Topic: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)

[Suareznumber7]

As a lot of posters here have correctly pointed out, Klopp basically attributes a lot of the blame on the goals conceded to the midfielders not being in the right position.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-iSGaP64i8

What a shocker that is. 

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

Honestly sometimes I think we'd be better off spending loads one summer then not much the next couple. Least that way our top players will get to play with each other. See keita and Coutinho.

Will we see them together? i doubt it.

Why? Doesn't Coutinho still have three years left on his contract? We're under no obligation to sell and it's not like we need the money.

Coutinho also doesn't strike me as the kind of player that'll down tools....so reject all advances, keep him, and play him alongside Keita*

*I know this is unlikely to happen in reality - but players with long contracts should hold no power over clubs.

[El Lobo]

Trouble is our best players don't

Then you are in a never ending circle which is exactly whats happened.

The never ending circle has been because there’s been so many different approaches. Hodgson, to Kenny, Rodgers, to committee, to no committee, to Suarez to Lambert to Borini etc etc.

It’s a bit of a fallacy that we’ve got this huge list of our best players who have left. Torres, Xabi, Masch, Suarez, Sterling in over a decade of massive under achievement isn’t that bad considering some of the circumstances that they left, owners we’ve had, managers we’ve had etc.

[BabuYagu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIm_BhgVgqw&feature=share really interesting segment on sky sports with Klopp talking about our tactics. Also, Babu was right in saying that Henderson shouldn't have played the pass to Sturridge vs Newcastle (Klopp says it at 14mins)

Good spot that. Thanks. I think it was conversation between Jack & I (and many others) in the Henderson thread which I backed out of when it started getting stupid, circular and full of strawmen - as things tend to do on here.
EDIT:- Link to the conversation if anybody is interested.

Yeah I noticed that in Klopp's chat with Carra on SkySports. He mentioned we have various build up formations and it has been a recurring theme for us when trying to setup something on the flank, we end up trying to go back into the middle and not having the defensive access to prevent counter attacks. The Henderson pass against Newcastle is a good example but it has happened a lot this season and Henderson in particular has been culpable 3 or 4 times from memory. The one against Arsenal had a gif to illustrate it (you can see in the roundtable thread for that game).

It's a simple case of risk vs reward. You need to be aware of how your team is setup and if your entire system is setup on the flank, then you will be overloaded in the middle in an attack breaks down. Therefore it will usually be an unacceptable risk to make those sort of passes unless there is an almost guaranteed reward to show for it. But a ball into feet, with his back to goal, under pressure of 1 or more defenders - which the Firmino & Sturridge examples were - is just unacceptable risk.

Defensive access is one of our most important ways of preventing goals. You cannot effectively press if you are don't have access to the ball/opposition players/passing lanes. Which means you need to be compact and in the vicinity of the ball when it is lost. It's why one of the mantra's for any pressing side is to pass away from underloads and search out the overloads.

[BabuYagu]

One interesting thing will be how accumulative fatigue impacts on things this season.

I remember last season there being warnings about United using Zlatan to the extent he was. It was pointed out he was one of the fittest players in football and never got injured, yet he did his ACL in early April. I remember accumulated fatigue being mentioned when Lucas did his ACL - he had simply played too much football over a period of time and his body was reacting too it. Muscles not able to sustain impacts, or absorb the shock of a vertical jump landing, whatever the actual cause of the injury - accumulated fatigue was deemed to have played a part.

We have been quite good with rotating people this season so far, even if not always through choice. Salah, Coutinho, Mane, Firmino - all key players who have had a rest. Our full backs regularly rotated. Our midfield 3 have all had a stint out of the team. Our fitness will hopefully be good to carry us through the season.

Comparitively, Morata played a lot of games then picked up a muscle injury. Pogba played a lot and picked up an injury. Then you have the likes of Lukaku, Matic, Mkhitaryan, Kane, Alderweirald, Vertongen, Alli, Dier, Erikson, De Bruyne, Silva, Kante - they are all playing almost every minute for their sides so far this season. Results are good but will their be consequences later for that? Kane in particular struggles with a few injuries every season.

Just something to keep an eye on. My limited understanding of accumulated fatigue is it's something you need to constantly manage and not let is stack up on players over periods of 10, 20, 30 days. If a player is playing 4x 90 minute games in 10 days, you are running a high risk, for example.

It is also the one area I am worried with Keita given until now he has only ever played 90 minutes a week. 2500 minutes a season. That will pick up dramatically when he gets here, not to mention the intensity of those 90 minutes also. Expect an adjustment period and maybe picking and choosing games or him, at least initially.

