Author Topic: Atheism  (Read 182876 times)

Offline thejbs

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #80 on: August 11, 2017, 05:13:08 pm »
The only condition upon an instinct developing is its affect on fitness. The other problem than the arbitrariness is being able to go against instincts. Suppose you think it is immoral to lie but a nazi knocks on your door and asks if you are hiding any jews, I imagine most people in this situation would go against their instincts to speak the truth and lie so that the nazis can't get to their friends.

This is just an extension of, as most morality is, the so-called Golden Rule, which in itself would appear to be an evolutionary development.  In your example, the lie is compelled by concern for your friends and your empathy/sympathy towards their plight.

This doesn't go against the notion of innate instinct. Humans and other animals have a sense of fairness and a predisposition to cooperate, even when it does them no discernible good.  Is this more likely the result of evolution as social creatures, or a God?

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #81 on: August 11, 2017, 05:14:09 pm »
It is a study to test preconceived intuitive prejudices not a study on whether atheists are immoral.

How would they know the results beforehand and how would they influence the headlines stemming from it?

From the study:

'Here, we rigorously test a prediction derived from a cultural evolutionary model of religion: that anti-atheist prejudice remains globally prevalent, even in secular societies and among atheists. In contrast to previous studies, we quantify levels of anti-atheist distrust using well-tested measures of intuitive information processing that can be adapted for studying prejudice in a large and diverse cross-cultural sample'

They may not have known the results but they knew what they were trying to demonstrate.

And people really need to understand that there is a whole PR industry that funds studies like this. Avocados, religion, perfume... it doesn't really matter and it doesn't really make a lot of difference what the results show as the PR company will push a press release to the press agency and the understaffed news organisation will publish the press release as a story.

This is about having your own conversation, not a conversation that has been framed by someone else. 

It's a 'when did you stop beating your wife?' situation.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #82 on: August 11, 2017, 05:27:08 pm »
From the study:

'Here, we rigorously test a prediction derived from a cultural evolutionary model of religion: that anti-atheist prejudice remains globally prevalent, even in secular societies and among atheists. In contrast to previous studies, we quantify levels of anti-atheist distrust using well-tested measures of intuitive information processing that can be adapted for studying prejudice in a large and diverse cross-cultural sample'

They may not have known the results but they knew what they were trying to demonstrate.

And people really need to understand that there is a whole PR industry that funds studies like this. Avocados, religion, perfume... it doesn't really matter and it doesn't really make a lot of difference what the results show as the PR company will push a press release to the press agency and the understaffed news organisation will publish the press release as a story.

This is about having your own conversation, not a conversation that has been framed by someone else. 

It's a 'when did you stop beating your wife?' situation.

Totally agree people need to understand that paragraph of context you put together - I'd recommend Bad Science and Bad Pharma by Ben Goldacre as fun and informative books (well the latter isn't actually fun, but interesting) as good introductions to this.

Still, I believe you've (not deliberately) misconstrued that quote from the study you've cited and laid it out as if it's some smoking gun proof of a bias at origin of the study. All it is is a summary of what the study is setting out to measure, before diving into the more complex methodology it is utilising to measure this.

So you said "They may not have known the results but they knew what they were trying to demonstrate." I would change that to "what they were trying to measure". And it's good news they did. It would be terribly bad science otherwise. All experiments that don't initially set out knowing what they are trying to measure, and document this, will lead to data that is entirely unusable, useful only to charlatans.

Also, as for you saying "This is about having your own conversation, not a conversation that has been framed by someone else" - well sure. Everyone should do that. And those conversations will offer everyone an anecdotal insight into societal perceptions of atheists - but the plural of anecdote is evidence. This experiment is laying out the evidence of 1300 peoples perceptions. It's results tell us nothing about the morality of atheists or the religious, nor do they try to. Just what people perceive of that. The results also don't portray anything subjective, such as being good/bad/positive/negative.

I fail to see how these results could even be considered in the religious foundation's favour. In addition, the part you've bolded is yet more evidence that the authors of the study are not biased against atheists, nor prejudiced in favour of the religious (this citation suggests the opposite if anything).

PS Sorry I've failed to reply to your earlier message Alan, busy day at work. I'll reply to it later
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 05:31:12 pm by Classycara »

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #83 on: August 11, 2017, 06:02:52 pm »
In the context of scientific studies I think this is worth posting.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/0Rnq1NpHdmw" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/0Rnq1NpHdmw</a>

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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #84 on: August 11, 2017, 06:22:45 pm »
This is just an extension of, as most morality is, the so-called Golden Rule, which in itself would appear to be an evolutionary development.  In your example, the lie is compelled by concern for your friends and your empathy/sympathy towards their plight.

This doesn't go against the notion of innate instinct. Humans and other animals have a sense of fairness and a predisposition to cooperate, even when it does them no discernible good.  Is this more likely the result of evolution as social creatures, or a God?

