Topic: Harvey Elliott (Harvey Daniel James Elliott)

[Chris~]

He's played about 50 games as a midfielder/8 for us. He is one for us. I'm not sure why there's this weird narrative that he's isn't a midifelder under Klopp, as if Klopp has been forced to play him there so often.

[Schmidt]

Saying '8' is slightly ambiguous here, he's already playing the role of 'our most advanced' midfielder pretty well, and at times very well, this season (whatever the general perception on here which has often been wildly wrong)
Our RCM is very often our most advanced midfielder of the 3  (depending on personnel) .. mostly because we want Salah and Trent a bit higher than their left sided counter parts ... in our classic somewhat flat midfield 3 Henderson was often higher up the pitch than Wijnaldam.

This season Harvey's one of the leading pressers per 90 in the league (he's in the top 5 possession adjusted)
His tackle plus interception number this season is 2.14 ... last season Henderson's was 2.04 (and Henderson pressed a lot less)

There's no doubt he can be our most advanced midfielder effectively in a 3, he already is at 19. It's mental to me that people can watch last week's game at Anfield and not think this

My concern, and maybe I'm not understanding the way we play here, is that pressing and tackling doesn't tell the full story. When we're in the ascendancy then pressing high and winning the ball is great for creating chances and protecting the defence, but when teams break past the midfield or are pinning us back, midfielders need to be disciplined, track runners, fill gaps, and help keep us solid until we can gain control and impose our football on the opposition again. Elliot is great at pressing high when the game is going our way, but when we need to dig in he's (on camera) literally nowhere to be seen.

I must be wrong about something because I find it kind of baffling that Klopp doesn't seem to care about this. Back when Keita got hauled off at half time on a couple of occasions my assumption was that this was the exact issue, he was great at the high press but not so great at the tactical discpline side of things, yet Elliot gets a free pass. Maybe someone else is supposed to be helping Trent, maybe we want him to stay high and expect our other midfielders to shift across to fill the gap, but whatever the plan is it doesn't seem to be working.

[decosabute]

He's played about 50 games as a midfielder/8 for us. He is one for us. I'm not sure why there's this weird narrative that he's isn't a midifelder under Klopp, as if Klopp has been forced to play him there so often.

Well, yeah, you can say he's a 'Klopp midfielder' because he is literally playing games as a midfielder under Jurgen Klopp. But has he been a successful midfielder? While there are certainly some examples of it working (last week), I'd argue the answer is mostly no.

[MonsLibpool]

Fair enough. I agree with you on the double standards with Bajcetic too. Partly, it's because of the lamentable state we were in when he was thrown into the team (after the away game at Brighton - still the absolute low point), which instantly made him look even better, not that he hasn't done really well. It's also partly because he's a newer toy, who hasn't really been sullied by this crap season yet - Bournemouth is the first really awful league performance he's been involved in.

The truth is though, they're both really promising players who suit certain games and not others, and will have good days and bad days for now.

Don't know if they should be together in midfield again for a while though.

I think it's because Bajcetic fits us tactically.

[decosabute]

I think it's because Bajcetic fits us tactically.

Yeah there's a bit of that too. Also, that Bajcetic is closer to the traditional idea people have of a Klopp midfielder - for better or worse, he's far closer to being a Gini Wijnaldum than Elliott is.

[Chris~]

Well, yeah, you can say he's a 'Klopp midfielder' because he is literally a midfielder under Jurgen Klopp, but has he been a successful midfielder? While there are certainly some examples of it working (last week), I'd argue the answer is mostly no.

Yes

[RedG13]

Yeah there's a bit of that too. Also, that Bajcetic is closer to the traditional idea people have of a Klopp midfielder - for better or worse, he's far closer to being a Gini Wijnaldum than Elliott is.

I also think ppl see 8 and think b2b more then the 10 role which he playing. He clearly has the skill to play there and Klopp keeps playing him there it obv views him as that, but he also still working on getting better in that role.
Bajcetic probably ends as a 6(and should still be managed on playing time rn)

[jepovic]

Yeah there's a bit of that too. Also, that Bajcetic is closer to the traditional idea people have of a Klopp midfielder - for better or worse, he's far closer to being a Gini Wijnaldum than Elliott is.

