Author Topic: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)  (Read 177099 times)

Offline vagabond

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1200 on: January 29, 2020, 07:30:27 pm »
I know they weren’t consulted.

I haven’t chided anyone.  I just stated that people would be churlish not to talk.

You should always talk.

They haven't been invited to talk. They've been told what the deal is and they have rejected it. This wasn't a negotiation.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1201 on: January 29, 2020, 07:34:20 pm »
They haven't been invited to talk. They've been told what the deal is and they have rejected it. This wasn't a negotiation.
Every deal is the potential starting point for negotiation.

They were always going to reject this deal, of course they were.  But when someone puts a deal on the table it means there’s something to negotiate.

What have you got to lose?
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Offline classycarra

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Offline vagabond

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1203 on: January 29, 2020, 07:39:43 pm »
Every deal is the potential starting point for negotiation.

They were always going to reject this deal, of course they were.  But when someone puts a deal on the table it means there’s something to negotiate.

What have you got to lose?

Of course Palestinians should be willing to talk. But talks should only begin after their rights to human dignity and sovereignty are red lines that will not be crossed by the opposing party. We're not there yet. Nobody should be so demeaned that they are forced to talk their way into being treated as equal humans.

Besides, why are you assuming that Trump and co are interested in genuine good faith negotiations? This is just a distraction and another line to add to his re-election campaign. Same with Netanyahu facing corruption charges himself.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1204 on: January 29, 2020, 07:46:29 pm »
Of course Palestinians should be willing to talk. But talks should only begin after their rights to human dignity and sovereignty are red lines that will not be crossed by the opposing party. We're not there yet. Nobody should be so demeaned that they are forced to talk their way into being treated as equal humans.

Besides, why are you assuming that Trump and co are interested in genuine good faith negotiations? This is just a distraction and another line to add to his re-election campaign. Same with Netanyahu facing corruption charges himself.
No I’m not assuming that.  You seem to have come up with a whole load of assumptions that I’ve made which have no basis.

But trump won’t be there for ever.  If you talk? You never know.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline vagabond

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1205 on: January 29, 2020, 07:48:21 pm »
No I’m not assuming that.  You seem to have come up with a whole load of assumptions that I’ve made which have no basis.

But trump won’t be there for ever.  If you talk? You never know.

So who are they supposed to be talking to at this moment? Why tell them to talk at all if it's better to wait for a more sane administration anyway?
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
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because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
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Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1206 on: January 29, 2020, 11:17:59 pm »
Who equated them?

If you're not equating, then why bring Hamas up at all?



You made a sly dig at jews - "a certain group" - not israel


In a thread about Israel, I'm hardly likely to be referring to anyone else. Stop being paranoid.


I guess I'm just hyper aware of it from you, since you've previously implied that antisemitism in the UK has been manufactured as some part of conspiracy

You can give over with that shite.

What I've said is that the only examples of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party I've seen in all the articles I've read on the subject are either propagation of age-old tropes/memes about Jews; or criticism of Israel in some form or other. And I've stated that these have been used as political weapons by foes of both Labour and the Corbyn section of the Party.

If you want to interpret that as me fostering conspiracy theories, then tis yourself seeing conspiracy where there is none.
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Offline cloggypop

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1207 on: January 29, 2020, 11:57:16 pm »
Every deal is the potential starting point for negotiation.

They were always going to reject this deal, of course they were.  But when someone puts a deal on the table it means there’s something to negotiate.

What have you got to lose?
The Jordan Valley by the looks of it.

Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1208 on: January 30, 2020, 12:25:32 am »
Comments from the genius behind all this:

Quote
"You have 5 million Palestinians who are really trapped because of bad leadership. So what we have done is we've created an opportunity for their leadership to either seize or not," Kushner told CNN. "If they screw up this opportunity — which again, they have a perfect track record of missing opportunities. If they screw this up, I think that they will have a very hard time looking the international community in the face, saying they're victims — saying they have rights. This is a great deal for them." - Jared Kushner on CNN
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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1209 on: January 30, 2020, 12:47:11 am »
Comments from the genius behind all this:


:lmao


Offline GreatEx

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1210 on: January 30, 2020, 02:23:21 am »
He comes across as very fair and unbiased. And you all thought he was an unqualified twat benefiting from shameless nepotism!

Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1211 on: January 30, 2020, 08:02:36 am »
He comes across as very fair and unbiased. And you all thought he was an unqualified twat benefiting from shameless nepotism!

Trevor Noah nails Kushner for giving the Palestinians some respect.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/trevor-noah-mocks-participation-trophy-husband-jared-kushners-mideast-peace-deal-i-spent-two-hours-at-kinkos-so-yeah-its-a-good-plan/
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Offline KillieRed

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1212 on: January 30, 2020, 08:20:10 am »
Nothing wrong with somebody Jewish trying to broker a genuine and lasting peace. Kushner's problem is the obvious and explicit contempt he holds for Palestinians.

Well, the trouble is, as they say in modern politcal parlance, "the optics". There`s going to be distrust from the start from the palestinians.

And as you said, the sheer cheek of the language of Kushner speaking as if he was doing them a favour.
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1213 on: January 30, 2020, 08:57:05 am »
He comes across as very fair and unbiased. And you all thought he was an unqualified twat benefiting from shameless nepotism!

In think he is a grossly under rated diplomatic genius. He can't help being married to POTUS's daughter.

Offline RedGuy

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1214 on: January 30, 2020, 09:21:20 am »
To be fair, the Palestinian leadership really has screwed up some good opportunities in the past.
We won't get anywhere near peace with the current Palestinian leadership (same goes for the current Israeli and American leadership mind you).

Offline The North Bank

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1215 on: January 30, 2020, 01:34:57 pm »
Just another publicity stunt by 2 morally and financially corrupt leaders who want to look like they are working for peace before general elections that will hopefully get rid of both.

Offline gamble

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1216 on: February 20, 2020, 04:21:20 pm »
Shootings by far right racist in Germany yesterday, racist stabbing a 70 year old in a mosque today. Hmmm

Offline rawcusk8

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1217 on: February 20, 2020, 09:38:35 pm »
Shootings by far right racist in Germany yesterday, racist stabbing a 70 year old in a mosque today. Hmmm
Were the perpetrators mentally ill?
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1218 on: February 20, 2020, 09:53:14 pm »
Shootings by far right racist in Germany yesterday, racist stabbing a 70 year old in a mosque today. Hmmm

There's no evidence at the moment that the London attack was racist.

Offline rawcusk8

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1219 on: February 20, 2020, 10:31:15 pm »
There's no evidence at the moment that the London attack was racist.
The attack in a mosque don’t seem racist to you? Maybe it was a neighbor who was pissed at the noise or maybe as said above the poor guy was down on his luck and mentally ill  ::)
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Offline classycarra

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1220 on: February 21, 2020, 12:12:28 am »
The attack in a mosque don’t seem racist to you?
Er, unless you're seeing news I'm not then no. Not yet anyway. Where are you getting it's racist? Is it just because it took place in a Mosque that you're assuming this?

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1221 on: February 21, 2020, 01:58:14 pm »
Er, unless you're seeing news I'm not then no. Not yet anyway. Where are you getting it's racist? Is it just because it took place in a Mosque that you're assuming this?
The latest is police are saying it is not terror related.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1222 on: February 24, 2020, 06:03:07 pm »
Sick bastards.


‘This is a war crime’: Video of IDF bulldozer dragging body of Palestinian man in Gaza sparks outrage

Those of you that get triggered by Rawstory can jump straight to the video.


Twitter link to video

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Offline The North Bank

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1223 on: February 24, 2020, 09:18:07 pm »
Wish I never watched that, absolutely horrendous, wont change a thing though.
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Offline RedGuy

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1224 on: February 25, 2020, 03:12:36 pm »

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1225 on: February 26, 2020, 08:17:00 am »

You think that's bad, read this ... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/25/parade-of-nazis-in-spanish-carnival-sparks-furious-criticism

...a troupe danced through the streets of a small town dressed as Nazi officers and concentration camp prisoners, accompanied by a float bearing a menorah and two crematorium chimneys.



To think someone sat down and thought "I've got this great idea for a carnival float" and nobody said "err, hang on a mo".
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1226 on: February 26, 2020, 09:09:20 am »
What the actual fuck
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51612541

Belgium is a country invented by the British to annoy the French.
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1227 on: February 26, 2020, 11:53:42 am »
Good job the IDF weren't in town as they'd have shot them all and claimed self defence.
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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1228 on: February 26, 2020, 11:58:19 am »
Good job the IDF weren't in town as they'd have shot them all and claimed self defence.

