Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1448069 times)

Offline It's Jimmy Corkhill

  • No more scrapping in Page Moss. Marxist.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,712
  • Hasta La Victoria Siempre....
There's no way May is overturning a 145 deficit.  If she's really lucky she'll get it below 100, perhaps 80.  That might give her the confidence to go for a fourth vote but she's definitely not winning a third.

I really hope Parliament has some gonads on this and stands firm.

The third vote will sadly go through. The ERG will flap about Article 50 being revoked and the DUP appear to have their palms greased. When push comes to shove, dirty Tory c*nts will look after themselves as per. Any Brexit is better than no Brexit for them.
"I'm a people man. Only the people matter".
-Bill Shankly.

Offline Libertine

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,492
  • Nothing behind me, everything ahead of me
Dutch eurocrat: “This is the most boring crisis ever... It just goes on and on and on, about the same thing. And, you know, the British reputation will be ruined for decades – like France in the 1980s. That will be the UK. You can see it happening already"

“The damage for the UK of all this is done,” added Lamberts, a self-confessed anglophile. “It is huge. I wish all those who talk about global Britain well. They will be mincemeat at the hands of the likes of Donald Trump and will be snubbed by those who used to be their colonies. How long this damage will last, I don’t know. I suppose it depends on whether the lunatics stay in charge.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/16/brexit-disbelief-in-europe-at-another-lost-week-theresa-may-strasbourg-juncker

Offline Ghost Town

  • RAWK snitch. Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory", the Suzy Dent-esque freakshow! Hannoying homunculus.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,899
  • mundus vult decipi
The third vote will sadly go through. The ERG will flap about Article 50 being revoked and the DUP appear to have their palms greased. When push comes to shove, dirty Tory c*nts will look after themselves as per. Any Brexit is better than no Brexit for them.
That's my fear as well. Mentally I've almost started looking past the inevitability of Brexit to what kind of campaigns and actions we can mount in order to get ourselves back into the EU as soon as possible.

I've not given up hope, but I'm getting close
"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."
Samuel (not Glen) Johnson, as reported by James (not Joey) Boswell. They must have foreseen RAWK ;D

Offline Banquo's Ghost

  • Macbeth's on repeat. To boldly split infinitives that lesser men would dare. To.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,480
That's my fear as well. Mentally I've almost started looking past the inevitability of Brexit to what kind of campaigns and actions we can mount in order to get ourselves back into the EU as soon as possible.

I've not given up hope, but I'm getting close

I hate to keep doing this, but the UK is not getting back into the EU. To think it is an option is another delusion.

The pool of 'friends' is almost empty, and there is a very substantial conviction against the idea if Britain leaves. The EU is going to be facing a decade or more of its own problems, they are simply not going to be interested in playing these stupid games all over again.

Maybe, just maybe in a generation, if it can be proven that over 80% of the British electorate are firmly in favour of membership (on the very 'federalist' terms likely to be on offer) there might be a softening, but I doubt it.

Bear in mind that the current crap is just over the Withdrawal Agreement. There's a decade or more of actual trade deals and defining the working relationship if any to come, even assuming the WA is passed. This will use valuable resources from the EU that could be helping better members' futures. The resentment will continue each time some fatuous Tory minister insults the EU for political advantage.

When it's over it's over.
Be humble, for you are made of earth. Be noble, for you are made of stars.

Offline fudge

  • RAWK Gaylord
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,807
  • "I'm a swine, its my nature"
    • Fat man dancing
I think theres another argument not being made.
May has no future deal, the leave campaign promised the country we would have a future deal signed before we left the EU. this promise was made on leave campaign leaflets.

Do you know exactly where in the leaflet, i've been looking but can't find it as explicit as that
Rubber Dinghy Rapids....

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Do you know exactly where in the leaflet, i've been looking but can't find it as explicit as that

This was one of the press releases the official Leave campaign put out. (15th June 2016)



http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/a_framework_for_taking_back_control_and_establishing_a_new_uk_eu_deal_after_23_june.html

"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Trada

  • Fully paid up member of the JC cult. Ex-Tory boy. Corbyn's Chief Hagiographer. Sometimes hasn't got a kloop.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 22,812
  • Trada
Anna Mikhailova
‏ @AVMikhailova
1h1 hour ago

EXCL: Here is the final text of the Kyle-Wilson amendment, tweaked after input from Keir Starmer.

