Topic: Xbox

[Macphisto80]

The problem MS has is that a lot of multi plat games looked better on 360 because of XNA and easy dev tools. Most 360 fanboys are all about the cross platform multiplayer games anyway (Fifa/Cod being two shining examples). Gears looks like it has wrapped itself up nicely and Halo just needs to die. Sony have wrapped up some really nice exclusives under Microsoft's nose as well. They really need to start releasing some 'positive' info about this console. Basically they've just surrendered most of their trump cards.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that is the only reason. Contrary to popular belief, particularly with Sony fan freaks, the 360 has an edge over the PS3 where it actually matters, and that's in it's GPU, which is more powerful. Forget about your CPU, RAM and all the other stuff. If that GPU isn't up to scratch, it negates everything else. The same can be said for the upcoming generation. A lot of fuss being made of this 8gb ddr5 RAM. While it's a nice achievement to have that in the box, it actually accounts for nothing major if again the GPU isn't all that great. It's a bit of a red herring. People are assuming more RAM = prettier graphics. While it might free up artists to produce better textures, all it means is that there will be less bottlenecks. It's more for performance than anything else. So, if the next Xbox releases with 8gb of standard ddr3 memory, there's no difference. Someone might notice a texture pop in somewhere and make a big deal of it, but that's about it.

Oh, and this always online lark. Bad, bad move. Seriously, MS couldn't be that fucking stupid to release a system with that stipulation attached to it. If they want to kill off their console hardware plans, then that is a very solid way of going about it.

[iSmiff]

there's easier ways to kill the Xbox brand, the main one being to just not release another console

[Upinsmoke]

Macphisto.

I have to disagree, I'll write more later but the gddr5 ram (as opposed to ddr3) is very important in a console design and the reason that ps3 games performed worse than there 360 counterparts is the way the GPU and CPU accessed the ram, which was unified on the 360 and not on the ps3 and also because the cell should/could/would be used alongside the RSX to take the weight off the GPU and actually perform some tasks the GPU would usually do.

But yeah, Sony fan freak shall return once I've put this little sod to bed!



............

So yeah...there are lots of reason's why 360 games looked better. You can't nail it to the GPU, its not that cut and dry. Firstly if we take both GPU's from nVidia and ATI, the latter had 48 pipelines which were unified. PS3/nVidia had 24 pixel pipelines i think and 8 vertex, plus the 360 had 10bm of edram which basically meant they could implement AA with zero performance hit. However you also need to remember that the cell processor was used to take some pressure off the RSX, it can perform vertex pipeline functions which would usually be left to the GPU. Even so, lets say that the 360 had the upper hand in that department, a factor in multiplatform development no doubt. For me the biggest issue was the way that the RAM was accessed, once again the xbox 360's ram was unified, 512mb running at 700mhz gddr3. So the CPU and GPU could access this how the developers saw fit, they could borrow from one another. The ps3 also had 512mb, but it was split into 256mb banks, one accessed by the GPU, the other the CPU, but PS3 did have 256mb of XDR ram @ 3.2ghz that the cell accessed, so it was faster. THIS is a massive reason why games performed differently, you had developers utilising 512mb ram on the 360 how they saw fit and when they came to the PS3 they we're like ooooh shit, now we only have 256mb of ram for the GPU max. Plus the OS had a bigger footprint at the start of the PS3's life, think they got that down overtime, reason in-game xmb and background downloads finally came into play and the reason why in-game chat never has, the memory just isn't there.

Still PS3 produced better looking games, not because the first party dev's are better (thats personal opinion) but because they could ultimately get more out of the system in the end. I'm of the opinion that the 360 hit a brick wall with Gears, great looking game, i was like Woah but no game (graphically) did that to me on that system ever since. Where as ps3 did for me.

[Upinsmoke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWhCYwrtX5c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68aCNwI-V_s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgXBaM2yPL0

Lazy youtube video's but....one winner graphically.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Best looking title on the 360 is probably Halo 4. And although it's not out yet I think The Last of Us probably has the best graphics on the PS3.

[Kashinoda]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWhCYwrtX5c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68aCNwI-V_s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgXBaM2yPL0

Lazy youtube video's but....one winner graphically.

