Author Topic: Atheism  (Read 182965 times)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2017, 05:01:47 pm »
In a nutshell, yes. That conclusion is the worst possible one for theists, really.

I'm actually surprised that there's no religion topic on RAWK.  Surely it could be debated civilly or am I being way to optimistic?

It's called the Richard Dawkins thread at the moment. There have been many religion threads in the past but for some reason they seem to get a little err... spikey?
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2017, 05:03:33 pm »
We usually tend to agree on these sorts of things Alan, but it seems you've got your defences up against this paper as if it were like some of the nonsense conspiracy theory/fundamentalist shite we encounter on here, rather than a methodologically rigorous and standard scientific paper.

The sponsors of the study didn't write the headline, the BBC did. If the study authors did in fact write the headline, and it was simply lifted from the press release, the BBC was still welcome to change it to make it nicer.

I'm not sure it's quite the cynical conspiracy you make out; that it's to encourage people to discuss atheists immorality and embed that further in societal perceptions. Don't get me wrong, I'm inclined to distrust foundations like this too. I just don't think they biased it, nor that this was necessarily the finding they wanted - I just don't see how one result is more favourable that the other. It's just a nice cross sectional insight of perception.

Don't see any problem with that para from the discussion you've quoted, especially since it's from the evidence base and widely sourced. Remember it's the scientists writing it, and Nature peer reviewing it. Not the sponsors. Plus it volunteers a positive view on secularism (with evidence).
 

Don't use this example if you ever find yourself in an interview for a subeditor job! :)

Have a look at this:

http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/category/flat-earth-news/bad-pr/
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2017, 05:22:31 pm »
Have a look at this:

http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/category/flat-earth-news/bad-pr/

As I said, I'm a skeptic.

But ironically enough, speaking as a scientist with methodological experience of qualitative and quantitative studies, your suggested headline is actually more inaccurate.

Scientific studies show that morality is independent of religion, secular societies are among the most stable and cooperative, but prejudice and bias hide the reality...

This is more stretching than the original one, and hiding behind far more PR. This isn't what the experiment set out to measure, so to come up with this headline after the fact - fitted around the results retroactively - is more or less cherry picking.

That's not to say that the assertion is ultimately wrong, just that you can't say that from this study (and if you did there might be suspicions you worked for an avocado retailer in a secular society)

Offline DivisiveNewSigning

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2017, 05:25:33 pm »
Well given you've got the conclusion wrong, it seems a reasonable endeavour. It's far less flawed than your quick take on it

It wasn't just religious people who considered atheists to be less moral. Atheists did too.

Oh... I was referring to my own statement, not the experiment. Awkward.

I'm going to conduct my own experiment. It's going to study whether people perceive argumentative RAWK posters to be religious or atheist. Religious people are like vegans, always trying to get others to agree with them. Can't remember the last time I saw a meat-eater since and dance about steak trying to get everyone they meet to try it.


Offline thejbs

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2017, 05:28:18 pm »
RAWK by religion would probably find most of the cantankerous atheists festering in the News and Current affairs section. 

I don't have the predisposition of faith required to spend too long in the Transfers forum.

Offline thejbs

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2017, 05:31:03 pm »
It's called the Richard Dawkins thread at the moment. There have been many religion threads in the past but for some reason they seem to get a little err... spikey?

ha! Spikey is good! 

Offline classycarra

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2017, 05:31:53 pm »
Oh... I was referring to my own statement, not the experiment. Awkward.


BREAKING NEWS

Religious people think atheists are immoral heathens.
Atheists think religious people are backwards nut-jobs.

The difference is, however, that whenever something bad happens religious people assume they must be a non-believer because, crikey, a person of faith would NEVER do anything bad. Atheists generally know c*nts are c*nts, no matter what their personal beliefs.

Did we really need a significantly flawed experiment for us to get to this conclusion?

Course you weren't mate  ;D  Awkward!

Offline DivisiveNewSigning

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2017, 06:02:46 pm »
 :butt

Offline Bob Sacamano

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2017, 08:21:28 pm »
Many atheists are bad, immoral people. Many are good, morally upstanding people.

