Author Topic: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread  (Read 1015526 times)

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12440 on: July 10, 2019, 08:16:30 am »
Just want to add, I didn't ignore Jm55's response to me, but that Billy responded far more eloquently than I could.

As he said, the very first step is realising and accepting logic cannot save you. As much as we humans love to tout the intellect, we are not just intellectual beings.

We don't fall into addiction because of logic, and logic alone won't help us climb out of it.  Logic and evidence will explain what is happening to us, and describe potential solutions, but on it's own it isn't enough.
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Offline Billy The Kid

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12441 on: July 11, 2019, 05:23:27 pm »
This is an interesting passage from the AA big book. It encapsulates how chronic alcoholics are powerless to refrain from drinking and why many medical experts (past and present) still recommend the 12 steps of AA as the only viable means of recovery. It's an interesting read.

A certain American business man had ability, good sense, and high character. For years he had floundered from one sanitarium to another. He had consulted the best known American psychiatrists. Then he had gone to Europe, placing himself in the care of the celebrated physician (the psychiatrist, Dr. Jung) who prescribed for him. Though experience had made him skeptical, he finished his treatment with unusual confidence. His physical and mental condition were unusually good. Above all, he believed he had acquired such a profound knowledge of the inner workings of his mind and its hidden springs that relapse was unthinkable.

Nevertheless, he was drunk in a short time. More baffling still, he could give himself no satisfactory explanation for his fall. So he turned to this doctor, whom he admired, and asked him point-blank why he could not recover. He wished above all things to regain self-control. He seemed quite rational and well-balanced with respect to other problems. Yet he had no control whatever over alcohol. Why was this?

He begged the doctor to tell him the whole truth, and he got it. In the doctor’s judgment he was utterly hopeless; he could never regain his position in society and he would have to place himself under lock and key or hire a bodyguard if he expected to live long. That was a great physician’s opinion. But this man still lives, and is a free man. He does not need a bodyguard nor is he confined. He can go anywhere on this earth where other free men may go without disaster, provided he remains willing to maintain a certain simple attitude. Some of our alcoholic readers may think they can do without spiritual help. Let us tell you the rest of the conversation our friend had with his doctor.

The doctor said: ”You have the mind of a chronic alcoholic. I have never seen one single case recover, where that state of mind existed to the extent that it does in you.“ Our friend felt as though the gates of hell had closed on him with a clang. He said to the doctor, ”Is there no exception?“ ”Yes,“ replied the doctor, ”there is. Exceptions to cases such as yours have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To me these occurrences are phenomena. They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements.

Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them. In fact, I have been trying to produce some such emotional rearrangements within you. With many individuals the methods which I employed are successful, but I have never been successful with an alcoholic of your description.“


The description of alcoholic he is talking about is the chronic one. This is when the disease has progressed to such a chronic state that the alcoholic has gone beyond all human and medical aid. No one can really save him or her. Carl was a chronic alcoholic. That's why (through this thread) you all watched on as the disease gradually killed him. It is my genuine belief that had he turned to AA and WORKED the steps he would still be alive today. The gentleman mentioned in the story above went to AA. He lived a long life alcohol free and left a fortune to his family

« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 05:27:19 pm by Billy The Kid »
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Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12442 on: July 11, 2019, 06:31:20 pm »
Billy, if you don't mind me asking, I have a question. No worries if you'd rather not give an answer, of course. I'm just interested in your take on it.

Do you see alcoholism as the problem, or a symptom of other problems?

In my limited experience of alcoholics I find that the drinking is a problem, but not the problem. When I had my own problems with alcohol this was also a symptom of other factors. When I addressed the other factors (the real problems) the drinking subsided accordingly. Like pretty much every other self-harming behaviour, excessive drinking tends to be a coping mechanism. For instance, I used to cut myself with razors or glass. People thought my self-harming was a problem, but the reality was it was a symptom of my deeper problems. Once addressed, the self-injury stopped too.

So, for me, if the underlying issues that drive the drinking are addressed successfully, the problematic drinking should fall away as a result because there is no more need for the coping strategy. Personally, I've not met anyone with serious alcohol issues that was not using it to run away from or blot out something. Be it loss, abuse, trauma, lack of confidence and esteem, insecurity etc... So again, I'm seeing alcoholism as a symptom of deeper issues, rather than the primary problem itself. Having said that, I fully accept that it can be the person's 'solution' (the drink) that kills them rather than the primary issue they were using drink in order to cope with.

So yes, the question, should you wish to answer, is do you believe alcoholism to be the problem or the symptom of deeper issues? It's a genuine question, as I'm simply interested in your take on it given your experience.

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Offline Billy The Kid

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12443 on: July 11, 2019, 07:53:48 pm »
So yes, the question, should you wish to answer, is do you believe alcoholism to be the problem or the symptom of deeper issues? It's a genuine question, as I'm simply interested in your take on it given your experience.