It looks like we are trying to pro-active manage our players workloads though - which should hopefully result in some reduction on what we saw last season where we barely rotated at all. Milner and Clyne played every game pretty much.

I look at key players at other clubs and they are already picking up muscle injuries due to a lack of rotation. United could be bringing Pogba & Lukaku off when ahead, but I guess leaving them on the pitch is resulting in them putting beaten sides to the sword. Now Pogba has a soft tissue injury. Chelsea could be rotating Morata more with Batshuayi but haven't been in recent weeks and now he also has a soft tissue injury. Will be interesting to see what happens with other key players for sides if they continue to be used without rest.

I see the injuries are starting to rack up on some sides now. Mourinho has been moaning about it. Conte is without Moses, Kante & Morata with hamstring injuries.

Then again, we lost Mane with the same injury - one of the players who we have rested a lot this season albeit not by choice

Interesting to see what happens at Spurs & Man City too as well as some of the others named in my post above. I also worry with Mane out whether we could start pushing Firmino, Coutinho & Salah too far.

[McrRed]

Nice posts Babu. I  cant remember if its been discussed on here but peak conditioning and red-lining is a tactical issue. The periodisation and introduction of players gradually to reach peak performance without the risk of soft tissue injury is as much tactical as the formation line-up.

Wait and see what posters say when Lallana is a sub first game back and then subbed off after 60 mins in his second  - why are   we taking him off?! he's having a really good game!

My favourite commentator on all this is simon brundish of AI under pressure fame. There may well be others.

[SerbianScouser]

I could have sworn we used a back 3 formation for a period of time in the second half and we looked great during that spell, we had great width, Huddersfield were kind of puzzled with our different shape (if that in case was a back 3).

In the first half Gomez and especially Moreno struggled to find a way to overlap and get to the byline but the starting position of wing-backs is much higher so we were able to stretch their shape horizontally much better in the second half and had decent amount of space in the middle for our combinations though first goal didn't half help.

I've been wanting us to try this for ages because Ox/Milner and Moreno are perfect for wing-back positions, it'd give us better width against overly defensive teams and there would be more protection at the back against the breaks. Hopefully Klopp will keep experimenting with shapes until we find the one that gives us more defensive stability than 433.

[Midget]

I could have sworn we used a back 3 formation for a period of time in the second half and we looked great during that spell, we had great width, Huddersfield were kind of puzzled with our different shape (if that in case was a back 3).

I think we actually used a back three for the whole first half. Gomez was noticeably central and Salah seemed to play the wingback position and was clearly wing oriented. The problem in the first half was Salah's role, becuase playing as a wingback is a waste of his talents. He is great at making inside runs (he only made one in the first half I think), is our best goal scorer this season, and one of our most creative players. I agree that Oxlade-Chamberlain is tailor made for that position, so it seemed strange Salah was used there. I think they switched back to a 4-3-3 in the second half, with Salah playing with more freedom again, and thus more effective, and possibly closed the game out again in a back three.

I agree that a back three could be a good solution for us. We have great options in the wingback positions for it in Oxlade-Chamberlain and Moreno, but lack the centre backs (Gomez is well suited to a RCB role however). It also lessens the burden defensively for our centre backs as they have to defend a smaller space.

[Triad]

Am I the only one to think that this is not the match to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of our tactics.Huddersfield were very poor and we were lucky to get the 1st goal.

[jillcwhomever]

Am I the only one to think that this is not the match to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of our tactics.Huddersfield were very poor and we were lucky to get the 1st goal.

The main thing was to get 3 points and a clean sheet. Can we not be happy with that? Or even when we win do we have to be all negative. Also who gives a shite if we're lucky with a goal, United are lucky on a regular basis.

[killer-heels]

Am I the only one to think that this is not the match to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of our tactics.Huddersfield were very poor and we were lucky to get the 1st goal.

Its hard to know whether it was the goal or the half time break that increased the intensity. But we clearly made a tweak and it worked. The whole thing about us not being able to make changes and affect the game was always untrue.

[Bolrick]

Gomez looks to be the key.  I like the way he was deployed against huddersfield (playing almost like a sweeper). He is great on one on one situation. He is fast. If Klopp uses him correctly, we will reduce the number of goals we concede.

[Triad]

The main thing was to get 3 points and a clean sheet. Can we not be happy with that? Or even when we win do we have to be all negative. Also who gives a shite if we're lucky with a goal, United are lucky on a regular basis.

You know the old adage that you only learn from your losses,well it only exists because of people like you who ignore performances if the result is good.
Because this is the tactics discussion thread and not the post match thread and the content will be about the tactics and its effectiveness and issues and not self flagellation nonsense.

