Author Topic: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC  (Read 20719 times)

Offline Hinesy

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RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« on: December 21, 2013, 02:39:04 pm »
Truly a game of two halves. Flanagan was missed more than perhaps we expected, and another frustrating goal let in. But blimey Luis' first goal was just lovely and the 3rd a corker.
I've not much to say except this: At times it looked and felt like the match was in Wales, not L4... are we getting a complacent crowd, or was it my BT Sport audio feed concentrating on the Malky McKay Malarky?
Top of the league though. Merry Christmas from the Round Tablers to one and all.
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Offline E2K

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2013, 06:50:40 pm »
Teams like Cardiff take what you give them. Like most of the Premier League, they simply don’t have the quality of player to go to a tough away ground and dictate the play. Sure, they can drag you down to their level, but only if you let them. Too often in the past, Liverpool have let teams like them do exactly that instead of making them play at theirs for a prolonged period so that, ultimately, class will eventually tell. Today, Cardiff started off more positively than a lot of teams that come to Anfield, but how they were going to play and how much of a threat they were going to pose over the 90 minutes was ultimately going to be established by how Liverpool played. And for an hour today, they simply couldn’t live with the passing, tempo and movement of the home side.

One of the things that I’m increasingly loving about Rodgers’ team is that they give the likes of Cardiff very little, they make them play at their level (what is it that Bob Paisley once said about the ‘This Is Anfield, sign, there are more bad teams than good?) As with the West Ham game a couple of weeks back, there was a spell after they scored that was more nervy than it should have been given that Liverpool had taken a 3-0 lead into half-time and were cruising, and there’s certainly plenty of tuning to be done at the back, particularly on set-pieces, that much is obvious. Aside from that, though, Liverpool largely made this game look easy in a way that we’re not used to seeing against the teams that come and defend in numbers. You arguably have to go back to Kenny Dalglish’s first spell in charge to find a Liverpool side that swatted these kinds of teams aside with this kind of ease, no need to panic, no need to change anything, just keep the ball moving and the goals will come. The Fulham’s, the West Ham’s, the Cardiff’s, the West Brom’s, these teams are increasingly helpless against a relentless, all-encompassing, lightning-fast Red tide that simply engulfs them and doesn’t allow them to get a solid footing in the game. And it’s one of the primary reasons why Liverpool have a shot of being top of the table at Christmas.

That’s a general observation out of the way. In terms of specifics, I thought Sakho was absolutely brilliant today, as he has been since his return to the side. He has my complete faith in every aspect of his game and looks like he may even develop into a snip at £17m. Henderson has also been magnificent of late. It’s as if someone has found a switch and just flipped it. Allen, despite some frustrating wastefulness in the final third, was also superb for the third game in a row, and Suárez simply defies description at this stage. When the third went in, I just laughed. We’re so lucky to have him, and rather than try and come up with new superlatives that will only fall short, I’ll link to something I wrote a year ago. Every word of this still holds true.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2013, 11:16:21 am »
Thought the first half was very good, one lapse in concentration but it built and built until the gaps came and Cardiff were dizzy chasing the ball, we tried to play with purpose a little ineffective at first but that was execution of the final pass rather than intent.

Thought the second half we'd basically been told not to do anything daft, the quality and team work began to fall off, the intent was lacking, we seemed content to counter and once again we allowed a beaten team to get itself together and try and get back into a game they'd already lost. Job done though I guess.

If a team rolls over we'll thrash them if they dont they have a chance because we'll ease off. Thats not a good message, we should be ensuring teams have no hope and know we will be relentless.

Yep I know we want to save legs for the next games but these players should be able to work hard for 90 minutes and its a lot easier dictating play than reacting to it. A false economy in my book.

It has happened so many times, Notts County was the worst instance but its a common trait through the season. As is defending set pieces....

I know I come across as stupidly negative, top of the table and all that  but now is not a time to rest on any laurels because thats when the wheels come off. We need to work smarter and harder and that includes learning to defend set pieces and how to kill the opposition off.

