Topic: Saudi Arabia has severed ties with Qatar

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I never knew that they had squirrels in Saudi Arabia.

[LFC when it suits]

Well I'm confused... I thought the Saudis were the big supporters of Wahabbist terrorism and were trying to turn the screws on Iran, so this is all a bit hard to follow.

That's the biggest myth around. "Wahabbists" (which really mean salafis) are at the forefront of fighting against terrorism (including in the UK) and refuting the twisted ideology behind it. They are ultra conservative, but with regards to terrorism, they have been against these groups for a long time.

[RedBootsTommySmith]

The divisions between Qatar and the Saudis have been there a while. This one touches lightly on it tangentially:
http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/why-saudi-rulers-need-foreign-approval-621030574

That seems a pretty decent news source, ex-Guardian guys, I believe. Anyone on here more familiar with them?

[redbyrdz]

Wondering is this is prepping for a new war in the middle east.

[zero zero]

That's the biggest myth around. "Wahabbists" (which really mean salafis) are at the forefront of fighting against terrorism (including in the UK) and refuting the twisted ideology behind it. They are ultra conservative, but with regards to terrorism, they have been against these groups for a long time.

That is confusing. If you look up Salafi Movement on wikipedia, under Prominent Salafis you get (in alphabetical order):

Anjem Choudary, 21st-century British Salafi figure
Anwar al-Awlaki, leader of American/Yemeni terror group Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP)
Mohammed Yusuf (Boko Haram), Nigerian Muslim
Abu Bakar Bashir, leader of Indonesian terror group (Jema'ah Islamiyah)
Omar Bakri Muhammad, 21st-century Salafi Jihadist preacher
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, leader of terrorist group (Islamic State, known as ISIS, ISIL, IS, Daesh)
Osama bin Laden, Saudi Arabian cleric who developed and led the terror group (Al-Qaeda)

They're just the ones I've heard of. Is it really the "biggest myth going" and they've been fighting terrorism all along?

[The North Bank]

I think this is all to do with Qatar refusing to follow the US/Saudi policy regarding Iran.

[classycarra]

This seems pertinent to recent discussions:

https://twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/871427567949139968

[LFC when it suits]

That is confusing. If you look up Salafi Movement on wikipedia, under Prominent Salafis you get (in alphabetical order):

Anjem Choudary, 21st-century British Salafi figure
Anwar al-Awlaki, leader of American/Yemeni terror group Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP)
Mohammed Yusuf (Boko Haram), Nigerian Muslim
Abu Bakar Bashir, leader of Indonesian terror group (Jema'ah Islamiyah)
Omar Bakri Muhammad, 21st-century Salafi Jihadist preacher
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, leader of terrorist group (Islamic State, known as ISIS, ISIL, IS, Daesh)
Osama bin Laden, Saudi Arabian cleric who developed and led the terror group (Al-Qaeda)

They're just the ones I've heard of. Is it really the "biggest myth going" and they've been fighting terrorism all along?

It's a big myth. There is a good book called the Wahabbi Myth which refutes this myth. Salafi is a term which refers to a person who follows the religion of Islam with the understanding of the 3 earliest generations (the salaf). "Wahabbi" is a term that the West and Western Media have used to label salafis (after Muhammed ibn Abdulwahab). No "wahabbi" calls himself a "wahabbi". Rather, they will call themselves "salafi". As Saudis are ultra conservative makes it is easy for the West to associate it with terrorism.

No one from the names that you posted would be considered to be salafi (wahabbi) by those who are aware of the ideological difference between different sects. A List of prominent salafi figures of recent times would include the likes of Salih Al Fawzaan (Saudi), Abdulaziz Ibn Baaz (Saudi), Nasirudeen Al Albani, Ibn Uthaymeen (Saudi), Rabee ibn Hadi Al Madkhali (Saudi) who all warn/warned against these terrorist activities and the deviant ideologies behind them (Many before 9/11). In the UK, at the forefront of condemning terrorism and refuting the evil ideology behind it, you have the likes of Salafi Publications (Abu Khadeejah Abdul Wahid, Abu Hakim Bilal Davies, Abu Iyaad etc. Here are some links from "Wahabbis" and their actual position on these acts.

