Topic: The Klopp Template

[pathetic]

We didn't go 433.  Elliott played right wing and Mo went up front.

In that case Elliott seemed to be coming in centrally much more than Salah did.

[Xanderzone]

I hope we don't revert to type and go back to 4-3-3 on Sunday and bring Fabinho in for one of the attackers.

Give this 4-2-3-1 a proper go.

[Dree]

In that case Elliott seemed to be coming in centrally much more than Salah did.

Yeah this was my point above, Elliot still drifted and Milner was Milner, we could easily have gone 2-1 and had a nervous few minutes.

Shame if Arthur can’t be a better option than Milner.

[Schmidt]

Yeah this was my point above, Elliot still drifted and Milner was Milner, we could easily have gone 2-1 and had a nervous few minutes.

Shame if Arthur can’t be a better option than Milner.

Melo wasn't on the bench so presumably illness/injury came up and he would have got minutes otherwise.

The change yesterday felt like more than the formation. Trent sat noticeably deeper and that combined with Henderson also sitting quite deep meant we had a fair amount of cover on the right, though obviously we need to see how that pans out against pacier forwards. Thiago was maybe a little more restrained too although he's generally pretty solid regardless.

Another nice benefit is that since we have such a small pool of midfielders available, and they all function well in that six role, we're able to rotate more when only using two so we have a better chance of keeping energy levels high and injuries less frequent. It might also better suit the ever increasing age profile of our midfield for a while, since they have less ground to cover.

I found it a bit strange that once again Elliot and Milner come into the team and proceed to just do exactly what they normally do, getting high and wide and leaving gaps for the opposition. With all of the talk of how hardworking and disciplined Elliot is I really don't understand why he keeps playing in a role that leaves us horribly exposed, although it does seem clear now that it's a last resort and we likely wouldn't use him with everyone fit.

[tubby]

Yeah this was my point above, Elliot still drifted and Milner was Milner, we could easily have gone 2-1 and had a nervous few minutes.

Shame if Arthur can’t be a better option than Milner.

Did have a chuckle when I saw Milner wandering over to the left wing position a couple of times.  Not sure it would've been a chuckle had the score been tighter.

[El Lobo]

I can understand Elliott, but no idea why Milner is getting minutes after his start to the season.

Its not helping for sure. I absolutely love Millie, but frankly at the moment (certainly until we're playing better) he should be pretty limited to maybe five/ten minutes at the end of the game to run the ball into the corner.

[Xanderzone]

Yeah I don't want to be adding to the multitude of criticism coming Millie's way but you can't ignore the fact that Rangers didn't lay a glove on us for 80 minutes but as soon as he came on they started wading through our midfield.

I get that Klopp will feel immense love and loyalty to Milner but Father Time catches us with every player eventually.

[Schmidt]

I think fitness is a huge driving force behind our subs right now, more so than loyalty or tactics, so if the fitness team says a player can play for 70 minutes then they play for 70 minutes and Milner gets the last 20 due to a lack of alternatives.

We really need to stop considering him an option though, he's not a safe conservative option any more to run out the final minutes, opposition teams see him jog on and immediately start targeting whatever position he takes up. Those two points we dropped against Brighton annoyed me more than the majority of points we've dropped this season because most of us knew as soon as we saw Milner and Elliot coming on that we were going to fuck it up.

[El Lobo]

I think fitness is a huge driving force behind our subs right now, more so than loyalty or tactics, so if the fitness team says a player can play for 70 minutes then they play for 70 minutes and Milner gets the last 20 due to a lack of alternatives.

We really need to stop considering him an option though, he's not a safe conservative option any more to run out the final minutes, opposition teams see him jog on and immediately start targeting whatever position he takes up. Those two points we dropped against Brighton annoyed me more than the majority of points we've dropped this season because most of us knew as soon as we saw Milner and Elliot coming on that we were going to fuck it up.

To be fair I didn't realise how late Millie came on (81 minutes). Thats worrying....because it seemed like it was half hour or so. If we're looking to hold I'd rather go back to the tried and tested Joe Gomez, switch to a back three.

[Eeyore]

To be fair I didn't realise how late Millie came on (81 minutes). Thats worrying....because it seemed like it was half hour or so. If we're looking to hold I'd rather go back to the tried and tested Joe Gomez, switch to a back three.

Hendo and Thiago are coming back from injury and will almost certainly start at the weekend. For me it was about managing their minutes.