A good result at City now that would send a message and a belief rippling through the Prem.

Have a good chrimbo one and all

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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2013, 02:14:09 pm »

If a team rolls over we'll thrash them if they dont they have a chance because we'll ease off. Thats not a good message, we should be ensuring teams have no hope and know we will be relentless.

Yep I know we want to save legs for the next games but these players should be able to work hard for 90 minutes and its a lot easier dictating play than reacting to it. A false economy in my book.


 
It's not just about playing for a full 90 minutes though. It's also about the next 90 minutes, and the 90 minutes after that. In other words, if we're going to be playing our best/form team for the majority of the season, then we can't be running them into the ground in an already-won game. That's how injuries happen. It's not that they aren't ABLE to work for 90 minutes - it's more that it is not smart to be playing at 100% intensity for 90 minutes when the game is already won and you have the best player in the league and a rapid counter-attack.
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Offline Hinesy

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2013, 05:09:43 pm »
Bump
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Offline na fir dearg

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2013, 06:16:11 pm »
Great result, Suarez delivering once again. Further impressed with Henderson, really making some game changing contributions now - confidence seems to be growing with every game.

On the negative side - setpiece defending is now becoming embarrassing, cant believe Rodgers will let this continue for much longer??? Surely they will bring in a defensive coach or something as could cost us valuable points in future games.

All in all, we are beating whats in front of us, top of the league......roll on the 26th!!  ;D

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2013, 06:17:23 pm »
Great result, Suarez delivering once again. Further impressed with Henderson, really making some game changing contributions now - confidence seems to be growing with every game.

On the negative side - setpiece defending is now becoming embarrassing, cant believe Rodgers will let this continue for much longer??? Surely they will bring in a defensive coach or something as could cost us valuable points in future games.

All in all, we are beating whats in front of us, top of the league......roll on the 26th!!  ;D

Nobody brings in defensive coaches. It just doesn't exist to any significant degree in football. Why do people keep suggesting it like it's a vital piece of the coaching puzzle that everyone else has and we don't?
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Offline na fir dearg

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2013, 06:29:27 pm »
Nobody brings in defensive coaches. It just doesn't exist to any significant degree in football. Why do people keep suggesting it like it's a vital piece of the coaching puzzle that everyone else has and we don't?

dunno.....guess im clutching at straws trying to figure out why we cant defend a cross into the box

Offline TSC

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2013, 06:34:37 pm »
dunno.....guess im clutching at straws trying to figure out why we cant defend a cross into the box

Don't need a defensive coach to point out that there shouldn't be a 2 v 1 at the back post on set pieces.  It was a lack of concentration like, but not a major issue when we were 3-0 up.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2013, 06:35:26 pm »
dunno.....guess im clutching at straws trying to figure out why we cant defend a cross into the box

Because we almost certainly don't practice them on the field with any regularity. It's nothing to do with "defensive coaches", and more to do with Rodgers probably thinking it can be done with diagrams and communication. I'd love to see what we actually do for them, though, to rehearse them
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2013, 06:39:44 pm »
A thorough analysis of the goal conceded, anorak-style, would be most appreciated, PoP and others with the requisite education, skills and software.

Question: Was Flanagan substituted with Kelly for tactical reasons? Because he was losing too many aerial battles? Whilst looking forward to the switch to 3-CB, so that GJ could be one of the WB?

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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2013, 06:46:42 pm »
A thorough analysis of the goal conceded, anorak-style, would be most appreciated, PoP and others with the requisite education, skills and software.

Question: Was Flanagan substituted with Kelly for tactical reasons? Because he was losing too many aerial battles? Whilst looking forward to the switch to 3-CB, so that GJ could be one of the WB?

