Topic: United Ireland v United Kingdom

[cowtownred]

Sorry they're not really a Political Party, Saoradh, they're a group of some sort, they said this, among other nonsense

"The inevitable reaction to such an incursion was resistance from the youth of Creggan. The blame for last night lies squarely at the feet of the British Crown Forces, who sought to grab headlines and engineered confrontation with the community.

"During this attack on the community, a Republican Volunteer attempted to defend people from the PSNI/RU"

Listen, I've seen the stuff that goes on, I've seen how the Police can act here but we're talking about this incident, and this

"The blame for last night lies squarely at the feet of the British Crown Forces"  and this
"During this attack on the community, a Republican Volunteer attempted to defend people from the PSNI/RU"

People do not need "defended" from the PSNI by 19 year olds firing guns at armored cars, and we all know who's solely to blame here.

Of course mate, but when you know the guy at the top, this sort of incident (and the car bomb outside the Court recently which might have been even worse) isn't totally a surprise.

[slaphead]

Of course mate, but when you know the guy at the top, this sort of incident (and the car bomb outside the Court recently which might have been even worse) isn't totally a surprise.

Yeah mate that's very true alright. That car bomb was one was as reckless as they come, I was actually in Tinney's when it happened not far away. Then I seen the footage of the group of teenage girls who walked past just before it exploded. No regard do they

[cowtownred]

Yeah mate that's very true alright. That car bomb was one was as reckless as they come, I was actually in Tinney's when it happened not far away. Then I seen the footage of the group of teenage girls who walked past just before it exploded. No regard do they

Must nip in for a pint one day with you...  and barman Martin!

[slaphead]

Must nip in for a pint one day with you...  and barman Martin!

Absolutely have to Sean ! , its a great pub for a few pints. Mate of mine is always in there great place to start

[Sarge]

The kid who murdered Lyra McKee was led by senior Republicans and one major worry is that the Creggan has one of highest poverty rates in the North. Derry's young got no peace spoils and now welfare cuts voted through by SF and The Dup are not going down well. Lets be honest they where abandonned by everyone. To 'some' war is still on and its easy prey to dissidents that this disaffected youth are in need of something. Need to face this stuff because these young 'Revolutionaries' look up to the older lad who are ex-Provo and Real IRA volenteers.

The election of Gary Donnelly, then a member of the 32 County Sovereignty Movement (Political Wing of the Real IRA), as a councillor in 2014 is an example of the support for dissident republicanism, or at the very least disillusionment with established political parties. Sinn Féin and The Dup need to get the Institutions back up and running now and show actual leadership because now is the time its needed, petty fucking points scoring wont solve a thing.

The police believe the dissident republican group the “New IRA” was responsible. An 18-year-old and a 19-year-old arrested on Saturday were released on Sunday evening.

Now within the commnities of Derry's Creggan and Bogside The New IRA are growing as they are in Tallaght Co. Dublin, two low income and high Unemployment hotspots. They will continue to grow if the Political class does not get its finger out and that includes Stormout, Leinster House and Westministers plus the Yanks.

Only today many many recruitment posters where erected in colleges across Ireland by The New IRA, they are pushing hard and are not looking like shying away, quite the oppisite. No I've not seen a backlash like what happened in Derry over the weekend with people putting Red paint on their hands on putting it on the Office of Soaradh, that was powerful.

The New IRA apoligy was a fucking joke to be honest and it laid out its intent to strike again within the statement, worrying times.

[Sarge]

[slaphead]

Very worrying times indeed Sarge. So many things when they are put together can have catastrophic consequences. The easy prey of youth, them looking up to the ex Provo men and women, SF and the DUP being of no help whatsoever.
Elections are on next week, I'll be very surprised if Donnelly gets in now after this, that's kind of what I was getting at earlier. They may have had some kind of support by the people who were just pissed off of nothing happening with the established party's, but now, people have turned. At least we can hope.
I'll tell you what though that night, I would say 99% people there would of been from Creggan or the surrounding area, if that bullet had have hit someone from there, there would be scenes like you have never seen before up there. That doesn't detract away from what a travesty it was of course and its not intended to sound in anyway disrespectful to Lyra McKee
The thing with the red paint, powerful indeed wasn't it. The Police let them get on with it, so did the members from Soaradh. No one dared stop them.