Many "religious"people are bad, immoral people. Many are good, morally upstanding people.

I think that's all that really needs to be said

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2017, 08:25:39 pm »
Many atheists are bad, immoral people. Many are good, morally upstanding people.

Many "religious"people are bad, immoral people. Many are good, morally upstanding people.

I think that's all that really needs to be said

I agree completely. It's a shame a religious foundation decided to fund a study designed to create headlines implying atheists are immoral.
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2017, 08:26:28 pm »
I agree completely. It's a shame a religious foundation decided to fund a study designed to create headlines implying atheists are immoral.

Well to be fair there's too many studies that find people who follow religion can be immoral, and by studies I mean everyday life.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2017, 09:17:57 pm »
Many atheists are bad, immoral people. Many are good, morally upstanding people.

Many "religious"people are bad, immoral people. Many are good, morally upstanding people.

I think that's all that really needs to be said

Hi, Bob.

Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2017, 09:23:59 pm »
Although I try not to show it, I always have a mistrust of people I meet/work with/know of, who are religious. They also seem to be masters of hypocrisy.
And in short, I was afraid

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2017, 09:25:14 pm »
Although I try not to show it, I always have a mistrust of people I meet/work with/know of, who are religious. They also seem to be masters of hypocrisy.
Definite difference between those who are 'religious' and those who follow a religion.  Those who are 'religious' don't let you forget it.
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2017, 09:39:20 pm »
Definite difference between those who are 'religious' and those who follow a religion.  Those who are 'religious' don't let you forget it.

That's true I suppose, all hypocrites though. A few months back, two little old Jehovah dears knocked on our door and my eyes lit up. In all my years I'd never had this opportunity. I had them there a good 40 mins and they were practically begging to go in the end. The missus told me the following week they'd sent the top man round (no, not him) but I was at the match and I missed him. Gutted.

See, they genuinely were nice ladies for all intents and purposes, but honestly it didn't take much to reveal a quite disturbing, narrow minded, bigoted midset, ticking away behind the mask. They just didn't seem to be aware of the contradictions they preached and appear to live by. I don't trust em I tell ya!
And in short, I was afraid

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2017, 09:39:59 pm »
That's true I suppose, all hypocrites though. A few months back, two little old Jehovah dears knocked on our door and my eyes lit up. In all my years I'd never had this opportunity. I had them there a good 40 mins and they were practically begging to go in the end. The missus told me the following week they'd sent the top man round (no, not him) but I was at the match and I missed him. Gutted.

See, they genuinely were nice ladies for all intents and purposes, but honestly it didn't take much to reveal a quite disturbing, narrow minded, bigoted midset, ticking away behind the mask. They just didn't seem to be aware of the contradictions they preached and appear to live by. I don't trust em I tell ya!
:lmao
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline vagabond

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2017, 09:44:10 pm »
That's true I suppose, all hypocrites though. A few months back, two little old Jehovah dears knocked on our door and my eyes lit up. In all my years I'd never had this opportunity. I had them there a good 40 mins and they were practically begging to go in the end. The missus told me the following week they'd sent the top man round (no, not him) but I was at the match and I missed him. Gutted.

See, they genuinely were nice ladies for all intents and purposes, but honestly it didn't take much to reveal a quite disturbing, narrow minded, bigoted midset, ticking away behind the mask. They just didn't seem to be aware of the contradictions they preached and appear to live by. I don't trust em I tell ya!

Sounds pretty bigoted to treat all religious people as untrustworthy...
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Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2017, 09:58:38 pm »
Sounds pretty bigoted to treat all religious people as untrustworthy...

I wouldn't say it was bigoted. And I didn't say they were all untrustworthy, just that I didn't trust them.
And in short, I was afraid

Offline vagabond

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2017, 10:01:37 pm »
I wouldn't say it was bigoted. And I didn't say they were all untrustworthy, just that I didn't trust them.