It will be tabled on MeaningfulVote3 this week and Labour will whip for it.

It aims to get May's deal over the line in Parliament - but only if it is then put to a referendum.

Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

“I carry them with me: what they would have thought and said and done. Make them a part of who I am. So even though they’re gone from the world they’re never gone from me.

Offline fudge

  • RAWK Gaylord
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,807
  • "I'm a swine, its my nature"
    • Fat man dancing
Rubber Dinghy Rapids....

Online oldfordie

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,440
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
This was one of the press releases the official Leave campaign put out. (15th June 2016)



http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/a_framework_for_taking_back_control_and_establishing_a_new_uk_eu_deal_after_23_june.html
I didn't bother searching for any leave leaflets as the claim came from a reputable sauce during a TV debate.
Maybe Zebs post confirms the claim. not exactly a leaflet though but does argue we should have a EU-UK treaty in place before getting rid of the treaty we have now.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Cheers for that

Stringer was on the board of Vote Leave and he got fed up of me asking him about it. ;) But, as you hinted at, there were levels to their campaign and a lot of the stuff they were putting out to some people wasn't necessarily their message to others.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Anna Mikhailova
‏ @AVMikhailova
1h1 hour ago

EXCL: Here is the final text of the Kyle-Wilson amendment, tweaked after input from Keir Starmer.

It will be tabled on MeaningfulVote3 this week and Labour will whip for it.

It aims to get May's deal over the line in Parliament - but only if it is then put to a referendum.



That leaves wiggle room for Labour's Brexit "plan" to be an option in that "confirmation ballot" in addition to/or instead of Remain.

I'm not confident it'll pass, as you'll need something like 20+ Tories to rebel to offset Labour rebels but it's still good that they're whipping in favour of this.

Offline TheShanklyGates

  • Firmly in the "shake it all about" camp
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,858
  • Outside The Shankly Gates...
That leaves wiggle room for Labour's Brexit "plan" to be an option in that "confirmation ballot" in addition to/or instead of Remain.

I'm not confident it'll pass, as you'll need something like 20+ Tories to rebel to offset Labour rebels but it's still good that they're whipping in favour of this.

I think unfortunately it needs to be as vague as possible at this stage to stand even a slight chance of passing. If it explicitly said that remain would be an option you'd get nowhere near.
I've just wiped the sticky residue from my bellend onto the television screen. Taste it Leo. You deserve it.
I would honestly let Wijnaldum jizz in my face right now

Online BoRed

  • BoRing
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,907
  • BoRac
That leaves wiggle room for Labour's Brexit "plan" to be an option in that "confirmation ballot" in addition to/or instead of Remain.

I'm not confident it'll pass, as you'll need something like 20+ Tories to rebel to offset Labour rebels but it's still good that they're whipping in favour of this.

I think the idea is that if this doesn't pass, neither will May's deal. Like I said before, I don't like the idea of May's deal passing subject to a referendum, but it now seems to be the only way to secure a referendum. And if it's Remain v May's deal, Labour will fully back remain, which is a bonus.

Offline Kashinoda

  • More broken biscuits than made of crisps
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,923
  • ....mmm
That leaves wiggle room for Labour's Brexit "plan" to be an option in that "confirmation ballot" in addition to/or instead of Remain.

I'm not confident it'll pass, as you'll need something like 20+ Tories to rebel to offset Labour rebels but it's still good that they're whipping in favour of this.

If that amendment gets in May will whip against her own deal.
:D

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
I think the idea is that if this doesn't pass, neither will May's deal. Like I said before, I don't like the idea of May's deal passing subject to a referendum, but it now seems to be the only way to secure a referendum. And if it's Remain v May's deal, Labour will fully back remain, which is a bonus.

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you saying if there's not a majority for the Kyle amendment, there'll never be one for May's deal?

If that amendment gets in May will whip against her own deal.

Maybe, but I don't think she'd win.