[Sarge]

Very worrying times indeed Sarge. So many things when they are put together can have catastrophic consequences. The easy prey of youth, them looking up to the ex Provo men and women, SF and the DUP being of no help whatsoever.
Elections are on next week, I'll be very surprised if Donnelly gets in now after this, that's kind of what I was getting at earlier. They may have had some kind of support by the people who were just pissed off of nothing happening with the established party's, but now, people have turned. At least we can hope.
I'll tell you what though that night, I would say 99% people there would of been from Creggan or the surrounding area, if that bullet had have hit someone from there, there would be scenes like you have never seen before up there. That doesn't detract away from what a travesty it was of course and its not intended to sound in anyway disrespectful to Lyra McKee
The thing with the red paint, powerful indeed wasn't it. The Police let them get on with it, so did the members from Soaradh. No one dared stop them.

I'm of a Republican background and the word I'm getting is they are not wanted by the vast majority but the thing is the points i made above is the worry, political void from SF/DUP, a youth with no future and no real leadership on the ground bar the Dissidents.

[slaphead]

I'm of a Republican background and the word I'm getting is they are not wanted by the vast majority but the thing is the points i made above is the worry, political void from SF/DUP, a youth with no future and no real leadership on the ground bar the Dissidents.

Yeah, completely agree to be honest. Very worrying and its things like this that make it pretty much impossible for things to move on. I had always hoped my kids would grow up in a society where that was no more of this shit, but it doesn't look likely.

[Sarge]

Yeah, completely agree to be honest. Very worrying and its things like this that make it pretty much impossible for things to move on. I had always hoped my kids would grow up in a society where that was no more of this shit, but it doesn't look likely.

The Summer months will be vital for the Good Fiday Agreement. SF/Dup need to grow the fuck up and show leadership, I am repeating myself I know but Westminister/The US House of Representativs/Clinton and Leinster House need to put huge pressure on them both to get their fucking act sorted.

Strike while the New IRA have no public support bar its core group. The Donnelly Re-Election is one to watch.

[Something Worse]

Incredible images.

[slaphead]

The Summer months will be vital for the Good Fiday Agreement. SF/Dup need to grow the fuck up and show leadership, I am repeating myself I know but Westminister/The US House of Representativs/Clinton and Leinster House need to put huge pressure on them both to get their fucking act sorted.

Strike while the New IRA have no public support bar its core group. The Donnelly Re-Election is one to watch.

You're spot on though. Summer is always when tensions get high.  The way SF and the DUP carry on, its self serving and they're more concerned about not losing face than they are with the people they are supposed to re-present and be there for. This is where strong leadership, really strong, is needed, and they don't have it. Certainly here the New IRA are on their knees support wise that has to be exploited.

[So… Howard Philips]

You're spot on though. Summer is always when tensions get high.  The way SF and the DUP carry on, its self serving and they're more concerned about not losing face than they are with the people they are supposed to re-present and be there for. This is where strong leadership, really strong, is needed, and they don't have it. Certainly here the New IRA are on their knees support wise that has to be exploited.

Just curious. Now that the Assembly is, still, suspended I assume that the politicians are donating their salaries to help pay off the shortfall caused by Foster's wood burning fisaco?

Or am I being naive.

[Red-Soldier]

I watched a film called '71' the other night.  Thought it was well done.

[slaphead]

Just curious. Now that the Assembly is, still, suspended I assume that the politicians are donating their salaries to help pay off the shortfall caused by Foster's wood burning fisaco?

Or am I being naive.

haha of course they are, the honest people that they are. They have plenty of free time now for lunches and that too, which will be getting expensed.

[Sarge]

I watched a film called '71' the other night.  Thought it was well done.

Yeah it was ok.

[Sarge]

Just curious. Now that the Assembly is, still, suspended I assume that the politicians are donating their salaries to help pay off the shortfall caused by Foster's wood burning fisaco?

Or am I being naive.

Ya silly billy, no pun intended if you're a Billy Boy

[Sarge]

The Priest took no messing today, well said and great place to say it.

[Sarge]

[fowlermagic]

The Priest took no messing today, well said and great place to say it.

