Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1447132 times)

Online naka

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So let me get this right
May is going to try again with a proposal that has already been rejected by massive majorities each time but she refuses to have a people’s vote, now that we know the real consequences!
How to fk is this democracy and how can they justify it!.

Online jepovic

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I think we'll stick with the traditions. The politicians need them more now than ever. It's their way of keeping us focussed on the past. They want this because we haven't got a future and it's their fault.
Maybe we're seeing the beginning of a new tradition: The weekly parliament vote on May's deal.

May's strategy seems to be to delay and delay again, until there's a majority for her deal - which will never happen. She can literally delay Brexit forever and claim that she has delivered.

Offline Red_Mist

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So let me get this right
May is going to try again with a proposal that has already been rejected by massive majorities each time but she refuses to have a people’s vote, now that we know the real consequences!
How to fk is this democracy and how can they justify it!.
I presume she’s hoping the Brexiteers/ERG will reluctantly get on board at the last minute to avoid a delay? Still not sure she’d have the numbers, but she must think/hope something otherwise what’s the point?

Offline killer-heels

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Maybe we're seeing the beginning of a new tradition: The weekly parliament vote on May's deal.

May's strategy seems to be to delay and delay again, until there's a majority for her deal - which will never happen. She can literally delay Brexit forever and claim that she has delivered.

She has got two more attempts at it. Not sure why she is doing it for a third time next week, it should be after the summit when the EU and Britain have a discussion over next steps.

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There could be another Vote of No Confidence, and everything that ensues thereafter. And another after that, and so on.

We've seen how de rigueur it is to change your votes these days. Hell, the cool kids vote against the very poposal they just commended to the House two minutes previously, while the Corbyn kids come out to praise a course of action they just whipped to abstain from voting for.

I'll honestly be gobsmacked if there are ever enough votes, even in this parliament, to defeat the government in a No Confidence motion.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Wetherspoon's profits plunge by 19%

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47581483


Offline Broad Spectrum

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Wetherspoon's profits plunge by 19%

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47581483

Only thing that's made me smile this morning.

Offline paulrazor

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Wetherspoon's profits plunge by 19%

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47581483


jesus even the owner looks like the type of waster who is there religiously drinking at 10.20am because he has nothing better to do
yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR

Offline killer-heels

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He blamed that on negativity.

Offline filopastry

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Offline So… Howard Philips

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jesus even the owner looks like the type of waster who is there religiously drinking at 10.20am because he has nothing better to do

I would avoid like the plague any pub where;

"Mr Martin is currently touring 100 of his 900 pubs, talking to punters about the merits of leaving the EU without a deal on 29 March.

This, he said, would have "adverse economic consequences. He blamed "the establishment" for a "barrage of negative economic forecasts".

Never mind the establishment you fuckwit your pisshead clients are swerving your pubs because they want to avoid you.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Quote
Labour will back a second referendum "if it's the only way to stop a no deal or a bad deal" says Labour's @BarryGardiner #r4today

https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/1106455948544086016

If Labour securing agreement in the Commons for an alternative Brexit deal is still the current step in their policy, before they'll supposedly back a 2nd referendum, then what is their plan/strategy for getting such agreement?

They could have laid down their 5 point customs union-based plan as an amendment yesterday but chose not to, using the excuse that the focus of yesterday should simply have been on an extension to Article 50. Are they going to table such an amendment to the next meaningful vote?

If they don't, or if they do and it's defeated, then what is their view on the length and purpose of an extension? From what McDonnell has said previously, Labour seem to favour a short extension but if the policy is to keep the option of a 2nd referendum on the table, then it follows logically that Labour has to advocate for a longer one to give us the time to enact referendum legislation.

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Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline So… Howard Philips

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in 20 years finding a corbyn supporter will be as easy as finding somebody today who supported the Iraq war

I don't think there were that many who supported the Iraq war. There certainly wasn't an organisation set up specifically to promote the war or cultists who raved on about the benefits of taking Mosul - except for a few George Dubya neo cons of course.

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https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/1106455948544086016

If Labour securing agreement in the Commons for an alternative Brexit deal is still the current step in their policy, before they'll supposedly back a 2nd referendum, then what is their plan/strategy for getting such agreement?

They could have laid down their 5 point customs union-based plan as an amendment yesterday but chose not to, using the excuse that the focus of yesterday should simply have been on an extension to Article 50. Are they going to table such an amendment to the next meaningful vote?