[Charles Foster Kane]

Its hard to know whether it was the goal or the half time break that increased the intensity. But we clearly made a tweak and it worked. The whole thing about us not being able to make changes and affect the game was always untrue.

Yes to everything. We were lucky on the first goal but maybe it was just a matter of time anyway.

[jillcwhomever]

You know the old adage that you only learn from your losses,well it only exists because of people like you who ignore performances if the result is good.
Because this is the tactics discussion thread and not the post match thread and the content will be about the tactics and its effectiveness and issues and not self flagellation nonsense.

Not ignoring anything but pointing out that with the bad defeat we had last week the most important thing was to win today and get a reaction. For one game I didn't care how we played, as long as we gained three points. Our next three games are all winnable, but there is a reason why I am not stressing too much about our performance just now. We have a number of attacking players missing, players who are crucial to how we play. Therefore I just want us to find a way to win for now, until we get those players back. Then we can truly see what this team is capable off, as I don't think we have a clue as to how much better we can be.

In ordinary times I would agree you can learn a lot from games you lose. But I would say that is exactly what Klopp has been doing this last week since the Spurs game. The most important result of which is three points today.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

I also worry with Mane out whether we could start pushing Firmino, Coutinho & Salah too far.

Firmino got subbed decently early today.

Coutinho had a slower start to the season due to the 'back injury' but I think he might run into trouble in November, 4 games in 11 days towards the back end and he will have to sit out one of those I imagine. There's international break which is a pain in the arse and will push him further into the red.

Salah is even more of a worry - seems to play more minutes than most.

Just need to get through and hope Lallana and Mane will plug the gaps.

[killer-heels]

Firmino got subbed decently early today.

Coutinho had a slower start to the season due to the 'back injury' but I think he might run into trouble in November, 4 games in 11 days towards the back end and he will have to sit out one of those I imagine. There's international break which is a pain in the arse and will push him further into the red.

Salah is even more of a worry - seems to play more minutes than most.

Just need to get through and hope Lallana and Mane will plug the gaps.

Not sure if a CL game is the time to try it but there is a chance one of Salah or Firmino could sit the game out? Maybe play them and take them off early.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Not sure if a CL game is the time to try it but there is a chance one of Salah or Firmino could sit the game out? Maybe play them and take them off early.

We should definitely rest a few in midweek. West Ham is another sort-of-must-win to get in amongst the pack next week with four of them playing each other.

[killer-heels]

We should definitely rest a few in midweek. West Ham is another sort-of-must-win to get in amongst the pack next week with four of them playing each other.

We dont want to rest too many. Sometimes having a group used to winning back to back games can help them. Think we will play them and bring them off early.

[Chris~]

Chamberlain for salah, can for henderson/wijnaldum and probably robertson for Moreno would be enough. Get it won early again and try and rest during the game. We do need to be careful with salah. Played a lot already and about to face the stupid December and January fixture pile up for the first time.

[Charles Foster Kane]

We should definitely rest a few in midweek. West Ham is another sort-of-must-win to get in amongst the pack next week with four of them playing each other.

We don't have the squad to rest "a few" at the moment. Maybe one of them. If there ever was a must-win game it's the one coming up in midweek. Even more so after winning 7-0 away.

[BabuYagu]

I could have sworn we used a back 3 formation for a period of time in the second half and we looked great during that spell, we had great width, Huddersfield were kind of puzzled with our different shape (if that in case was a back 3).

In the first half Gomez and especially Moreno struggled to find a way to overlap and get to the byline but the starting position of wing-backs is much higher so we were able to stretch their shape horizontally much better in the second half and had decent amount of space in the middle for our combinations though first goal didn't half help.

I've been wanting us to try this for ages because Ox/Milner and Moreno are perfect for wing-back positions, it'd give us better width against overly defensive teams and there would be more protection at the back against the breaks. Hopefully Klopp will keep experimenting with shapes until we find the one that gives us more defensive stability than 433.

Out of possession, we played the same system as ever. However, our buildup formation has changed. Instead of our #6 dropping between split center backs, which wasn't working as we have no #6 willing to hold position - Moreno would push up into his usual left wing position, Gomez would hold back as the right center back and Matip would be in that #6 position and Milner/Salah would offer width on the right.