Great question mate. To answer it in short, the general consensus amongst most AA members (and indeed the authors of the AA book) is that alcoholism is the manifestation of various deeper issues. The first one is what's medically referred to as "the phenomenon of craving". This is the main factor that separates "alcoholics" from "problem drinkers" and is usually built into the alcoholics DNA from birth. For example, should you listen to a recovered alcoholic recount their first experience of taking a drink then they will often use the words "immediate" or "immediately". I often say "as soon as I took my first drink I knew immediately that I had to have more of this". Or "it immediately took all of my inhibitions away". The hooking comes right out of the gate. It occurs the first time we swallow it. No build up is needed because as I say, the phenomenon of craving is written in our DNA

Then there's resentment. Should you be in the aforementioned category, AND also be the type of person who holds grudges, then becoming a chronic alcoholic is virtually a certainty. Have a conversation with any active alcoholic and I guarantee that within minutes they will hijack the exchange to tell you all about their grudges, their hardships, and all the times they were fucked over throughout their lives. Again, I refer to our dearly departed comrade Carl. Should you read back through the thread then you will note that he resented his mother, he resented his father, he resented his friends, he resented his ex's, he resented the NHS, he resented care workers, he resented pretty much everyone. He was riddled with resentment

As I say, if you couple the phenomenon of craving with a disposition for resenting then you have the perfect storm. Chronic alcoholism awaits you. And because it's progressive, the alcoholic is left with only 2 choices, either quit or die. The only problem is that because of it's progressive nature, the alcoholic will eventually reach a point where he becomes powerless, and so quitting of his own accord or through the help of others becomes impossible. It's at that point the higher power needs to be sought. There are other factors that add to the complexity of it, but that's a basic elementary overview of it. In summary, yes, alcoholism is the manifestation of deeper issues, or "factors" if you will?
When overtaken by defeat, as you may be many times, remember than mans faith in his own ability is tested many times before he is crowned with final victory. Defeats are nothing more than challenges to keep trying.” – Napoleon Hill.

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12444 on: July 11, 2019, 08:57:05 pm »
Great question mate. To answer it in short, the general consensus amongst most AA members (and indeed the authors of the AA book) is that alcoholism is the manifestation of various deeper issues. The first one is what's medically referred to as "the phenomenon of craving". This is the main factor that separates "alcoholics" from "problem drinkers" and is usually built into the alcoholics DNA from birth. For example, should you listen to a recovered alcoholic recount their first experience of taking a drink then they will often use the words "immediate" or "immediately". I often say "as soon as I took my first drink I knew immediately that I had to have more of this". Or "it immediately took all of my inhibitions away". The hooking comes right out of the gate. It occurs the first time we swallow it. No build up is needed because as I say, the phenomenon of craving is written in our DNA

Then there's resentment. Should you be in the aforementioned category, AND also be the type of person who holds grudges, then becoming a chronic alcoholic is virtually a certainty. Have a conversation with any active alcoholic and I guarantee that within minutes they will hijack the exchange to tell you all about their grudges, their hardships, and all the times they were fucked over throughout their lives. Again, I refer to our dearly departed comrade Carl. Should you read back through the thread then you will note that he resented his mother, he resented his father, he resented his friends, he resented his ex's, he resented the NHS, he resented care workers, he resented pretty much everyone. He was riddled with resentment

As I say, if you couple the phenomenon of craving with a disposition for resenting then you have the perfect storm. Chronic alcoholism awaits you. And because it's progressive, the alcoholic is left with only 2 choices, either quit or die. The only problem is that because of it's progressive nature, the alcoholic will eventually reach a point where he becomes powerless, and so quitting of his own accord or through the help of others becomes impossible. It's at that point the higher power needs to be sought. There are other factors that add to the complexity of it, but that's a basic elementary overview of it. In summary, yes, alcoholism is the manifestation of deeper issues, or "factors" if you will?

Thanks for the reply, Billy. It's very interesting to hear your take on it. The part in bold is particularly useful to me at the moment because it's something I can show a good friend of mine who's daughter is an alcoholic. What you said fits her absolutely perfectly. She holds grudges over things but won't even let people know why. It's like she actually wants to have these grudges as an excuse to carry on doing what she's doing. Sadly, she's destroyed her family.

Hearing your take on the craving aspect is helpful too. This person I'm talking about has tried quitting the drink, but then just replaces one addiction with another. So yes, the craving is still present in them even if the method of satisfying it is different.

Thanks again. I appreciate your input.
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline Billy The Kid

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12445 on: July 11, 2019, 09:30:43 pm »
Thanks again. I appreciate your input.

You're most welcome, and I hope your friends daughter finds her escape from it. For what it's worth, (and this is also something I suggest you relay to your friend) appealing to an alcoholic's rationale is often futile. Parents, siblings and close friends can all participate in well intentioned "interventions", but in most cases it will have little affect. It will be futile

Yet put a recovered alcoholic in the company of an active alcoholic, and he will win over the confidence and trust of his ailing comrade in a matter of minutes. Even if they are complete strangers, the recovered one will "reach" the abuser on a level that others cannot. How or why this happens so regularly is still the subject of much debate amongst us. But happen it does.