Think Gears looks better than Uncharted there, the quality of the video is shite though.

Also think Forza 4 looks better in parts than GT5.

[Macphisto80]

Best looking title on the 360 is probably Halo 4. And although it's not out yet I think The Last of Us probably has the best graphics on the PS3.

Correct.

The memory restrictions on PS3 had absolutely nothing to do with why multi-platform games generally looked poorer. The major reason for that was due to most games being developed from the ground up on the 360, and then ported to the PS3. The Cell was the defining factor, not it's memory. Most devs hated it's architecture. In general, most PS3 exclusive titles built from scratch on the platform looked great, and it could be argued that they looked better than most 360 titles. For a system with half the memory, it fared pretty well as far as LOD and texturing came in, although the PS3 was notorious for struggling a little with Unreal Engine 3 due to it's memory hogging nature. Even 360 games had pop in using that engine. As I said, the memory is more for performance niggles like that, especially when it's excessive. Generally how a game turns out in the looks department is down to the developer's talent. It's as simple as that. Even with 360's and PS3's old hardware, that hardware is still more or less a blank canvas for artists to express whatever idea's they want. There is still enough freedom there to produce outstanding looking visuals. Gears of War may be seen by many as the apex of what the 360 was capable of, but it was build with an engine designed to be scaled to multiple platforms. The engine is limited, but it's dev friendly so it's used widely. It was the art design that made Gears stand out, and then when you look at Halo 4 and compare that to what Bungie were doing, the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Talented artists and programmers are the telling factors in how good something looks more so than the actual hardware. It's always been that way, but it's more telling than ever, and I think hardware became redundant somewhat in the last generation.

[Upinsmoke]

http://www.shacknews.com/article/71385/fallout-new-vegas-dev-talks-ps3-memory

It had everything to do why they performed worse though. Plus like I said the cell processor performed functions that the gpu would usually do. The entire package when push came to shove was that ps3 had better hardware for the longterm.

[Upinsmoke]

If its solely down to the GPU then why did or why do ps3's best looking games beat the 360's offerings?

[Macphisto80]

If its solely down to the GPU then why did or why do ps3's best looking games beat the 360's offerings?

That's debatable. It could be argued that Tomb Raider looks on par to the Uncharted games, and that game is both on 360 and PS3. Same can be said for Battlefield 3 and Crysis 2 and 3, both of which are using next generations engines scaled down. I've certainly not seen a single game on either consoles that is much better looking aesthetically than Halo 4. The differences are extremely minimal to be negligible. It all really just comes down to what has the better design. In the game industry, time is money, and money is development and talent. Sony obviously throw a lot of money at their exclusives, and the teams developing them are very talented. You take Rare for example: a company renowned in the past to be very talented and produced some of the best looking titles for the respective generation that they were on top on. Now look at them after the main talent in the company vacated them and moved on. They haven't produced anything decent in years, and Perfect Dark Zero was all over the place as far as design went. It was just a mess.

[Macphisto80]

http://www.shacknews.com/article/71385/fallout-new-vegas-dev-talks-ps3-memory

It had everything to do why they performed worse though. Plus like I said the cell processor performed functions that the gpu would usually do. The entire package when push came to shove was that ps3 had better hardware for the longterm.

Yes, but as I've stated, that's a performance issue. Not a aesthetic issue. Obviously a lack of memory will cause a bottleneck in large open world games. I said in the PS4 thread that this is where the major benefits of large amounts of RAM will be useful. Large open worlds can now be more detailed, and draw and LOD distances more expansive because there's a large pool of memory to store all the textures needed to be displayed in a scene. Mip-mapping in open world games usually takes a huge hit. That won't be an issue anymore for texture artists.

It's very simple: anyone who's owned a gaming rig will know that sufficient RAM means sufficient performance. Adding more and more RAM does not equal better performance or graphics. There's a threshold there. Most games, even on next gen systems will only require 4 (maybe slightly more depending on the engine) gig of that memory at a push. The rest will be allocated to other dedicated functions like the OS and whatever other extraneous shite MS and Sony decide to bundle in there.