There are a couple of things to note about this, firstly - This is EXACTLY what we should have been doing already. It's just that instead of center backs splitting and #6 dropping in, we have 3 of the defenders sitting back and the #6 being free to play as he likes. Secondly, with our squad, this likely isn't sustainable. For me it feels like a solution to our lack of a #6 problem more than a change that we will commit to over the mid/long term. It feels like Klopp conceding that the midfield are not offering the right protection to the defence when we attack - which I think means we will see a #6 who does so in the near future.

It wasn't noticed today but Huddesfield never attacked out backline at all. However against a better side, like Leicester, Gomez would still be a right back in our defensive shape which means he still needs to deal with wingers 1-v-1, something he isn't physically suited to doing and it shows. Also how does this system work with TAA or Clyne in the side? It doesn't really. Plus with Salah required to maintain width a lot of the time, it was noticable how much less he was involved in and around their box compared to usual until the game opened up - which is a problem as we then somewhat limiting the attacking threat of our most dangerous attacking player.

Likewise when Lallana is back and is in that Milner role, do we want him (or Salah) being the guys who just maintain width for us allowing us to stretch sides. Surely we have all seen now we need him centrally as he is our best player between the lines linking play? We haven't been waiting all season to get him back only to see him used as a central winger. It was Klopp bringing him off the wing that kick started his career .

Gomez on the ball was horrendous today. But that didn't matter as we won of course but until we were winning it was really wearing me down. If this is something we will persist with, at least until we can sign a #6 that suits the system, I would be tempted to play Can there as it solves two problems in one. It stops him running forward to walk back, also his distribution from that position in terms of the long/switch passes that Gomez failed with every time is something Can could actually pull off more often than not.

A good win. A much needed 3 points but I do find myself here with far more questions than answers at the moment.

[Charles Foster Kane]

Out of possession, we played the same system as ever. However, our buildup formation has changed. Instead of our #6 dropping between split center backs, which wasn't working as we have no #6 willing to hold position - Moreno would push up into his usual left wing position, Gomez would hold back as the right center back and Matip would be in that #6 position and Milner/Salah would offer width on the right.

There are a couple of things to note about this, firstly - This is EXACTLY what we should have been doing already. It's just that instead of center backs splitting and #6 dropping in, we have 3 of the defenders sitting back and the #6 being free to play as he likes. Secondly, with our squad, this likely isn't sustainable. For me it feels like a solution to our lack of a #6 problem more than a change that we will commit to over the mid/long term. It feels like Klopp conceding that the defence are not offering the right protection to the defence when we attack - which I think means we will see a #6 who does so in the near future.

It wasn't noticed today but Huddesfield never attacked out backline at all. However against a better side, like Leicester, Gomez would still be a right back in our defensive shape which means he still needs to deal with wingers 1-v-1, something he isn't physically suited to doing and it shows. Also how does this system work with TAA or Clyne in the side? It doesn't really. Plus with Salah required to maintain width a lot of the time, it was noticable how much less he was involved in and around their box compared to usual until the game opened up - which is a problem as we then somewhat limiting the attacking threat of our most dangerous attacking player.

Likewise when Lallana is back and is in that Milner role, do we want him (or Salah) being the guys who just maintain width for us allowing us to stretch sides. Surely we have all seen now we need him centrally as he is our best player between the lines linking play? We haven't been waiting all season to get him back only to see him used as a central winger. It was Klopp bringing him off the wing that kick started his career .

Gomez on the ball was horrendous today. But that didn't matter as we won of course but until we were winning it was really wearing me down. If this is something we will persist with, at least until we can sign a #6 that suits the system, I would be tempted to play Can there as it solves two problems in one. It stops him running forward to walk back, also his distribution from that position in terms of the long/switch passes that Gomez failed with every time is something Gomez could actually pull off more often than not.

A good win. A much needed 3 points but I do find myself here with far more questions than answers at the moment.

Good post but it begs the question why we don't have players that strengthens the way we really want to play.

[killer-heels]

Out of possession, we played the same system as ever. However, our buildup formation has changed. Instead of our #6 dropping between split center backs, which wasn't working as we have no #6 willing to hold position - Moreno would push up into his usual left wing position, Gomez would hold back as the right center back and Matip would be in that #6 position and Milner/Salah would offer width on the right.

There are a couple of things to note about this, firstly - This is EXACTLY what we should have been doing already. It's just that instead of center backs splitting and #6 dropping in, we have 3 of the defenders sitting back and the #6 being free to play as he likes. Secondly, with our squad, this likely isn't sustainable. For me it feels like a solution to our lack of a #6 problem more than a change that we will commit to over the mid/long term. It feels like Klopp conceding that the midfield are not offering the right protection to the defence when we attack - which I think means we will see a #6 who does so in the near future.