Similarly, I didn't say you called them untrustworthy, I said you treated them all as untrustworthy, which is the same as you not trusting them. You did call them all hypocrites though. A remarkable amount of knowledge about millions of people. How did you know?
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Offline Antoine Lavoisier

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2017, 10:17:20 pm »
Similarly, I didn't say you called them untrustworthy, I said you treated them all as untrustworthy, which is the same as you not trusting them. You did call them all hypocrites though. A remarkable amount of knowledge about millions of people. How did you know?

It may be splitting hairs to you, but those things are not the same.

Ok it was lazy of me, I apologise to anyone offended, not ALL religious types are hypocrites, as I don't know them all so I'm in no position to say that with any degree of certainty.

They are though  :-X
And in short, I was afraid

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2017, 10:25:47 pm »
What proportion of the U.K. population identify themselves as atheist? As opposed to those who aren't arsed?

Offline classycarra

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #61 on: August 10, 2017, 10:28:50 pm »
I agree completely. It's a shame a religious foundation decided to fund a study designed to create headlines implying atheists are immoral.

A shame? Really?

The authors have advanced academic research that has revealed some interesting results that are worthy of further study. What's so wrong with that? Calling it a shame is just revealing your bias, and dislike for the results.

I really don't think you're exactly understanding what this study is measuring and what it shows. It's just measuring societal perceptions. This is like calling a political poll that doesn't match your expectations being published a shame.

Do you not find it interesting that there is a chance that even atheists may have some lingering preconceptions about the morality of atheists, potentially as a hangover from our less secular days? And as a fellow atheist, do you genuinely find it so upsetting that an academic has conducted this survey? Seems very odd to me

Offline Bob Sacamano

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2017, 10:41:37 pm »

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2017, 11:09:58 pm »
..... A few months back, two little old Jehovah dears knocked on our door

My pet JW's call reasonably regularly, about every 4 to 6 weeks or so.

I'm always very reasonable with them, after all, I feel that anyone the Nazis persecuted must have been doing something right.

Since I'm never rude to them, and they know I was bought up as a Catholic yet am now an atheist so I think they see me as a challenge, someone to practice their rhetoric with, almost a role playing opportunity for them to rehearse their arguments with others without being told to just fuck off will you! which I would hazard a guess is probably a very common occurence with most places they visit.

Their visit last week lasted around 40 minutes, I ended up reading their pre-prepared Bible passages for them (the guy had forgotten his reading glasses) and then providing them with a critique on their interpretation.

It's good fun, provided you don't have a hangover...
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #64 on: August 11, 2017, 12:56:38 am »
A shame? Really?

The authors have advanced academic research that has revealed some interesting results that are worthy of further study. What's so wrong with that? Calling it a shame is just revealing your bias, and dislike for the results.

I really don't think you're exactly understanding what this study is measuring and what it shows. It's just measuring societal perceptions. This is like calling a political poll that doesn't match your expectations being published a shame.

Do you not find it interesting that there is a chance that even atheists may have some lingering preconceptions about the morality of atheists, potentially as a hangover from our less secular days? And as a fellow atheist, do you genuinely find it so upsetting that an academic has conducted this survey? Seems very odd to me

I think it's thrown up some interesting data as a side effect and someone who understands what it actually says will get some benefit from it.

But the fundamental purpose of the study is to produce headlines that suggest to the uninformed that atheists are immoral.

There is something mildly interesting about atheists possibly still having a cultural hangover that conditions their view but as I said, I'd need to read the study. And without a companion study that shows whether atheists are more or less moral (whatever that means) than religious people it's largely irrelevant what anyone's perception is. Are the Templeton Foundation going to fund educational programmes to counter the misconception that atheists are less moral?

Did you watch the video I linked to?
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Offline thejbs

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #65 on: August 11, 2017, 01:13:25 am »
I agree completely. It's a shame a religious foundation decided to fund a study designed to create headlines implying atheists are immoral.

My social media feeds show that people (theist and atheist) are viewing it differently - that the study points to unfair discrimination and profiling of people based on their lack of belief in a deity.  That's how I took it as well.

