Author Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread  (Read 12289699 times)

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98920 on: February 7, 2019, 08:32:47 pm »
He's been around the club since he was like 12, would only have been allowed to sign after turning 16. Dont think he had the right clearence though as he didnt appear in the site until much later from what i remember, which is what they usually wait for. But yeah no idea really whats happening. Its a bit like when we had Hodzic(?) But he didnt even make the academy page on the site.

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98921 on: February 7, 2019, 08:34:37 pm »
Yeah very strange one indeed. Maybe he's just not any good or hasn't developed enough physically.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline lamonti

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98922 on: February 8, 2019, 08:48:45 am »
Signing players with absolutely no chance of getting a work permit like Allan and that Colombian fella is an absolute waste of everyone's time.

Offline lamonti

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98923 on: February 8, 2019, 08:54:36 am »
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/feb/07/bundesliga-michael-zorc-borussia-dortmund-jadon-sancho

Feels pertinent to the discussion regarding English academies and lack of chances for players a few pages back.

Taking Sancho and City's academy obviously doesn't paint the full picture, but it's clear that since Borrell and latterly Inglethorpe, the quality of player we have start producing has risen, even if the opportunities for them in their own club are getting fewer and fewer.

Quote from: Michael Zorc
"But, in the meantime we have the feeling that, yes, the education and development of youth players in the English academies is quite good, to be honest. The teams don’t only spend much money on transfers or salaries but also on infrastructure. When you see these youth academies – for example Man City – you can’t compare it with the German standard. It’s much higher, much higher.”

Offline HopefulRed

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98924 on: February 8, 2019, 02:58:06 pm »
Interesting that our U23s playing v Burnley right now in the Premier League 2 Cup are facing Anthony Glennon (Bunley’s captain) and Marley Blair, both once of Lfc academy although Marley wasn’t with us for long.  No updates anywhere that I can see

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98925 on: February 8, 2019, 03:59:41 pm »
Interesting that our U23s playing v Burnley right now in the Premier League 2 Cup are facing Anthony Glennon (Bunley’s captain) and Marley Blair, both once of Lfc academy although Marley wasn’t with us for long.  No updates anywhere that I can see

Ended 0-0 which doesn’t help us as we remain on the bottom our our table. 

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98926 on: February 8, 2019, 05:30:59 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/feb/07/bundesliga-michael-zorc-borussia-dortmund-jadon-sancho

Feels pertinent to the discussion regarding English academies and lack of chances for players a few pages back.

Taking Sancho and City's academy obviously doesn't paint the full picture, but it's clear that since Borrell and latterly Inglethorpe, the quality of player we have start producing has risen, even if the opportunities for them in their own club are getting fewer and fewer.

I think this is the general issue. The standard of coaching at youth level has been improving, especially with regard to the technical aspects of the game. The problem is, many of these young lads are getting to the age of 18/19 and then finding no place in the first team squad. From there, most of them tend to stagnate at a crucial stage in their development.

I think the more we see the likes of Sancho, Lookman and so on getting first team football in the Bundesliga, the better it will be for the England team.

But personally I couldn't give a fuck about the England team, I care about the Liverpool team. Is there a way to make sure that more youngsters make it through into the Liverpool first team? For me, it's to take the gamble and throw them in.

Offline blacksun

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98927 on: February 8, 2019, 06:58:45 pm »
I think this is the general issue. The standard of coaching at youth level has been improving, especially with regard to the technical aspects of the game. The problem is, many of these young lads are getting to the age of 18/19 and then finding no place in the first team squad. From there, most of them tend to stagnate at a crucial stage in their development.

I think the more we see the likes of Sancho, Lookman and so on getting first team football in the Bundesliga, the better it will be for the England team.

But personally I couldn't give a fuck about the England team, I care about the Liverpool team. Is there a way to make sure that more youngsters make it through into the Liverpool first team? For me, it's to take the gamble and throw them in.