[MBL?]

I wouldn't go as far as saying that is the only reason. Contrary to popular belief, particularly with Sony fan freaks, the 360 has an edge over the PS3 where it actually matters, and that's in it's GPU, which is more powerful. Forget about your CPU, RAM and all the other stuff. If that GPU isn't up to scratch, it negates everything else. The same can be said for the upcoming generation. A lot of fuss being made of this 8gb ddr5 RAM. While it's a nice achievement to have that in the box, it actually accounts for nothing major if again the GPU isn't all that great. It's a bit of a red herring. People are assuming more RAM = prettier graphics. While it might free up artists to produce better textures, all it means is that there will be less bottlenecks. It's more for performance than anything else. So, if the next Xbox releases with 8gb of standard ddr3 memory, there's no difference. Someone might notice a texture pop in somewhere and make a big deal of it, but that's about it.

Unconfirmed but isn't the ps4's GPU supposed to be 30/40% more powerful than Durango?

[iSmiff]

we don't know the speed of either so...

[Malaysian Kopite]

 
VG Leaks: BC for NextBox to be an add on, can play offline
http://www.vgleaks.com/microsoft-xbox-roadmap-2013/
 We have received new information about the latest Xbox Roadmap. Our source unveils new details for Durango, Xbox mini and the Microsoft strategy; moreover we don’t forget Kinect 2.0.
Microsoft expands its Xbox brand
Getting to the point there are going to be two console as part of the redesigned “Xbox Line” of products. A repackaged and reoriented Xbox 360 unit and the new “Durango” gaming console, both designed to compete with more than Sony in gaming, but against Apple as well.

 When the Durango (game machine) launches, it will not support backwards compatibility for 360 games out of the box. Instead, this functionality will come from the other unit that will be networked with the Durango to provide this (not unlike the DVD add-on for the original Xbox).

 The purpose of the smaller Xbox unit is to compete with Apple TV, but also provides XBLA and 360 game support which will give it an edge over Apple TV. The rumors of “always online required” comes from the smaller Xbox unit which may not have a disc drive and like Apple TV it would require a network connection and internet to provide any real functionality. It may be possible they will design both consoles to be stackable.

Durango itself will also always be online like any other device (correct with rumors), but it will not be a requirement to play local content and it will not prevent playing used games. Putting in an Xbox 360 disc into Durango will prompt the user to attach the supporting device that is sold separately. By separating the two devices and their functions it will ensure price competitiveness for both pieces of hardware. Microsoft’s delay in announcing these products from April goes more inline with not having a physical set of devices to show (among specification updates), which should be ready by May or June when this information is officially released.

The price goal of the smaller Xbox is $149 or lower and it is likely to not have a disc drive and would require a network connection. Durango will be priced competitively according to PS4′s price.

Kinect 2.0
A different department within Xbox handles Kinect hardware and software. The focus was more on developing and networking both consoles with Kinect more of an after thought at that point, considering dealing with it would be less of an issue even with hardware changes to the main console hardware. Kinect isn’t the primary focus.

 The development kits required several pieces of hardware as to combine all “potential” hardware which may or may not be required to work with each other, which also includes the potential for any or all devices to required a network connection, which is where most of the “required” rumors are coming from.

Kotaku and Verge have also released similar info. Thank fuck.

[Malaysian Kopite]

http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/10/42...tainment-plans

 Quote:
Microsoft is investing in TV in a big way with its next Xbox console as part of a fight for the living room. Multiple sources familiar with the company's Xbox plans have revealed to The Verge that Microsoft will introduce a feature that lets its next-generation console take over a TV and set-top box in a similar way to Google TV. We understand that the next Xbox will require an online connection to use the entertainment services, allowing them to be always-on for streaming and access to TV signals.

 "Very similar to Google TV, but with Xbox gaming"

 The functionality will work by taking a cable box signal and passing it through to the Xbox via HDMI, allowing Microsoft's console to overlay a UI and features on top of an existing TV channel or set-top box. We're told that this is a key part of the next-generation Xbox and that it will go a step further than Google's TV implementation thanks to Microsoft's partnerships with content providers. Extended support for various cable services will be rolled out gradually, but the basic functionality will be available at launch.