All life on this planet is similar. Much of that life is very similar. I have shown other animals make choices that are not solely selfish (with apologies to Dawkins' Selfish Gene), which is as close a definition of morality as we're probably going to have. The only difference between humans and other animals is that we have evolved in different ways. Other animals have skills that put us to shame, but we have developed more intellectually. Having said that, the average chimp is far better at some intellectual tasks than any human. The animals that most resemble us are also probably (though not definitely) more developed in terms of morality. There is no logical difference between evolution in biological terms and in mental acuity terms, and naturally in morality terms. Other animals have some morality, which they evolved themselves. It would be ridiculous to suggest that we didn't evolve in the same way, just further advanced.

But that is precisely what a troubling amount of people would have you believe. Religion has somehow convinced them that despite all logical evidence to the contrary, humans and only humans were magically endowed with a turbo shot of morality by some outside agency at some point in our development. The same people tend to believe that humans and only humans are in some way capable of surviving death by ascending to another plane of some sort. Again, there is zero evidence for that. If you ever find someone who believes in both evolution and heaven, ask them when we got heaven, and if neanderthals went to heaven, and other apes and if not why not. Ask them what date heaven opened for humans.

This is why Darwin was so deeply fatal to religion, with its utterly human centric rewriting of history. Darwin made it absolutely undeniable that we  humans are inextricably related to all life on the planet, and that there is nothing particularly special about us other than our (current) primacy.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #85 on: August 11, 2017, 06:52:15 pm »
In the context of scientific studies I think this is worth posting.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/0Rnq1NpHdmw" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/0Rnq1NpHdmw</a>

That's spot on. I loved the bit where a morning talk show host said that "you find the sounds best to you and go with it..."

Oliver's reponse was:  "No!, No!, No!... You don't!... you don't get to cherry pick the parts that justify what you were going to do anyway...  That's religion..."
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #86 on: August 11, 2017, 07:09:36 pm »
Incidentally, we are also the only form of life on the planet who has developed bewilderingly efficient ways of wiping out each other, and much of the rest of the planet's life too. I'm not sure we're qualified to lecture any other animals about morality.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #87 on: August 11, 2017, 10:14:19 pm »
Incidentally, we are also the only form of life on the planet who has developed bewilderingly efficient ways of wiping out each other, and much of the rest of the planet's life too. I'm not sure we're qualified to lecture any other animals about morality.
Not even wasps?
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Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #88 on: August 11, 2017, 11:36:50 pm »
That's spot on. I loved the bit where a morning talk show host said that "you find the sounds best to you and go with it..."

Oliver's reponse was:  "No!, No!, No!... You don't!... you don't get to cherry pick the parts that justify what you were going to do anyway...  That's religion..."

Have you seen his segment on Alex Jones Alan? It's a sad time when someone who considers himself a comedian is burdened with wading through all the bullshit out there. Colbert, Myers and all the rest do a good job but John Oliver is streets above everyone else on TV at the moment.
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Offline Conocinico

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #89 on: August 13, 2017, 02:28:06 am »
"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine."

Penn Jillette

By the way, that's a fantastic quote. That's the magician Penn isn't it?
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Offline vagabond

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #90 on: August 13, 2017, 05:44:50 pm »
This is just an extension of, as most morality is, the so-called Golden Rule, which in itself would appear to be an evolutionary development.  In your example, the lie is compelled by concern for your friends and your empathy/sympathy towards their plight.

This doesn't go against the notion of innate instinct. Humans and other animals have a sense of fairness and a predisposition to cooperate, even when it does them no discernible good.  Is this more likely the result of evolution as social creatures, or a God?

Well firstly, evolution or god as the only two options is a false dichotomy. I've never claimed that god is the source of morality in my posts. I'm only questioning how much evolution can give us.

Also, if you think that all of our moral behavior is merely instinctive too then it is hard to be realist about moral value. If all we have to go on when deciding what is right is just the behavior that randomly worked for our ancestors and happened to survive given our particular evolutionary history then that doesn't strike me as "the right thing to do", it just strikes me as "what we have always done". But of course we do go beyond instinct, we think we can get at absolute moral truths and know for all time that murder is wrong etc etc. This is my issue with the idea that we have an "innate sense of fairness" - how can this be true? We have innate dispositions that help us survive. That is it. There is nothing else unless you think evolution gives rise to moral creatures as an expected outcome rather than being a process that is blind to fairness as fairness and only cares for fairness as fitness-enhancing.
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Offline thejbs

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #91 on: August 14, 2017, 12:56:27 pm »
Well firstly, evolution or god as the only two options is a false dichotomy. I've never claimed that god is the source of morality in my posts. I'm only questioning how much evolution can give us.