It doesn't need anorak style analysis. We tried to play a trap, Skrtel broke it. Someone missed their mark, and Sakho was doubled up and screened. Simple problem, simple fix, but I'd love to know what we do about them, because it's my one huge criticism of Rodgers - we don't get better at defending set pieces.
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Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2013, 06:47:27 pm »
Question: Was Flanagan substituted with Kelly for tactical reasons? Because he was losing too many aerial battles? Whilst looking forward to the switch to 3-CB, so that GJ could be one of the WB?
I think Kelly definitely came on for fitness reasons--we'd won the game already, and he needs to get back up to speed. At the time, I assumed the reason he came on for Flanno rather than Johnson was mostly just a seniority thing and/or because Flanagan has probably never played this much football in a short time and possibly could use the rest. In retrospect though, you might be right that Rodgers was considering the switch to 3 CB and didn't want to end up with Kelly and Flanno as WBs.

Offline The Playmaker

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2013, 06:48:57 pm »
Well, I'm pretty sure that this is the first time since 2011 (under Kenny) that we've won four league games on the bounce. I've been impressed with how the team has responded to the defeat against Hull City. I have felt that we've responded quite well to defeats under Brendan Rodgers - I'm speaking about after the initial settling in period. We seem to put another run together which is really pleasing. Without sounding arrogant, we didn't need to exert ourselves in the second half because the game was effectively over. We just had to keep possession and make Cardiff City chase the game a bit.

I'm not overly concerned about the spell that Cardiff City had in the second half. It was bound to happen at some point in the game. Fair play to them for putting up more of a fight but even at 3-1 down it was a big ask for them to get themselves back into the game. We had a couple of decent chances too and all in all I think that it was a 'comfortable' victory in the end.

A thorough analysis of the goal conceded, anorak-style, would be most appreciated, PoP and others with the requisite education, skills and software.

Question: Was Flanagan substituted with Kelly for tactical reasons? Because he was losing too many aerial battles? Whilst looking forward to the switch to 3-CB, so that GJ could be one of the WB?
I think I read somewhere that Flanagan had picked up a slight knock?

Offline steveeastend

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2013, 07:05:10 pm »
dunno.....guess im clutching at straws trying to figure out why we cant defend a cross into the box

We can´t? Like in a way that we look way worse than other teams? We conceded 19 goals so far (City 20, Chelsea 18, Arsenal 17), we are top of the table, there has to be a lot right in our defending recently, even at set pieces and I think we are as far from being "not able to defend" than mars is from the earth.. Sorry, actually I didn´t want to write about this anyway but I am still puzzled how well respected posters are arguing in the Skrtel thread as if they have never seen a game of football before in their life. But you´ll always learn something new I guess..

Actually I wanted to write about Rodgers only in this one as I think he deserves to be highlighted at this point. The way our defense, midfield and attack were working together in this game was top class and people finally could see some sort of an end product of his hard work in order to get his vision of football across in a way that it´s "easy" to get for people watching it. As long as there are bits missing, as long as there only a few players not pulling into the same direction it can be frustrating to watch as it´s a very risky set up, demanding a lot of the players, a little bit like it was the case with Klopp at Dortmund in his first couple of seasons.

From our performance yesterday though, there is finally a foundation in place which will be very hard to beat in the long run. With players being able to vary the pace of a game, a defending line dropping back or push on fluently depending on the game situation, a center midfield who is able to totally dominate with either passing the ball around for minutes or pressing on, who will be getting behind the ball on a constant basis in order to protect the defending line, attacking players who will be passing the ball in the final third with one touch football at the highest possible risk and still being able to track back and defend in triangles, a goal keeper who is able to dominate the box just as pulling out those difficult saves on a constant basis... to me, that´s football.

In terms of our defending line I think people totally underestimate the level of performance of both our center backs at the moment. From the way the split up in build up, the confidence when stepping out of the defending line, the calm passing and positioning in order to protect our full backs.... it was a very mature and top class performance in open play in almost every respect you can think of. The entire team looks a well oiled football machine and I honestly wonder how Gerrard would be fitting in there at this point as Henderson and Allen stepped up in a way which I honestly thought it wouldn´t be possible. And if this really should have anything to do with the absence of Gerrard, players not being afraid of making mistakes or feeling free to go for the decision without thinking of passing it to the captain first and foremost, then Rodgers has another problem right around the corner.