If they don't, or if they do and it's defeated, then what is their view on the length and purpose of an extension? From what McDonnell has said previously, Labour seem to favour a short extension but if the policy is to keep the option of a 2nd referendum on the table, then it follows logically that Labour has to advocate for a longer one to give us the time to enact referendum legislation.
They are taking the P.. , they don't deserve our attention as it's the same old Bul.. day after day,
Emily Maitlis response sums up Labours credibility right now.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2019/mar/13/has-emily-maitlis-captured-the-mood-of-the-nation-brexit-eyeroll-video
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline S.Red please

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How can any of these MPs who end up switching and voting for May's deal to avoid an extension justify that? What exactly did they think was going to happen voting her deal down twice in the first place other than an extension?
Justice for the 97

Offline ShakaHislop

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EU will agree to extra time if there is a second Brexit referendum

Spoiler
The European Union is poised to tell Theresa May that she must hold a second referendum or soften Brexit in return for them granting a lengthy delay to Britain’s departure date.

The Times understands that the prime minister has been told by senior EU officials and other European leaders that conditions for an extension to the Article 50 exit process would include the option of a second vote on EU membership.

Mrs May is expected to ask a summit of EU leaders next week for a delay to Brexit. Unless the House of Commons has ratified the withdrawal agreement by then momentum is growing across the EU for a lengthy postponement to give Britain a “long reflection period”.

Donald Tusk, president of the European council, who will chair next Thursday’s talks between EU leaders, is pushing for a long extension so that Britain can either reverse or soften Brexit. “During my consultations ahead of the European council, I will appeal to the EU 27 to be open to a long extension if the UK finds it necessary to rethink its Brexit strategy and build consensus around it,” he said.

Mr Tusk is a strong supporter of a second referendum and he will tell EU leaders that there is opportunity during an extension of at least a year for Britain’s political course to be changed.

Simon Coveney, the Irish foreign minister, said yesterday that Britain needed a “long reflection period” lasting “21 months, to the end of 2020, or whatever the period would be”.

He added: “We’re essentially looking for, we will look for, a much longer extension to allow Britain to rethink its approach to Brexit.”

His choice of words is highly significant because the term “period of reflection” was used after Ireland voted against the EU’s Lisbon treaty in 2008 to build pressure for a second referendum, which was held to reverse it just over a year later. It was also used after the French and Dutch referendums, reheating the EU’s constitutional treaty in 2005 before in effect reversing the result with the almost identical Lisbon treaty two years later.

Mrs May has been told of the conditions in private talks over recent days with other European leaders and senior EU figures, including
Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president.

The EU will insist that any extension must be used to decide between the options of a second referendum, cancelling Brexit or dropping the government’s red lines on exiting the single market and customs union.

Mr Tusk lamented last month that the chance of a second referendum had receded, and other EU officials now regard another referendum as a possibility after the government’s massive defeat on Tuesday.

Both the Council of the EU, which represents governments, and the commission have written off the withdrawal agreement while the government pursues the same Brexit strategy.

The conditions are highly unlikely to be publicly set out in any agreement on a delay to Brexit. However, there will be strings attached to a delay that will be billed as a more neutral “period of reflection” that, as Mr Coveney put it, would “allow Britain to rethink Brexit”.

One diplomat said: “It will be space for Britain to reflect. It will not be the EU ordering a second referendum. That will not work, it has to be a British choice.”

Despite the prospect of a long extension, Britain could leave the European Union within months, senior government sources have said. The prime minister is trying to force MPs to choose between her deal and a “long” extension, which could last up to two years. If MPs passed a revised Brexit deal during the extension period in the coming months with the consent of Brussels it may be possible to leave early.

“There are lots of ifs and buts and everything would have to be agreed but it could be possible to leave before the agreed revised exit date,” a source said.

Further building the case for a long extension, Eleanor Sharpston, QC, the UK advocate-general at the European Court of Justice, has set out the case for not holding European elections in Britain on May 23.

Ms Sharpston, 64, said that there was a legal basis for Britain to appoint MEPs based on the composition of the Commons, without holding elections for a temporary period, as Croatia did when it joined the EU in 2013 towards the end of a parliamentary term.

Other options, she said, could be keeping the existing terms of MEPs, among whose number is Nigel Frottage, or even sending MPs from Westminster as in the old European Economic Community parliamentary assembly before direct elections to the EU parliament in 1979.

“If the political will to agree a longer Article 50 treaty on European Union extension is there, a legal mechanism can be found to accommodate that desire and ‘deal with’ the issue of the European parliament elections,” Ms Sharpston said on Twitter.