Unlikely. The Inquistion and Franco managed to expel all of Spain's Jews, or in Franco's case kill all of the left wing ones, as well as any other non Jewish left wingers and trade unionists.

Obviously Francoist Fascism is alive and well in parts of Spain.

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1229 on: March 7, 2020, 03:44:13 am »
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/closure-palestinian-bakery-jerusalem-matters-200305084546273.html

Spoiler

On the rare occasions that the Israeli authorities afford me a permit to visit Jerusalem, my mother always insists that I bring her a stack of "ka'ak al-Quds" (ka'ak of Jerusalem).

Ka'ak is an ovular bread coated in a generous layer of sesame seeds. It is widely available across Palestine and also in Ramallah, where we live. But for most Palestinians, Jerusalem's ka'ak is a unique delicacy. Like my mother, I also ask friends who get a chance to visit Jerusalem to bring me batches of ka'ak al-Quds - not only because it tastes particularly good, but because it carries with it a part of Jerusalem's cultural history.

On February 19, Israeli police raided and shut down a 60-year-old Palestinian bakery and arrested its young owner, Nasser Abu Sneina. Anyone who roamed the quarters of the Old City have likely passed by this old bakery and enjoyed the warm aroma of baking bread emanating from it. It is near the Bab Hutta neighbourhood, which was a central location during the 2017 Palestinian protests against Israeli surveillance measures.

The Israeli authorities claimed that the bakery was shut down because it failed to adhere to the required health standards. Many Palestinians, however, say the bakery was targeted simply because it distributed bread to worshippers heading to al-Aqsa Mosque.

Jerusalem's ka'ak and the bakeries that sell it are - in part - symbols of the city's Palestinian identity. A Palestinian bakery distributing ka'ak to worshippers on the way to the Al-Aqsa Mosque is a threat to the Israeli authorities because it is an overt demonstration of Palestinian solidarity. It shows that Palestinians are not only still at the heart of the city but are also willing to empower each other in the face of Israeli oppression.

They remind the world, and the Israelis, that Jerusalem is a Palestinian city.

This is the real reason why Abu Sneina's bakery, and many other establishments like it, have been forced into closure by the Israeli authorities.

More than 50 shops were forced to close down in Jerusalem in recent years as a result of financial pressures and the constant restrictions on movement that make running a business challenging.

The closure of this bakery was only the latest chapter in the larger, systematic assault on Palestinian presence in Jerusalem generally and in the Old City specifically. Israel is trying to force all Palestinians out using several methods, from making their day-to-day lives unbearable with the ubiquitous presence of armed soldiers to allowing the settlers overtake the city, quarter by quarter.   

Palestinians in Jerusalem are living with the constant threat of humiliating body searches, home evictions, withdrawal of residency, or assault from either Israeli settlers or Israeli forces - be it police or army.

Especially in the Old City, on top of the occupation's overt aggressions such as arbitrary arrests, superfluous prosecutions, movement restrictions and unjust closures of businesses, Palestinians are being forced to navigate a bureaucracy designed solely to give legal backing to the attempts to kick them out.

The Israeli authorities require Palestinian establishments to acquire a wide range of permits and papers to remain in business. For many Palestinian business owners, however, it is both too expensive and difficult to obtain these documents.

The unreasonable pressures put on Palestinians residing in Jerusalem sometimes reach such levels that they are forced to do things that people elsewhere in the world would find hard to believe.

Just last month, for example, a Palestinian man living in Jerusalem demolished his own home following an order by the Israeli municipality. He took the matter into his own hands because he wanted to avoid the exorbitant costs that he would face if he allowed the municipality itself to carry out the demolition.

Israel is going to great lengths to push Palestinians out of Jerusalem because of the significance the city holds for the Palestinian struggle - it not only has religious value, but it is the historical, cultural and political epicentre of Palestinian life.

US President Donald Trump's 2017 decision to declare Jerusalem the capital of Israel and move his country's embassy there provided some significant political backing to Israeli claims that the city belongs to them.

Nevertheless, Israel knows that it can not declare Jerusalem a solely "Israeli city" while Palestinians continue to live there and keep the city's Palestinian identity alive. From the spice and sweet shops scattered around the Old City, to the old cassette shop that has been open since 1973, to the sound of Palestinian children chuckling in the alleyways, Jerusalem is still very much a Palestinian city.