[Dim Glas]

Yeah I don't want to be adding to the multitude of criticism coming Millie's way but you can't ignore the fact that Rangers didn't lay a glove on us for 80 minutes but as soon as he came on they started wading through our midfield.

I get that Klopp will feel immense love and loyalty to Milner but Father Time catches us with every player eventually.

It’s more that the options are not there I would hope though.

It really should be a case of a few mins at the end of games or cup games for Milner.  We have an absolute shit ton of games this month of course, so the coaches will be working overtime in trying to keep the squad reasonably fresh, and the midfield is going to be the toughest part to keep fresh. So it’s going to be quite a nerve jangling month I suspect, as we’ll see Milner in plenty of games and we’ll have to hope Fab gets his shit together soon and that Thiago stays fit 

[will2003]

Saw this video https://youtu.be/oXbsVVpe3F4 this morning and thought it sums up our problems to an extend and how other teams have spotted where we are weakest. Not the full picture but a decent analysis of last night vs other games

[Xanderzone]

It’s more that the options are not there I would hope though.

It really should be a case of a few mins at the end of games or cup games for Milner.  We have an absolute shit ton of games this month of course, so the coaches will be working overtime in trying to keep the squad reasonably fresh, and the midfield is going to be the toughest part to keep fresh. So it’s going to be quite a nerve jangling month I suspect, as we’ll see Milner in plenty of games and we’ll have to hope Fab gets his shit together soon and that Thiago stays fit 

In all honesty though I'm not sure he can even do that anymore which is sad.

If there was sports science reasons why Tsimikas couldn't play the full 90 against Brighton, it should have been Gomez brought on to see the game out. That's not a knee jerk to this season either, I never wanted to see Milner at full back again after the City game last season at Anfield.

As for last night, it showed that even as a late sub with the thinking that his experience and know how will help us see the game out, his failing body was on show.

In all honesty Bajcetic is a better option on the basis that he can run.

[Lynndenberries]

Given our lack of midfield options, Henderson's struggles as an 8, and Trent's lack of cover, I hope we stick with what we saw yesterday. Similar to the Ajax match, we were much more compact and Trent stayed deeper. We have numerous options in attack and we should be using those to our advantage. The irony of having 4 attackers on the pitch is we look more solid defensively. You would think the opposite would be true, but there just aren't as many gaps at the back.

I still don't understand our fascination with moving Trent further and further up the pitch. Part of the beauty of him as a fullback is he gets that extra space to pick out a pass. When he wanders into the attacking third and into midfield, he loses those opportunities.

[Lynndenberries]

Others have mentioned it, but does it matter if its a 4-2-2 or 4-2-3-1? It was obvious how fluid that front four can be. On several occasions, we saw Jota dropping deeper, Diaz coming into the middle, and Nunez venturing out to the left. It's not as black and white as some are making it out to be.

[Samie]

Average positions they took up last night.

[Lynndenberries]

Average positions they took up last night.

I hope we continue with a similar shape. There have been several occasions where our two 8's have been hugging the touchline with our fullbacks, leaving us incredible exposed. Here, we actually have two midfielders in the middle of the pitch and Trent in what seems like his usual position.

[wemmick]

Given our lack of midfield options, Henderson's struggles as an 8, and Trent's lack of cover, I hope we stick with what we saw yesterday. Similar to the Ajax match, we were much more compact and Trent stayed deeper. We have numerous options in attack and we should be using those to our advantage. The irony of having 4 attackers on the pitch is we look more solid defensively. You would think the opposite would be true, but there just aren't as many gaps at the back.

I still don't understand our fascination with moving Trent further and further up the pitch. Part of the beauty of him as a fullback is he gets that extra space to pick out a pass. When he wanders into the attacking third and into midfield, he loses those opportunities.

Agreed. I think we look more solid because the team isn't trying to create chances from the back. Salah and Diaz are creative enough to carry the attack with two of Jota, Nunez, or Firmino in the middle, and one overlapping fullback. We don't need the fullbacks to drive chance creation at the risk of positional suicide down the flanks. Why we have been doing it only Klopp and Ljinders can answer. I haven't been shy about saying it has been a mad experiment.   

I really hope we don't go back to the 4-3-3 with Trent in a free role. We looked so much more balanced last night, irrespective of playing limited opposition. 