It wasn't noticed today but Huddesfield never attacked out backline at all. However against a better side, like Leicester, Gomez would still be a right back in our defensive shape which means he still needs to deal with wingers 1-v-1, something he isn't physically suited to doing and it shows. Also how does this system work with TAA or Clyne in the side? It doesn't really. Plus with Salah required to maintain width a lot of the time, it was noticable how much less he was involved in and around their box compared to usual until the game opened up - which is a problem as we then somewhat limiting the attacking threat of our most dangerous attacking player.

Likewise when Lallana is back and is in that Milner role, do we want him (or Salah) being the guys who just maintain width for us allowing us to stretch sides. Surely we have all seen now we need him centrally as he is our best player between the lines linking play? We haven't been waiting all season to get him back only to see him used as a central winger. It was Klopp bringing him off the wing that kick started his career .

Gomez on the ball was horrendous today. But that didn't matter as we won of course but until we were winning it was really wearing me down. If this is something we will persist with, at least until we can sign a #6 that suits the system, I would be tempted to play Can there as it solves two problems in one. It stops him running forward to walk back, also his distribution from that position in terms of the long/switch passes that Gomez failed with every time is something Can could actually pull off more often than not.

A good win. A much needed 3 points but I do find myself here with far more questions than answers at the moment.

I also thought Gomez was poor on the ball. He defended ok for what he had to do but there were a number of lazy passes.

[Triad]

snip

Great post mate.Surely the problem with having three of the back 4 deep instead of a CM will effect the way we build up as the defenders will simply be not good enough vertical passers.In the long run I think Klopp will go back to Henderson deeper and tactics similar to what we played last season.But I would very much like if he would use tactics like this (3 defenders at the back) against better sides especially in Europe as it gives us better defensive stability rather than Hendo deeper.

[BabuYagu]

Good post but it begs the question why we don't have players that strengthens the way we really want to play.

I touched on this a few times in the midfield thread but I think Klopp was unsure - until now - what he needed in midfield in the Premier League.

He saw his favourite midfielder (Sahin) come here and look lost. A player who is tactically and technically excellent, but just lacking a little physically. Which meant he couldn't build the midfield how he usually would. He also didn't have a player who could turn on the ball and link play and has the range of Gundogan. So our midfield has become very good physically with every player we deploy in central midfield a natural runner rather than a tactically intelligent midfielder like Busquets or Alonso who just shifts small distances plugging gaps and holds their position. The logic behind that is that in a more physical and intense league - you need someone with better mobility. In reality though, you don't. Not from the #6 anyway. If you have someone who will do that running for them, as Masch did for Alonso, then it works just find. The defence will always have that shield that they need in front of them and the #6 will have someone nearby who will chase threats into the corners allowing him to maintain his position.

I suspect today was his resignation that neither Can or Henderson can play that #6 role how he requires. I could be reading too much into it but I was waiting for something to happen to indicate Klopp's plan with the #6 in his side as the "Protect the defence" aspect of the role wasn't happening. To see it stripped out of the role and have Matip move into that role in attack tells me he can't rely on the players available to play the #6 how he needs to afford the defence that protection.

[BabuYagu]

Great post mate.Surely the problem with having three of the back 4 deep instead of a CM will effect the way we build up as the defenders will simply be not good enough vertical passers.In the long run I think Klopp will go back to Henderson deeper and tactics similar to what we played last season.But I would very much like if he would use tactics like this (3 defenders at the back) against better sides especially in Europe as it gives us better defensive stability rather than Hendo deeper.

I just think he will go out now and buy someone who does those two things for him. Protects the defence and play quick, accurate vertical passes.

Klavan is actually a very very good passer of the ball. Not as good as Sakho or Lucas, but it's somethign that goes unnoticed because people are just willing him not to fuck up they maybe don't notice. As mentioned before, Can in that role Gomez played today may work better for us. He's got far more experience as a full back than Gomez having played there for both Leverkusen and Germany - it would also solve our biggest problem with him at the moment - namely his desire to run forward and then walk back leaving the defence exposed time and time again.

[Charles Foster Kane]

I touched on this a few times in the midfield thread but I think Klopp was unsure - until now - what he needed in midfield in the Premier League.

He saw his favourite midfielder (Sahin) come here and look lost. A player who is tactically and technically excellent, but just lacking a little physically. Which meant he couldn't build the midfield how he usually would. He also didn't have a player who could turn on the ball and link play and has the range of Gundogan. So our midfield has become very good physically with every player we deploy in central midfield a natural runner rather than a tactically intelligent midfielder like Busquets or Alonso who just shifts small distances plugging gaps and holds their position. The logic behind that is that in a more physical and intense league - you need someone with better mobility. In reality though, you don't. Not from the #6 anyway. If you have someone who will do that running for them, as Masch did for Alonso, then it works just find. The defence will always have that shield that they need in front of them and the #6 will have someone nearby who will chase threats into the corners allowing him to maintain his position.