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2017, 05:34:37 am »
Definite difference between those who are 'religious' and those who follow a religion. Those who are 'religious' don't let you forget it.

I'm not sure I follow the second half. Could you elaborate?

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2017, 07:47:35 am »
I agree completely. It's a shame a religious foundation decided to fund a study designed to create headlines implying atheists are immoral.

It is a study to test preconceived intuitive prejudices not a study on whether atheists are immoral.

How would they know the results beforehand and how would they influence the headlines stemming from it?

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #68 on: August 11, 2017, 07:54:13 am »
Morality and religion are not mutually exclusive.

Being moral, on the one hand, reflects of your upbringing. Religious beliefs, on the other hand, is what you learn from books and scriptures.

Offline thejbs

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #69 on: August 11, 2017, 09:41:08 am »
Morality and religion are not mutually exclusive.

Being moral, on the one hand, reflects of your upbringing. Religious beliefs, on the other hand, is what you learn from books and scriptures.

Not necessarily.  There's a lot of research on innate moral values, or morality as a product of evolution, and growing evidence is countering the 'blank slate' view of morality. I think moral values are a product of nature and then rounded off and refined by nurture.

There's a morality conundrum with religions, I've always felt, when it comes to innateness of morals.  On one hand they teach that God separated us from the animals by giving us altruism, empathy, compassion etc... but on the other hand, we're told you need to be a Christian to be moral.  Neither of those is true - primates show signs of what Christians might call divinely inspired morality.


Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #70 on: August 11, 2017, 10:06:01 am »
snip

From what I remember, morality is the ability to distinguish between "whats right" and "whats wrong" based on intentions, actions, decisions and thoughts. Religion, in the 1800s, played a very important role in determining this by drawing boundaries within which humans were expected to constrain themselves. In modern era, we are still governed by the boundaries. But the boundaries are not drawn by religion alone. It is drawn by, to name a few, philosophy, culture, virtues and beliefs.

Saying non-religious/atheist people tend to be more immoral, contradicts this long standing definition of boundaries that are drawn by the other circles of life.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #71 on: August 11, 2017, 10:13:25 am »
"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine."

Penn Jillette

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #72 on: August 11, 2017, 10:41:10 am »
Neither of those is true - primates show signs of what Christians might call divinely inspired morality.

Many, many different animals have morality.

Offline vagabond

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #73 on: August 11, 2017, 01:25:56 pm »
Not necessarily.  There's a lot of research on innate moral values, or morality as a product of evolution, and growing evidence is countering the 'blank slate' view of morality. I think moral values are a product of nature and then rounded off and refined by nurture.


There is a lot of tension between a naturalistic/ evolutionary genealogy of our behavior and the sort of robust morality we we think defines the boundary between good and bad. For one thing, why should it matter if a behavior is evolved or novel when discussing its morality? Is a colony of cooperating bees moral or merely expedient? Is the bald eagle that hatches before its sibling and eats the sibling when food is scarce immoral or merely expedient? We want more than just built-in, expedient instincts when we want to say that there is a real difference between good and bad. We want there to be an actual choice available to us. I'm not sure any animal (except perhaps the closest of primates) is capable of real choice that takes as its basis morality and not expediency or instinct.
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
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because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #74 on: August 11, 2017, 02:08:50 pm »
WOLVES
Wolves live in tight-knit social groups that are regulated by strict rules. If a pack grows too large, members are not able to bond closely enough and the pack disintegrates. Wolves also demonstrate fairness.
During play, dominant wolves will "handicap" themselves by engaging in roll reversal with lower ranking wolves, showing submission and allowing them to bite, provided it is not too hard.
Prof Bekoff argues that without a moral code governing their actions, this kind of behaviour would not be possible. If an animal bites too hard, it will initiate a "play bow" to ask forgiveness before play resumes.

COYOTES
In other members of the dog family, play is controlled by similar rules. Among coyotes, cubs which bite too hard are ostracised by the rest of the group and often end up having to leave entirely.
"We looked at the mortality of these young animals who disperse from the group and they have four to five times higher mortality," said Bekoff.
Experiments with domestic dogs, where one animal was given a treat and another denied, have shown that they posses a sense of fairness as they shared their treats.