This is why the Israeli authorities are targeting bakeries like the one owned by Abu Sneina.

We Palestinians, are not being pushed out of our ancestral lands and cities through demolitions, settlements, arbitrary revoking of residence permits or bullets only. We are also being pushed out by a systematic effort to make it impossible for us to exercise our own ways of living in our own country. Israel is trying to erase Palestinian culture and identity from the streets, bazaars, bakeries and restaurants.

This has been going on for a very long time. Ein Kerem, for example, was once a Palestinian village in Jerusalem. Today, it is - mostly - home to upper-class Israelis. Walking through it feels like walking through an Israeli settlement, not a Palestinian village.

Of course, Israel knows it cannot erase all of Jerusalem's history and tradition. So sometimes it tries to appropriate aspects of Palestinian culture as its own.

This is why falafel are now being sold as Israel's national snack, even though the dish is older than the state. And this is why across the world restaurants have "Israeli shakshuka" and "Israeli tabbouleh" on their menus. 

For outside observers, the labelling of an old Palestinian dish as "Israeli" or the closing down of a bakery for "health and safety" reasons may seem like trivial issues.

However, for us Palestinians, these actions are not separate from home demolitions, displacements, illegal detentions, and curfews. They just represent a different part of the occupation - these are attempts to erase our culture, our way of life, from our cities and streets alongside our physical bodies.

[close]

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1230 on: May 15, 2020, 03:58:26 pm »
Who equated them?

You made a sly dig at jews - "a certain group" - not israel

I guess I'm just hyper aware of it from you, since you've previously implied that antisemitism in the UK has been manufactured as some part of conspiracy - and I like to challenge that kind of pseudo conspiracy/potential bigotry. Does that make me like a Trumper?
I've spoke with some of the "Trumpers" who got involved with the Corbynaters and although you use the same language and phrases verbatim. I dont think your a "Trumper".
  It's one thing reading often repeated phrases on here for example but when you actually hear these phrases shouted over and over again by hyper aware souls like yourself ...
 It sounds like propaganda and it feels like a cult.

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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1232 on: January 12, 2021, 01:09:15 pm »
Israel is a non-democratic apartheid regime, says rights group

Embassy spokesperson rejects ‘false claims’ in report that alleges policies perpetuate supremacy of Jews over Palestinians


Quote
Israel is not a democracy but an “apartheid regime” that enforces Jewish supremacy over all the land it controls, a leading domestic rights group has alleged in a position paper bound to provoke fierce controversy.

“One organising principle lies at the base of a wide array of Israeli policies: advancing and perpetuating the supremacy of one group – Jews – over another – Palestinians,” said B’Tselem, an organisation that documents human rights violations.

Ohad Zemet, the spokesperson for Israel’s UK embassy, dismissed the report as “a propaganda tool”. He added: “Israel rejects the false claims in the so-called report as it is not based on reality but on a distorted ideological view.”

B’Tselem said it rejected the dominant assumption that Israel operates two separate systems of rule concurrently – a democracy within its sovereign territory while maintaining a half-century military grip over Palestinians in the occupied territories.

“Israel is not a democracy that has a temporary occupation attached to it,” said the body’s executive director, Hagai El-Ad. “It is one regime between the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, and we must look at the full picture and see it for what it is: apartheid.”

Those areas include the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which Israel captured from Jordanian forces in a 1967 war, and the Gaza Strip, which it took from Egypt in the same conflict and where its military remained until 2005.

The shift in perception towards claims of apartheid is part of a movement led by activists that gained momentum following Israeli annexation threats they claim prove the occupation is permanent, as well as recent laws that enshrine extra political rights for Jews over Arabs.

One other Israeli rights group, Yesh Din, published a legal opinion last summer in which it argued that apartheid was being committed in the West Bank.

However, B’Tselem’s report goes further, claiming Israel has created a system over all the territory in which Jewish citizens have full rights. Meanwhile, it argues Palestinians are divided into four tiers with various levels of rights depending on where they live, but always below Jewish people.

At the lowest end, the report states, is the roughly 2 million Palestinians in the deeply impoverished Gaza Strip, ruled by the militant group, Hamas, but which Israel blockades in a policy B’Tselem says gives it “effective control”.

Above them, B’Tselem said, is the roughly 2.7 million Palestinian “subjects” in the West Bank, who live in “dozens of disconnected enclaves, under rigid military rule and without political rights”.