I suspect today was his resignation that neither Can or Henderson can play that #6 role how he requires. I could be reading too much into it but I was waiting for something to happen to indicate Klopp's plan with the #6 in his side as the "Protect the defence" aspect of the role wasn't happening. To see it stripped out of the role and have Matip move into that role in attack tells me he can't rely on the players available to play the #6 how he needs to afford the defence that protection.

Interesting. And Gundogan hasn't set the league on fire either. But I think Klopp has watched the PL all his life more or less so he should know. Maybe he had to adapt differently, I buy that, but he should know what kind of players he needed.

EDIT: And Sahin wasn't that good in Spain either.

[killer-heels]

Sahin played as a number 8 for us. Remember Klopp saying in an interview that he wasnt used right when he was here.

Interesting. And Gundogan hasn't set the league on fire either. But I think Klopp has watched the PL all his life more or less so he should know. Maybe he had to adapt differently, I buy that, but he should know what kind of players he needed.

Gundogan has been injured quite a lot. He also has played as an 8.

[Charles Foster Kane]

Sahin played as a number 8 for us.

I edited my post to say that Sahin wasn't good in Spain either. Trying to say that I think the problem was with the player.

[Eeyore]

Out of possession, we played the same system as ever. However, our buildup formation has changed. Instead of our #6 dropping between split center backs, which wasn't working as we have no #6 willing to hold position - Moreno would push up into his usual left wing position, Gomez would hold back as the right center back and Matip would be in that #6 position and Milner/Salah would offer width on the right.

There are a couple of things to note about this, firstly - This is EXACTLY what we should have been doing already. It's just that instead of center backs splitting and #6 dropping in, we have 3 of the defenders sitting back and the #6 being free to play as he likes. Secondly, with our squad, this likely isn't sustainable. For me it feels like a solution to our lack of a #6 problem more than a change that we will commit to over the mid/long term. It feels like Klopp conceding that the midfield are not offering the right protection to the defence when we attack - which I think means we will see a #6 who does so in the near future.

It wasn't noticed today but Huddesfield never attacked out backline at all. However against a better side, like Leicester, Gomez would still be a right back in our defensive shape which means he still needs to deal with wingers 1-v-1, something he isn't physically suited to doing and it shows. Also how does this system work with TAA or Clyne in the side? It doesn't really. Plus with Salah required to maintain width a lot of the time, it was noticable how much less he was involved in and around their box compared to usual until the game opened up - which is a problem as we then somewhat limiting the attacking threat of our most dangerous attacking player.

Likewise when Lallana is back and is in that Milner role, do we want him (or Salah) being the guys who just maintain width for us allowing us to stretch sides. Surely we have all seen now we need him centrally as he is our best player between the lines linking play? We haven't been waiting all season to get him back only to see him used as a central winger. It was Klopp bringing him off the wing that kick started his career .

Gomez on the ball was horrendous today. But that didn't matter as we won of course but until we were winning it was really wearing me down. If this is something we will persist with, at least until we can sign a #6 that suits the system, I would be tempted to play Can there as it solves two problems in one. It stops him running forward to walk back, also his distribution from that position in terms of the long/switch passes that Gomez failed with every time is something Can could actually pull off more often than not.

A good win. A much needed 3 points but I do find myself here with far more questions than answers at the moment.

Yeh it was a strange formation today.

First half we had Gomez basically sitting in alongside the centre backs but far too often Henderson still dropped out of midfield and we ended up with four players behind the ball whilst in possession. The big change for me was second half when Henderson basically went box to box.

We had far more energy and were far more positive. Agree about Gomez he was decent when he had to defend but was far too passive in possession.

As you say it is hard to work out where we go from here. Today we had so many players either out of position or playing different roles it was untrue. Milner for instance seemed to have a free role. There was a couple of minutes in the second half where he dropped between the centre backs like a traditional six and then popped up on the wing. I love to see players interchanging positions and moving the opposition around but I can't work out how we can continually change the formation and personnel and still press effectively. 

[BabuYagu]

Interesting. And Gundogan hasn't set the league on fire either. But I think Klopp has watched the PL all his life more or less so he should know. Maybe he had to adapt differently, I buy that, but he should know what kind of players he needed.