Most of those on the EU side think that British elections to the European parliament could not be delayed by more than two months beyond the assembly’s first sitting in July, with polls being held in time for the process to choose a successor to Mr Juncker in October.

Germany is most open to a delay and France is the most resistant unless Britain agrees to certain strings being attached.

What happens next?

March 18/19Third “meaningful vote” on whether or not MPs back Theresa May’s Brexit deal

March 20 If MPs approve Mrs May’s deal by this date, the government said that there could be a short delay until June 30

March 21-22 Summit of EU leaders

Week starting March 25 Possible extension votes

March 29 Day that Britain is still in law supposed to leave the EU if nothing else has been agreed

May 23 European parliament elections begin
[close]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eu-will-agree-to-extra-time-if-there-is-a-second-brexit-referendum-z6td8nvd7

Offline Iska

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Oh I like that.  Britain ends up staying in the EU, and the EU gets the blame.  Something for everyone there.

Offline BobOnATank

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Excellent trolling of frottage in the European Parliament :)

https://mobile.twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1106568413747601409



Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


Offline Machae

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She has got two more attempts at it. Not sure why she is doing it for a third time next week, it should be after the summit when the EU and Britain have a discussion over next steps.

Fair play, if she manages to push her deal at the 3rd or 4th attempt, then she's the one who's 'played a blinder'

Offline filopastry

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I actually think there is a fair chance she might eventually get it through

Offline ShakaHislop

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I actually think there is a fair chance she might eventually get it through

Her doing so would be the real mockery of democracy, not remaining in the EU as many caim it would be. Everyone would know that Parliament has waved through something of huge importance that it honestly doesn't agree with.

I would have liked Bercow to intervene but I worry the "you can't vote twice on the same thing" argument could be twisted to argue against further votes on another referendum after last night's fiasco.

Apart from Bercow, there's little to no options that I can see that can be used to stop May. Even if something like the Bryant amendment passes, it's not legally-binding so she could just ignore it I think.

Offline Red_Mist

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Offline BOBSCOUSE

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Fair play, if she manages to push her deal at the 3rd or 4th attempt, then she's the one who's 'played a blinder'

Hoping to get through on away goals, would indeed be playing a blinder.
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Offline west_london_red

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I actually think there is a fair chance she might eventually get it through

I can’t see it happening, the numbers are so tight between the Tories and DUP vs Opposition that if only a few Tories hold out it won’t go through unless a good number of Labour MPs decide to vote for it.
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Offline BobOnATank

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Seems like ignoring democracy isn't an issue for May when it comes to getting her deal done https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/15/ministers-dup-democratic-unionist-party-talks-brexit-deal-support. The british government simply can never be seen as an honest broker in the GFA while holding these closed door negotiations with one party.

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Seems like ignoring democracy isn't an issue for May when it comes to getting her deal done https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/15/ministers-dup-democratic-unionist-party-talks-brexit-deal-support. The british government simply can never be seen as an honest broker in the GFA while holding these closed door negotiations with one party.

Wonder how many billions the DUP will ring out of the Tories for their support this time

Offline Zeb

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DUP will pocket the cash and then vote precisely as they intended to do anyway. Their calculation only shifts once May's 'deal' is no longer possible, doesn't it?

Still think May's 'deal' will pass but, reading through some of the leaks from EU discussions in Brussels tonight, it's very possible that we'll spend the bulk of an extension period with a lot of her party trying to derail the legislation she needs and at least some of the opposition demanding revocation.

---

edit: Chris Grey's a good read on events, as ever.

Quote
No doubt it will be quickly forgotten, but the Damian Green amendment to Wednesday’s no-deal vote based on that latter fantasy got the support of 164 MPs including at least four cabinet ministers. Reflect on that for a moment: something literally impossible was voted for by about a quarter of the House of Commons, by no means all of them Brexiters.

Quote
At all events, as the dust of this week settles two things are clear. There will be an application for extension of Article 50 and we do indeed now face the third meaningful vote (MV3) early next week (as trailed in my previous post at the end of last week).

As regards extension, the admission that Brexit will not happen on 29 March (unless the EU-27 decide it will), even though every informed person has realised this for weeks now, is a big ‘political-psychological’ moment given May’s dogmatic, repetitive insistence that that was ‘the date’. But it will not have a huge impact if MV3 passes and she gets (as she surely would) a brief ‘technical extension’.