Not that she cares, but she'd look like a joke (again) because it'd make a mockery out of her "the public just want us to get on it with it" line, and also because it'd come across as her lacking confidence in her deal and the chances of it winning support from the public.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 12:47:17 am by ShakaHislop »

Offline Ghost Town

  • RAWK snitch. Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory", the Suzy Dent-esque freakshow! Hannoying homunculus.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,899
  • mundus vult decipi
I hate to keep doing this, but the UK is not getting back into the EU. To think it is an option is another delusion.

The pool of 'friends' is almost empty, and there is a very substantial conviction against the idea if Britain leaves. The EU is going to be facing a decade or more of its own problems, they are simply not going to be interested in playing these stupid games all over again.

Maybe, just maybe in a generation, if it can be proven that over 80% of the British electorate are firmly in favour of membership (on the very 'federalist' terms likely to be on offer) there might be a softening, but I doubt it.

Bear in mind that the current crap is just over the Withdrawal Agreement. There's a decade or more of actual trade deals and defining the working relationship if any to come, even assuming the WA is passed. This will use valuable resources from the EU that could be helping better members' futures. The resentment will continue each time some fatuous Tory minister insults the EU for political advantage.

When it's over it's over.
Well I don't agree, but I won't argue about it. Maybe you're right, but we still need to present a front of showing we want to rejoin, so the world knows that an irresponsible act has occured against the wishes of so many. It would be gutless for all we millions of Remainers to just shrug and forget about it. I don't think most of us could, even if we wanted to.
"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."
Samuel (not Glen) Johnson, as reported by James (not Joey) Boswell. They must have foreseen RAWK ;D

Offline red1977

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,217
Just read this on the BBC from May this morning. Cant quite wrap my head wround it. Is she saying that opinions must have changed since 2016 and therefore votes in parliament must be made to reflect these changes of opinion in order to get her deal through???

In her article, Mrs May said she has more to do to convince dozens of Tory MPs to back the deal - as well as getting the Democratic Unionist Party to drop their opposition.

She wrote: "I am convinced that the time to define ourselves by how we voted in 2016 must now end.

"We can only put those old labels aside if we stand together as democrats and patriots, pragmatically making the honourable compromises necessary to heal division and move forward."


I mean come the fuck on!!. She is admitting politicians must sensibly change their minds about where they were in 2016 to get her deal through but we cant have a peoples vote and continuously pushes the will of the people shit as set in stone.

https://www.bbc.com/news/47599860

« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 07:24:52 am by red1977 »

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,376
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Well I don't agree, but I won't argue about it. Maybe you're right, but we still need to present a front of showing we want to rejoin, so the world knows that an irresponsible act has occured against the wishes of so many. It would be gutless for all we millions of Remainers to just shrug and forget about it. I don't think most of us could, even if we wanted to.

Dutch eurocrat: “This is the most boring crisis ever... It just goes on and on and on, about the same thing. And, you know, the British reputation will be ruined for decades – like France in the 1980s. That will be the UK. You can see it happening already"

“The damage for the UK of all this is done,” added Lamberts, a self-confessed anglophile. “It is huge. I wish all those who talk about global Britain well. They will be mincemeat at the hands of the likes of Donald Trump and will be snubbed by those who used to be their colonies. How long this damage will last, I don’t know. I suppose it depends on whether the lunatics stay in charge.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/16/brexit-disbelief-in-europe-at-another-lost-week-theresa-may-strasbourg-juncker
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline It's Jimmy Corkhill

  • No more scrapping in Page Moss. Marxist.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,712
  • Hasta La Victoria Siempre....
Anna Mikhailova
‏ @AVMikhailova
1h1 hour ago

EXCL: Here is the final text of the Kyle-Wilson amendment, tweaked after input from Keir Starmer.

It will be tabled on MeaningfulVote3 this week and Labour will whip for it.

It aims to get May's deal over the line in Parliament - but only if it is then put to a referendum.



This is the end game, Russian roulette with people's lives and futures.

If this is how May gets her deal through Parliament, many people's stance in terms of campaigning will be interesting, May in particular.
"I'm a people man. Only the people matter".
-Bill Shankly.