Klopp has always tried to get some more creativity into our midfield though. Coutinho was shifted there, Ox, Keita, Thiago, then Harvey. It has never worked as well for the team as the Gini/Fab/Hendo combination, but Klopp has kept trying.

There were also plenty of fans (me included) who were crying out for more creative midfielders even 2-3 years ago. We had this crazy team where we were scoring record numbers but the combined midfield contributed with just a handful of goals and assists.

I dont see why Harvey couldnt do a better job of back tracking. The goal was a classic example where he leaves Trent alone with two opponents, and we have seen it before. He has a great vision for our opportunities in attack, but he seems to have zero vision for what the opponents can do when they attack.

[decosabute]

Klopp has always tried to get some more creativity into our midfield though. Coutinho was shifted there, Ox, Keita, Thiago, then Harvey. It has never worked as well for the team as the Gini/Fab/Hendo combination, but Klopp has kept trying.

There were also plenty of fans (me included) who were crying out for more creative midfielders even 2-3 years ago. We had this crazy team where we were scoring record numbers but the combined midfield contributed with just a handful of goals and assists.

I dont see why Harvey couldnt do a better job of back tracking. The goal was a classic example where he leaves Trent alone with two opponents, and we have seen it before. He has a great vision for our opportunities in attack, but he seems to have zero vision for what the opponents can do when they attack.

Yeah, he just doesnt have the instincts for it, not now at least. You could guess that he might develop it, but I'm not sure it's that simple. Elliott has a lot of room for development and seems very willing to learn, but I'm not sure that part will come naturally to him at all.

But beyond simply tracking back, I'm more concerned with the lack of physical presence. Harvey works hard, presses pretty well, and will always try to make tackles. But I don't believe he'll ever win a 50/50. People keep slating Henderson on here, but even in probably his weakest season in 10 years, he still gives us a toughness in the middle that we lack when he's not there. That's borne out by the huge difference in points-per-game from when he starts vs when he doesn't.

[Knight]

The Elliot and Bacjetic thing is odd. Bajcetic has apparently saved us from buying a 6… multiple people claiming that as if it’s now an obvious reality. I hope it’s true… but it’s way, way too early to be making claims like that.

[FlashGordon]

Yeah, he just doesnt have the instincts for it, not now at least. You could guess that he might develop it, but I'm not sure it's that simple. Elliott has a lot of room for development and seems very willing to learn, but I'm not sure that part will come naturally to him at all.

But beyond simply tracking back, I'm more concerned with the lack of physical presence. Harvey works hard, presses pretty well, and will always try to make tackles. But I don't believe he'll ever win a 50/50. People keep slating Henderson on here, but even in probably his weakest season in 10 years, he still gives us a toughness in the middle that we lack when he's not there. That's borne out by the huge difference in points-per-game from when he starts vs when he doesn't.

 

Fair enough critiquing the defensive side of his game but this is just pure nonsense. He's won loads of 50/50s. Every player in the league, not matter how shite they are defensively or how limited they are physically wins 50/50s.

[jepovic]

Fair enough critiquing the defensive side of his game but this is just pure nonsense. He's won loads of 50/50s. Every player in the league, not matter how shite they are defensively or how limited they are physically wins 50/50s.

Yeah, wouldnt be a 50/50 otherwise 

[El Lobo]

True but that doesn't mean we have to start two teenage midfielders in a must-win game.

Was that the first league game they've started together in midfield?

[stewy17]

I'm of the opinion that Elliott (& Bacjetic) should, at best at the moment, be 5th or 6th choice in midfield for us.

Both of them are worthy of praise and with the right coaching and physical development they could get to a place where they're elite-level premier league/champions league footballers for Liverpool, but I think it's wild to suggest that they are now. We shouldn't be in a position where they're both starting for us in the midfield, and we shouldn't be in a position where they're both regularly starting games at all.