I have always wondered why the FA don't change the rules so you can have any number of say U21 academy players on the bench in PL games. They changed it from five to seven subs thinking that would help but it just meant clubs could put more of the squad players on the bench but if you could name lets say 1 GK and 5 outfield subs and then any number of the U21 academy players (ie players who had spent 2 years in our youth system) on the bench you may find games where top teams are 3/4/5 goals up and coaches like Klopp might throw a Camacho or Wilson on for 10 or 15 mins knowing there's almost no risk

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98928 on: February 8, 2019, 07:11:09 pm »
I have always wondered why the FA don't change the rules so you can have any number of say U21 academy players on the bench in PL games. They changed it from five to seven subs thinking that would help but it just meant clubs could put more of the squad players on the bench but if you could name lets say 1 GK and 5 outfield subs and then any number of the U21 academy players (ie players who had spent 2 years in our youth system) on the bench you may find games where top teams are 3/4/5 goals up and coaches like Klopp might throw a Camacho or Wilson on for 10 or 15 mins knowing there's almost no risk
The premier league needs to agree to it, fa cant just change the homegrown rules.

Offline blacksun

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98929 on: February 8, 2019, 07:12:52 pm »
The premier league needs to agree to it, fa cant just change the homegrown rules.

True but why wouldn't they? It wouldn't do anything to harm the game from their perspective

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98930 on: February 8, 2019, 07:36:05 pm »
True but why wouldn't they? It wouldn't do anything to harm the game from their perspective
Being really cynical, the PL might regard Mahrez coming on at 3-0 with 15 to play as more marketable than Foden (for example).

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98931 on: February 8, 2019, 07:39:20 pm »
I have always wondered why the FA don't change the rules so you can have any number of say U21 academy players on the bench in PL games. They changed it from five to seven subs thinking that would help but it just meant clubs could put more of the squad players on the bench but if you could name lets say 1 GK and 5 outfield subs and then any number of the U21 academy players (ie players who had spent 2 years in our youth system) on the bench you may find games where top teams are 3/4/5 goals up and coaches like Klopp might throw a Camacho or Wilson on for 10 or 15 mins knowing there's almost no risk

So, like 25 subs on the bench?
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Offline blacksun

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98932 on: February 8, 2019, 08:16:45 pm »
So, like 25 subs on the bench?

Come on POP you're better than that, there's no way Klopp thinks 20 of his academy players are ready for PL football but maybe 4/5 are worth a look and having those players available for the situation I suggested may allow one or two to get 10-15 mins now and again to let the coaches see how they fair against PL players

Don't Serie A do something like this?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98933 on: February 8, 2019, 08:45:37 pm »
Come on POP you're better than that, there's no way Klopp thinks 20 of his academy players are ready for PL football but maybe 4/5 are worth a look and having those players available for the situation I suggested may allow one or two to get 10-15 mins now and again to let the coaches see how they fair against PL players

Don't Serie A do something like this?

I was intrigued by the "any number" part ;D

Quote
I have always wondered why the FA don't change the rules so you can have any number of say U21 academy players on the bench in PL games

I don't think there's a need to do that. Nobody is being held back. If they look the part, they'll get their chance. If they're not getting their chance, then they aren't looking the part. Unfortunately, it needs 15 or so players to exist in order to create a team around the one player who has a chance to make it.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98934 on: February 8, 2019, 08:58:02 pm »
Nobody is being held back. If they look the part, they'll get their chance. If they're not getting their chance, then they aren't looking the part.
I'd  disagree there. Young players at top six clubs definitely aren't getting enough opportunities to play league game, in my humble opinion anyways.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98935 on: February 8, 2019, 09:16:14 pm »
I'd  disagree there. Young players at top six clubs definitely aren't getting enough opportunities to play league game, in my humble opinion anyways.

If they were good enough, they'd start. Every club would prefer to have cut-price youth doing what Hazard, Sterling, Salah, Alli, Martial etc., do. It saves on transfer fees and wages. But most players don't make it to that level of ability, because they don't have that level of ability. It's rare - but not unheard of, obviously - for an academy, home-grown player to slip through the net for a top 6 club. Even if they're not producing right away, they'll show enough to the scouts and first team coaches to say "this lad has it, let's keep him". But most academy players don't have that for senior level play.