 Coupled with this TV functionality, Microsoft's next-generation Kinect sensor will also play a role in the company's TV focus. The Verge has learned that the next Kinect will detect multiple people simultaneously, including the ability to detect eye movement to pause content when a viewer turns their head away from a TV. Microsoft is said to be using these capabilities as part of its UI and features for its TV plans.

 "Xbox TV set-top box still in the works"

 Microsoft recently announced its plans to sell its Mediaroom IPTV business to Ericsson. The sale moves Microsoft away from supporting and helping build out software that's used in over 22 million set-top boxes worldwide. It's also part of an effort by Microsoft to focus fully on its Xbox console for entertainment apps and TV services. We're told that the company is still planning to introduce its own low-cost "Xbox TV" set-top box, but that this will likely debut early next year rather than alongside the next-generation console.

 Microsoft is currently planning an Xbox event for May where we expect the company to detail parts of its next-generation Xbox. A spokesperson for Microsoft refused to comment on this story.

[iSmiff]

two machines required to play old xbox and xbla games, get to fuck MS

either put it in all machines or build a Premium device with this in it, stackable machines, really

[Malaysian Kopite]

two machines required to play old xbox and xbla games, get to fuck MS

either put it in all machines or build a Premium device with this in it, stackable machines, really

Durango can't be backward compatible with the 360 just like the PS4 can't with the PS3. I suppose this is the best solution they have. People who don't have a 360 but want to play 360 games can just purchase the add on whereas the rest of us will probably just keep our 360 consoles.

Unless you mean original Xbox titlee. Not sure how that'll work. Not mentioned there is it?

[iSmiff]

i'm aware that they can't make it backwards compatible but a second device connected to play 360 games

it stinks of HD-DVD drive to me

[Malaysian Kopite]

i'm aware that they can't make it backwards compatible but a second device connected to play 360 games

it stinks of HD-DVD drive to me

Yep. A bit like the 32x actually. Won't be surprised to see far fewer 360 add on units shipped compared to Durango units.

[iSmiff]

i think it would be a very small market they'd be selling it to, most people will just keep their 360 if they still want to play the games

me, i'm a whore for new stuff, i'll never switch the 360 on again as soon as i get a nextgen

[lachesis]

That's a bit more positive anyway. So basically you have a cable box that's always connected (which is normal) and it sounds as though you'll need to stream xbox 360 titles to the new device.

Instead, this functionality will come from the other unit that will be networked with the Durango to provide this (not unlike the DVD add-on for the original Xbox).

The price goal of the smaller Xbox is $149 or lower and it is likely to not have a disc drive and would require a network connection. Durango will be priced competitively according to PS4′s price.

That seems to indicate you will be streaming the content from the smaller box as it doesn't have a disk drive - wonder how people will transfer their hard copies to their account? I think any news was better than the rumours though. Have to be honest, can't see many of these TV boxes selling though just for an overlay on your TV/cable provider.

[walshys_mullet]

Whatever happened to games consoles being used to play er... purely games?

[MBL?]

Why would you need your sky box hooked up to it? And would this even work in Europe?


Pauses tv when you look away? That sounds awful.

[MBL?]

[lachesis]

First party launch titles sound a bit disappointing although I don't expect all of Sony's to be available on day 1 either:

We're told Ryse is designed to be Microsoft's new Gears of War / Halo mega launch title. It's set in the roman empire period and uses deep Kinect integration to allow a player to slash and kick at enemies. We understand that Ryse will take advantage of the new body tracking improvements in the next Kinect sensor. Ryse is part of four major launch titles for the next-generation Xbox. Sources tell us that a new Forza title with "super life-like" graphics will also be made available at launch, alongside a zombie game and a family game set on an island with Pixar movie-style graphics. We're told that the family game will utilize Kinect to scan a body and generate a virtual character in the game.