[wemmick]

Others have mentioned it, but does it matter if its a 4-2-2 or 4-2-3-1? It was obvious how fluid that front four can be. On several occasions, we saw Jota dropping deeper, Diaz coming into the middle, and Nunez venturing out to the left. It's not as black and white as some are making it out to be.

Some of the attacking fluidity and patterns were vintage Dortmund under Klopp.

[Lynndenberries]

I really hope we don't go back to the 4-3-3 with Trent in a free role. We looked so much more balanced last night, irrespective of playing limited opposition.

We just don't have the personnel for it right now. If we make a few signings this January and/or in the summer, then that's fine, but relying on our current options isn't going to work. We have at least 5 examples of being picked apart already this season.

[JasonF]

Others have mentioned it, but does it matter if its a 4-2-2 or 4-2-3-1? It was obvious how fluid that front four can be. On several occasions, we saw Jota dropping deeper, Diaz coming into the middle, and Nunez venturing out to the left. It's not as black and white as some are making it out to be.

I'd say it matters a bit. We're unlikely to get over our struggles with only 9 players on the pitch.

[Schmidt]

I hope we continue with a similar shape. There have been several occasions where our two 8's have been hugging the touchline with our fullbacks, leaving us incredible exposed. Here, we actually have two midfielders in the middle of the pitch and Trent in what seems like his usual position.

Our midfield positions seem to be heavily influenced by who is playing which is strange. I always thought the two 8 positions required a lot of discipline and understanding of how we play, which is why players like Ox and Keita took a while to get regular games, but everyone seems free to interpret the role differently now. I think it's been a major part of our problems.

[Lynndenberries]

Our midfield positions seem to be heavily influenced by who is playing which is strange. I always thought the two 8 positions required a lot of discipline and understanding of how we play, which is why players like Ox and Keita took a while to get regular games, but everyone seems free to interpret the role differently now. I think it's been a major part of our problems.

We just don't have the same athleticism in my opinion. Henderson and Milner are older, Wijnaldum is gone, Fabinho looks exhausted, Elliott is young and doesn't have the physicality... leaving us with very little options. Even if they were disciplined, they can't get up and down the pitch like we saw in 2018 and 2019.

[Dave McCoy]

If the players and manager are calling it a 4-4-2 then who's to argue? I agree it's kind of pointless but then again Jota was not a dedicated 10 so I think it does somewhat misstate or change the expectation for what he was doing. He had the same amount of passes as Nunez so he clearly wasn't there to orchestrate anything which is what I think most expect when talking about that role in that formation.

As far as staying with this formation vs. going back to the 4-3-3, if you're basically going to have a back 5 where Trent stays put then either should work. You can't compare one formation to the other without acknowledging the roles the players were asked to perform were different. Nothing is stopping Klopp from having Trent plus the LCB/DM stay reserved in a 4-3-3, we've done it plenty over the years to boot. So I don't think it really matters insofar as you still ask those players in those specific roles to not just go walkabout from minute 1.

Our midfield positions seem to be heavily influenced by who is playing which is strange. I always thought the two 8 positions required a lot of discipline and understanding of how we play, which is why players like Ox and Keita took a while to get regular games, but everyone seems free to interpret the role differently now. I think it's been a major part of our problems.

Maybe because Elliott and Carvalho aren't actually midfielders? I'd say this also applies to Jones in a way as well. Keita got regular games right away, he started 4 of the first 5 games of the 18/19 season. Ox's issue was that he wasn't playing as a midfielder for Arsenal to begin with.

[Fromola]

I hope we don't revert to type and go back to 4-3-3 on Sunday and bring Fabinho in for one of the attackers.

Give this 4-2-3-1 a proper go.

It's a difficult one as playing with 4 forwards at Emirates is going to leave you open but then our midfield 3 isn't working either. The tactics yesterday were ideal against a team we're much better than who were going to park the bus. Arsenal will take the game to us.

I think what we do need to do is keep a double pivot in midfield and have discipline with the full backs/defensive line. The question is whether we stay unchanged or bring in Fabinho for Jota and if we do how do we adapt to that tactically? The issue is Henderson can't really be box to box anymore, Fabinho is a DM and Thiago a deep lying playmaker.

The new formation could work with Keita in that 10 role and could finally see Keita really unleashed. Naturally he's injured though. Maybe Carvalho or Elliott could come in.