Offline M(oaning) B(ecomes) E(mbarrassing)

  • Worthless.
  • RAWK Embarrassment
  • Legacy Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 4,587
  • Thoroughly thought through
It's OK there are only about 30 of them, and most of them are taking the bus, or punching women.

This so-called 'march' exemplifies Frottage’s politics all over. A big fanfare promoted by his friends in the right wing press and then when it comes under even a modicum of scrutiny it isn’t quite what it was said it would be. In fact it bears no resemblance what so ever to what he has said. Lions led by donkeys? How can even that be when the donkey isn’t at the front? I would suggest the well meaning gullible manipulated by buffoons would be a bit closer to what we are actually seeing. 
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

Offline losCHUNK

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
I'd take Mays deal to a public vote, but you know it'll be a choice of which knacker you want the nail in.  'No deal or my deal, Brexit means Brexit, if you want a deal then you vote for my...."

I don't think i'd be so angry if this wasn't all so incompetent and deliberately obtuse.

Offline red1977

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,217
I'd take Mays deal to a public vote, but you know it'll be a choice of which knacker you want the nail in.  'No deal or my deal, Brexit means Brexit, if you want a deal then you vote for my...."

I don't think i'd be so angry if this wasn't all so incompetent and deliberately obtuse.

Can no deal be on any ballot paper, now that its been voted off the table?

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,454
Can no deal be on any ballot paper, now that its been voted off the table?

Politically how is it staying off the ballot paper? The high profile Leavers hate May’s deal and there is Remain.

Offline Kekule

  • Not fussy.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,302
"We can only put those old labels aside if we stand together as democrats and patriots, pragmatically making the honourable compromises necessary to heal division and move forward."[/i]

https://www.bbc.com/news/47599860

Also, a compromise isn’t where you stand resolute with your own view and red lines and then demand other people come round to it. It’s where both sides make concessions. 

She hasn’t compromised at all, at any point, which is largely why we’re in this situation.  Everyone can see it but her.


Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,032
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
I hate to keep doing this, but the UK is not getting back into the EU. To think it is an option is another delusion.

The pool of 'friends' is almost empty, and there is a very substantial conviction against the idea if Britain leaves. The EU is going to be facing a decade or more of its own problems, they are simply not going to be interested in playing these stupid games all over again.

Maybe, just maybe in a generation, if it can be proven that over 80% of the British electorate are firmly in favour of membership (on the very 'federalist' terms likely to be on offer) there might be a softening, but I doubt it.

Bear in mind that the current crap is just over the Withdrawal Agreement. There's a decade or more of actual trade deals and defining the working relationship if any to come, even assuming the WA is passed. This will use valuable resources from the EU that could be helping better members' futures. The resentment will continue each time some fatuous Tory minister insults the EU for political advantage.

When it's over it's over.
This.

I've made similar comments here in the past. There is no way the UK will be allowed back in the EU anytime soon. Like you say, maybe in a generation, if we are lucky. The UK has demonstrated that we are not to be trusted. And, we have been bad-faith members pretty-much from the beginning.

What I can see happening in the event of a no-deal Brexit is the WA agreement (or something similar) being belatedly agreed (within a couple of months) - if only to bring an end to the absolute chaos and to stabilise UK (and more crucially) EU markets. This would be an acceptable outcome for the EU, but shit for the UK (just not quite as shit as No-Deal). But then we get to go through this again in two years. In theory, we should have learned our lesson and stay in the CU, but I would not bank on anything. So, unless all this is somehow stopped at the eleventh hour, the UK will go through short-term chaos and then into steady decline for at least a generation. Hooray for Brexit!

So, if the WA is belatedly agreed (by the summer), will this be regarded as a belated win for May? I guess it might be. But there will be years of this shit for the UK - what's happening now is only the end of the beginning.

I've bugged out of all this shit. After moving to the UK last August for family reasons, my wife and I have now moved to France. Just signed the papers for a long-term lease yesterday, back to home on Tuesday for a few days to pick up the cats* and the rest of our belongings, and then back to France for the forseeable. I'll soon have my Irish passport, my wife has dual US/Swiss citizenship, so no problem there. I hope our rush to get out all proves unnecessary. I feel for my UK family and friends, and for all the UK-based RAWKites here.