I just think it gave him a moment of doubt. If Sahin can't make it in the Premier League, does that mean he would need to build a different looking midfield to what he would in Germany?

The reality almost all players will have an adjustment period for the Premier League. Henry had something like 1 goal in 17 when he first moved here. Some hit the ground running but they are certainly the exception. I also think Sahin wasn't that bad here, just like Klopp, think he was used wrong by Rodgers. I remember he played a cup game in central midfield for us and ran the game at one point.

Something else to look out for if you watch this game back is Gini's role in midfield today. Milner and Henderson seemed to play with tactical freedom to roam and press when they liked. Gini's job seemed to be mostly to cover for them. A lot of the time he ended up as the #6 just by the fact Henderson was pushing up to support attacks or pressing. Also there was one moment around the 60 minute mark which illustrated why you need Gini instead of Can in our system. An attack broke down after Gini made a late run into the box. He runs across and blocks the keeper from making an early distribution and then runs to get back into midfield. To slow down their progress on the counter. He gets in front of the ball carrier, turns him, pushes him back. Once he noticed Henderson is back in his position he then chases after the ball for a full 15 seconds as he was the guy on the front foot. Brilliant play, statistically it shows as zeros across the board of course as he made no tackles, interceptions or anything else. But it was textbook counter pressing.

If that was Emre Can he would instead have simply walked back at his own leisure based on performances this season.

[Charles Foster Kane]

I just think it gave him a moment of doubt. If Sahin can't make it in the Premier League, does that mean he would need to build a different looking midfield to what he would in Germany?

The reality almost all players will have an adjustment period for the Premier League. Henry had something like 1 goal in 17 when he first moved here. Some hit the ground running but they are certainly the exception. I also think Sahin wasn't that bad here, just like Klopp, think he was used wrong by Rodgers. I remember he played a cup game in central midfield for us and ran the game at one point.

Something else to look out for if you watch this game back is Gini's role in midfield today. Milner and Henderson seemed to play with tactical freedom to roam and press when they liked. Gini's job seemed to be mostly to cover for them. A lot of the time he ended up as the #6 just by the fact Henderson was pushing up to support attacks or pressing. Also there was one moment around the 60 minute mark which illustrated why you need Gini instead of Can in our system. An attack broke down after Gini made a late run into the box. He runs across and blocks the keeper from making an early distribution and then runs to get back into midfield. To slow down their progress on the counter. He gets in front of the ball carrier, turns him, pushes him back. Once he noticed Henderson is back in his position he then chases after the ball for a full 15 seconds as he was the guy on the front foot. Brilliant play, statistically it shows as zeros across the board of course as he made no tackles, interceptions or anything else. But it was textbook counter pressing.

If that was Emre Can he would instead have simply walked back at his own leisure based on performances this season.

Fair enough. Gini is an enigma just by himself though.

Georginio Wijnaldum

Away games in the PL: 41
Goals: 0

Home games in the PL: 41
Goals: 18

[BabuYagu]

Yeh it was a strange formation today.

First half we had Gomez basically sitting in alongside the centre backs but far too often Henderson still dropped out of midfield and we ended up with four players behind the ball whilst in possession. The big change for me was second half when Henderson basically went box to box.

We had far more energy and were far more positive. Agree about Gomez he was decent when he had to defend but was far too passive in possession.

As you say it is hard to work out where we go from here. Today we had so many players either out of position or playing different roles it was untrue. Milner for instance seemed to have a free role. There was a couple of minutes in the second half where he dropped between the centre backs like a traditional six and then popped up on the wing. I love to see players interchanging positions and moving the opposition around but I can't work out how we can continually change the formation and personnel and still press effectively.

Long term - just cannot see us persisting with this at all. Too many players have no place in this system - although it does seem to best suit our collection of midfielders. Therefore it seems like a tactical hack to solve a problem short term before he gets the player(s) he needs med/long term. Which means a #6 and CB I think.

Klopp also went mental at Sturridge today on my stream. Firmino was pressing the ball carrier and chased him across the pitch. He ended up over near Salah's zone. Sturridge  should have shifted across to the left for Bobby but instead just stayed where he was, lazily (or greddily as he wanted to stay central near the goal).

[Charles Foster Kane]

Long term - just cannot see us persisting with this at all. Too many players have no place in this system - although it does seem to best suit our collection of midfielders. Therefore it seems like a tactical hack to solve a problem short term before he gets the player(s) he needs med/long term. Which means a #6 and CB I think.

Which means that after 24 months at the club he's still hacking it. I don't get that. Or rather, it shouldn't be like that. But fair enough, if he gets it right in the end it doesn't really matter. I'm behind him.