http://www.spubs.com/sps/sLF/sLF.cfm?sc=channel&CID=3

http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sp.cfm?secID=MNJ&subsecID=MNJ14&loadpage=displaysubsection.cfm


As for funding "terrorism", all governments have been funding/backing different groups in conflicts in the Middle east to advance their interests in the middle east (Both Gulf and Western Nations)

[KiNki]

I think this is all to do with Qatar refusing to follow the US/Saudi policy regarding Iran.

i'd wager you are correct

[SP]

It's a big myth. There is a good book called the Wahabbi Myth which refutes this myth. Salafi is a term which refers to a person who follows the religion of Islam with the understanding of the 3 earliest generations (the salaf). "Wahabbi" is a term that the West and Western Media have used to label salafis (after Muhammed ibn Abdulwahab). No "wahabbi" calls himself a "wahabbi". Rather, they will call themselves "salafi". As Saudis are ultra conservative makes it is easy for the West to associate it with terrorism.

No one from the names that you posted would be considered to be salafi (wahabbi) by those who are aware of the ideological difference between different sects. A List of prominent salafi figures of recent times would include the likes of Salih Al Fawzaan (Saudi), Abdulaziz Ibn Baaz (Saudi), Nasirudeen Al Albani, Ibn Uthaymeen (Saudi), Rabee ibn Hadi Al Madkhali (Saudi) who all warn/warned against these terrorist activities and the deviant ideologies behind them (Many before 9/11). In the UK, at the forefront of condemning terrorism and refuting the evil ideology behind it, you have the likes of Salafi Publications (Abu Khadeejah Abdul Wahid, Abu Hakim Bilal Davies, Abu Iyaad etc. Here are some links from "Wahabbis" and their actual position on these acts.

http://www.spubs.com/sps/sLF/sLF.cfm?sc=channel&CID=3

http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sp.cfm?secID=MNJ&subsecID=MNJ14&loadpage=displaysubsection.cfm

So you are redefining the terms to exclude all the people who do bad things. The terrorists we are referring to here do self identify as Salafi. It is sophistry to relabel the problem sects.

[LFC when it suits]

So you are redefining the terms to exclude all the people who do bad things. The terrorists we are referring to here do self identify as Salafi. It is sophistry to relabel the problem sects.

Where have I done such thing? Show me evidence where those mentioned self identify as Wahabbi or Salafi and I will retract my post.

[gqP6w]

Where have I done such thing? Show me evidence where those mentioned self identify as Wahabbi or Salafi and I will retract my post.

Zero zero has posted a list

[kennedy81]

This seems pertinent to recent discussions:

https://twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/871427567949139968

Cheers. This was an interesting distinction:

Arieh Kovler‏ @ariehkovler 23h23 hours ago

Saudi supports extremism, as does Qatar and other gulf states. Iran supports Hezbollah and Assad, the biggest drivers of radicalisation.

[LFC when it suits]

Zero zero has posted a list

I saw the list he posted. I said show me where those names listed self identify as Wahabbi/salafi and I will admit I was wrong.

[So… Howard Philips]

I thought they were Sunni ?

Undoubtedly. Hence their stand off with the major Shia power, Iran.

[SP]

I saw the list he posted. I said show me where those names listed self identify as Wahabbi/salafi and I will admit I was wrong.

Omar Bakri Muhammad talking in favour of Salafi jihad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fm9ZBXnmpo

Before I became a Salafi I believed that Velayat al-Faqih as a principle can facilitate the unity of the Shias and the Sunnis. However at that time most senior Shia leaders, people like Ayatollah Al-Kho’ee, rejected the principle and this undermined its potential.

https://jamestown.org/interview/al-muhajiroun-in-the-uk-an-interview-with-sheikh-omar-bakri-mohammed/

[Yorkykopite]

What a pity we can't cut our ties with both of these wretched places.

[bahrainexpat]

Undoubtedly. Hence their stand off with the major Shia power, Iran.

There is a Shia majority in the Eastern Province (where a lot of the oil is). Google Qatif massacre.