Also, if you think that all of our moral behavior is merely instinctive too then it is hard to be realist about moral value. If all we have to go on when deciding what is right is just the behavior that randomly worked for our ancestors and happened to survive given our particular evolutionary history then that doesn't strike me as "the right thing to do", it just strikes me as "what we have always done". But of course we do go beyond instinct, we think we can get at absolute moral truths and know for all time that murder is wrong etc etc. This is my issue with the idea that we have an "innate sense of fairness" - how can this be true? We have innate dispositions that help us survive. That is it. There is nothing else unless you think evolution gives rise to moral creatures as an expected outcome rather than being a process that is blind to fairness as fairness and only cares for fairness as fitness-enhancing.

What are the other options if it's a false dichotomy?  If morality hasn't evolved naturally it surely has to have been divinely inspired.

Our innate dispositions to surviving lay the groundwork for a morality, though.  We have instincts to want to survive, but we also have instincts to be altruistic.  We were able to build on the bedrock of our basic moral instincts through the development of speech and communication.  This allowed us to formalise and refine morality and sociability over thousands of years - something that's still socially evolving - but it can all be traced back to our evolution. The taught morality of nurture stems from instinctive, natural traits.  The very structure of the average human brain has evolved to lay the groundwork for morality and cooperation - changes and differences in brain function can result in disorders where you have reduced empathy or sociability such as autism, schizophrenia and psychopathy. Animals with a higher neocortex ratio (like humans) correlate with more advanced sociability.

Our primate cousins show as good an indication of this as anything (the have a higher-than-most neocortex ratio).  Apes show attachment and bonding, cooperation and mutual aid, sympathy/empathy, reciprocity, altruism, conflict resolution and peacemaking, community concern and caring about what others think about you, and awareness of and response to the social rules of the group. How did this basic functioning morality come about if not through evolution?

Offline electricghost

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #92 on: August 14, 2017, 04:48:01 pm »
What are the other options if it's a false dichotomy?  If morality hasn't evolved naturally it surely has to have been divinely inspired.


The true dichotomy would be natural/not natural if you are wording it this way. The term not natural, or supernatural, is not necessarily equivalent to how a God is typically described. There has also been no demonstration that divinely inspired is even possible.

The evolution part as an explanation for the foundation of our morality as a social species I completely agree with.
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Offline Purple Red

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2017, 06:30:11 pm »
"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine."

Penn Jillette
They get asked that all the time? Really?

Offline Purple Red

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2017, 06:33:36 pm »
I get that, I just find it hard to believe many religious people would come out with that nonsense. And I've met a lot of them.

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2017, 06:58:49 pm »
They get asked that all the time? Really?

It's a magician/comedian, I wouldn't take the quote literally. I imagine he's using exaggeration....

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #96 on: August 14, 2017, 07:01:38 pm »
Well firstly, evolution or god as the only two options is a false dichotomy. I've never claimed that god is the source of morality in my posts. I'm only questioning how much evolution can give us.

Also, if you think that all of our moral behavior is merely instinctive too then it is hard to be realist about moral value. If all we have to go on when deciding what is right is just the behavior that randomly worked for our ancestors and happened to survive given our particular evolutionary history then that doesn't strike me as "the right thing to do", it just strikes me as "what we have always done". But of course we do go beyond instinct, we think we can get at absolute moral truths and know for all time that murder is wrong etc etc. This is my issue with the idea that we have an "innate sense of fairness" - how can this be true? We have innate dispositions that help us survive. That is it. There is nothing else unless you think evolution gives rise to moral creatures as an expected outcome rather than being a process that is blind to fairness as fairness and only cares for fairness as fitness-enhancing.

In the first place evolution doesn't aim towards anything so there is no expected outcome in evolution. 'Fairness' is obviously a trait that selects for survival in a social animal. The complexity of human behaviour is that it is rarely just about nature or nurture but is usually a blend of the two.

A good example is walking and running, which is an innate skill. We don't learn to walk. We are just born prematurely because of our huge brains so we have to be looked after by parents and family until the muscles are strong enough to stand upright and walk. But that basic ability to balance and walk upright can be developed through training to make us run faster or even walk on our hands, walk tightropes etc.

'Fairness' is a basic concept that is widely accepted and understood in all human societies as far as I'm aware. It is then overlaid by society and in groups beyond a simple tribe or family codified as moral or religious laws. That's why 'fairness' in some societies includes slavery and the oppression of women, LGBT people and people of other races. Religious 'morality' can include stoning, slavery, murder, rape, genocide and all the other ridiculous nonsense in Leviticus that are not acceptable (or sane) in a secular society. It's arguable that in the UK and other modern westernised countries, religious morality has been more heavily influenced by secular thinking  than the other way round.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #97 on: August 14, 2017, 07:04:55 pm »
It's a magician/comedian, I wouldn't take the quote literally. I imagine he's using exaggeration....

He's also a well-known atheist and sceptic who talks and writes about morality all the time.

For example:

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/02/opinions/atheists-reason-rally-jillette/index.html

and:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/LZnzWz71jCc?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/LZnzWz71jCc?fs=1</a>

So yes, he gets asked all the time.