[Eeyore]

Long term - just cannot see us persisting with this at all. Too many players have no place in this system - although it does seem to best suit our collection of midfielders. Therefore it seems like a tactical hack to solve a problem short term before he gets the player(s) he needs med/long term. Which means a #6 and CB I think.

Klopp also went mental at Sturridge today on my stream. Firmino was pressing the ball carrier and chased him across the pitch. He ended up over near Salah's zone. Sturridge  should have shifted across to the left for Bobby but instead just stayed where he was, lazily (or greddily as he wanted to stay central near the goal).

I wonder how much of today was about Klopp coming up against Wagner. Klopp was up against the Coach who knows Klopp and his methods better than anyone else. Today we were very fluid in a formation sense with the front three and midfield probably exchanging position more than I have ever seen from a Klopp side.

As I said earlier Milner dropped in as a six at times and Salah had a spell in the first half where he played through the middle.

The surprise for me is that Klopp is still persisting with resorting to hacks after two years here.

I had hoped we would be a bit closer to a line up that allows Klopp the luxury of setting up the way he wants to play the game by now.   

[Johnnyboy1973]

If that hack, means never having to see Henderson run backwards to Matip and take the ball of his toes, then so be it.

At one point in the first half Matip waves him away but he just doesn't get it.

[BabuYagu]

Btw - their only shot today was from a direct freekick that went over the bar.

Which means that after 24 months at the club he's still hacking it. I don't get that. Or rather, it shouldn't be like that. But fair enough, if he gets it right in the end it doesn't really matter. I'm behind him.

I think that was always going to be the case though. He was going to give players, particularly the key squad players, time to adapt themselves to a role in his system.

If you look at the squad he inherited, who would fit a role in his Dortmund system perfectly? Not many at all, which would mean selling almost the lot of them an starting again. Ultimately, that may be where we end up in 12 months time especially if Coutinho leaves. Maybe only Moreno, Firmino, Clyne & Origi will remain - of which only Clyne was first choice for his role at the time Klopp came in.

If that hack, means never having to see Henderson run backwards to Matip and take the ball of his toes, then so be it.

At one point in the first half Matip waves him away but he just doesn't get it.

I think after January, or the summer if our targets aren't available (assuming/hoping our targets are the likes of Weigl, Saul, Fabinho) we will likely not be seeing Henderson in that #6 position anymore.

I suspect Klopp will finally give up the attempt to mould existing players into the system and just but the spine he needs now. GK, CB, #6, Keita, Firmino. Mignolet just isn't the elite goalkeeper that we need to challenge for trophies and at his age and shows no sign of becoming one with coaching. Lovren is also regressing. Henderson just isn't a #6. He's a box to box midfielder in a system which doesn't use one. If he could turn, play in tight spaces and link play like Keita then he would fit the #8 in the system. But he doesn't. So we signed Keita.

[Charles Foster Kane]

Btw - their only shot today was from a direct freekick that went over the bar.
I think that was always going to be the case though. He was going to give players, particularly the key squad players, time to adapt themselves to a role in his system.

If you look at the squad he inherited, who would fit a role in his Dortmund system perfectly? Not many at all, which would mean selling almost the lot of them an starting again. Ultimately, that may be where we end up in 12 months time especially if Coutinho leaves. Maybe only Moreno, Firmino, Clyne & Origi will remain - of which only Clyne was first choice for his role at the time Klopp came in.

That's actually where I'm getting at. I just don't see that's what we're doing.

[BabuYagu]

I wonder how much of today was about Klopp coming up against Wagner. Klopp was up against the Coach who knows Klopp and his methods better than anyone else. Today we were very fluid in a formation sense with the front three and midfield probably exchanging position more than I have ever seen from a Klopp side.

As I said earlier Milner dropped in as a six at times and Salah had a spell in the first half where he played through the middle.

The surprise for me is that Klopp is still persisting with resorting to hacks after two years here.

I had hoped we would be a bit closer to a line up that allows Klopp the luxury of setting up the way he wants to play the game by now.

Interesting question. In truth, I hope not much. Because that would mean going forward we will be back to having our full backs providing width - one of whom in Gomez shouldn't be playing full back. A midfield that offers minimal protection in front. Can in midfield working as ass off to get forward where he will put out a deck chair and watch us deal with the counter attacks while he waits for the ball again.

I have to believe this is a watershed moment where we realise a midfield of runners isn't going to work, going forwards. Particularly in the #6 role. For my own sanity. Rather than it being a game system against his mate who knows him well