* Pet passporting being another one of those myriad of things which will cease  to function post-Brexit. It will be least of most people's worries.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Online jepovic

  • Only interested in the "prestigious" games, so won't be celebrating anything less.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,801
  • Meh sd f
I hate to keep doing this, but the UK is not getting back into the EU. To think it is an option is another delusion.

The pool of 'friends' is almost empty, and there is a very substantial conviction against the idea if Britain leaves. The EU is going to be facing a decade or more of its own problems, they are simply not going to be interested in playing these stupid games all over again.

Maybe, just maybe in a generation, if it can be proven that over 80% of the British electorate are firmly in favour of membership (on the very 'federalist' terms likely to be on offer) there might be a softening, but I doubt it.

Bear in mind that the current crap is just over the Withdrawal Agreement. There's a decade or more of actual trade deals and defining the working relationship if any to come, even assuming the WA is passed. This will use valuable resources from the EU that could be helping better members' futures. The resentment will continue each time some fatuous Tory minister insults the EU for political advantage.

When it's over it's over.
I think you're wrong. I think EU has shown that UK can stop and reverse this process at any time. EU cares far less about UK than UK thinks. There's just so much else going on inside EU and its members. Brexit is a drama, but it's a small problem compared with the rise of fascism, climate change or migrants dying in thousands. Incompetent and selfish politicians are not unique to UK.

You're vastly underestimating the amount of internal crap EU is willing to put up with from member states. This will make me sound like a brexiteer, but some member states are barely democratic, they have lots of corruption, they refuse to abide to EU decisions. Also, many of them are poor and are draining the EU economy. In comparision with countries like Romania, or candidate countries like Serbia, UK is a fantastic member.

Why does EU still put up with them? Because EU is a peace project, a cultural and political project based on the idea that collaboration is almost always better than isolation. For instance Serbia might be a pain as a EU member, but that would still be better than a new war. Similarly, UK is a pain but as a member it brings money, trade, military strength and a much better chance for peace in NI.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 09:22:03 am by jepovic »

Online BoRed

  • BoRing
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,907
  • BoRac
I'm not sure what you mean? Are you saying if there's not a majority for the Kyle amendment, there'll never be one for May's deal?

Not never, but certainly next week. If the amendment passes, Labour would abstain on the deal. If it doesn't, they'd vote against the deal.

I think part of Labour's thinking is that at a later stage, the deal may well pass even with Labour voting against it, so it may be better to abstain now and put it to a referendum, then see it pass later.

Offline Iska

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,136
  • The only club that matters
I agree that once we’re out we’re not going back in, not because the EU wouldn’t take us but because public opinion here will change.  In any hypothetical future referendum Join would have to argue for overturning the status quo which, however shit it looks to us now, will at that time just be the normal way of life in Britain, and moreover one that 52% of the population is passionately committed to defending.  If we are to remain, it’s got to happen now.

Offline Riquende

  • Taking one for the team by giving one to a lucky mascot? Pix or stfu!! (Although is PC is from the 90s so you'll have to wait a while...)
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,779
  • Μετρήστε με με μανία
Nick Boles: Tory MP quits local party over Brexit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47594875

Does nobody actually know how the UK's politics work?

From the Guardian's story on the same subject:

Quote
Cllr Martin Hill, the vice-president of the Grantham and Stamford Conservative Association, told local party members: “As you are all aware, Nick has been at odds with the local party and the prime minister for some time, so this announcement does not come as a complete surprise, but the timing does leave at lot to be desired.

“I understand that it is Mr Boles’s intention to carry on as the MP for Grantham and Stamford until the next general election, despite being elected to represent us in parliament.”

No, he was elected to represent all of his constituents you ignorant twat, this isn't 1819 where a group of wealthy landowners get together to send 'their man' to parliament to look after their narrow interests.
"The nicest thing about quotes is that they give us a nodding acquaintance with the originator which is often socially impressive."

~ Kenneth Williams, with whom I'm noddingly acquainted. Socially impressed?

Offline Ghost Town

  • RAWK snitch. Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory", the Suzy Dent-esque freakshow! Hannoying homunculus.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,899
  • mundus vult decipi
I think you're wrong. I think EU has shown that UK can stop and reverse this process at any time. EU cares far less about UK than UK thinks. There's just so much else going on inside EU and its members. Brexit is a drama, but it's a small problem compared with the rise of fascism, climate change or migrants dying in thousands. Incompetent and selfish politicians are not unique to UK.