But I bet he won´t see it that way, I bet he will find a way to turn this into a positive as well just how he seems to be enjoying every minute of it so far. I think we should as well.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 07:22:28 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline killer-heels

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2013, 07:09:31 pm »
I was actually quite happy to the way we reacted after we conceded the goal, bar a couple of nervous set piece defending issues. We didn't have to go up any more levels and just killed the game off. Took our foot off the gas really for the final 20 minutes so no doubt that will have conserved some fitness.

Offline houkura

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2013, 07:18:41 pm »
My thoughts are that Cardiff built the biggest lock they could...we well picked it before half time and then set up tactically to protect the lead and be prepared for the next couple of fixtures.

As far as the set-piece goal is concerned...we were clearly set up to beat the free kick with an offside trap. Skrtel freaked out and jumped out of the line in fear of getting beat and it all went south. Not to say it's a good idea to rely on the trap but we had 4 or 5 of their players well offside the moment before the ball was kicked and Skrtel decided to jump out. I also think their must have been a mixup due to the substitution that had just happened. Not only was their a defensive sub but also a switch of sides for Johnson. It all happened to quick for them to figure it out. This is a lapse in concentration that probably won't happen a 1-0 or 0-0 or even 2-0 but it happened. It's a worry but not a huge one. I'm sure Rodgers is keyed into it-everyone on the whole internet is so he must be right?

Suarez is a genius. Henderson is better than I thought...and I've always been a big fan of his. Sterling-3 goals in the last 4 games and deceptively fast. Suarez seems to be pulling him into form. Sahko is imperious. His passes look clunky but they are sharp, fast and accurate.

Good times.
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Offline Shaved Crossbar

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2013, 07:30:58 pm »
Don't need a defensive coach to point out that there shouldn't be a 2 v 1 at the back post on set pieces.  It was a lack of concentration like, but not a major issue when we were 3-0 up.

To say it's not a major issue at any point is just utter complacency. If fans like you don't even give a shit about clean sheets then no wonder we've managed 2 in 14 games. What happens when Sakho is up against Negredo and Kompany at the far post on Thursday? Will it matter then?

Offline houkura

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2013, 07:35:03 pm »
To say it's not a major issue at any point is just utter complacency. If fans like you don't even give a shit about clean sheets then no wonder we've managed 2 in 14 games. What happens when Sakho is up against Negredo and Kompany at the far post on Thursday? Will it matter then?


We've only gotten 2 clean sheets because a poster on RAWK is complacent?   ???
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Offline redbyrdz

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2013, 07:35:28 pm »
Just a couple of little things...

Suarez can score absolute everything at the moment. Long may it continue.

Coutinhos turn in the box. :o

Sterling destroying another fullback. Suarez has done more than just gifting him a goal against Norwich, he's lifted his confidence so much, he's given himself a player to work with on his wave length. Three weeks ago, Sterling would nearly always pick the safe option, now he's taking his man on and whizzing through midfield. Obviously that an be dangerous sometime (Cardiff nearly scored when he lost the ball once), but that's what we want an attacking player to do and it's fantastic to see.

I think Flanagan came off to give Kelly some minutes, and maybe create a bit of competition for the fullback positions. Kelly will need a bit longer though, imo.



Regarding the atmosphere, the Cardiff fans were fantastic in their support for their team and manager. They're a loud bunch. (outsung us at Wembley too :-X) It wasn't too bad in the Kop, but we really only got going after we scored (as usual), and there was a real nervousness setting in after they scored, despite us still being two goals up. It's nothing new though.
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Offline longtimered

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2013, 07:42:49 pm »
Three things to work on to get better.
Skirtl will not keep getting away with so much shirtpulling.Coutinho mustn't try tricks that lose position halfway in his own half.Allen needs composure when near or in the opposing penalty area.
Its easier to highlight areas to work on when doing well rather than be seen to moan after a poor result.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2013, 07:51:47 pm »
It doesn't need anorak style analysis. We tried to play a trap, Skrtel broke it. Someone missed their mark, and Sakho was doubled up and screened. Simple problem, simple fix, but I'd love to know what we do about them, because it's my one huge criticism of Rodgers - we don't get better at defending set pieces.