So what of MV3? Like PV campaigners, the ERG face a tactical dilemma, though of a different sort: back the deal or perhaps lose Brexit.  They may already have made the wrong call by not backing May in MV2. That was my immediate sense after Tuesday’s vote, if only because it may galvanize Tory ‘pragmatists’ to take the gloves off as some threatened. In other words, it may be that more ‘pragmatists’ vote against MV3 than did against MV2, having finally tired of showing the party loyalty that the Ultras disdain. In any case, with party discipline in free fall all round, those pragmatists may realise this is their last chance to avoid the disaster of Brexit and grab it.

There is a general expectation of the ERG softening, but amongst the real hard core there is already evidence of a determination to dig in (the piece linked to, by their researcher, was, be it noted, tweeted by Steve Baker who is an influential member of the group). Some will undoubtedly do so. Ironically remainers’ best hope now is that large numbers of the ERG prove to be fanatical dogmatists, which isn’t an entirely unrealistic hope to have. That number, along of course with how the DUP and Labour Brexiters vote, will determine what happens. It looks like being very close this time.

If it squeaks through, despite being something that nobody really wants, it will set up years of acrimony, slow-burn economic decline and rumbling political crisis. If it is defeated again, all bets are off (including, if it is only narrowly defeated, the tear-your-hair-out possibility of MV4). Very likely that will bring a long extension and if so then at that point the loss of the 29 March ‘independence day’ will become a huge development.

My childhood perpetual motion machine was a rickety Heath-Robinson structure, consisting of a complex interplay of pulleys, strings, cog wheels and axles. Built on a flawed premise, it was doomed to failure. The politics of Brexit has a similar crazy array of moving parts and suffers from a similar basic flaw.

You can’t turn lies into policy.

http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/03/this-is-what-politics-based-on-lies.html
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 07:35:22 pm by Zeb »
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Offline ShakaHislop

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DUP will pocket the cash and then vote precisely as they intended to do anyway. Their calculation only shifts once May's 'deal' is no longer possible, doesn't it?

Still think May's 'deal' will pass but, reading through some of the leaks from EU discussions in Brussels tonight, it's very possible that we'll spend the bulk of an extension period with a lot of her party trying to derail the legislation she needs and at least some of the opposition demanding revocation.

---

edit: Chris Grey's a good read on events, as ever.

http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/03/this-is-what-politics-based-on-lies.html

Quote
So what of MV3? Like PV campaigners, the ERG face a tactical dilemma, though of a different sort: back the deal or perhaps lose Brexit.  They may already have made the wrong call by not backing May in MV2. That was my immediate sense after Tuesday’s vote, if only because it may galvanize Tory ‘pragmatists’ to take the gloves off as some threatened. In other words, it may be that more ‘pragmatists’ vote against MV3 than did against MV2, having finally tired of showing the party loyalty that the Ultras disdain. In any case, with party discipline in free fall all round, those pragmatists may realise this is their last chance to avoid the disaster of Brexit and grab it.

How likely do you think this is? Even if they just abstained, rather than voted against, it would be something.

I also think the Woolaston amendment getting shot down yesterday may turn out be a blessing in disguise. It might have lessed the nerves of some twitchy Brexiteeers and make them complacent enough to reject the deal again.

Offline cowtownred

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Wonder how many billions the DUP will ring out of the Tories for their support this time

Never saw the last money did we?  Oh wait, Ian Paisley spent it all.

Offline Zeb

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How likely do you think this is? Even if they just abstained, rather than voted against, it would be something.

I also think the Woolaston amendment getting shot down yesterday may turn out be a blessing in disguise. It might have lessed the nerves of some twitchy Brexiteeers and make them complacent enough to reject the deal again.

Can see it for MV3 - knowing MV4 will follow after indicative votes - but would seem overly hopeful to think they would coalesce around any single outcome during indicative voting?
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Offline ShakaHislop

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EXCL Nigel Dodds warns Theresa May: We will never waver on our Brexit red lines

Quote
In an interview with The House magazine, the deputy DUP leader said protecting the United Kingdom’s constitutional integrity “remains sacrosanct and above everything else”.

While Mr Dodds said the DUP are in the business of “wanting to get a deal done”, he warned that the party is well versed in negotiations and would not succumb to pressure from outside forces.

He also savaged the Prime Minister's negotiating strategy, branding the decision to trigger Article 50 before having a clear strategy in place a “major mistake”.

The DUP once again voted against the Withdrawal Agreement this week after Geoffrey Cox, the Attorney General, admitted the deal could still see the UK kept in the Irish backstop indefinitely against its will.