You're vastly underestimating the amount of internal crap EU is willing to put up with from member states. This will make me sound like a brexiteer, but some member states are barely democratic, they have lots of corruption, they refuse to abide to EU decisions. Also, many of them are poor and are draining the EU economy. In comparision with countries like Romania, or candidate countries like Serbia, UK is a fantastic member.

Why does EU still put up with them? Because EU is a peace project, a cultural and political project based on the idea that collaboration is almost always better than isolation. For instance Serbia might be a pain as a EU member, but that would still be better than a new war. Similarly, UK is a pain but as a member it brings money, trade, military strength and a much better chance for peace in NI.
I agree with much of what you say, esp. the last paragraph.

If the UK showed a genuine willingness to rejoin I don't think the EU would prevent it. As battered and humiliated as the UK may end up, having us within the bloc would still be seen as preferable than not. Even if our prestige and glamour and standing has been [self] trashed, we would still share many political, cultural and social values and several millennia of shared history. And it would be seen as a validation of the EU project that a state which left acrimoniously, quickly returned, cap in hand, and asked to be let back in again, and that the Union was magnanimous. It would also be seen as a material blow to aggressive right wing secessionist movements.

And I wouldn't read too much into what understandably angry and frustrated individuals are saying today, or use that to pre-define the views of the EU in a few years time.

I guess there are two diametrically opposed points of view on this among the posters here, and generally among Remainers there does seem to be a degree of self-flagellation about all this. A kind of 'we'll be finished, and it's our own fault and serve us bloody well right' kind of rhetoric. I exhibit it myself, quite often. Arguing about it isn't going to help anyone, so I'm happy to respect the other viewpoint and concede it may be correct, whilst hoping and being fairly confident that it isn't.

But I would hope that other view would not colour or restrict the actions of remainers after any Brexit. That is when we would need to remain united and keep the pressure on. Not let the 'victorious' Leavers and bigots have things their own way.

If we give up then any chance of rejoining, even if it is small, will just get even smaller.

Anyway, it ain't done yet. While there's hope...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 04:08:44 pm by Ghost Town »
"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it."
Samuel (not Glen) Johnson, as reported by James (not Joey) Boswell. They must have foreseen RAWK ;D

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Philip Hammond on Marr today

Quote
AM: This week you’ve been sitting with the DUP. If the deal is going to get through you clearly need to DUP to vote for it. What have they been asking for and what have you offered?

PH: Well, the DUP, as I think you will have heard Nigel Dodds saying on Friday, is primarily concerned about the threat of divergence between the regime in Northern Ireland and the regime in Great Britain. The DUP are passionate unionists. I’m a passionate unionist myself. And I regard it as crucially important that we do not allow differences to grow up between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. And we’re looking for ways in which the government can reassure Northern Irish politicians about our clear intention to make sure that there are no such differences as we go forward, if the backstop ever had to come into force.

Quote
AM: Almost everybody watching will conclude from that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has offered the DUP extra money in return for votes.

PH: No, no that’s not – that’s not where the discussion has been at all. The discussion has been around – the discussion has been around the – how we are going to reassure them about our clear intention to avoid differences in regulatory approach growing up between Northern Ireland and GB. How we’re going to reassure them that there won’t be a border in the Irish Sea of any kind, even if we do have to go into the backstop. And of course we all very much hope, and I very much expect, that we will never find ourselves in the position of needing to use the backstop.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/17031903.pdf

Like the idea of time limits and unilateral exits, if Northern Ireland does not continue to have some regulatory alignment with the EU, the backstop ceases to be a backstop.

The only way the DUP can avoid entering into the backstop, and avoid regulatory divergence from the rest of the UK is if the whole of the UK either stays in the single market and a permanent customs union, or remains in the EU. But then the DUP, nor the ERG, doesn't like the sound of those options either.

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Like the idea of time limits and unilateral exits, if Northern Ireland does not continue to have some regulatory alignment with the EU, the backstop ceases to be a backstop.