[LFC when it suits]

Omar Bakri Muhammad talking in favour of Salafi jihad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fm9ZBXnmpo

https://jamestown.org/interview/al-muhajiroun-in-the-uk-an-interview-with-sheikh-omar-bakri-mohammed/

That's one case. Do you have any evidence for the others that you claim self identify?

The funny thing is that the likes of Anjem Choudary and Omar Bakri consider the Saudi Government and even some Saudi religious authroities to be non muslims yet they are supposed to be following the brand of wahabbism and salafism exported by Saudi Arabia.

[SP]

That's one case. Do you have any evidence for the others that you claim self identify?

The funny thing is that the likes of Anjem Choudary and Omar Bakri consider the Saudi Government and even some Saudi religious authroities to be non muslims yet they are supposed to be following the brand of wahabbism and salafism exported by Saudi Arabia.

I saw the list he posted. I said show me where those names listed self identify as Wahabbi/salafi and I will admit I was wrong.

I picked one name at random, proved your assertion wrong.

[kingz]

That is confusing. If you look up Salafi Movement on wikipedia, under Prominent Salafis you get (in alphabetical order):

Anjem Choudary, 21st-century British Salafi figure
Anwar al-Awlaki, leader of American/Yemeni terror group Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP)
Mohammed Yusuf (Boko Haram), Nigerian Muslim
Abu Bakar Bashir, leader of Indonesian terror group (Jema'ah Islamiyah)
Omar Bakri Muhammad, 21st-century Salafi Jihadist preacher
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, leader of terrorist group (Islamic State, known as ISIS, ISIL, IS, Daesh)
Osama bin Laden, Saudi Arabian cleric who developed and led the terror group (Al-Qaeda)

They're just the ones I've heard of. Is it really the "biggest myth going" and they've been fighting terrorism all along?

Just think about it a little.. Al-Baghdadi for example, he is considered a Salafi by the media .. Yet he is not located in a Salafi country?.. in his speeches he calls for ISIS followers to attack Salafi/Wahhabi countries? ISIS&AlQaeda attacked Salafi countries more than any other country ?..
all the Salafi religious figures in Salafi countries consider them non Muslims ?.. 

Just search about Saad bin Laden or Saif al-Adel and see who shelterd them ..

[LFC when it suits]

I picked one name at random, proved your assertion wrong.

Fair enough. I admit I was wrong with regards with them self identifying. However, the views that he holds are not in line with those of Saudi Arabia or mainstream Saudi religious authorities or figures who are supposed to be exporting terrorisim and the ideology behind it to the world. That much is clear. As I mentioned before, many of those names listed consider the Saudi leaders to be non muslims.

[kingz]

Omar Bakri Muhammad talking in favour of Salafi jihad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fm9ZBXnmpo

https://jamestown.org/interview/al-muhajiroun-in-the-uk-an-interview-with-sheikh-omar-bakri-mohammed/

He is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood .. Salafi countries consider them a terrorist organization  ..

Just last year
Nineteen on trial in UAE for ‘ties to Muslim Brotherhood’
http://m.thenational.ae/uae/courts/nineteen-on-trial-in-uae-for-ties-to-muslim-brotherhood

Also

Egypt issues life sentence for Muslim Brotherhood chief
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/05/egypt-issues-life-sentence-muslim-brotherhood-chief-170508151622974.html

Saudi Arabia declares Muslim Brotherhood 'terrorist group'
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26487092

[SP]

Many sects believe that they have the exclusive hotline to God, and all others are apostates. A group of Salafis rejecting them does not preclude them self identifying as the true Salafis. Indeed, self described Salafis are the worst people to make an objective assessment of another sect.

[zero zero]

No one from the names that you posted would be considered to be salafi (wahabbi) by those who are aware of the ideological difference between different sects.

Fair enough. I admit I was wrong with regards with them self-identifying. However, the views that he holds are not in line with those of Saudi Arabia or mainstream Saudi religious authorities or figures who are supposed to be exporting terrorism and the ideology behind it to the world. That much is clear.

This is a familiar argument. Whenever an Islamist shouts "Allahu Akbar!" poor to committing their terrorist acts, we're later told that they're not really Muslims and their acts have "nothing to do with Islam". Here we are again then, with the argument that these people on a list of Prominent Salafis are not really Salafis. I understand why the scholars you've mentioned might want to distance themselves from that list.