I just love it when you (inadvertently) vindicate my own, distinctly amateurish, analysis.

Yes, I am that 'sad'.  :wave
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Offline na fir dearg

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2013, 08:01:13 pm »
Don't need a defensive coach to point out that there shouldn't be a 2 v 1 at the back post on set pieces.  It was a lack of concentration like, but not a major issue when we were 3-0 up.

Not sure its a concentration problem, there were numerous free headers won in our box after they got their goal.

We havent conceded many more goals than our current rivals, this is true. Its just frustrating to watch lesser teams get chances against us by simply launching a few crosses into our penalty area - i now get worried every time we concede a corner kick.

Anyways, as long we keep outscoring the opposition we'll be fine  8)

Offline jamieredders

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2013, 08:08:59 pm »
45 minutes of Liverpool playing like champions........relentless attacking football, initially trying to break down two defensive walls of 4.....then those walls weren't just broken they were demolished by pure class.

A further 45 minutes ensued of Liverpool taking foot off the gas with a 3 goal cushion..............eventually narrowed to 2.

Bring on the other title contenders in the next two games.  We are right up there with them.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2013, 08:10:56 pm »
We've only gotten 2 clean sheets because a poster on RAWK is complacent?   ???

If the fans don't give a fuck why would the players

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2013, 08:24:32 pm »

It's not just about playing for a full 90 minutes though. It's also about the next 90 minutes, and the 90 minutes after that. In other words, if we're going to be playing our best/form team for the majority of the season, then we can't be running them into the ground in an already-won game. That's how injuries happen. It's not that they aren't ABLE to work for 90 minutes - it's more that it is not smart to be playing at 100% intensity for 90 minutes when the game is already won and you have the best player in the league and a rapid counter-attack.
Would this be a coaching management decision at HT, or is it something that players at this level don't need to be told about, it happens naturally?
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Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2013, 08:25:30 pm »
To say it's not a major issue at any point is just utter complacency. If fans like you don't even give a shit about clean sheets then no wonder we've managed 2 in 14 games. What happens when Sakho is up against Negredo and Kompany at the far post on Thursday? Will it matter then?

It was a clear case of miscommunication.  Notice that the goal happened right after Kelly came on. Either he was picking up the wrong player or didn't tell someone else that they were supposed to switch over to the player that scored.  That is the first time that I can remember where we had a situation like that where it was quite clear that someone was wide open. 

Offline stockdam

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2013, 08:26:17 pm »
It doesn't need anorak style analysis. We tried to play a trap, Skrtel broke it.

The two guys at the back post were not played on just by Skrtel; I think Henderson and one other were playing them on. The main mistake was leaving two against one at the back post. I'm not sure why Johnston was marking nobody and everybody seemed to be one person out of position maybe because of this which maybe was the reason for 2-1 at the back post?

Overall we didn't defend crosses that well. We got away with a lot of holding and pushing and rarely jumped for the ball. We didn't look comfortable at crosses.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 08:31:04 pm by stockdam »
#JFT97

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2013, 08:32:28 pm »
Regarding the defending of set-pieces, my simplistic view is that we're getting less panicky than in recent years. In the past, when the opposition got a goal back the players would lose their positional sense which led them to make a number of mistakes. This gave the impression that they were about to cave-in and spurred the opposition to attack even more. This has definitely receded this season. Yes, it's not perfect right now but I can only see us getting better as the season progresses. There is a greater degree of control once we concede than last season I believe.

In the last two games, Henderson has set up a goal with a delicate back-heel. The confidence is oozing from the guy and I'm looking forward to seeing how he reacts to playing against a high in quality midfield when we face City on Thursday. I don't know if I'm getting carried away here, but are we witnessing the development of a partnership (Henderson and Suarez) that will rival Gerrard and Torres?