[Fromola]

If the players and manager are calling it a 4-4-2 then who's to argue? I agree it's kind of pointless but then again Jota was not a dedicated 10 so I think it does somewhat misstate or change the expectation for what he was doing. He had the same amount of passes as Nunez so he clearly wasn't there to orchestrate anything which is what I think most expect when talking about that role in that formation.

As far as staying with this formation vs. going back to the 4-3-3, if you're basically going to have a back 5 where Trent stays put then either should work. You can't compare one formation to the other without acknowledging the roles the players were asked to perform were different. Nothing is stopping Klopp from having Trent plus the LCB/DM stay reserved in a 4-3-3, we've done it plenty over the years to boot. So I don't think it really matters insofar as you still ask those players in those specific roles to not just go walkabout from minute 1.

Formations adapt to the team picked as well though. 4-4-2 can essentially just be 4-2-4 if your two wingers are forwards and you're going to struggle to carry that against the top sides (i.e. next 2 PL games). We had 4 forwards playing. It's obviously a lot different to Ged's 4-4-2 sides.

[ljycb]

As far as staying with this formation vs. going back to the 4-3-3, if you're basically going to have a back 5 where Trent stays put then either should work. You can't compare one formation to the other without acknowledging the roles the players were asked to perform were different. Nothing is stopping Klopp from having Trent plus the LCB/DM stay reserved in a 4-3-3, we've done it plenty over the years to boot. So I don't think it really matters insofar as you still ask those players in those specific roles to not just go walkabout from minute 1.

Spot on.

[Angelius]

Interesting to see Hendo's average position as slightly deeper than Thiago.

These maps need to be contextualized but it's interesting because Hendo seemed to have more license to get forward than Thiago did, which suits both their games well. For Hendo, it still utilizes his running but in a more restrained manner where he's still behind the ball 90% of the time. I think that suits his game and mitigates his weaknesses really well.

I think this is the one piece that differentiates a 4-2-whatever with a conservative 4-3-3. The deep, compact, tighter central two is as important to plugging gaps as are the conservative (position-wise) full-backs. You can see that Trent was still plenty creative but held a deeper position. Tsimi had more license to support the left-hand wing. I think the holding two midfield is critical to make these pieces work, while also of course allowing the front four to float and switch positions when we have the ball. So even when we lose the ball and the forwards might be initially out of position, we have a compact midfield and backline where the opposing team still can't easily play through us.

I think it holds a lot of promise for the personnel we currently have. I also think the front four will only get better as they get used to the system and playing with each other. So I think we should stick to it as long as it pays dividends for us.

[plura]

Others have mentioned it, but does it matter if its a 4-2-2 or 4-2-3-1? It was obvious how fluid that front four can be. On several occasions, we saw Jota dropping deeper, Diaz coming into the middle, and Nunez venturing out to the left. It's not as black and white as some are making it out to be.

No it doesn’t matter what it’s called, or listed as we were looking so much better. Several good reasons listed here. First we got four players on there with lots of pace and energy. Just that in itself is useful. Then of course they were our attacking options which also meant we looked dangerous and pushed our opponents back and made them nervous.

Then what else happened is our midfield could ‘sit’ more comfortably in their positions knowing the players ahead and behind them were occupying space and just doing their jobs really well. So no endless wandering or getting drawn to high up. More or less occupying that midfield space most of the match. And lastly I thought Trent and the whole defence looked further back and more cohesive.

No, it was Rangers and not Napoli or some of the league teams. But I really hope we continue with it.

[killer-heels]

That average positions look great, loved Trent in that role. Also really liked the two in midfield.

[Eeyore]

That average positions look great, loved Trent in that role. Also really liked the two in midfield.

The test will be if we can play out from the back against a high press. It will presumably be much harder to do with a double pivot and Trent not pushing on.

[Knight]

It’s so much better getting Trent to play deeper and putting 2 CMs in the middle of the pitch. Whether we then play a genuine forward or Elliot/Carvalho as the 4th forward/ 3rd midfielder matters much less than those 2 things. That said, I suspect we’re much dangerous going forward with 4 genuine forwards on the pitch.

[Knight]

The test will be if we can play out from the back against a high press. It will presumably be much harder to do with a double pivot and Trent not pushing on.

Agreed. And i think we were forced to kick it long by rangers more than is ideal. And more than we would have of it had been a 433. Firmino as the 10 would help with that. So would Elliot as the 10.