Edit: I found this in the comments under the video.

...I was listening to some old Dave Allen specials and he had a brilliant joke about religion . The pope and an atheist were having a debate on if God exists or not . As the debate continued on for hour after hour the pope was getting angrier and angrier and finally said to the atheist , you are like a blindfolded man in a pitch black room looking for a black cat that isn't there . The atheist said well we are almost exactly alike . The pope said what do you mean we are just alike ? The atheist said to the pope , you are like a blindfolded man in a pitch black room looking for a black cat that isn't there , the only difference is you found him...
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 07:09:27 pm by Alan_X »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #98 on: August 14, 2017, 07:15:46 pm »
He's also a well-known atheist and sceptic who talks and writes about morality all the time.

For example:

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/02/opinions/atheists-reason-rally-jillette/index.html

and:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/LZnzWz71jCc?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/LZnzWz71jCc?fs=1</a>

So yes, he gets asked all the time.

Edit: I found this in the comments under the video.

...I was listening to some old Dave Allen specials and he had a brilliant joke about religion . The pope and an atheist were having a debate on if God exists or not . As the debate continued on for hour after hour the pope was getting angrier and angrier and finally said to the atheist , you are like a blindfolded man in a pitch black room looking for a black cat that isn't there . The atheist said well we are almost exactly alike . The pope said what do you mean we are just alike ? The atheist said to the pope , you are like a blindfolded man in a pitch black room looking for a black cat that isn't there , the only difference is you found him...

Fair enough, don't know anything about him.

Love that comment.  ;D

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #99 on: August 14, 2017, 08:37:18 pm »
Fair enough, don't know anything about him.

Love that comment.  ;D

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/RfdZTZQvuCo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/RfdZTZQvuCo</a>

Offline Bob Sacamano

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #100 on: August 14, 2017, 11:08:06 pm »
In the first place evolution doesn't aim towards anything so there is no expected outcome in evolution. 'Fairness' is obviously a trait that selects for survival in a social animal. The complexity of human behaviour is that it is rarely just about nature or nurture but is usually a blend of the two.

A good example is walking and running, which is an innate skill. We don't learn to walk. We are just born prematurely because of our huge brains so we have to be looked after by parents and family until the muscles are strong enough to stand upright and walk. But that basic ability to balance and walk upright can be developed through training to make us run faster or even walk on our hands, walk tightropes etc.

'Fairness' is a basic concept that is widely accepted and understood in all human societies as far as I'm aware. It is then overlaid by society and in groups beyond a simple tribe or family codified as moral or religious laws. That's why 'fairness' in some societies includes slavery and the oppression of women, LGBT people and people of other races. Religious 'morality' can include stoning, slavery, murder, rape, genocide and all the other ridiculous nonsense in Leviticus that are not acceptable (or sane) in a secular society. It's arguable that in the UK and other modern westernised countries, religious morality has been more heavily influenced by secular thinking  than the other way round.


Alan, I don't think any of that addresses vagabond's point which is that nature, in and of itself, does not contain fairness or morality or justice or anything pertaining to notions of right and wrong. Nature simply is. Therefore the human judgement that genocide, for example, is immoral does not carry the weight we think it does. For that judgement is itself a product of nature--nothing more than billions of years of random mutations and environmental pressures which eventually (and by complete accident) led to a series of electrical impulses firing off in the brain of a human to render the proposition "genocide is immoral."

That we now consider genocide to be immoral is an accident of history, not because genocide actually is immoral; for if all those billions of random mutations had played out in a different manner and been subjected to different environmental pressures, then it could well have produced a majority of humans possessing a brain which fire off electrical impulses rendering the proposition that "genocide is in fact moral under certain circumstances", and we would be none the wiser (it has already produced individuals with this predisposition, obviously). Even if one could prove that this were an impossibility (I'm not sure how one could do that), it still would not refute the point that we cannot "judge" a morally neutral nature if we are ourselves the product of that (morally neutral) nature.



** The above assumes that all of nature can (in theory) be entirely explained in material and quantifiable terms, which I of course do not actually believe.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #101 on: August 14, 2017, 11:24:26 pm »
Bob, you need to read about evolutionary stable strategy.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #102 on: August 15, 2017, 10:20:29 am »
In the context of scientific studies I think this is worth posting.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/0Rnq1NpHdmw" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/0Rnq1NpHdmw</a>


What a great program, thanks for sharing !

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #103 on: August 16, 2017, 01:38:43 pm »
Therefore the human judgement that genocide, for example, is immoral does not carry the weight we think it does.

The human judgement that slavery is immoral is directly in opposition to the Bible position on slavery as laid out in Exodus 21. Should we consider altering our position on this and revert back to the ownership of people as property given the superior weight of divine instruction ?
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Offline Bob Sacamano

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #104 on: August 16, 2017, 04:04:19 pm »
The human judgement that slavery is immoral is directly in opposition to the Bible position on slavery as laid out in Exodus 21. Should we consider altering our position on this and revert back to the ownership of people as property given the superior weight of divine instruction ?