I think the more pertinent question is whether the people in question consider themselves to be Salafis. I suspect they'd be able to show why their actions make them "good" Salafis. I appreciate you've posted your links in good faith, but in the current climate there's I won't be clicking on anything with Salafi in the title. Feel free to post a relevant passage.

As I mentioned before, many of those names listed consider the Saudi leaders to be non muslims.

Who's right?

[TepidT2O]

[Giono]

This seems pertinent to recent discussions:

https://twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/871427567949139968

He says to mistrust anyone who blames the Saudis for terrorism when it is really Iran... Were there any Iranians that flew those planes into the WTC? Was it an Iranian mastermind that planned it? No, they were Saudis.

When it comes to the Middle East the BS flies in all directions. His is just another brand.

[Giono]

What a pity we can't cut our ties with both of these wretched places.

What would really help is if we all got off fossil fuels...it would starve the regimes in the Middle east, Russia and Texas.

Trump too: His Secretary of State is a Texan former CEO pf Exxonmobile and not ironically, Trump's first trip was to Saudi Arabia.



 

[classycarra]

He says to mistrust anyone who blames the Saudis for terrorism when it is really Iran... Were there any Iranians that flew those planes into the WTC? Was it an Iranian mastermind.

When it comes to the Middle East the BS flies in all directions. His is just another brand.

What a fantastic strawman argument!

You seem to have misunderstood his arguments weren't absolute, and obviously don't apply as a blanket across the citizens of each of the countries named -

[kingz]

He says to mistrust anyone who blames the Saudis for terrorism when it is really Iran... Were there any Iranians that flew those planes into the WTC? Was it an Iranian mastermind that planned it? No, they were Saudis.

When it comes to the Middle East the BS flies in all directions. His is just another brand.

Last year alone, Saudi Arabia faced a total of 34 attacks on its soil from a number of extremist groups.

But Saudi security forces said eight operations were conducted that “foiled serious terrorist attacks while 12 terrorist operations have failed to achieve their intended goals”.

The outcomes of those efforts have led to the following outcomes:

-The protection of one million Muslims at the Prophet’s Mosque.
-The protection of 60,000 spectators at the al-Jawhara Stadium in Jeddah.
-The protection 400 civilians at al-Seef Restaurant and Café in Tarot.
-190 arrests of ISIS-affiliated terrorists.
-The tactical prevention of seven suicide attacks targeting a number of mosques in the Eastern province.


^ Just 2016 only .. You dont see this in the media or the religious figures efforts to warn against ISIS to all Muslims around the world. Its amazing that the country who suffered most because of terrorists, a country that Al-Qaeda and ISIS leaders encourage their followers to attack is considered the supporter of terrorism ..


Egyptians did the terrorist operations in Egypt .. Egyptian government supporting terrorism ?.. No,
Qatar is sheltering leaders of the Brotherhood who targeted security and safety of Egypt by conducting terrorist operations .. An Egyptian, Saudi , Pakistani conducting attacks doesn't mean their countries support terrorism ..


https://youtu.be/5Gd_CHX_yoY

[Mumm-Ra]

Damn - you've got to hand it to them, that is a pretty great kidnapping right there.

[dalarr]

Since I read "The Crusades Through Arab Eyes" by Amin Maalouf, I've given up on understanding how the Middle East works. I've been reading this thread and articles but to no avail. I don't understand how some of you seem to have worked it all out.

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

FT:

"Doha spent the money in a transaction that secured the release of 26 members of a Qatari hunting party in southern Iraq and about 50 militants captured by jihadis in Syria."

"Around $700m was paid both to Iranian figures and the regional Shia militias they support, according to regional government officials. They added that $200m to $300m went to Islamist groups in Syria, most of that to Tahrir al-Sham, a group with links to al-Qaeda."

[kingz]

Since I read "The Crusades Through Arab Eyes" by Amin Maalouf, I've given up on understanding how the Middle East works. I've been reading this thread and articles but to no avail. I don't understand how some of you seem to have worked it all out.