Should you wish to help your friends daughter, then I suggest that you attend a local AA meeting. You will be welcomed as a guest. When the meeting ends, seek out a member and ask them if they'd be willing to speak to your friends daughter. I'm confident that they will be happy to do so. Set about arranging a get-together between the two. The AA member will do the rest. They will know how to "reach" her

Therapists, while sincere, well intentioned, and well read on the subject of alcoholism, often don't understand the condition in the same way that an actual recovered alcoholic does. Therapy is where you go to spend thousands of pounds just to find out that AA membership is free. Tell your mate save his money and skip the therapy. Make it his mission to get her in touch with AA

When overtaken by defeat, as you may be many times, remember than mans faith in his own ability is tested many times before he is crowned with final victory. Defeats are nothing more than challenges to keep trying.” – Napoleon Hill.

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12446 on: July 11, 2019, 09:48:43 pm »
My friend's daughter doesn't know that I know. I'm more of a support to my friend, who confides in me to try to understand what's going on and possibly why. If she didn't have me to support her on this I think she'd have gone over the edge herself due to the strain her daughter was putting on the family. I think my friend has come to realise now that what you said about appealing to an alcoholic's rationale is futile. All that has been tried and has failed.

I know the daughter has done AA and been to the meetings. She also has, or had, a sponsor. Trust and any meaningful contact between my friend and her daughter has pretty much broken down now, so I don't know if she still attends AA or not.

Again, thank you for your input.  :)
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline Billy The Kid

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12447 on: July 12, 2019, 10:58:11 am »
I know the daughter has done AA and been to the meetings. She also has, or had, a sponsor. Trust and any meaningful contact between my friend and her daughter has pretty much broken down now, so I don't know if she still attends AA or not.

As I mentioned earlier, sitting in meetings telling war stories and chatting on the phone with a sponsor will NOT get her sober.

Meetings and sponsors are merely safety nets. If she wants to get sober then she has to WORK the steps.

It's imperative that your friend knows that. Good luck!
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 11:00:00 am by Billy The Kid »
When overtaken by defeat, as you may be many times, remember than mans faith in his own ability is tested many times before he is crowned with final victory. Defeats are nothing more than challenges to keep trying.” – Napoleon Hill.

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12448 on: July 12, 2019, 09:49:07 pm »
As I mentioned earlier, sitting in meetings telling war stories and chatting on the phone with a sponsor will NOT get her sober.

Meetings and sponsors are merely safety nets. If she wants to get sober then she has to WORK the steps.

It's imperative that your friend knows that. Good luck!

Thanks mate. Personally, I get the impression that when push comes shove, she doesn't actually want to get better. I hope I'm wrong, but that's how it comes over from the things I know.

I've had similar when counselling some people on other issues. Some just think turning up to sessions is enough. They'll turn up, but they won't put the work in, so they remain stuck. For some, being stuck is familiar and becomes almost comfortable when compared to the hard work and discomfort of actually making changes.

Just one last quick question if I may, Billy. You mentioned previously how many alcoholics will hijack a conversation and make it all about them and the grudges they hold against certain others. This is absolutely the case with my friend's daughter. With her she seems hell-bent on keeping the grudge active rather than addressing it and potentially being able to then let it go and move on.

My question is, in your experience, is it common for alcoholics to actively want to keep their grudges going, and if so, what do you feel they gain from this?

Thanks for any reply. I'll leave you alone after this one.  :)
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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12449 on: July 13, 2019, 11:49:06 pm »
The Alcoholics Anonymous book was written by alcoholics. It also contains detailed contributions from medical experts who specialize in dealing with alcoholic addiction. Almost every alcoholic, myself included, completely agree with, and identify with, the description of alcoholism as outlined and explained in the book. As I mentioned earlier, I do not know of any real alcoholics who have managed to recover from alcoholism by using a different method to the the one outlined in the big book of AA. Again, that's not an "opinion" mate. That is my experience and the experience of every other alcoholic I know. Deduce from that what you will
I'm with Billy on this. Alcohol was never my problem but always my solution. AA saved my life. A higher power, support network of people who understand the disease and meetings which educate you about the condition were the only successful way forward in my experience

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12450 on: July 13, 2019, 11:51:38 pm »
Thanks mate. Personally, I get the impression that when push comes shove, she doesn't actually want to get better. I hope I'm wrong, but that's how it comes over from the things I know.

I've had similar when counselling some people on other issues. Some just think turning up to sessions is enough. They'll turn up, but they won't put the work in, so they remain stuck. For some, being stuck is familiar and becomes almost comfortable when compared to the hard work and discomfort of actually making changes.

Just one last quick question if I may, Billy. You mentioned previously how many alcoholics will hijack a conversation and make it all about them and the grudges they hold against certain others. This is absolutely the case with my friend's daughter. With her she seems hell-bent on keeping the grudge active rather than addressing it and potentially being able to then let it go and move on.