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Offline John C

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2013, 08:34:16 pm »
Nobody brings in defensive coaches. It just doesn't exist to any significant degree in football.
Except Keegan's failed attempt with Mark Lawrenson ;D
I digress.

We're witnessing a new era now I hope, performances like that need to be sustained if we are to be a serious team. I'm at ease completely with a slower tempo once we're comfortable, but as long as we're in control so the points mount then we could become a force in the league that we've desired for so long.
As I've said in the past I can be a moaning get because I'm waiting for the next bad performance, but the players seem so comfortable don't they. They're playing naturally as a team but individually confident.

Sakho justified again why I've enthused over him so much, he's going to be some player for us.

The midfield trio have gelled sweetly which should help them greatly in to the next 2 big games. I hope they are saying to each other "fuck City and fuck Chelsea, we are Liverpool".

I'm really enjoying Flanagan's contribution as well, he was the width of a sock away from scoring again.

And Luis, well he's just surreal now isn't he. When he scores cheers have been replaced by laughter for me & my lad. We are honoured to be able to celebrate with him - he truly is a world great.

A touch of class from the home support, as I predicted pre-match, to clap Malky, but yeah otherwise it was a quiet day - early starts & hangovers don't mix in this city.

Offline dumaten

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2013, 08:43:06 pm »
The two guys at the back post were not played on just by Skrtel; I think Henderson and one other were playing them on. The main mistake was leaving two against one at the back post. I'm not sure why Johnston was marking nobody and everybody seemed to be one person out of position maybe because of this which maybe was the reason for 2-1 at the back post?

Overall we didn't defend crosses that well. We got away with a lot of holding and pushing and rarely jumped for the ball. We didn't look comfortable at crosses.

Yeah the front post players (Lucas and Henderson) would be playing their back post players on. I still don't understand what Skrtel is doing there, presumably he's supposed to be the free man to follow the ball and clear it if one of the man-markers is beaten, why does he run towards the penalty spot before the free kick is taken? The strength of our defensive strategy there is that the free kick was from so far out that we could play the offside trap, and if it fails still have time to adjust while the ball is in flight, so there's no need to be trying to guess at where the ball's going before its been kicked.

I don't think we got away with much though, in as much as cardiff equally got away with fouling our defenders.

Offline TheDarkKnight

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2013, 08:47:03 pm »
A really enjoyable afternoon. Cardiff came to Anfield, parked the bus and said 'break us down'- we obliged, playing wonderful football in the process.

Was a joy to be there and witness more magic from Suarez, another flawless display by Henderson and Sakho defend like an absolute beast both in the air and on the deck. Also, our young crop of talent that were put in lately as a result of injuries- Sterling, Allen and Flanagan- once again produced very good performances to show that they are valuable members of our squad.

Skrtel has received a lot of criticism, but to be honest I thought he defended well in open play, barely gave their strikers a sniff. Clearly, however, he needs to learn how to defend set-pieces properly rather than do his best impression of Kurt Angle, else he'll concede a penalty sooner rather than later; the last thing we need to be doing against Manchester City and Chelsea is gifting them penalties. Johnson was okay at right-back, his performance wasn't so good when he went over to the left but I don't think he was quite as bad as some have portrayed. Still, he's far from his best which is a worry going in to our next two games.

The most pleasing thing is that, as plenty covered pre-match, in the past we have followed up a big win by dropping silly points in the following game; be that through complacency or fatigue. Yesterday the players were clearly well motivated and continued from where they left off against Tottenham, had the right attitude and applied themselves very well which should be applauded given it's a young side.

Great to see some consistency, too, making it four wins on the bounce. And Anfield truly is a fortress at the moment.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2013, 08:51:49 pm »
The two guys at the back post were not played on just by Skrtel; I think Henderson and one other were playing them on. The main mistake was leaving two against one at the back post. I'm not sure why Johnston was marking nobody and everybody seemed to be one person out of position maybe because of this which maybe was the reason for 2-1 at the back post?

