will be pleased.


Was he ?  That wouldn't surprise me from that bell end. Not one of them dicks will have the first clue as to what went on most likely too. Blindly following their moronic leader.