They're not significantly more developed than Carvalho, but he's now getting very limited time in the team because we've got 5 top lads fit who can play where he plays (in attack). That should really be where we're at with these two. Especially Bacjetic but also Elliott.

If we fail to strengthen in midfield this summer because we want to rely on both or either of them, then I reckon we're fucked.

[El Lobo]

I'm of the opinion that Elliott (& Bacjetic) should, at best at the moment, be 5th or 6th choice in midfield for us.

Both of them are worthy of praise and with the right coaching and physical development they could get to a place where they're elite-level premier league/champions league footballers for Liverpool, but I think it's wild to suggest that they are now. We shouldn't be in a position where they're both starting for us in the midfield, and we shouldn't be in a position where they're both regularly starting games at all.

They're not significantly more developed than Carvalho, but he's now getting very limited time in the team because we've got 5 top lads fit who can play where he plays (in attack). That should really be where we're at with these two. Especially Bacjetic but also Elliott.

If we fail to strengthen in midfield this summer because we want to rely on both or either of them, then I reckon we're fucked.

Thats sort of the point isn't it? They shouldn't....because we havent got anything better right now.

[Fromola]

I'm of the opinion that Elliott (& Bacjetic) should, at best at the moment, be 5th or 6th choice in midfield for us.

Both of them are worthy of praise and with the right coaching and physical development they could get to a place where they're elite-level premier league/champions league footballers for Liverpool, but I think it's wild to suggest that they are now. We shouldn't be in a position where they're both starting for us in the midfield, and we shouldn't be in a position where they're both regularly starting games at all.

They're not significantly more developed than Carvalho, but he's now getting very limited time in the team because we've got 5 top lads fit who can play where he plays (in attack). That should really be where we're at with these two. Especially Bacjetic but also Elliott.

If we fail to strengthen in midfield this summer because we want to rely on both or either of them, then I reckon we're fucked.

I remember under Kenny we ended up with Spearing and Shelvey getting a regular game in midfield with Gerrard and Lucas injured, when both were nowhere near the standard. Bajcetic and Elliott clearly have the potential (they didn't) but they can't carry a midfield to top 4 qualification. We missed Thiago and Henderson on Saturday but then if you have Fabinho/Henderson/Thiago there's also a lack of legs as we've seen all season. You can play Bajcetic or Elliott but you can't go away from home in the PL and start both in midfield.

We find it extremely difficult to find any midfield 3 combination that broadly works anymore. Individually the quality is there.

[nerdster4]

I suppose next season we ll have

Bacjetic. Havrvey (starting at times in midfield and at times wide) , and a new signing (mount/Bellingham or rice hopefully)

Thiago fab hendo

And the question will be what is the best 3?

If it’s 2 of the latter 3 , plus one , you need serious legs around them . It could be 1 of the latter 3, especially if we sign 2 new top 4 level midfielders .

[MonsLibpool]

Was that the first league game they've started together in midfield?

They started against Chelsea when we took Fab and Hendo out for a few weeks.

[RedG13]

Was that the first league game they've started together in midfield?

I think Fabinho/Bajcetic/Harvey together the first time starting was Wolves at home maybe they played together before not sure.

[Clint Eastwood]

Was nice to see him come on and fly into challenges after seeing the likes of Fabinho, Trent, Jota just sticking a leg out and getting spun all game.

He actually looks like he gives a shit, so he instantly starts the rest of our league games for me.

[RedBlakey]

Was nice to see him come on and fly into challenges after seeing the likes of Fabinho, Trent, Jota just sticking a leg out and getting spun all game.

He actually looks like he gives a shit, so he instantly starts the rest of our league games for me.

Couldn’t agree more, only one of the outfield players who actually looked like they gave a shit and played with any intensity.

[RyanBabel19]

One of our only players with a bit of nasty and fight in him

He's flying into tackles and getting in amongst it while others get brushed off the ball and just take it

[Shepnois]

Harvey was a fan first, he gets it. He’s a talented lad but he also fights for the shirt, always gives 100% respect him for that.