I should tread lightly as really dont understand how all parties involved in the mess they have in the north are not all locked into a room in Stormont and stay there until they get a functioning government again. How they are earning a full wage right now two years since the collapse and have the proud record of the region longest ever without a government. They should have all been marched out of the church back to their office and told either buckle down or go without pay.

[Sarge]

I should tread lightly as really dont understand how all parties involved in the mess they have in the north are not all locked into a room in Stormont and stay there until they get a functioning government again. How they are earning a full wage right now two years since the collapse and have the proud record of the region longest ever without a government. They should have all been marched out of the church back to their office and told either buckle down or go without pay.

Not many would disagree.

[So… Howard Philips]

haha of course they are, the honest people that they are. They have plenty of free time now for lunches and that too, which will be getting expensed.

But is Ian Paisley Junior still getting his free holidays? I won't be able to sleep if he has to holiday in Bangor this year!

[slaphead]

But is Ian Paisley Junior still getting his free holidays? I won't be able to sleep if he has to holiday in Bangor this year!

Course he is    I think the Maldives or Mauritius is his latest one. Not happy getting flagged up once he's going for it again, the tube.
The priest was on the money today. SF and the DUP are getting shamed into sorting their shit out, which in itself is,well,shameful that it took this.

[cowtownred]

But is Ian Paisley Junior still getting his free holidays? I won't be able to sleep if he has to holiday in Bangor this year!

Not a nice thing to say I know, but I wouldn't have been overly annoyed if the c*nt had been on one of his budget holidays in Sri Lanka last weekend.

[Sarge]

Not a nice thing to say I know, but I wouldn't have been overly annoyed if the c*nt had been on one of his budget holidays in Sri Lanka last weekend.

Ouch!

[Sarge]

Gary Donnelly topped thw poll in the area where McKee was murdered.

[BobOnATank]

So the CTA has been agreed again but the full GFA legal implementation by the brits is still outstanding...

[BobOnATank]

So anyway, I'm personally in favour but I do support a patient and properly manged approach:

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/1227/1103246-border-poll/

[thejbs]

It would never pass right now. It will be a different matter post Brexit, especially if Scotland get independence this decade. And the greens are correct - the mechanics of any unity must be set out before any vote.

[BobOnATank]

Nobody in their right mind should call a referendum now, it would only do damage (see brexit for obvious idiocy). We need a clear/unambiguous position for people to be able to decide. Luckily Ireland knows how to run referendums.

[Flaccido Dongingo]

The biggest irony of all, is that any United Ireland (if it ever happens) will be because of economic necessity, rather than ideological reasons, and all down to the border down the Irish sea.

[kennedy81]

The biggest irony of all, is that any United Ireland (if it ever happens) will be because of economic necessity, rather than ideological reasons, and all down to the border down the Irish sea.

The biggest irony is that the biggest stumbling block to Irish unity currently, are the people who want it most... Irish nationalists.
Many of them seem determined to constantly alienate the very people they need to be winning over if it's ever to happen.

[west_london_red]

Nobody in their right mind should call a referendum now, it would only do damage (see brexit for obvious idiocy). We need a clear/unambiguous position for people to be able to decide. Luckily Ireland knows how to run referendums.

But Ireland wouldn’t be running the referendum. It would be the UK, and we’re pretty shit at them.

[Jiminy Cricket]

But Ireland wouldn’t be running the referendum. It would be the UK, and we’re pretty shit at them.

Will not the Republic need to run a referendum too? I assume that BobOnATank was referring to this (and obliquely referencing how Ireland has rerun referendums in the past to obtain the answer they would like/need). I know the UK (at least, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, etc.) still likes to think that they continue to rule RoI, but I assume there will be a vote in the both North and South, and they both will have to reply in the affirmative.

[west_london_red]

Will not the Republic need to run a referendum too? I assume that BobOnATank was referring to this (and obliquely referencing how Ireland has rerun referendums in the past to obtain the answer they would like/need). I know the UK (at least, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, etc.) still likes to think that they continue to rule RoI, but I assume there will be a vote in the both North and South, and they both will have to reply in the affirmative.

Yes the RoI will probably need to have a referendum as they seem to be regular party of their government and democracy, but who in the RoI would campaign against NI joining the RoI for it to be anything other then a formality? That would be my only question. Don’t get me wrong, I can see why people would be hesitant in the RoI as the cost of supporting NI for the UK is very high and due o their relative sizes the RoI might struggle with that, but what group in the RoI would actually campaign against unification. Does such a group or party exist there currently?