[Schmidt]

Maybe because Elliott and Carvalho aren't actually midfielders? I'd say this also applies to Jones in a way as well. Keita got regular games right away, he started 4 of the first 5 games of the 18/19 season. Ox's issue was that he wasn't playing as a midfielder for Arsenal to begin with.

No arguments from me on Elliot, I really don't understand why we're persisting with that experiment regardless of injuries. I'd disagree on Jones though, he looked like he put a lot of hard work in to be a more well rounded midfielder and improved a lot, which has made Elliot coming in and just straight up playing as a forward all the more baffling.

[tubby]

Yeah Jones for me is a centre mid now.  Elliott is a 10.

[Eeyore]

I think the way we have deployed our midfield players over the last couple of years is colouring people's views.

We have almost played with three sixes spread across the pitch. Our centre mids have been given very little license to get ahead of the ball.

Their role has been to sit and allow the full backs to get ahead of the ball.

That doesn't really suit Elliott. However if Trent plays a more traditional full back role then there is no reason why Elliott couldn't play as an eight in a 1-2 midfield. He would be an even better fit in a 2-1 midfield in the role Lallana played.

[Dave McCoy]

No arguments from me on Elliot, I really don't understand why we're persisting with that experiment regardless of injuries. I'd disagree on Jones though, he looked like he put a lot of hard work in to be a more well rounded midfielder and improved a lot, which has made Elliot coming in and just straight up playing as a forward all the more baffling.

Jones isn't a well rounded midfielder though. He's just a more athletic version of Elliott or a less athletic version of Bellingham. He's really good on the ball around the opposition box but without the ball he doesn't really offer anything other than the fact he runs since he never actually wins the ball. If you were to play him with Elliott in a 3 or in a double pivot with anyone else we'd probably just be a sieve through the middle. Does that scream "well-rounded" midfielder to you?

[Eeyore]

Jones isn't a well rounded midfielder though. He's just a more athletic version of Elliott or a less athletic version of Bellingham. He's really good on the ball around the opposition box but without the ball he doesn't really offer anything other than the fact he runs since he never actually wins the ball. If you were to play him with Elliott in a 3 or in a double pivot with anyone else we'd probably just be a sieve through the middle. Does that scream "well-rounded" midfielder to you?

Jones played 853 minutes in the Premier League and made 11 tackles with a win rate of 82 percent.

[Schmidt]

Jones isn't a well rounded midfielder though. He's just a more athletic version of Elliott or a less athletic version of Bellingham. He's really good on the ball around the opposition box but without the ball he doesn't really offer anything other than the fact he runs since he never actually wins the ball. If you were to play him with Elliott in a 3 or in a double pivot with anyone else we'd probably just be a sieve through the middle. Does that scream "well-rounded" midfielder to you?

No, but then nothing you've said describes Jones so I'm not too worried about that.

Elliot's possession and passing stats all skew heavily towards the attacking third while Curtis is more in the middle third, he also racks up a lot more pressures and his pass success rate is way higher.

Ignoring the stats, whenever I've watched Curtis he's always looked like he's aiming more towards trying to play the Gini role rather than playing like an out and out forward like Elliot. His stats for last season do look a lot like Gini's did during his peak years actually, if anything he actually presses more but also is at more risk of losing the ball too, especially as he likes to shoot on sight.

Before his injuries he was still clearly a player trying to transition between roles, but at least he was transitioning. I think with everyone fit he's probably quite low in the pecking order, but I'd have him ahead of Elliot in midfield, who I wouldn't consider an option at all.

[Dave McCoy]

No, but then nothing you've said describes Jones so I'm not too worried about that.

Elliot's possession and passing stats all skew heavily towards the attacking third while Curtis is more in the middle third, he also racks up a lot more pressures and his pass success rate is way higher.

Ignoring the stats, whenever I've watched Curtis he's always looked like he's aiming more towards trying to play the Gini role rather than playing like an out and out forward like Elliot. His stats for last season do look a lot like Gini's did during his peak years actually, if anything he actually presses more but also is at more risk of losing the ball too, especially as he likes to shoot on sight.

Before his injuries he was still clearly a player trying to transition between roles, but at least he was transitioning. I think with everyone fit he's probably quite low in the pecking order, but I'd have him ahead of Elliot in midfield, who I wouldn't consider an option at all.

I don't really understand how you can equate not winning the ball, almost ever, to well rounded but to each their own.