My question is, in your experience, is it common for alcoholics to actively want to keep their grudges going, and if so, what do you feel they gain from this?

Thanks for any reply. I'll leave you alone after this one.  :)
Resentments will kill you if you are an alcoholic. I never harbour them anymore

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12451 on: July 14, 2019, 12:11:22 am »
You can have righteous anger, but if you think about it, nobody in their right mind wants to be angry.

So anybody who wants to stay angry and continuously justifies it isn't in a right frame of mind.
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Offline Billy The Kid

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12452 on: July 18, 2019, 12:17:54 pm »
Just one last quick question if I may, Billy. You mentioned previously how many alcoholics will hijack a conversation and make it all about them and the grudges they hold against certain others. This is absolutely the case with my friend's daughter. With her she seems hell-bent on keeping the grudge active rather than addressing it and potentially being able to then let it go and move on.

My question is, in your experience, is it common for alcoholics to actively want to keep their grudges going, and if so, what do you feel they gain from this?

Thanks for any reply. I'll leave you alone after this one.  :)

Apologies I only just spotted this post now

To answer your question, I don't think it's necessarily a case of them wanting to keep their grudges, I think it's more a case that they're just unable to let them go. Alcoholics aren't just physically and mentally sick, they're also spiritually sick. They resent the world and everyone in it. That's why step 4 is probably the most important. The personal inventory gets you to write out all of your resentments. Then you have to write out why you hold the resentment. Then you have to write out the part that you played in causing the resentment. If done honestly, the alcoholic will gradually start to realise that it's not the world and everyone in it that causes his resentments, it's actually himself. That's why it's called a SEARCHING and fearless MORAL inventory 
When overtaken by defeat, as you may be many times, remember than mans faith in his own ability is tested many times before he is crowned with final victory. Defeats are nothing more than challenges to keep trying.” – Napoleon Hill.

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12453 on: July 18, 2019, 12:34:01 pm »
Genuine question, does alcohol addiction differ from other drug addictions, and if so how?
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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12454 on: July 18, 2019, 07:00:54 pm »
Apologies I only just spotted this post now

To answer your question, I don't think it's necessarily a case of them wanting to keep their grudges, I think it's more a case that they're just unable to let them go. Alcoholics aren't just physically and mentally sick, they're also spiritually sick. They resent the world and everyone in it. That's why step 4 is probably the most important. The personal inventory gets you to write out all of your resentments. Then you have to write out why you hold the resentment. Then you have to write out the part that you played in causing the resentment. If done honestly, the alcoholic will gradually start to realise that it's not the world and everyone in it that causes his resentments, it's actually himself. That's why it's called a SEARCHING and fearless MORAL inventory

Thanks for that, Billy.

Again, this was informative and helpful, thus much appreciated.

Take care, mate.
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline Billy The Kid

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12455 on: July 19, 2019, 08:58:45 am »
Genuine question, does alcohol addiction differ from other drug addictions, and if so how?

Addictions come in various forms and have different underlying causes. They're as complex as human beings themselves.

Gamblers for example are hooked on the thrill. Gambling is particularly dangerous because unlike alcohol, the gambling playground is open 24/7. If I go and drink 15 pints and a bottle of whiskey my body will eventually give way and I'll fall down and pass out for 8 to 10 hours. The gambler can walk out of the bookies, go home and continue gambling on his phone without interval, right up until he's completely cleaned out. Gambling doesn't come with hangovers or the medical repercussion of liver failure. It's mainly just financial ruin. Yes, they're both "addictions" but they differ greatly. Add more different types of addictions into the mix and the complexity increases further still
When overtaken by defeat, as you may be many times, remember than mans faith in his own ability is tested many times before he is crowned with final victory. Defeats are nothing more than challenges to keep trying.” – Napoleon Hill.

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12456 on: July 19, 2019, 06:48:00 pm »
Genuine question, does alcohol addiction differ from other drug addictions, and if so how?
To add to what Billy posted, drug addiction is completely different also. It's consequences and side effects are more often than people realise, such as symptoms of psychosis and paranoia to name just a couple. Both unrelated to other addictions.

Offline Billy The Kid

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12457 on: July 19, 2019, 07:09:30 pm »
I wouldn't be Russel Brand's biggest fan in the world, but he does offer some very good insight when it comes to addiction. Particularly in terms of the role that childhood trauma plays in it. Gabor Maté is also someone who offers brilliant insight to the root causes of addiction. He's definitely worth checking out on YouTube.

In my experience, it's rare to come across an alcoholic or drug addict who didn't experience something traumatic in their childhood. Of course, there are exceptions to that rule, but in general, it tends to be very common.
When overtaken by defeat, as you may be many times, remember than mans faith in his own ability is tested many times before he is crowned with final victory. Defeats are nothing more than challenges to keep trying.” – Napoleon Hill.

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12458 on: July 26, 2019, 12:52:21 pm »
Genuine question, does alcohol addiction differ from other drug addictions, and if so how?

In my opinion no.