Quote
Mr Dodds said his party would consider “very, very carefully” any updates to Mr Cox’s legal advice, but insisted the party would stick to its objective of ensuring Northern Ireland is treated the same as the rest of the UK post-Brexit.

“Our message is that we have set out very clear objectives, we haven’t changed in those objectives and we won’t be changing them because of any kind of deadline. The Government is well aware of that,” he told The House.

“Our primary objective is to ensure that there is – and we’ve said it before, it’s our one red line – that Northern Ireland is not separated off and treated differently in fundamental areas like customs and the single market with the rest of the United Kingdom.

“We have never wavered in that and we will not waver in that red line… that issue of the United Kingdom’s constitutional integrity is of such importance to us that it remains sacrosanct and above everything else.

"We have been talking to the Government about that and we wait to see what happens.”

When asked if he felt pressure to come to a view on Brexit, he replied: “Yes, I’m very conscious of the pressure. Of course, within the Westminster bubble, you feel that pressure very intensely.

“The DUP MPs have long experience of that kind of pressure and are very connected to their constituents and their constituencies back home. So, we have learnt over many years of experiences of how to balance that.

“But we are conscious of our wider responsibilities to the nation. But we believe that that is complementary to our responsibilities to Northern Ireland.

“So, we are in the business of wanting to get a deal done. We were very much behind Geoffrey Cox’s efforts – and the Prime Minister’s efforts – to get the necessary changes.

“We were disappointed and sorry that we weren’t able to support the Government. But Geoffrey’s advice was the clincher for a lot of our MPs when he made it clear that in terms of the backstop that nothing had changed in terms of the legal risk.”

Commenting on the Brexit negotiations, Mr Dodds lamented Mrs May’s decision to accept the EU’s sequencing on talks, branding the decision “catastrophic”.

“The other problem was triggering Article 50 before the Government had actually got its ducks in a row. That was another major mistake,” he continued.

“We did warn the Prime Minister. Of course, the most catastrophic error of all was the decision to accept the Irish protocol back in December [2017] in a political document.”

Mr Dodds called on ministers to revisit paragraph 50 of the Irish protocol, which would ensure that Stormont had a say over any new regulatory barrier between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

“That’s something that they should address now. That’s a pretty important area that they must look at,” he said.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/house/house-magazine/102554/excl-nigel-dodds-warns-theresa-may-we

Offline ShakaHislop

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Can see it for MV3 - knowing MV4 will follow after indicative votes - but would seem overly hopeful to think they would coalesce around any single outcome during indicative voting?

The Kyle amendment can offer something for everyone, no? It rules out no deal, is attractive to Remainers for obvious reasons and helps to get the WA passed for soft Brexiteers who believe they can push for soft Brexit in future relationship negotiations?

Offline Zeb

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Mentioned the leaks from the EU tonight, here's Telegraph's Peter Foster with a fuller analysis of the problem.

Quote
The EU is focusing down on its choices for #Article50 extension - but that could create a serious potential for a 'no deal' cliff-edge at end of June. Bear with me.

The EU says it will be "legally unstable" if UK doesn't hold elections/have MEPs.

So that means if we want a long extension, we need to commit to hold EP elections on May 23. That means legislating in UK in April.

This cd put some heat on ERG/Brexiteers to back May deal. BUT

It could also mean that IF May opts for short extension (to June 30) and we go past that April deadline, then May 23 elctions without participating, then there is NO WAY BACK. Eeek.

Because if we get to June 29, and haven't held elections, then (on this basis) that's it.

So imagine this.

May wins MV3, with reluctant ERG votes, by a small margin. Asks for June 30 extension for paperwork to be completed.

Then the ERG revokes support....

From recollection from when this was discussed a few months back, it's 6 weeks minimum to arrange an election*. So the cut off point to revocation would be mid-April. Beyond that Labour will have to abstain to avoid 'no deal' if May doesn't have a majority to pass any remaining legislation etc. Labour rebels' incentive not to be seen as having enabled a Tory Brexit becomes weaker too, which was the point being made on this in the past about how taking the legislation through parliament would be a ballache for both Tories and Labour.

* - could theoretically be shortened by new legislation, but it would have to be cross-party in this instance.
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Offline Zeb

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The Kyle amendment can offer something for everyone, no? It rules out no deal, is attractive to Remainers for obvious reasons and helps to get the WA passed for soft Brexiteers who believe they can push for soft Brexit in future relationship negotiations?