The only way the DUP can avoid entering into the backstop, and avoid regulatory divergence from the rest of the UK is if the whole of the UK either stays in the single market and a permanent customs union, or remains in the EU. But then the DUP, nor the ERG, doesn't like the sound of those options either.

Sounds like they're being asked to take it on trust that the UK will accept new EU regulations NI has to follow so long as the backstop is in force, and Peston is suggesting that they may be up for that. We reaching the point where someone clever pipes up to ask whether freedom of movement is worth torching services over?
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Sounds like they're being asked to take it on trust that the UK will accept new EU regulations NI has to follow so long as the backstop is in force, and Peston is suggesting that they may be up for that. We reaching the point where someone clever pipes up to ask whether freedom of movement is worth torching services over?

So nothing new around the issue of unilateral exit from the backstop?

Also, will the EU accept the plan Peston describes? It could be seen as undermining the single market.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 07:04:23 pm by ShakaHislop »

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
So nothing new around the issue of unilateral exit from the backstop?

What I've seen being reported this evening is suggesting that May thinks the ERG have caved in, at least for the moment, and she's going into what she can offer the DUP that the British government can unilaterally deliver. Transition is going to be a shitshow.

edit: just caught your edit on posting, doesn't do anything to single market because it's the UK saying "we'll follow your latest regulations even though we're not a member". Which is daft, and rules out all the stuff the ERG say they want and May can't actually promise will definitely happen, but here we are.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
What I've seen being reported this evening is suggesting that May thinks the ERG have caved in, at least for the moment, and she's going into what she can offer the DUP that the British government can unilaterally deliver. Transition is going to be a shitshow.

edit: just caught your edit on posting, doesn't do anything to single market because it's the UK saying "we'll follow your latest regulations even though we're not a member". Which is daft, and rules out all the stuff the ERG say they want and May can't actually promise will definitely happen, but here we are.

I think May could be in for a nasty surprise.

Regarding the regulations plan, it means, in practice, the rest of the UK being under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, doesn't it?

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
I think May could be in for a nasty surprise.

Regarding the regulations plan, it means, in practice, the rest of the UK being under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, doesn't it?


Yeah, it does. It would seem to point towards us ending up within the single market, with it ruling out the US trade deal unless someone comes up with an infrastructure free way to have a border, if things were a little more rational.

ERG have plenty of time to derail this though, don't they? Banjax the legislation during a short extension to force a cliff edge knowing the opposition parties will have to bail the government out. Then run their own candidate for leadership knowing they're almost certain to get into the final two for a fruitloop membership to elect and etc etc. Seeing stuff from EU pundits already hinting towards concerns in the EU that a new Tory leader will want to begin the future relationship talks by trying to rewrite the Withdrawal Agreement which would sound about right.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline stara

  • ra-boom-de-ay. RAWK's very own Dicktionary Corner.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,687
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
would a Bremain, or a Breturn as some call it, be possible? Would the UK be able to function as an EU member state, once again, as if nothing happened?

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2019/03/14/perhaps-theyd-better-go-a3953265
50+1. Real FFP rules. Now.

Offline Dr. Beaker

  • Veo, to his mates. Shares 50% of his DNA with a banana. Would dearly love to strangle Frankengoose. Lo! Be he not ye Messiah, verily be he a child of questionable conduct in the eyes of Ye Holy Border Guards.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,800
  • I... think I am, therefore...I....maybe.
Can't see us being a functioning member again - I think they'll call us Bromiders.
NAKED BOOBERY

Rile-Me costed L. Nee-Naw "The Child" Torrence the first jack the hat-trick since Eon Rush vs Accursed Toffos, many moons passed. Nee-Naw he could have done a concreted his palace in the pantyhose off the LibPole Gods...was not was for the invented intervention of Rile-Me whistler.

Offline Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,544
Given that NI voted to remain and the attitude of the DUP, I sincerely hope they get a right kicking at the next election.
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline drmick

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,726
Given that NI voted to remain and the attitude of the DUP, I sincerely hope they get a right kicking at the next election.

Both the DUP and Sinn Fein have been gaining voters for years now. The UUP and SDLP are becoming increasingly irrelevant.