ELEPHANTS
Elephants are intensely sociable and emotional animals. Research by Iain Douglas Hamilton, from the department of zoology at Oxford University, suggests elephants experience compassion and has found evidence of elephants helping injured or ill members of their herd.
In one case, a Matriarch known as Eleanor fell ill and a female in the herd gently tried to help Eleanor back to her feet, staying with her before she died.
In 2003, a herd of 11 elephants rescued antelope who were being held inside an enclosure in KwaZula-Natal, South Africa.
The matriarch unfastened all of the metal latches holding the gates closed and swung the entrance open allowing the antelope to escape.
This is thought to be a rare example of animals showing empathy for members of another species – a trait previously thought to be the exclusive preserve of mankind.

DIANA MONKEYS
A laboratory experiment trained Diana monkeys to insert a token into a slot to obtain food.
A male who had grown to be adept at the task was found to be helping the oldest female who had not been able to learn how to insert the token.
On three occasion the male monkey picked up tokens she dropped and inserted them into the slot and allowed her to have the food.
As there was no benefit for the male monkey, Prof Bekoff argues that this is a clear example of an animal's actions being driven by some internal moral compass.

CHIMPANZEES
Known to be among the most cognitively advanced of the great apes and our closest cousin, it is perhaps not surprising that scientists should suggest they live by moral codes.
A chimpanzee known as Knuckles – from the Centre for Great Apes in Florida – is the only known captive chimpanzee to suffer from cerebral palsy, which leaves him physically and mentally handicapped.
Scientists have found that other chimpanzees in his group treat him differently and he is rarely subjected to intimidating displays of aggression from older males.
Chimpanzees also demonstrate a sense of justice and those who deviate from the code of conduct of a group are set upon by other members as punishment.

RODENTS
Experiments with rats have shown that they will not take food if they know their actions will cause pain to another rat. In lab tests, rats were given food which then caused a second group of rats to receive an electric shock.
The rats with the food stopped eating rather than see another rat receive a shock. Similarly, mice react more strongly to pain when they have seen another mouse in pain.
Recent research from Switzerland also showed that rats will help a rat, to which it is not related, to obtain food if they themselves have benefited from the charity of others. This reciprocity was thought to be restricted to primates.

BATS
Vampire bats need to drink blood every night but it is common for some not to find any food. Those who are successful in foraging for blood will share their meal with bats who are not successful.
They are more likely to share with bats who had previously shared with them. Prof Bekoff believes this reciprocity is a result of a sense of affiliation that binds groups of animals together.
Some studies have shown that animals experience hormonal changes that lead them to "crave" social interaction.
Biologists have also observed a female Rodrigues fruit-eating bat in Gainesville, Florida, helping another female to give birth by showing the pregnant female the correct birthing position – with head up and feed down.

WHALES
Whales have been found to have spindle cells in their brains. These very large and specialised cells were thought to be restricted to humans and other great apes and appear to play a role in empathy and understanding the feelings of others.
Humpback whales, fin whales, killer whales and sperm whales have all been found to have spindle cells in the same areas of their brains.
They also have three times as many spindle cells compared to humans and are thought to be older in evolutionary terms.
This finding has suggested that complex emotional judgements such as empathy may have evolved considerably earlier in history than previously thought and could be widespread in the animal kingdom.

source

Offline vagabond

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #75 on: August 11, 2017, 04:32:42 pm »

source

Of course animals can be sympathetic, empathetic, compassionate, cooperative, etc etc. Nobody is denying that. The question is does it count as morality?
Of course it's hard to come to some agreement on what counts as moral behavior. To my mind there must be some real deliberation between real choices and the deciding factor should be some independent criterion of value. In other words, it can't be that I decide to do X instead of Y because I have some instinctive disposition to behave that way. These examples of animals all seem to be instinctive dispositions - innate behaviors that have been reinforced over generations because they enhance fitness. But, as should be clear, the instincts all animals have are arbitrary with regards to moral value. The only condition upon an instinct developing is its affect on fitness. The other problem than the arbitrariness is being able to go against instincts. Suppose you think it is immoral to lie but a nazi knocks on your door and asks if you are hiding any jews, I imagine most people in this situation would go against their instincts to speak the truth and lie so that the nazis can't get to their friends.