You managed to cherry-pick one sentence from a post entirely about morality and its relationship to nature....and use it (out of context) to make a completely unrelated point about slavery in Exodus. Very impressive. And very strange  :D

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #105 on: August 16, 2017, 04:08:40 pm »
The human judgement that slavery is immoral is directly in opposition to the Bible position on slavery as laid out in Exodus 21. Should we consider altering our position on this and revert back to the ownership of people as property given the superior weight of divine instruction ?

Genocide is pretty standard in the Bible as well. It's apparently acceptable to exterminate the entire population of Earth apart from one family and some animals because of sin? You'd think an omnipotent being would be able to sort out sin without having to murder millions of people, animals and birds.

But it is important to remember of course, that it's only God who is allowed to commit mass genocide:

Then I heard God say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.”

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

The second quote is great because it combines genocide and sex slaves. A 'twofer'.
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Re: Atheism
« Reply #106 on: August 16, 2017, 04:44:10 pm »
You managed to cherry-pick one sentence from a post entirely about morality and its relationship to nature....and use it (out of context) to make a completely unrelated point about slavery in Exodus. Very impressive. And very strange  :D

Care to answer the question Bob, there is nothing strange about it.
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Re: Atheism
« Reply #107 on: August 16, 2017, 06:35:03 pm »
In the first place evolution doesn't aim towards anything so there is no expected outcome in evolution. 'Fairness' is obviously a trait that selects for survival in a social animal. The complexity of human behaviour is that it is rarely just about nature or nurture but is usually a blend of the two.

A good example is walking and running, which is an innate skill. We don't learn to walk. We are just born prematurely because of our huge brains so we have to be looked after by parents and family until the muscles are strong enough to stand upright and walk. But that basic ability to balance and walk upright can be developed through training to make us run faster or even walk on our hands, walk tightropes etc.

'Fairness' is a basic concept that is widely accepted and understood in all human societies as far as I'm aware. It is then overlaid by society and in groups beyond a simple tribe or family codified as moral or religious laws. That's why 'fairness' in some societies includes slavery and the oppression of women, LGBT people and people of other races. Religious 'morality' can include stoning, slavery, murder, rape, genocide and all the other ridiculous nonsense in Leviticus that are not acceptable (or sane) in a secular society. It's arguable that in the UK and other modern westernised countries, religious morality has been more heavily influenced by secular thinking  than the other way round.


Walking is a good example. It just so happened that at some point in our evolutionary past our ancestors stopped running on four feet and started using two feet instead. Just like, at some point in the past, a different mammal developed wings, and some other mammal developed fins. All of these adaptions were better suited to their immediate ecological context than other adaptions and therefore were fitness-enhancing. Thus, relative to their context there was a fitness advantage for ancient apes to start walking.

But, having a relative advantage for adopting some behavior, does not make that behavior the objectively right thing to do. It would be absurd to say that it is objectively better to walk than to fly or to swim. The behavior is only advantageous given the relative context of the organism. This applies to every behavior that is developed instinctively (i.e. not learned). So if we have instincts for compassion, altruism, empathy etc etc we developed them only because our ancestors that developed this trait had an advantage over those ancestors that did not develop this trait. (As Corkboy pointed out above, developing compassion, altruism etc were probably evolutionary stable strategies - though, interestingly, our instinctive traits of compassion seem to only include members of our in-group rather than all moral actors, human or otherwise).

The problem however is that having an instinct for compassion, just because it was a relatively successful strategy in our past, is not what most of us mean by morality. Suppose you hear about a murder. You may have an instinctive gut reaction against the act. However, to really call ourselves moral, the gut reaction can't be enough. It cannot be that we oppose murder just because it was advantageous for our ancestors to do so. After all, it was advantageous for our ancestors to walk and not to fly. That doesn't mean it's wrong to fly even if it is not a behavior we adopted. To say that it is wrong to murder we need more than just our historical aversion to it. Instead of thinking to ourselves "murder is wrong because we just didn't evolve to murder", we think "murder is wrong because it is immoral". In other words, our aversion to murder comes from a rule we think applies to ourselves. We don't murder just because it is the wrong thing to do, independently of any instincts we may or may not have with regards to murder.