To quote a section of the NA basic text


"Thinking of alcohol as different to other drugs has caused a great many addicts to relapse, before coming to the fellowship of NA some of us viewed alcohol separately, we cannot afford to be confused about this, alcohol IS a drug, we are people with the disease of addiction, who must abstain from ALL drugs in order to recover"

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12459 on: July 26, 2019, 02:12:58 pm »
In my opinion no.


To quote a section of the NA basic text


"Thinking of alcohol as different to other drugs has caused a great many addicts to relapse, before coming to the fellowship of NA some of us viewed alcohol separately, we cannot afford to be confused about this, alcohol IS a drug, we are people with the disease of addiction, who must abstain from ALL drugs in order to recover"

I'm not sure myself, but if so then this is interesting. I've known more than one person completely recover from drug (no alcohol) addiction without the "higher power" and in one case without NA, counseling or any outside help.
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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12460 on: July 30, 2019, 02:24:28 pm »
Of patients admitted to hospital, 10% are alcohol dependent

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49126495
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Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12461 on: August 1, 2019, 09:32:53 am »
The 'dual stigma' of alcohol-related brain damage

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-49171526
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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12462 on: August 19, 2019, 04:58:54 pm »
MDMA treatment for alcoholism could reduce relapse, study suggests

Researchers say drug is safe and appears more effective than conventional treatments

The first study looking into the use of MDMA to treat alcohol addiction has shown the treatment is safe and early results show encouraging outcomes from the approach, scientists have said.

Doctors in Bristol are testing whether a few doses of the drug, in conjunction with psychotherapy, could help patients overcome alcoholism more effectively than conventional treatments. Those who have completed the study have so far reported almost no relapse and no physical or psychological problems.

In comparison, eight in 10 alcoholics in England relapse within three years after current treatment approaches. Dr Ben Sessa, an addiction psychiatrist and senior research fellow at Imperial College London, and who led the trial, said: “With the very best that medical science can work with, 80% of people are drinking within three years post alcohol detox.”

Eleven people have so far completed the safety and tolerability study, which involves nine months of follow-ups. “We’ve got one person who has completely relapsed, back to previous drinking levels, we have five people who are completely dry and we have four or five who have had one or two drinks but wouldn’t reach the diagnosis of alcohol use disorder,” Sessa said.

Most addiction is based on underlying trauma, often from childhood, explained Sessa. “MDMA selectively impairs the fear response,” he said. “It allows recall of painful memories without being overwhelmed.

“MDMA psychotherapy gives you the opportunity to tackle rigidly held personal narratives that are based on early trauma. It’s the perfect drug for trauma-focused psychotherapy.”

The first stage of the new study was designed to show the therapy is safe. Further research, which compares results with a randomised control group who receive a placebo instead of MDMA, will be needed to back up the treatment’s effectiveness.

After preliminary screening, including medical and psychological tests, the participants are given an eight-week course of psychotherapy. In weeks three and six, they are given a powerful dose of MDMA.

Sessions are conducted in a hospital with a psychiatrist and a psychologist present. Participants are given the drug and then spend eight hours with the specialists, mostly lying down, wearing eyeshades and headphones.

“We let them lead the sessions as to where they want to go. What comes up comes up, so it’s not very guided by the clinicians,” said Sessa.

After the MDMA-assisted sessions, patients stay overnight and are telephoned every day for a week to collect data on sleep quality, mood and potential suicide risk. Significantly, this data has shown no evidence of drug withdrawal or comedown symptoms from the MDMA.

“There is no black Monday, blue Tuesday, or whatever ravers call it. In my opinion, that is an artefact of raving. It’s not about MDMA,” said Sessa, referring to recreational users of the drug, which is often associated with clubbing.

“If there was a craze of people going around abusing cancer chemotherapy drugs, you wouldn’t then think: ‘Oh well, it’s not safe to take cancer chemotherapy when doctors give it to you,’” said Sessa. “Scientists know it’s not dangerous. The Sun newspaper thinks it’s dangerous because the tiny number of fatalities that occur every year all get on their front page.”

MDMA was used as a legal prescription drug to enhance the effectiveness of psychotherapy in the US from the 1970s to 1985 and in Switzerland up until 1993. In recent years, MDMA therapy has been studied extensively as a treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

Speaking at Breaking Convention in London over the weekend about a study published earlier this year, Rick Doblin, founder of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, said: “61% no longer have PTSD – that’s after two month’s follow-up. But more importantly, after one year of follow-up, people still keep getting better.”

David Nutt, professor of neuropsychopharmacology at Imperial College London, who was also involved in the study, said the research had faced financial barriers that meant it took two years to set up because of the “profound” legal constraints of working with a schedule 1 drug. “Unfortunately, it’s very difficult to get money for this from government funding. But we have a scientific credibility that will allow charitable funders to support us,” said Nutt.

In response, a government spokesperson said: “We have a clear licensing regime, supported by legislation, which allows legitimate research to take place in a secure environment while ensuring that harmful drugs are not misused and do not get into the hands of criminals.”