Under agreements signed in the 1990s, Palestinians in the West Bank have limited self-rule, although B’Tselem said the Palestinian Authority “is still subordinate to Israel and can only exercise its limited powers with Israel’s consent”.

Next on its hierarchy are the roughly 350,000 Palestinians who live in East Jerusalem. Israel has offered citizenship to these residents, although many have refused on principle and for those that try, the process has a high rejection rate.

At B’Tselem’s highest tier are Palestinian citizens of Israel, also called Arab-Israelis, who have full citizenship and make up about a fifth of Israelis. Still, B’Tselem said they are also kept below Jewish citizens, pointing to land discrimination, immigration laws that favour Jews, and a law that affords Jewish people extra political rights.

In response, Zemet, the Israeli diplomat, said all Israeli citizens have full rights, with Arabs “represented in all branches of government – in the Israeli parliament, in the courts (including the supreme court), in the public service, and even in the diplomatic corps where they represent the State of Israel around the world”.

In 2017, the UN Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia became the first UN body to accuse Israel of apartheid, a crime under international law, a move that Israel’s former foreign ministry spokesperson likened to Nazi propaganda. The UN’s leadership did not support the publication of the report, which was later removed from its website.

Last year, after the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, said he intended to annex parts of the West Bank, 47 UN experts warned it “would be the crystallisation of an already unjust reality: two peoples living in the same space, ruled by the same state, but with profoundly unequal rights”.

They added: “This is a vision of a 21st-century apartheid.”

Netanyahu has suspended his annexation ambitions. However, several Israeli and Palestinian rights groups, including B’Tselem, argue Israel already enforces a “de facto” annexation of the West Bank, with more than 400,000 Jewish settlers living there and enjoying the same rights, and many of the same services, as other Israelis.

• This article was amended on 12 January 2021 to add text clarifying that the 2017 UN report that accused Israel of apartheid was not supported by the body’s leadership and was later removed from the UN website.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/israel-is-a-non-democratic-apartheid-regime-says-rights-group

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Offline Bobsackamano

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1234 on: January 12, 2021, 06:17:47 pm »
Move along please, no Apartheid here...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/03/palestinians-excluded-from-israeli-covid-vaccine-rollout-as-jabs-go-to-settlers



Healthcare for the Palestinian population is under the control of the Palestinian authority and not Israel. The healthcare for the Jewish settlers is run by Israel. So you are correct, this does not show apartheid here.

However even viewing things from an entirely Israeli perspective it would be a bit daft of the Israelies if they didnt assist the Palestinian health authorities to obtain the vaccine as quickly as possible though due to the contact between the 2 communities.

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1235 on: February 9, 2021, 07:44:38 pm »
https://artistsforpalestine.org.uk/2021/02/08/stand-with-ken-loach-and-against-mccarthyism/

“We are deeply troubled to learn of a McCarthyite campaign demanding Oxford University cancel a public event with director Ken Loach discussing his distinguished career in film. The campaign to silence a world-renowned artist, which has been active behind the scenes and which became public at the last minute, is using the controversial IHRA definition of antisemitism to try to prevent a cultural event from taking place. If any further evidence were needed to demonstrate how a vaguely worded definition is being deployed to silence critics of Israeli policy towards Palestinians — then this is it. We have been warned by respected Palestinian academics, Israeli scholars, leading experts on antisemitism, dozens of progressive Jewish groups, and others that this definition is being used as a political weapon. We cannot fight racism, including antisemitism, by demonising and silencing supporters of Palestinian rights.”

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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1236 on: February 9, 2021, 07:49:21 pm »
Loach is an old antisemite...

Not sure he should be deplatformed  though
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1237 on: February 9, 2021, 08:07:52 pm »
Loach is an old antisemite...

Unless you deem opposing the Apartheid regime of Israel to be antisemitic, then no he isn't.

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1238 on: February 9, 2021, 08:11:38 pm »
Unless you deem opposing the Apartheid regime of Israel to be antisemitic, then no he isn't.


Ah there we go...
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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #1239 on: February 9, 2021, 08:35:56 pm »
Loach is an old antisemite...

Not sure he should be deplatformed  though

I agree. His politics come from a right-wing kindergarten. But his films are wonderful. Well, most of them. Plus, it can be educational to hear stuff that is obviously wrong.
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