[Macphisto80]

But Ireland wouldn’t be running the referendum. It would be the UK, and we’re pretty shit at them.

No. It'd be a unilateral decision held by parties of the island of Ireland, as it was written into the Good Friday Agreement. The UK, as in English, Scots, Welsh, would have no say in it. It's a decision for the Irish people of the island of Ireland alone.

Bobonatank is right, though. It'd be a big mistake to hold one so early. There's a lot of convincing to do, but a couple of years of living in a post Brexit disaster should convince a fair few north and south, that's for sure.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Yes the RoI will probably need to have a referendum as they seem to be regular party of their government and democracy, but who in the RoI would campaign against NI joining the RoI for it to be anything other then a formality? That would be my only question. Don’t get me wrong, I can see why people would be hesitant in the RoI as the cost of supporting NI for the UK is very high and due o their relative sizes the RoI might struggle with that, but what group in the RoI would actually campaign against unification. Does such a group or party exist there currently?

Yeah, quite a lot of people would vote against it in the South for financial reasons. That calculation might change post Brexit - depends on a lot of things, I guess. I don't know this as a fact, but I expect one of the biggest problems will be the size/proportion of the British national debt NI will be expected to shoulder if it leaves the UK - The South will not be keen about taking on further debt. And, in a post-Brexit Republic, where they are likely to be hit nearly as hard as the UK, they might not be able to afford it. Or, that could be the calculus at least. I'd like to hear from Irish members about what the feeling is these days.

[west_london_red]

No. It'd be a unilateral decision held by parties of the island of Ireland, as it was written into the Good Friday Agreement. The UK, as in English, Scots, Welsh, would have no say in it. It's a decision for the Irish people of the island of Ireland alone.

Bobonatank is right, though. It'd be a big mistake to hold one so early. There's a lot of convincing to do, but a couple of years of living in a post Brexit disaster should convince a fair few north and south, that's for sure.

Ok, thats interesting. I assumed a vote in NI would be similar to the one in Scotland, the rest of the UK wouldn’t have a say, but it would be conducted by the UK government as NI is part of the UK.

[west_london_red]

Yeah, quite a lot of people would vote against it in the South for financial reasons. That calculation might change post Brexit - depends on a lot of things, I guess. I don't know this as a fact, but I expect one of the biggest problems will be the size/proportion of the British national debt NI will be expected to shoulder if it leaves the UK - The South will not be keen about taking on further debt. And, in a post-Brexit Republic, where they are likely to be hit nearly as hard as the UK, they might not be able to afford it. Or, that could be the calculus at least. I'd like to hear from Irish members about what the feeling is these days.

I read an article a few weeks back on the cost to the UK government of having NI in the UK versus the UK in the EU. The current net cost to the UK of supporting NI is about 20% of the RoI’s total government expenditure.

[kennedy81]

Yeah, quite a lot of people would vote against it in the South for financial reasons. That calculation might change post Brexit - depends on a lot of things, I guess. I don't know this as a fact, but I expect one of the biggest problems will be the size/proportion of the British national debt NI will be expected to shoulder if it leaves the UK - The South will not be keen about taking on further debt. And, in a post-Brexit Republic, where they are likely to be hit nearly as hard as the UK, they might not be able to afford it. Or, that could be the calculus at least. I'd like to hear from Irish members about what the feeling is these days.

To be honest, I suspect the main thrust of the debate in the south would not even be around economic considerations. The economic arguments aren't insignificant, but as a small country, our economy is largely tied to how well the EU/US/UK and global economy in general, is doing.
It's a very emotive subject, and its historical and cultural significance would take center stage. Unity would be a profoundly big deal and has massive ramifications, that I'm not sure a lot of people have even considered or are ready for. It would require a re-thinking of what sort of country we are, who we even are, and where we are going. There would be a lot of very emotive campaigning and that's when it gets messy.
Having watched brexit over the last few years, a ref on Irish unity is not something I have much appetite for right now.

I'm on the fence personally. I'm an optimist, so I'd like to think it could work. But there is also potential for making a horrendous mess that could take generations to untangle. I'd have to hear a lot more pro and con arguments before I decided. It's a massively complex thing.