Offline rob1966

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12463 on: August 19, 2019, 07:20:30 pm »
The 'dual stigma' of alcohol-related brain damage

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-49171526

This is what has happened to the wifes mother. She'll be 80 next April, if she lives that long, but for years she's being showing all the symptoms, my missus used to get really worried about her health, I always said it was the alcohol that was causing the problems. She's always, since I've known her, been a horrible woman and as more and more of her brain has died, she has become a more and more evil c*nt.

What I really hate is my Mum died at 61, before I had the kids and the only nan they got was this selfish twat who has always been more interested in drinking than in them.At least they had 2 grandads and 2 step grandads who wanted to spend time with them.
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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12464 on: August 19, 2019, 09:18:17 pm »
MDMA treatment for alcoholism could reduce relapse, study suggests

The founder of AA was a user of LSD in his latter years, and suggested it as a tool for recovery from alcoholism on many occasions. I've also met many recovered alcoholics who owe their recovery from alcoholism to the use of various psychedelics, particularly Ayahuasca and Psilocybin. Many have recounted that these "trips" have helped them undergo the vital "spiritual" experiences needed to expel their compulsion to drink. I myself am planning a trip to South America next summer to experiment with such remedies

***DISCLAIMER***  THE ABOVE POST DOES NOT ENDORSE ANY RELIGIOUS SECTS OR DENOMINATIONS NOR IS IT IT INTENDED TO BE SUGGESTIVE OF THE EXISTENCE OF A DIVINE DIETY

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12465 on: August 19, 2019, 10:16:59 pm »
Billy, I have a brother living in Brazil whose wife is a shamen of some sort. He’s done the ayahuasca ritual, let me know if you need a steer and I’ll ask him for you.

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12466 on: August 20, 2019, 03:23:11 am »
Billy, I have a brother living in Brazil whose wife is a shamen of some sort. He’s done the ayahuasca ritual, let me know if you need a steer and I’ll ask him for you.

When the pupil is ready the teacher will appear . Right ?

PM him just incase.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 03:29:40 am by kesey »
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Offline Billy The Kid

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12467 on: August 20, 2019, 10:33:12 am »
Billy, I have a brother living in Brazil whose wife is a shamen of some sort. He’s done the ayahuasca ritual, let me know if you need a steer and I’ll ask him for you.

That's very kind of you. I appreciate that greatly. I certainly will do
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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12468 on: August 20, 2019, 03:16:25 pm »
When the pupil is ready the teacher will appear . Right ?

PM him just incase.

 ;D

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12469 on: November 15, 2019, 12:36:15 pm »
Okay, got a tough one on my hands - would appreciate RAWK's usual patience, empathy and advice  :-*

Short version - last week my dad almost died. He contracted acute urosepsis, the symptoms of which were heavily masked by him going on a fuckin massive whisky binge. Everyone around him thought he was just pissed again - and he wasn't looking after himself - and he went into a psychotic spiral which included him trying to slash his own throat with broken whisky bottles. Then he spent three days on the sofa sleeping, pissing himself, vomiting and also not changing his stoma bag (he's awaiting a bowel reversal after successful treatment for cancer - his reversal op has been postponed and he's using that as an excuse to fall off the wagon and think his life is........well...........shit........pardon the pun........)

More detail - the sepsis was so bad he was in ICU for 10 days, included 2 days on dialysis due to acute renal failure. He almost died. He has been discharged but is very frail/weak and has likely suffered permanent kidney damage. Fuck knows how his liver is, he's back on a catheter and his reversal op has been postponed again, this time due to his body not being fit enough for the surgery.

So, he's falling off the wagon regularly (including being arrested at the wheel of his car and 4 times over the limit, which earned him a night in the cells BUT he's a very lucky fella cos his car was on the driveway, not on the road, therefore on private property, so apparently they couldn't prosecute him - I wish they had!!!!!!)

He's clinically depressed/suicidal.

He has no self-control, not just in terms of his actions but his mental state and his bodily functions.

Now, he's been following this pattern for almost a year now. We had a conversation yesterday, the first one since before his last bender and the first one since he came out of hospital. I had no fuckin idea what had been happening until his estranged wife and his 'girlfriend' both updated me separately. In this conversation, he made ZERO REFERENCE to the booze or the slashing, ZERO REFERENCE to not caring for himself and ZERO REFERENCE to the consequences of his sickness.

FFS, I'm at me wits end! I can't work out if it's wilful ignorance, denial, deception or just simple selfishness. For sure, he's likely carrying a lot of shame around this but I'm his eldest son. I was the one he first admitted being an alcoholic too - then he spent 5 years on the wagon - and now this. He almost died - and something like that you'd hope would wake him up to himself - but no, he's in denial at best.

I want to be compassionate and understanding, I want to have a connection of sorts - but I cannot reach a man who is so disconnected from his own reality. And I want to say to him that I know everything he hasn't told me and I'm not blaming and I'm trying to stay out of judgement but it still fucking hurts that he won't open up to me......and I want to tell him that when he's ready to make a connection to himself, then that will enable him to connect with others, including me, and I'll welcome him with open arms.