Top players will always get a chance.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98936 on: February 8, 2019, 09:25:10 pm »
The thing is though, 17/18 yead old sterling also wouldnt have been good enough to start over any of those. He got his chance because his competition was borini/downing/suso/enrique

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98937 on: February 9, 2019, 05:03:02 am »
The thing is though, 17/18 yead old sterling also wouldnt have been good enough to start over any of those. He got his chance because his competition was borini/downing/suso/enrique

It was actually Kuyt he first replaced, under Kenny. Kenny saw something in him, and Rodgers did too.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98938 on: February 9, 2019, 10:09:21 am »
He played less than 30 minutes under kenny, if that's the chances they're going to get they're wasting there time here.


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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98939 on: February 9, 2019, 11:22:28 am »
He played less than 30 minutes under kenny, if that's the chances they're going to get they're wasting there time here.

You're not getting it. He played from the second league game under Rodgers, and hasn't looked back since. Players may not suit a given managers tactical plans, but there are no Messi's currently languishing in the under 23s. If they're good enough, they'll get a chance. If they're outstanding, they'll become starters.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98940 on: February 9, 2019, 12:00:04 pm »
Again, he got that chance because our other options were not good enough. Once we upgraded he went to the bench for pretty much the entire 2nd part of that season. Who would we be dropping to give a 17/18 year old Sterling 2000 senior minutes this season? I don't think Sturridge has that with us over the last 3 seasons.

Who would sancho have replaced at city this season to get 1500+ minutes? They cant even get foden on the pitch for more than token minutes with de bruyne injured most the season.

A few 100 minutes spread over a season isnt enough for them to develop or cement a place.

U18s 1-0 up away at United through an own goal. Npt been a great match with the wind not helping


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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98941 on: February 9, 2019, 12:13:45 pm »
Again, he got that chance because our other options were not good enough. Once we upgraded he went to the bench for pretty much the entire 2nd part of that season. Who would we be dropping to give a 17/18 year old Sterling 2000 senior minutes this season? I don't think Sturridge has that with us over the last 3 seasons.

Who would sancho have replaced at city this season to get 1500+ minutes? They cant even get foden on the pitch for more than token minutes with de bruyne injured most the season.

A few 100 minutes spread over a season isnt enough for them to develop or cement a place.

U18s 1-0 up away at United through an own goal. Npt been a great match with the wind not helping

So what happened in 13/14, then? Those upgrades were still there.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98942 on: February 9, 2019, 12:24:48 pm »
ANOTHER sending off against Utd. For the 6th time in a row!

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98943 on: February 9, 2019, 12:47:57 pm »
Utd down to 10 as well now.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98944 on: February 9, 2019, 12:58:52 pm »
Ended 1-1. Probably about right.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98945 on: February 9, 2019, 01:02:17 pm »
So what happened in 13/14, then? Those upgrades were still there.
Sterling had 2000+ minutes of development and was seen by Rodgers as a better 4th attacker than Aspas, alberto or moses. He still didnt replace or take minutes off the better players. Same way he wouldn't now here or at city if he was trying to make his initial breakthrough.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98946 on: February 9, 2019, 11:39:50 pm »
So what happened in 13/14, then? Those upgrades were still there.
Sterling had 2000+ minutes of development and was seen by Rodgers as a better 4th attacker than Aspas, alberto or moses. He still didnt replace or take minutes off the better players. Same way he wouldn't now here or at city if he was trying to make his initial breakthrough.
For the first half of the 2012/13 season, we mainly used a front three of Sterling, Suso and Suarez, with only Borini and Assaidi as competition for them. We'd fucked about with Andy Carroll all summer and ended up loaning him out without a replacement - options were very limited.

Sterling made 24 league appearances during that season, 34 in all comps. This was the platform for him to kick on and be a major contributor during the 13/14 season.

Sterling 100% would not have been getting that sort of game time for this current Liverpool team.

How many minutes would Trent have played last season if Clyne hadn't been injured? Not as many as he did, I suspect. Even Michael Owen was freakishly good at youth level and surely as obvious a top grade talent as you'll ever see around the age of 16 or 17, but he wouldn't have played as many games during his breakthrough season in 97/98 if it hadn't been for Fowler's injuries.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98947 on: February 10, 2019, 09:21:31 am »
Life uh....finds a way. For the big, big talents they’ll always get their chances.