So the question is, where did these rules come from? And, to go back to the discussion above, do animals think in terms of rules? On the latter question I think it is debatable. Does a chimp avoid murder just because they just happened to evolve an aversion to it or do they avoid murder because they recognise a moral truth? I don't think the latter is all that plausible but may be true. It definitely isn't true once we get further down the evolutionary tree. I would need an incredible amount of evidence to prove that an ant grasps a moral truth when it behaves altruistically - rather than just unconsciously behaving as it has evolved to do, no different to it walking or building a hive, behaviors that carry no moral weight whatsoever. If I want to be a moral actor I have to behave in a way that I think follows whatever moral rules I give myself, not behave in a way that I've evolved to behave without considering the moral weight of my behavior. To do what we have just the instincts to do is not to make a real choice to be moral at all, it is just to behave without consideration. After all, I instinctively am attracted to sugary foods and instinctively laugh when I find something funny and instinctively avoid walking too close to the edge of a cliff. I don't attach any moral weight to these behaviors. However, when I instinctively want to tell the truth, I attach moral weight to this behavior because I recognise that this conforms to a moral rule I want to follow. That is why the instincts we have gained from evolution are not enough to make us moral creatures -what makes us moral is our self-recognition as moral, not the instincts we just happen to have (which are no different to walking, laughing, having a propensity to learn languages etc, behaviors that have no moral weight).

On the former question from above, (where did these rules come from?) there are a couple of options. Either there are real moral facts in the world, i.e. it is an objective fact about our reality that moral truths exist (somehow) and that these moral truths include things like "never torture a child" and somehow our minds can grasp these rules (I take it that Bob Sacamano holds this view). Or else, these rules are mere conventions/ fictions that we have developed because we realise that it is better to behave as if we are moral because it conforms with our instincts and gives us an easy time forming societies. I think Daniel Dennett holds this latter view. Basically, it is an error theory view about morality such that there are no real moral truths out in the world at all, genocide and torture aren't really wrong in the universe outside of human concerns, the universe has no moral nature a all and is indifferent. Some people believe this, other people find it repugnant and want to be moral realists. These people may think there really is something at stake when we talk about what the moral facts in reality are - it is always everywhere wrong to torture children and this fact is part of the fabric of reality and not just a fiction. Giving up moral realism is hard because then we have problems like explaining how or why moral progress happens (such as overcoming slavery). If there are no real moral facts out there in the world, and the universe is indifferent, then slavery isn't really right or wrong, it is just wrong according to the self-imposed rules of the people that oppose it or perfectly acceptable according to the self-imposed rules of the people that support it. In other words, without moral realism we have the issue of how to decide which rules are better.

But, in amongst all of the above, we should separate out the two issues I'm discussing. Whatever you think about the ontological status of moral rules, it is a separate issue from whether evolution can give us those rules. I don't think it can. All evolution can do is instill behaviors in us that are reinforced over generations. To be moral however is not just to behave some way, but to attach moral weight to that behavior. Just doing something out of instinct cannot have moral weight because it is not done for the right reasons. It's not enough to behave in a moral way because we can program our robots to behave in a moral way (see for example self driving cars that are programmed to uphold passenger safety before everything else). But what it takes to be moral is not just the behavior but the self-conscious acceptance of a moral rule (something that a robot cannot do and perhaps only the smartest animals can). Evolution gives us behavior, it doesn't give us a moral compass.
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Re: Atheism
« Reply #108 on: August 17, 2017, 09:29:36 pm »
An absorbing debate.

And thanks for that post Vagabond^^^, very thought provoking.

Can I ask, relating to that very last point: if evolution gives us behaviour, but not a moral compass, what then does give us a moral compass? (assuming we have one).
"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology...as long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth." Mikhail Bakunin

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #109 on: August 17, 2017, 10:13:55 pm »
An absorbing debate.

And thanks for that post Vagabond^^^, very thought provoking.

Can I ask, relating to that very last point: if evolution gives us behaviour, but not a moral compass, what then does give us a moral compass? (assuming we have one).

Well, firstly does a moral compass even exist?

Actually, no, firstly, how do you define moral compass?
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Re: Atheism
« Reply #110 on: August 17, 2017, 10:29:39 pm »
Your moral compass would be your internal mechanism for relating to the morality in which you live; given that morality is a system. You could call it I suppose, your sense of compassion or conscience, although not quite.

There's the old debate on whether morality is relative or absolute. Personally I see morality as something agreed by society; that can be my personal society (my family, social circle, colleagues etc.), but in "actual" society we have things such as law to suggest there is a consensus form of what constitutes "moral" or "immoral", at least as far as we should adhere; although it's important to note being immoral is not synonymous with illegality ;)

Stanford's encyclopedia of Philosophy delineates two definitions of morality:

Quote
1. descriptively to refer to certain codes of conduct put forward by a society or a group (such as a religion), or accepted by an individual for her own behavior, or
2. normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

Both of which seem to suggest there is a consensus element to morality. I do wonder what defines "rationality", though (in the sense if everyone in the defining group was insane, what would rationality be? There have been cannibal societies - are these immoral? Not to themselves, but they still have a consensus morality.)

When people refer to a moral compass, I think of people like sociopaths - who generally, lack compassion or a conscience; technically it's just extreme "antisociality". It does seem to be something that varies (hence not absolute). There is a tendency to simply see those who do not adhere to society as immoral.