But right now, those arms are being used to shield myself from him, to keep him at a distance. I need to take care of my own emotional hygiene.

What would you do here?

Thanks for reading - sorry for dumping - I don't know where else to communicate it.

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12470 on: November 15, 2019, 02:52:06 pm »
So, he's falling off the wagon regularly (including being arrested at the wheel of his car and 4 times over the limit, which earned him a night in the cells BUT he's a very lucky fella cos his car was on the driveway, not on the road, therefore on private property, so apparently they couldn't prosecute him - I wish they had!!!!!!)

Do you know if he has a local and whether they let him drive home etc or is it a case of drinking in home and then deciding to go out? 

He's clinically depressed/suicidal.

Is he on tablets?  Is he drinking with the tablets?  Speak to his doctor if he is

In this conversation, he made ZERO REFERENCE to the booze or the slashing, ZERO REFERENCE to not caring for himself and ZERO REFERENCE to the consequences of his sickness.

He doesn't want to appear weak and in need of help

And I'm sorry but I have no idea how you can help someone that has this "mentality" - as always until he can admit the problem and get help then i believe you are fighting a losing battle.

Sorry about the "depressing" reply






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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12471 on: November 15, 2019, 05:29:24 pm »
Jim, he's ill. He needs professional help and the right drugs. His mind is probably too far gone to realise he has a problem, or he is aware at some level, but paranoid about it, so will never tell about it. From what you say, it sounds to me that he's a case where meds could help, but I'm not a doc and in my experience it takes a long time for someone to find the right doc to get help. And at the current state of the nhs, he'd be waiting at least 6 months to even speak to someone (and he'll need several of those attempts).

Usually the pattern of behaviour continues until someone is too ill to leave stationary care, and with a lot of luck someone will be there to drill down to the underlying problems.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you can do. In my experience most docs won't even listen to you without his permission, which he won't give. You could try one of the mental health charities to aee if they have any ideas.


And look after yourself. :) You won't be able to help him if you're not well yourself.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 05:31:44 pm by redbyrdz »
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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12472 on: November 15, 2019, 06:26:23 pm »
No advice Jim...

But my thoughts are with you.  I know how hard this must be.
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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12473 on: November 15, 2019, 07:08:59 pm »
Honestly, it sounds like he might not have long left. I would just be nice to him and let him know you're there if he needs you, and will do whatever to help him.

Some might advise taking the tough love, intervention-style of 'I'm going to cut you out of my life if you don't change' - I think that would just leave you with a lifetime of regret after he died.

Really tough situation, I feel for you

Offline 24/7

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12474 on: November 15, 2019, 11:39:09 pm »
Yup that just about reflects the reality of it - I've been doing a lot of work on myself these last two years about peeling away the layers of guilt and shame I've carried from my own life since childhood.

Which also explains why I've not been as 'active' as I used to be and why I've gone all neo-kesey on youse.....and actually it was losing Carl that kick-started it - and Billy the Kid got me on to the shift in my own relationship with alcohol. Now I'm 84kgs, down from 125. Two glasses of red and I'm asleep......happy days lads really.........

Anyway, I'm not going to carry any regarding him any longer. I've done what I can............but at the same I can't do the tough-love-cut-him-out thing either.

Tried that. Deaf ears doesn't cover it. *sigh*

And yeah, sounds like he doesn't have long left - the next major health incident should kill him. In a way, I hope it does.

Not because I'm a callous c*nt, but because I want his pain and suffering to end.

He's carried the wounds from his own childhood with him all his life, including (I presume!) guilt over ripping my life apart when I was 4 and beating me when I was younger........so I have forgiven him for that.

As for the depression, well, this is the UK we're talking about - and a man in his 70s - GPs in MK are over-stretched at the best of times and the NHS is being geared up for privatisation.

He's been on Sertraline for longer than I care to remember. I know that SSRIs cease to have a meaningful effect after 6 months. Pills are not the answer.

Although, and I mean this sincerely, they're at least cleaner than slashing your throat with a broken Bells bottle........and if he had anything stronger, I'm sure that's the route he'd take. He was previously addicted to co-codamols, to the extent that he'd steal the ones I used to take for backaches.......

*sigh*

Cheers for the replies anyways.

I think I'll make my peace with it and send him a similar message to that which I sent my stepmother.

"I have to live my own life as best I can, to love as best I can, and to care for myself, my own emotional wounds as best I can. Let me know when it's time to say goodbye."
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 11:42:44 pm by 24/7 »

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12475 on: November 15, 2019, 11:58:27 pm »
Best wishes 24/7, sounds absolutely terrible.
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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12476 on: November 16, 2019, 01:39:44 am »
I've read your post a number of times today but stopped short of replying.