Overall we didn't defend crosses that well. We got away with a lot of holding and pushing and rarely jumped for the ball. We didn't look comfortable at crosses.

14'11''-14'14'' in the second video: http://fm.lfc.vn/cardiff-full-match-w17/

I see Skrtel about half-a-yard closer to Mignolet than any other LFC player at the point the ball is kicked.

Btw, why is the referee looking at the ball in this instance? The assistant referee is closest to the ball and there's no assistant referee on the side where the little 'pick' takes place. In the video, it sounds like it's Michael Owen who opines that it's not a foul. I beg to differ. On the other hand, Sakho doesn't 'sell it', nor does he really attempt to get away from the brief 'embrace'.

Finally, perhaps it's because I've become so accustomed to Mignolet making great saves but I, for one, expected a bit more from Mignolet in this instance. Oh well.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 09:13:15 pm by GrkStav »
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2013, 09:12:01 pm »
14'11''-14'14'' in this video: http://player.vimeo.com/video/82461203

I see Skrtel about half-a-yard closer to Mignolet than any other LFC player at the point the ball is kicked.


Video doesn't play. Yes Skrtel does step out of line but that didn't play the Cardiff back post guys onside as they would have been onside if he had held the line (not that he would have known). Skrtel was playing one of the Cardiff front post guys onside but the ball didn't come that way. Lack of communication or whatever left 2 guys for Sakho to mark.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2013, 09:17:58 pm »
Video doesn't play. Yes Skrtel does step out of line but that didn't play the Cardiff back post guys onside as they would have been onside if he had held the line (not that he would have known). Skrtel was playing one of the Cardiff front post guys onside but the ball didn't come that way. Lack of communication or whatever left 2 guys for Sakho to mark.

Try this link, and watch the second video (of the H2), same 'time': http://fm.lfc.vn/cardiff-full-match-w17/

Skrtel played everyone onside by a lot. Had everyone lined up where Sakho was encouraging them to line up (all else equal), all of the Cardiff players in our box would have been offside.

The annoying thing is NO Cardiff player 'broke' forward where Skrtel broke backward. He anticipated/guessed wrong.

Had Sakho made an attempt to get in the air (i.e. leap) instead of attempting to hold on to the player 'picking him off' with his left hand, the chances the ref would've called off the goal for a foul would've increased. And, I was mistaken, eventually, the referee is looking right at the 'pick'. He probably classed it as 'incidental contact', a decision with which I disagree, but I was never a defender . . .
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 09:20:42 pm by GrkStav »
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Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2013, 09:29:16 pm »
From @dankennett, this might help color any conclusions from the game:



And from me:

2nd Half Clearances: 25 vs Cardiff - 14 vs Palace
2nd Half Completed Passes: 242 vs Cardiff - 282 vs Palace

Constant in Liverpool's four wins since losing at Hull? Joe Allen

I'll probably see if I've got anything actually interesting/enjoyable to say as the thread goes on but preempting discussion here :)

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2013, 10:25:46 pm »
Simple problem, simple fix, but I'd love to know what we do about them, because it's my one huge criticism of Rodgers - we don't get better at defending set pieces.

Actually we dont get any worse at defending set pieces. We have been quite sometime if you ask me. And we seem to have forgotten the basics. Or is that what you said? Anyways, I dunno about you, but I think the way we lined up last evening, showed our ignorance to deal with the space that we allowed around the Cardiff players.

Image:1



This is how we lined up before the freekick was taken. Lucas, Allen and Sterling are also in the frame. But whats interesting (and stupid) is how we lined up our back.

Henderson is marking Campbell, Kelly is marking Caulker, Skrtel is marking none (When he should have marked Turner), Sakho is marking Turner (Who should have marked Mutch). Mutch is unmarked.

Image:2



This is how we "moved" after the freekick was taken. Henderson is running with his marker - Campbell. Normal. Kelly is starting to run towards the goal. Probably in accordance to what a CB should do - run towards the goal to defend the far post. Skrtel is in the same place. Sakho is with his marker. Mutch is unmarked.  The blame here is as much Skrtel/Sakho as Mignolet. This is basic defending error. If there are 4 opposition players waiting to attack a freekick, there should be 6 players defending it (in a very wide sense!). 4 players marking the opposition players, 1 running towards the post, 1 to initiate the counter. We have Kelly running towards the far post and we have Sterling waiting to initiate the counter.