It’s easy to say Sterling got his breakthrough because the competition was shite. But he was a standout youngster, and clearly there was a route to the first team for him. As there was with Owen. If Sterling was 4/5 years younger, who’s to say we might not have signed Mane or Salah in the first place? If memory serves with Owen, we’d just binned off Collymore and our only other strikers where God and an aging Riedle. So yeah, he might not have played as much but he was still very likely to be first choice.

I’d like to think our manager actually pays attention to the youth teams and if there’s a big talent coming through he plans how that’ll impact the players we sign in that position.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98948 on: February 10, 2019, 10:59:17 am »
Life uh....finds a way. For the big, big talents they’ll always get their chances.
It's just not true mate.

Is Joel Matip better than Conor Coady?

(Like the Jurassic Park ref tho)

Offline HopefulRed

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98949 on: February 10, 2019, 12:14:31 pm »
Like winning and losing, there is a good deal of luck about it.  Yes Trent was obviously good but Clyne’s Injury gave him gems, along with Klopp’s patience to allow him to make a few mistakes.  The few mistakes is very risky for a top 6 club. 

You only have to look at Salah at Chelsea, and all the others released by top 6 Academies who go on to have a good career, even if perhaps not a ridiculously good career to know that different players mature at different rates and just because they take the route of going off on many loans, doesn’t mean they can’t be great.  Harry Kane is an example.  I thought he was very average in the Enland U21 team, and being picked for far to long for that age group when other good players were coming through. 

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98950 on: February 10, 2019, 12:31:17 pm »
It's just not true mate.

Is Joel Matip better than Conor Coady?

(Like the Jurassic Park ref tho)

Why would you compare two players that were never on the same team when trying to make your point?  It doesn't make any sense especially when Coady was a midfielder when he was with Liverpool. 

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98951 on: February 10, 2019, 01:00:56 pm »
It's just not true mate.

Is Joel Matip better than Conor Coady?

(Like the Jurassic Park ref tho)

I’d say so yeah, not sure how that’s relevant though. Coady certainly wasn’t, and isn’t, this generational talent like Owen or Sterling. He was a good young player who, like a few others, it’d probably have been nice to keep around for squad cover and to fill a quota.

I can count on one hand the amount of players we’ve had in my lifetime who we didn’t give the chance they deserved who then went on to tear it up elsewhere. And the hand I’m using is just a nub and has no fingers.

If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98952 on: February 10, 2019, 07:04:34 pm »
I’d say so yeah, not sure how that’s relevant though. Coady certainly wasn’t, and isn’t, this generational talent like Owen or Sterling. He was a good young player who, like a few others, it’d probably have been nice to keep around for squad cover and to fill a quota.

I can count on one hand the amount of players we’ve had in my lifetime who we didn’t give the chance they deserved who then went on to tear it up elsewhere. And the hand I’m using is just a nub and has no fingers.


Yeah, fair play, but my argument is that the players aren't going on to tear it up anywhere because they're missing vitals years of their early careers playing U23 football.

The margin between success and failure in football is so small.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98953 on: February 11, 2019, 01:50:00 am »
Yeah, fair play, but my argument is that the players aren't going on to tear it up anywhere because they're missing vitals years of their early careers playing U23 football.

The margin between success and failure in football is so small.

Do you have any actual examples to back up any of what you're saying?  I can't think of a team in the world that wouldn't prefer all of their players to be homegrown for the numerous reasons already mentioned.  Being able to know what a 16 or 18 year old is going to develop into at 21 or 23 isn't an exact science to say the least.   If a club thinks the player is going to develop into a player good enough for the first team then they're going to eventually get that chance.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98954 on: February 11, 2019, 02:50:52 am »
Like winning and losing, there is a good deal of luck about it.  Yes Trent was obviously good but Clyne’s Injury gave him gems, along with Klopp’s patience to allow him to make a few mistakes.  The few mistakes is very risky for a top 6 club. 

You only have to look at Salah at Chelsea, and all the others released by top 6 Academies who go on to have a good career, even if perhaps not a ridiculously good career to know that different players mature at different rates and just because they take the route of going off on many loans, doesn’t mean they can’t be great.  Harry Kane is an example.  I thought he was very average in the Enland U21 team, and being picked for far to long for that age group when other good players were coming through.

Salah wasn't an academy player at Chelsea though.