[tubby]

Was a breath of fresh air when he came on, was weird seeing someone passing and moving so much.

[MonsLibpool]

Tidy when he came on.

[mrantarctica]

We find it extremely difficult to find any midfield 3 combination that broadly works anymore. Individually the quality is there.

THat's because if you want peak performance, then you need players at their peak. We have players past their peak, and then some who are well before their peak, so no wonder it looks a bit meh

[Qston]

He should have started last night

[RyanBabel19]

THat's because if you want peak performance, then you need players at their peak. We have players past their peak, and then some who are well before their peak, so no wonder it looks a bit meh

Nothing to do with peak. Madrid have one of the best midfields out there and how many fall into the peak category?

Modric, Kroos both past their peaks, the young CMs haven't reached theirs. Nothing meh about their midfield. Its the quality available and how they work as a unit to a set gameplan

[mrantarctica]

Nothing to do with peak. Madrid have one of the best midfields out there and how many fall into the peak category?

Modric, Kroos both past their peaks, the young CMs haven't reached theirs. Nothing meh about their midfield. Its the quality available and how they work as a unit to a set gameplan

But you're simply talking about peak athleticism. The way I see it, the older players at RM don't rely greatly on their physical attributes and their technical attributes and understanding of the game are as good as ever. The younger players may not be at their top level yet, but they are certainly closer to it than ours. Tchouameni, Camavinga, Valverde and Ceballos are all much better players than Harvey, Bajcetic, Curtis right now.

[Fromola]

One of our only players with a bit of nasty and fight in him

He's flying into tackles and getting in amongst it while others get brushed off the ball and just take it

He's playing a bit like a young Henderson lately. Raw but he's injecting much needed energy and fight into the side.

I don't think he was the player that should have been hooked at half time at the weekend and was unlucky not to start last night.

[smurfinaus]

He's playing a bit like a young Henderson lately. Raw but he's injecting much needed energy and fight into the side.

I don't think he was the player that should have been hooked at half time at the weekend and was unlucky not to start last night.

The little guy certainly has more fight in him compared to our incumbents (Bacjectic aside). Thing is, where should we play him?. RCM in certain games?. I mean where was he played with success at Blackburn?. For a creative player we don't see the passing or output i had hoped for (yet).

[MonsLibpool]

The little guy certainly has more fight in him compared to our incumbents (Bacjectic aside). Thing is, where should we play him?. RCM in certain games?. I mean where was he played with success at Blackburn?. For a creative player we don't see the passing or output i had hoped for (yet).

He can't impose his game because he gets bullied physically.

[Fromola]

The little guy certainly has more fight in him compared to our incumbents (Bacjectic aside). Thing is, where should we play him?. RCM in certain games?. I mean where was he played with success at Blackburn?. For a creative player we don't see the passing or output i had hoped for (yet).

He's not ideal in the 3 but with Bajcetic injured I don't see who else is providing the legs in there. Jones maybe. Looks like we've give up on Keita.

[Yorkykopite]

He's not ideal in the 3 but with Bajcetic injured I don't see who else is providing the legs in there. Jones maybe. Looks like we've give up on Keita.

Keita only plays walking football since his retirement a couple of years ago.

[Judge Red]

Lad can be a player but he needs to put a tackle in. Me n the lad watched him and hes only 8 and was asking why he didn’t put one foot in all game? Thing is we puf in ox who did exactly the same.

[killer-heels]

I thought he played well.

[JackWard33]

I thought he played well.

He did - especially compared to the rest of the “midfield”

[AmanShah21]

He's tidy on the ball and puts in a shift off it even though he isn't great at winning his dues just yet. Think he has a future here and has shown enough at a very young age that he can be a very good player in midfield.

[killer-heels]

He did - especially compared to the rest of the “midfield”

Yeah maybe in the realms of midfielding he wasnt great but he was way better than Henderson and Fabinho. He even won some challenges. Henderson got turned by Palmer.

[Studgotelli]

I thought he played well.

What did he do?