I guess, really, the problem I see is not even that animals can't be moral. Perhaps it is true that elephants or chimps can really deliberate and choose a behavior that is actually good and not just what they instinctively would do. Perhaps even they can have long discussions among themselves on when it is moral to lie or what the morality of murder is. Instead, the problem I see is that if some behavior is moral then the morality of that behavior cannot be explained through some appeal to naturally evolved instincts - instincts are arbitrary and can only ever be coincidentally moral to an outside observer and never to the animal itself engaging in that behavior. For the animal to be moral, it must know better what to do and that knowing can't be something innate.
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
and walks outdoors, and keeps on walking,
because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
---Rilke

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #76 on: August 11, 2017, 04:40:42 pm »
But, as should be clear, the instincts all animals have are arbitrary with regards to moral value.

That is not clear, no, and you haven't offered any support for why you think it might be. It might suit you to arbitrarily describe animal choices as "instinctive" or "innate" but again, you haven't shown how that is so, or even what those terms mean.

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #77 on: August 11, 2017, 04:43:25 pm »
WOLVES
Wolves live in tight-knit social groups that are regulated by strict rules. If a pack grows too large, members are not able to bond closely enough and the pack disintegrates. Wolves also demonstrate fairness.
During play, dominant wolves will "handicap" themselves by engaging in roll reversal with lower ranking wolves, showing submission and allowing them to bite, provided it is not too hard.
Prof Bekoff argues that without a moral code governing their actions, this kind of behaviour would not be possible. If an animal bites too hard, it will initiate a "play bow" to ask forgiveness before play resumes.

COYOTES
In other members of the dog family, play is controlled by similar rules. Among coyotes, cubs which bite too hard are ostracised by the rest of the group and often end up having to leave entirely.
"We looked at the mortality of these young animals who disperse from the group and they have four to five times higher mortality," said Bekoff.
Experiments with domestic dogs, where one animal was given a treat and another denied, have shown that they posses a sense of fairness as they shared their treats.

ELEPHANTS
Elephants are intensely sociable and emotional animals. Research by Iain Douglas Hamilton, from the department of zoology at Oxford University, suggests elephants experience compassion and has found evidence of elephants helping injured or ill members of their herd.
In one case, a Matriarch known as Eleanor fell ill and a female in the herd gently tried to help Eleanor back to her feet, staying with her before she died.
In 2003, a herd of 11 elephants rescued antelope who were being held inside an enclosure in KwaZula-Natal, South Africa.
The matriarch unfastened all of the metal latches holding the gates closed and swung the entrance open allowing the antelope to escape.
This is thought to be a rare example of animals showing empathy for members of another species – a trait previously thought to be the exclusive preserve of mankind.

DIANA MONKEYS
A laboratory experiment trained Diana monkeys to insert a token into a slot to obtain food.
A male who had grown to be adept at the task was found to be helping the oldest female who had not been able to learn how to insert the token.
On three occasion the male monkey picked up tokens she dropped and inserted them into the slot and allowed her to have the food.
As there was no benefit for the male monkey, Prof Bekoff argues that this is a clear example of an animal's actions being driven by some internal moral compass.

CHIMPANZEES
Known to be among the most cognitively advanced of the great apes and our closest cousin, it is perhaps not surprising that scientists should suggest they live by moral codes.
A chimpanzee known as Knuckles – from the Centre for Great Apes in Florida – is the only known captive chimpanzee to suffer from cerebral palsy, which leaves him physically and mentally handicapped.
Scientists have found that other chimpanzees in his group treat him differently and he is rarely subjected to intimidating displays of aggression from older males.
Chimpanzees also demonstrate a sense of justice and those who deviate from the code of conduct of a group are set upon by other members as punishment.