No incentive to compromise though as both broad sets of supporters in parliament are pretty sure their's is the only true way forward. (Why People's Vote were having their bunfight this week - 'can't have a vote until it's the only option left' etc.) Worth mentioning too that a lot of the 'soft' Brexiters from the Tory side hate the WA as much for keeping us in a customs union as for it keeping us out of the single market.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline ShakaHislop

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EXCL Jeremy Corbyn may not back bid for second EU referendum until after Brexit deal agreed

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The Labour party is mulling whether to table a People's Vote amendment to the legislation needed to deliver Brexit once a deal between the UK and Brussels is done and dusted.

A source said it would be “difficult to put a proposition to the public before that proposition is agreed” - but such a delay is likely to anger supporters of the so-called ‘People’s Vote’ campaign.

Labour has edged towards backing a second referendum on Brexit after it failed to secure a general election - in line with its official policy agreed at party conference last year.

It has tasked backbenchers Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson to prepare an amendment demanding any Brexit deal agreed by MPs is put to the public in a referendum.

The Hove and Sedgefield MPs are still expecting to table their amendment before the next so-called meaningful vote on the Brexit deal Theresa May brought back from Brussels.

But a Labour source said it would make more sense to push the Commons into backing a referendum once MPs had settled on the withdrawal plan.

“It would be difficult to win support for putting a proposition to the public before that proposition is agreed,” they said.

“It could have the added benefit of being a bid to unite the country - giving it something to coalesce around once the debate on the deal is finished - rather than dividing it further.”

They added: “If the Government passes its deal then it is reasonable to bring it back to the people to make sure they are happy with what is on offer.”

Independent Group MP Chuka Umunna said: "We cannot give the Labour Party's eurosceptic leadership a veto on putting the principle of a People's Vote to the House of Commons because they are running down the clock, just like Theresa May, and will only come out for it when it's too late.

"Under the spirit of the Labour party conference motion on Brexit, they should have been backing a People's Vote weeks ago and yet Jeremy Corbyn continues to betray his members and supporters on this issue which is why many are leaving the party."

But Mr Kyle insisted claims that Labour would wait until after a Brexit deal is agreed before backing a fresh referendum were “categorically not true”.

“Labour will either table an amendment on a confirmatory vote or support Phil and mine, which will go down on, or before, the next meaningful vote,” he said.

“Phil and I will be tabling soon and Labour will be supporting and I have been given nothing to make me believe otherwise.”

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/102539/excl-jeremy-corbyn-may-not-back-bid

Offline Zeb

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EXCL Jeremy Corbyn may not back bid for second EU referendum until after Brexit deal agreed

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/102539/excl-jeremy-corbyn-may-not-back-bid

Reads like a very clever pisstake of the consequences of Labour's position. "Jez wants to campaign for Leave next time - be a unifying thing for the country, apart from the 2/3+ of the Labour vote who want to Remain."
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline No666

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Mentioned the leaks from the EU tonight, here's Telegraph's Peter Foster with a fuller analysis of the problem.

From recollection from when this was discussed a few months back, it's 6 weeks minimum to arrange an election*. So the cut off point to revocation would be mid-April. Beyond that Labour will have to abstain to avoid 'no deal' if May doesn't have a majority to pass any remaining legislation etc. Labour rebels' incentive not to be seen as having enabled a Tory Brexit becomes weaker too, which was the point being made on this in the past about how taking the legislation through parliament would be a ballache for both Tories and Labour.

* - could theoretically be shortened by new legislation, but it would have to be cross-party in this instance.
I'm sitting in a rainforest trying to follow brexit on rawk so bear with if I've got this wrong: what would there be to stop parliament revoking a50 if the erg decided on the route foster suggests?

Offline Zeb

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I'm sitting in a rainforest trying to follow brexit on rawk so bear with if I've got this wrong: what would there be to stop parliament revoking a50 if the erg decided on the route foster suggests?

Long and short is that the EU are coming to the view that we can't stay in the EU if we don't take part in the EU Parliament elections so would make an extension with that condition in mind. And once we've past the point of being able to arrange them then May's 'deal' is the only thing left (albeit after a crash out if the ERG get their way). So nothing stopping Parliament revoking Article 50 if everything is sorted before that point but government would have to bypass normal ways of passing bills to try to do that in a fortnight and runs into the problem of needing crossparty support if the ERG were against it.

Enjoy your rainforest. :)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 12:12:15 am by Zeb »
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."