Most definitions I've seen do refer to it as a system, and I do understand it myself on those terms - something agreed upon, something interactive. I wonder if someone highly religious would see it otherwise? Some of their morals might come from a different, more absolute place (to them).

One thing I've always put forward in discussions with those with a religious viewpoint: atheism is not inherently immoral, we can be good people without God and his laws.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 10:57:09 pm by ToneLa »

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #111 on: August 17, 2017, 11:19:07 pm »
Well, firstly does a moral compass even exist?

Actually, no, firstly, how do you define moral compass?

But it was you who made reference to the term. So what did YOU mean by the term?


"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology...as long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth." Mikhail Bakunin

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #112 on: August 18, 2017, 01:01:26 pm »
A really good video on morality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAQFYgyEACI
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Re: Atheism
« Reply #113 on: August 18, 2017, 03:47:39 pm »
But it was you who made reference to the term. So what did YOU mean by the term?




Oh, I see. I thought I made my position clear: a moral compass is a set of normative rules that we choose to follow because we think those rules have inherent moral weight. How we measure moral weight is of course a big debate which I don't is directly relevant to this current discussion (if you're interested look into debates between consequentialism and deontological virtue theories). ToneLa posted the definition from Stanford and I guess my view would fall into the second category.

Where does this compass come from? As I posted above I think you can go one of two ways. You can either be realist or anti-realist. In other words, our set of rules tracks some objective facts about the world or else our set of rules is just a fiction we maintain because it helps us to form societies (or whatever other survival metric we want to use). The problem with the former is that moral facts are normative. They seem to be the wrong kind of thing to be part of the fabric of reality. Whenever we eventually end up completing the taxonomy of basic natural properties centuries from now, we don't expect to find moral properties in there. In other words, natural facts are all descriptive, they carry no value. The mass of a proton isn't good or bad, it doesn't have value, that's the wrong kind of question to ask of a natural phenomenon. But somebody being murdered does carry value and if we are realist we want to explain this with reference to some objective fact about reality. Is this an emergent property of the universe? IF we combine enough descriptive stuff, does a normative rule fall out? Do enough protons added together become a good or a bad thing?

As you can see, this is a tough argument to make and so, unsurprisingly, most philosophers and scientists are moral anti-realists. On this view there are no moral facts in the world itself, there are only agreed upon moral conventions between ourselves. These rules are a fiction we choose to believe in because it makes life easier for us (and we can't deal with the existential crisis that having to come to terms with an indifferent universe usually generates). The problem however with this option is that it makes disputes between cultures difficult to adjudicate. If culture A cuts off hands for thievery and culture B sends thieves to social responsibility classes, how do we decide which culture is taking the moral option? You will want to make reference to some objective fact that one is upholding and the other is transgressing. But, as we saw above, it's hard to know what those objective facts could be. Do we refer to some metric of happiness (or dopamine) across the population? That seems like a natural property. But what makes happiness normative? Sometimes doing the right thing makes us extremely unhappy but we do it anyway. So, as you can see, it becomes very difficult to appeal to some shared fact when we are anti-realist. But this seems to lead to an abhorrent relativism. So neither option for where a moral compass comes from seems to be all that appealing. No wonder ethics is the oldest debate in the world...
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 03:51:51 pm by vagabond »
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Re: Atheism
« Reply #114 on: August 18, 2017, 04:55:57 pm »
One thing I've always put forward in discussions with those with a religious viewpoint: atheism is not inherently immoral, we can be good people without God and his laws.

Great post. On the part I've just quoted, I agree that atheists are perfectly capable of being good people without having religious beliefs. I sometimes wonder though if their 'morality' is the legacy of centuries of their ancestors probably adhering to the main moral authorities of the times which were the churches? Perhaps they are espousing moral beliefs which were passed down by generations that had them reinforced by the churches. I'm not necessarily saying they needed the churches to have these viewpoints but rather how they conceptualise them is in many ways very similar to what the churches have taught. For example, it isn't necessary to be married to have children but many atheists still like to get married before they start a family. Not because it would be moral not to do so, but because there is something within them that tells them this is the way they'd prefer it to be. It's an interesting topic.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #115 on: August 18, 2017, 05:38:14 pm »
Great post. On the part I've just quoted, I agree that atheists are perfectly capable of being good people without having religious beliefs. I sometimes wonder though if their 'morality' is the legacy of centuries of their ancestors probably adhering to the main moral authorities of the times which were the churches? Perhaps they are espousing moral beliefs which were passed down by generations that had them reinforced by the churches. I'm not necessarily saying they needed the churches to have these viewpoints but rather how they conceptualise them is in many ways very similar to what the churches have taught. For example, it isn't necessary to be married to have children but many atheists still like to get married before they start a family. Not because it would be moral not to do so, but because there is something within them that tells them this is the way they'd prefer it to be. It's an interesting topic.