Having watched the Knack reveal I can see Pixar like graphics seem very achievable on both consoles.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Launch games sound alright. Ryse looked fantastic at E3, problem is it just seems the desired gameplay is too advanced for Kinect. Love Forza so pleased that there'll be a launch title Forza. Zombie and family game sounds generic and seem to be following Zombi zu and Knack. Don't expect a new Halo for a while yet anyway. We've got to see what 3rd party games are coming to it though.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Also from that article:
We understand that these four titles are a small selection of the launch titles for the next-generation Xbox. Third-party support is said to be strong in the first-person-shooter genre. Microsoft is also working on some improvements to Xbox Live, including a switch to currency over the Microsoft Points system. Microsoft is expected to hold a special Xbox event in May, ahead of a full unveiling at E3 in June.

[iSmiff]

That's a bit more positive anyway. So basically you have a cable box that's always connected (which is normal) and it sounds as though you'll need to stream xbox 360 titles to the new device.

That seems to indicate you will be streaming the content from the smaller box as it doesn't have a disk drive - wonder how people will transfer their hard copies to their account? I think any news was better than the rumours though. Have to be honest, can't see many of these TV boxes selling though just for an overlay on your TV/cable provider.

i'm specualating here but there's nothing to stop you using the disc drive in the Next Box to run the game from disc to the attachment that plays it

[Malaysian Kopite]

i'm specualating here but there's nothing to stop you using the disc drive in the Next Box to run the game from disc to the attachment that plays it

Pretty sure something I read confirms that.

[lachesis]

i'm specualating here but there's nothing to stop you using the disc drive in the Next Box to run the game from disc to the attachment that plays it

That sounds sensible I guess. I'm curious about the streaming though. Not everyone has wireless 'n' yet so I'm guessing it would have to be in and out of router/switch? Anyway, whether it's PS4 or Durango, looks like you need a permanent connection for both for BC. Gaikai because it streams from external source and Stingray requires permanent connection for video DRM.

Saw something interesting about the OnLive service though and streaming. Look at the bandwidth these would take up:



_{Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-onlive-boosts-image-quality}

[iSmiff]

so in order to stream a decent quality picture at 12mbps (lets face it the 5 looks shite) you'd need to set aside nearly 5.5GB per hour

haha, good luck with your ISP folks

[Malaysian Kopite]

Microsoft making at least four new IP's:

[barneystuta]

Not the best advert for their "always on" ... "feature".

http://www.explosion.com/28749/saturdays-xbox-live-outage-shows-dangers-of-always-on-drm/

I love my 360, and while I am predominately "always online", things like this highlight the issues with it. Xbox Live rarely does have downtime, but it can. And when it does, it is usually a lengthy outage (a few hours to a day).

Not great.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Not the best advert for their "always on" ... "feature".

http://www.explosion.com/28749/saturdays-xbox-live-outage-shows-dangers-of-always-on-drm/

I love my 360, and while I am predominately "always online", things like this highlight the issues with it. Xbox Live rarely does have downtime, but it can. And when it does, it is usually a lengthy outage (a few hours to a day).

Not great.

All recent developments/rumours indicate that Durango doesn't have a different 'online' policy to the 360. You can still play your games offline and will be able to use preowned games.

[iSmiff]

you know if they do go always online the amount of DDOS attacks would be insane

[Kashinoda]

All recent developments/rumours indicate that Durango doesn't have a different 'online' policy to the 360. You can still play your games offline and will be able to use preowned games.

I challenge you to an all-out Xbox Durango Rumour Battle Royale.

[Malaysian Kopite]

I challenge you to an all-out Xbox Durango Rumour Battle Royale.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Oh, also, over the weekend CVG received separate confirmation that May 21 is the date for the next Xbox event. We'll dedicate the entirety of our resources to the event when it happens, as you can imagine.

In other matters, this week we'll also be providing a first look at two new games - which I believe we're not allowed to mention just now. You'll find out soon enough.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/401028/blog/dealt-with-it-why-microsoft-will-surely-now-shun-an-always-online-future/

[longball]

Let's hope all of this is true.

http://www.gamesradar.com/rumor-xbox-720-always-online-false-backwards-compatible/

[iSmiff]

that sounds massively better and the second box actually might be good if it works like apple tv but with xbox games and XBLA

though in saying that the apple tv is a piece of shit unless you jailbreak it and put XBMC on it