Yes its really complicated.. Not only the problems between countries but also the fight of big companies who control governments.. Its way bigger than anyone can imagine.. Just an example : https://youtu.be/XKY_i08qeYI

[Zeb]

Trump oks everyone pointing at Qatar. Even though his own DoD were blindsided by it when asked about US troops based there. Also:

The FBI recently sent a team of investigators to Doha to help the Qatari government investigate the alleged hacking incident, Qatari and US government officials say.

Intelligence gathered by the US security agencies indicates that Russian hackers were behind the intrusion first reported by the Qatari government two weeks ago, US officials say. Qatar hosts one of the largest US military bases in the region.

The alleged involvement of Russian hackers intensifies concerns by US intelligence and law enforcement agencies that Russia continues to try some of the same cyber-hacking measures on US allies that intelligence agencies believe it used to meddle in the 2016 elections.

US officials say the Russian goal appears to be to cause rifts among the US and its allies. In recent months, suspected Russian cyber activities, including the use of fake news stories, have turned up amid elections in France, Germany and other countries.

It's not yet clear whether the US has tracked the hackers in the Qatar incident to Russian criminal organizations or to the Russian security services blamed for the US election hacks. One official noted that based on past intelligence, "not much happens in that country without the blessing of the government."

The FBI and CIA declined to comment. A spokeswoman for the Qatari embassy in Washington said the investigation is ongoing and its results would be released publicly soon.

The Qatari government has said a May 23 news report on its Qatar News Agency attributed false remarks to the nation's ruler that appeared friendly to Iran and Israel and questioned whether President Donald Trump would last in office.

Qatari Foreign Minister Sheikh Mohammed Bin Abdulrahman al-Thani told CNN the FBI has confirmed the hack and the planting of fake news.

"Whatever has been thrown as an accusation is all based on misinformation and we think that the entire crisis being based on misinformation," the foreign minister told CNN's Becky Anderson. "Because it was started based on fabricated news, being wedged and being inserted in our national news agency which was hacked and proved by the FBI."

Sheikh Saif Bin Ahmed Al-Thani, director of the Qatari Government Communications Office, confirmed that Qatar's Ministry of Interior is working with the FBI and the United Kingdom's National Crime Agency on the ongoing hacking investigation of the Qatar News Agency.

"The Ministry of Interior will reveal the findings of the investigation when completed," he told CNN.

This is getting deeply, deeply odd.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/06/politics/russian-hackers-planted-fake-news-qatar-crisis/index.html

[bigbonedrawky]

Trump oks everyone pointing at Qatar. Even though his own DoD were blindsided by it when asked about US troops based there. Also:

This is getting deeply, deeply odd.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/06/politics/russian-hackers-planted-fake-news-qatar-crisis/index.html

Have you watched Oh Dearism by Adam Curtis

[Zeb]

Have you watched Oh Dearism by Adam Curtis

Probably. Know any songs from it? I tend to drift off after Adam's first sentence or two. Usually has a great soundtrack though.

[bigbonedrawky]

Probably. Know any songs from it? I tend to drift off after Adam's first sentence or two. Usually has a great soundtrack though.

Funny you say that I tried watching Bitter Lake about 5 times and kept falling asleep before the end.
My lad puts Snooker on to go to sleep

[Zeb]

Funny you say that I tried watching Bitter Lake about 5 times and kept falling asleep before the end.
My lad puts Snooker on to go to sleep

Bitter Lake introduced me to Burial. I like Adam's work in terms of montage and use of music, but I find his analysis very thin and sometimes stretches the truth to the point of breaking. But old criticisms of his work. Think there's a thread in the Media part of the forum.

But as relates to the CNN story, there's obviously dysfunction within the US government crashing into dick waggling among the Gulf States. Oh dear. But that the Qatar hack used as a pretext has legitimate legs as a Russian hack is quite something. More 'what the fuck?' than 'oh dear, what a shame'. Anyways. Back to sleep and hoping one of the lads from the Gulf area can chip in with something to make sense of it a bit more.

[puroresu_kid]

Turkey are going back into the Arab pinnisula for the first time in nearly 100 years.

500 troops to be stationed at the Qatar border as well as armored vehicles.