Why do you keep mentioning churches? Apart from the fact that Christianity is only one of a group of monotheistic religions, adn monotheistic religious models are relatively rare in human history, there is a general concensus that humans developed behavioural modernity about 40,000 years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_modernity#Great_leap_forward

Humans have been living in social groups, pair-bonding, sharing the upbringing of children, marking rites of passage (birth, puberty, weddings, death), creating art and myths for tens of thousands of years, long before churches.

If churches were responsible for marriage then why do all other cultures have marriage as part of their culture? In Australia the indigenous people had marriage long before the white Christian settlers turned up.

Marriage was a central feature of traditional Aboriginal societies. The need to maintain populations and thereby to ensure that there was always someone to attend sites and keep up traditions was matched by the desire to ensure that children were produced according to the right family groups and the correct affiliations.

For these purposes freedom of marriage was restricted by the prohibitions against the marriage of certain close relatives and by the rule of exogamy, that is, marrying outside one’s group. An important factor in determining the parties to a marriage was the balancing of kinship obligations, including reciprocal obligations between individuals, families or larger groups.

The interests of the parties, and their attraction or affection for each other, were considered subsidiary to these obligations. The creation of marriage alliances and the obligations that this involved were closely linked with relationships to the land.

Spiritual affiliation with land included a series of ritual obligations and duties often acquired through inheritance in either the male or female line, or both. And marriage was a primary means for maintaining attachment to land.


http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/12.%20Aboriginal%20Marriages%20and%20Family%20Structures/marriage-traditional-aboriginal-societies

It's one source but I could find many more from cultures around the world and throughout history.

The Christian view of atheism is actually quite strange. The number of religions and Gods that a Chritian and an atheist don't believe in is almost exactly the same.

I don't believe in hundreds or thousands of Gods and religions across the world and throughout history. A Christian also doesn't believe in the same thousands of Gods and religions apart from one. And for some reason the one God they believe in seems somehow to be based on where they were born.

It's almost as if religion and God is cultural rather than real.
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Re: Atheism
« Reply #116 on: August 18, 2017, 05:47:57 pm »
Thanks Vagabond, for the time and effort you put into your reply.

Yes, ethics is arguably the most contentious element of philosophy, made even more so by the growing tension between an increasingly sectarian population in western democracies, and increased fundamentalism in the east, in Africa and the USA. That tension creates issues for lawmakers too, and will continue to do so.

Note I make no distinction between Christian fundamentalism and extreme forms of Islam. Religion as a vehicle for a collection of moral teachings and rules, has a long history. The increase in education, and the subsequent questioning of how individual freedoms are disadvantaged by those teachings and rules, will continue to create questions of them.

I like this passage from AC Grayling's "What is good":

"Many practices of religion and government throughout the ages have depended pivotally on an understanding of how to manipulate human beings, by identifying and inflaming their baser instincts, chiefly those of greed and fear: greed for wealth, position and honours; fear of death, hell and punishment. But a less self-serving enquiry into the human condition, one that has at its aim the identification of what would give humans their best chance of living satisfying, creative, generous lives characterised by pleasure and wisdom, would seek rather to grasp the necessary conditions for this possibility."

Grayling goes on to compare humanist ethics with religious ethics: "Given that the metaphysics of religion is man-made, and that human psychology is the source of belief in the power of transcendent authority to reward obedience or punish its opposite ('sin', one must remember, explicitly means disobedience), it follows that the chief motivation for religious ethics is the need for potentates of many kinds to exert control over individuals, to limit their freedom, to make them conform, obey, submit, follow where led, accept what is meted out to them, and resign themselves to their lot.

It takes no special insight to see how powerful an instrument of social management this is..."


So, education is the key. Giving people the tools to think for themselves will result, inevitably, in a questioning of the status quo. Hence the growth of atheism.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 06:16:48 pm by Robinred »
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Re: Atheism
« Reply #117 on: August 18, 2017, 05:48:53 pm »
I shouldn't have used the word 'churches' I was referring more to religious feeling and spirituality in general. You're absolutely right that things like marriage predate a lot of monotheistic religions. It's just not out of the question that a lot of modern moral concepts are a hangover from more religious times. Even if they existed beforehand, many of them have been 'codified' so to speak by the various religions out there.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #118 on: August 18, 2017, 08:06:45 pm »
You have it backwards. People formed morals. Religions adopted them.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #119 on: August 18, 2017, 09:01:33 pm »
Maybe, but one idea in particular we owe to a religion. In western culture, the idea that every single person has dignity and moral worth, independently of their deeds, was a Christian idea. Before Christianity, we had the Greek idea that dignity belonged to the strong, the beautiful and the wise. Having dignity just for being a person was a revolutionary idea. Just open any essay of Cicero's and you'll see how he laments that the mob "those that lack dignitas" have to be appeased by the nobles "those that have dignitas". Of course today it is part of our fundamental beliefs that all persons have dignity, indeed the universal charter of human rights is considered a landmark document because it codifies what was once only a Christian idea.
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
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because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
---Rilke