RODENTS
Experiments with rats have shown that they will not take food if they know their actions will cause pain to another rat. In lab tests, rats were given food which then caused a second group of rats to receive an electric shock.
The rats with the food stopped eating rather than see another rat receive a shock. Similarly, mice react more strongly to pain when they have seen another mouse in pain.
Recent research from Switzerland also showed that rats will help a rat, to which it is not related, to obtain food if they themselves have benefited from the charity of others. This reciprocity was thought to be restricted to primates.

BATS
Vampire bats need to drink blood every night but it is common for some not to find any food. Those who are successful in foraging for blood will share their meal with bats who are not successful.
They are more likely to share with bats who had previously shared with them. Prof Bekoff believes this reciprocity is a result of a sense of affiliation that binds groups of animals together.
Some studies have shown that animals experience hormonal changes that lead them to "crave" social interaction.
Biologists have also observed a female Rodrigues fruit-eating bat in Gainesville, Florida, helping another female to give birth by showing the pregnant female the correct birthing position – with head up and feed down.

WHALES
Whales have been found to have spindle cells in their brains. These very large and specialised cells were thought to be restricted to humans and other great apes and appear to play a role in empathy and understanding the feelings of others.
Humpback whales, fin whales, killer whales and sperm whales have all been found to have spindle cells in the same areas of their brains.
They also have three times as many spindle cells compared to humans and are thought to be older in evolutionary terms.
This finding has suggested that complex emotional judgements such as empathy may have evolved considerably earlier in history than previously thought and could be widespread in the animal kingdom.

source
Elephants? Surely that's because they follow Ganesha?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline vagabond

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #78 on: August 11, 2017, 05:02:10 pm »
That is not clear, no, and you haven't offered any support for why you think it might be. It might suit you to arbitrarily describe animal choices as "instinctive" or "innate" but again, you haven't shown how that is so, or even what those terms mean.

Apologies if I'm being unclear. What I am saying is that if we think that the source of behavior for an animal is innate or instinctive then this would underdetermine what we take to be robust moral behavior. Now you may think that an animal is behaving morally independently of their instincts which may be fair enough (but perhaps needs more evidence). But I was replying originally to thejbs who said that "There's a lot of research on innate moral values, or morality as a product of evolution". So, the claim I was querying is whether instincts are enough of a foundation out of which robust moral codes can actually develop.

I think it is problematic to think that morality can develop purely out of instinctive behaviour because, as I said above, an instinct is a behavior reinforced over generations given its fitness-enhancing effects. For example, a hunting dog instinctively chases a rabbit if it sees one, it doesn't have to be told to do so. Or, a bird instinctively sings the song of its species to invite mates, so on and so forth. So, given how instincts develop, our instincts are not our own choice. You may disagree but this doesn't seem very moral to me. I don't want everyone in the world to avoid murdering because they have an instinct to not do it, I want everyone to avoid murdering because it is the right thing to do. Having an instinct is immaterial to what is the right thing to do. So if some animal behaves in some way that we think is moral, are they doing it because they are innately disposed to behave that way or are they behaving that way because they recognise that it is the right thing to do? If you think it is an instinct, as thejbs says, then you need to show why animals would evolve towards having moral behavior. Evolution is blind. It doesn't have any ends in mind. It is purely an accident, always, that any behavior gets reinforced. Or you might just think that animals can think through options and pick the right thing to do and this choice has nothing to do with what they are evolved to behave like. That might be possible but we need some evidence. I imagine chimps perhaps may engage in some sort of proto-deliberation in this way.
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
and walks outdoors, and keeps on walking,
because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
---Rilke

Offline Zlen

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #79 on: August 11, 2017, 05:04:26 pm »
I'd say atheists are simply more comfortable with their immoral impulses and don't waste time trying to conceal them.
But what the fuck do I know, universe wasn't made with me in mind and when I die I'm not going to a leisure centre with an view of eternal suffering of others as daily entertainment.