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Offline lamonti

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98955 on: February 11, 2019, 07:28:53 am »
If they were good enough, they'd start. Every club would prefer to have cut-price youth doing what Hazard, Sterling, Salah, Alli, Martial etc., do. It saves on transfer fees and wages. But most players don't make it to that level of ability, because they don't have that level of ability. It's rare - but not unheard of, obviously - for an academy, home-grown player to slip through the net for a top 6 club. Even if they're not producing right away, they'll show enough to the scouts and first team coaches to say "this lad has it, let's keep him". But most academy players don't have that for senior level play.

Top players will always get a chance.

The absolute elite – the Sanchos and Sterlings – will get a chance, because most coach's/DoF's judgement is good enough recognise that kind of talent is so special. It's those below that level who likely to have the appetite and skill to step up given an opportunity, but those chances are fewer and fewer.

Think of how many transfers go wrong (Paul Tomkins estimates ~50%, right?) and how many players at PL clubs are bought from foreign markets using limited information. Like, what is Lichtsteiner giving Arsenal that Maitland-Niles isn't giving them?

If PL teams want to produce anything more than 1 player every couple of years, they're going to have to make a greater effort to rely on the lower level of player I mentioned. Then again, perhaps that isn't what they want, because they all have more short-term focuses, which need to be taken into account also.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98956 on: February 11, 2019, 07:44:20 am »
The absolute elite – the Sanchos and Sterlings – will get a chance, because most coach's/DoF's judgement is good enough recognise that kind of talent is so special. It's those below that level who likely to have the appetite and skill to step up given an opportunity, but those chances are fewer and fewer.

Think of how many transfers go wrong (Paul Tomkins estimates ~50%, right?) and how many players at PL clubs are bought from foreign markets using limited information. Like, what is Lichtsteiner giving Arsenal that Maitland-Niles isn't giving them?

If PL teams want to produce anything more than 1 player every couple of years, they're going to have to make a greater effort to rely on the lower level of player I mentioned. Then again, perhaps that isn't what they want, because they all have more short-term focuses, which need to be taken into account also.

At a top club, those sub-elite players won't win you games. They are there to "subsidise" the career of that one elite talent who WILL make it into first team football at a big club. That's the ugly truth of youth and elite development
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98957 on: February 11, 2019, 08:34:28 am »
The absolute elite – the Sanchos and Sterlings – will get a chance, because most coach's/DoF's judgement is good enough recognise that kind of talent is so special. It's those below that level who likely to have the appetite and skill to step up given an opportunity, but those chances are fewer and fewer.

Think of how many transfers go wrong (Paul Tomkins estimates ~50%, right?) and how many players at PL clubs are bought from foreign markets using limited information. Like, what is Lichtsteiner giving Arsenal that Maitland-Niles isn't giving them?

If PL teams want to produce anything more than 1 player every couple of years, they're going to have to make a greater effort to rely on the lower level of player I mentioned. Then again, perhaps that isn't what they want, because they all have more short-term focuses, which need to be taken into account also.
But sancho wasnt going to get enough of a chance at city, so forced a transfer to a team with a really good rep for developing young players.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98958 on: February 11, 2019, 08:38:55 am »
But sancho wasnt going to get enough of a chance at city, so forced a transfer to a team with a really good rep for developing young players.

Says who?
Better looking than Samie.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #98959 on: February 11, 2019, 08:52:47 am »
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/transfers/arsenal-transfer-news-latest-tottenham-circle-city-jadon-sancho-break-down-a7851981.html


https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/jadon-sancho-england-squad-international-nations-league-spain-croatia-a8576546.html?amp


https://www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11095/11553612/jadon-sancho-explains-his-rise-to-borussia-dortmund-from-kennington-estate


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46185982


Quote
If English clubs are not giving you a chance then abroad is always an option," said winger Sancho. "They're always open to just seeing your ability and, hopefully, if you're good enough then you get your chance. That's how I felt.

Guardiola admitting he cant/doesnt give them the game time they need/needed

https://www.goal.com/en-gh/amp/news/guardiola-calls-for-second-league-as-brahim-diaz-follows/1o8qf5k2h6say1t3sfvehwz3if

And considering the lack of minutes given to their other elite talents in that age group sancho was right to do that
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 09:02:48 am by Chris~ »