Mignolet and Sakho should have been more aware about the space they were "donating" Cardiff players. Communication, spacial awareness and tactical defence seems to be thrown for a toss sometimes. I dread everytime we line up to defend a freekick. And rightly so.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2013, 10:34:12 pm »
Try this link, and watch the second video (of the H2), same 'time': http://fm.lfc.vn/cardiff-full-match-w17/

Skrtel played everyone onside by a lot. Had everyone lined up where Sakho was encouraging them to line up (all else equal), all of the Cardiff players in our box would have been offside.



The screenshot below confirms what damaten and I said above......"Yeah the front post players (Lucas and Henderson) would be playing their back post players on." Ignore where Skrtel is and you can see that the back post players are onside. If anything Sahko's position is poor but he is marking two players and has no support.

Skrtel's movement didn't play the back post players onside as they were level with Lucas and Henderson. That's where the ball went and so the offside "trap" wouldn't have worked. I agree that Skrtel broke the line but that was irrelevant and the goal would still have stood if he had held the line. The mistake wasn't Skrtel's but was a failure to support Sahko and it's not clear who should have been helping him.


« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 10:54:28 pm by stockdam »
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Offline DyingAtheist

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2013, 11:18:24 pm »
If the fans don't give a fuck why would the players

Well fans aren't paid millions of pounds for one...
Our defensive record is good, as pointed out - you need to calm down.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2013, 11:34:33 pm »
Actually we dont get any worse at defending set pieces. We have been quite sometime if you ask me. And we seem to have forgotten the basics. Or is that what you said? Anyways, I dunno about you, but I think the way we lined up last evening, showed our ignorance to deal with the space that we allowed around the Cardiff players.

(snip)

You're assuming we're man-to-man marking, though? If we were supposed to play an offside trap (which the ranting and hand signals of Sakho while the free kick was being prepared would suggest), then nobody is really marking anybody - they keep an eye on them, but the key is to keep squeezing, hold the line on the kick, and step out. The line is being made and players have to be seen, but nobody is really supposed to mark anybody. Which again, tells me that we don't work on these things in training, because confusions such as that are easily cleared up after a few reps.

Lets look at the kick again, in three frames.

Frame 1:



We see as the kick is being prepared, that Sakho is gesticulating across the line. In the offside line are (1) Kelly, (2) Skrtel, (3) Lucas, (4) Henderson and (5) Sakho.

Frame 2:

Here we can see that Skrtel has pulled up to the line, and played Campbell into an offside position. At this point, all is rosy, and all we have to do is hold our line on the kick, or even step out, if we're brave:



Frame 3:



But Skrtel loses his nerve, and as the ball is being kicked, makes a dash towards the goal that puts every Cardiff player onside, and removes any doubt from the official's mind. Remember, when you run the trap, you are relying on a third party playing along, which is why hands-raised and verbal calls are synonymous with offside traps. Skrtel broke the line, and this made the two players behind Sakho dangerous and legitimate threats as the ball was kicked, instead of being players interfering with the play and forcing an offside call.

This is an easy tactic to get right but it needs many repetitions on the training pitch, which the team clearly didn't have. It also needs one more part of it to be most effective, and that would have negated Skrtel's need to move on the kick. Sterling and Allen are standing marking nobody - they could have acted as counter-runners, so as the line steps out, they are making tracking runs, so that any missed call is at least mitigated by oncoming pressure.

Mignolet is very, very, very low down on the "liability" totem pole here. As with everyone else, he probably expected a disciplined offside trap and was caught short by Skrtel's run. This one was on Skrtel in part, and on Rodgers for probably a greater part, because there is no need for professional players to be that disorganised on a trap, unless it's something they haven't worked on much in training.
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