Sometimes things can look so bleak and hopeless that it's difficult to find the words. When you don't feel you can offer anything positive, it's sometimes easier to say nothing.  :-\

My friend is going through similar with her daughter, although their situation is not yet as advanced as your own. I see what it's done to her daughter, her daughter's life, her kids lives and her now ex-husbands life and I've seen what it's done to my friend too. It's tragic, so I can certainly sympathise with you here. I was actually wondering where you'd gone, and I was missing your terrible (but good) jokes in the jokes thread. I had no idea what you were going through.

From what you have said it seems your dad has got his own demons, his own deep fears, regrets etc. I've seen that a million times. Drink or harder drugs become the escape, then they become your life. Or more realistically, they become your slow death.

I've seen the tough love approach, but does it ever really work anyway? Much of the time it just gives the person concerned another reason/excuse to hit the bottle again or score more drugs. When in a downward spiral, another perceived rejection just seems to fuel the descent further.

Personally, I don't think you can change a person. They have to do it themselves and because they want to. All we can do is be there and offer support if/when they choose to look for it. Until then, hands are tied. It's heartbreaking and it's horribly tragic, but there aren't really a lot of options on the table.

I've had long listening sessions with my friend and she's also asked for my opinion at times too. It's hard to offer opinion on something that's not yours. Where on earth do you start when the issue is so complex and soul destroying? My friend, had to come to her own conclusions, but our chats helped her find them. She reached a point where she had done all she could reasonably do. She also knew that if she didn't step back and take care of her own suffering mental health she would go down too. Sadly, people with addictions will take others down with them if you let them. At some point, we have to abandon the ship before we sink too.

'Abandoning the ship' need not mean cutting your dad out. It could mean making him fully aware that you will offer your support should he decide he wants help, but you also pull back and protect yourself as best as you can. I saw with my friend that she was also on the rollercoaster her daughter was on, simply because she was naturally so invested in her daughter's wellbeing, but she only regained her own sanity once she got off the rollercoaster, took a step back and started to look after herself once more.

I used to have a girlfriend I loved dearly, but she was also a violent, abusive alcoholic. I tried to 'fix her'. I tried to be the person who could make the difference, but it nearly killed me. Trying to be there took me to depths I never want to reach ever again in my life. In the end I had to walk away. I also had another girlfriend whose brother drank himself to death. Her mother also did the same thing some years later. One thing all this taught me was that unless the person concerned admits they have an addiction, then seek help and support for it and the underlying issues that drive it, there is not really anything you can do for them. That sounds bleak, but I think that's the cold reality of it, unfortunately.

You said your dad has been on Sertraline for a long time. I don't really agree that they (SSRIs) have no meaningful effect after 6 months. They take about half of that time just to become effective. I've been on them since around 2002 and I'd be dead if I wasn't. I absolutely agree that pills are not the answer, though. They are best used alongside counselling and other therapies as well as other approaches to personal development. They certainly don't solve problems, but they can assist you while you do so by other, more sustainable means. Problem is, popping SSRIs won't help anyone unless they also do things to improve their own lives as well.

From the perspective of someone not involved in your situation I would say that when we can't change the situation, we have to change how we deal with the situation. Only you can work out how much of yourself you can give to your dad whilst also retaining your own sanity. Somewhere in there, there is a balance you could be comfortable with. I think in life we have to feel like we did all we reasonably could do, but we cannot do more than that. You cannot beat yourself up over things that aren't yours and which are also out of your control. Whatever you feel your best is, give it. At least then, you will know you can look yourself in the mirror knowing you did what you felt was right.

The balance my friend arrived at with her daughter sees her not taking on what isn't hers. Her daughter has responsibility for that. My friend will always be there and be supportive if/when her daughter seeks support, but if/when she goes off on one she leaves her to take responsibility for her actions and fix the mess herself. In reality, that's the only way she will turn her life around, if she ever chooses to.

I realise I'm waffling on here and to be honest I'm tempted to scrap the post and not send it. The post feels messy and all over the place, but maybe that's simply a reflection of the subject matter?

In your initial post yesterday you asked ''What would you do here?'' I'd maybe like to turn that question around for a moment and say to you, if someone on here came on with a similar scenario and asked the same question, what would your reply be to them? I think if you can stand back a little and answer that question you will have probably found your own answer.

Anyway, sincere apologies if all this sounds like a load of rambling rubbish. You come across to me as a quality person and I hate to see you (and your dad) suffering like this.
Like many others who have read your post, I wish I could help, but know I can't. I wish you and your dad the very best. Your dad is important, but you are too, so look after yourself.
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline redbyrdz

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12477 on: November 16, 2019, 09:04:59 am »
That's a top post SoS, glad you didn't delete it
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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12478 on: November 16, 2019, 09:15:33 am »
You can’t carry guilt about the past.  Because you can never change it.

The only thing you can do is learn from what you feel you’ve done wrong.  You can only deal with today and tomorrow, never yesterday.

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Re: Alcohol Issues - The Carl van Riel Memorial Thread
« Reply #12479 on: November 16, 2019, 08:53:50 pm »
So sorry to hear about the situation Jim.  :(
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