Topic: League Cup and Club World Cup.

[JerseyKloppite]

This article sums it up perfectly for me:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/12/20/fifa-club-world-cup-muddled-quasi-tournament-rightly-remains/

There's plenty in there to agree with.

Though I do think that this represents a very European view of the tournament. Most Europeans (and probably most beyond) would concur that the CL is so far ahead of the other continental championships that winning it essentially indicates that you are the best side in the world. Therefore this tournament is an unnecessary hassle and a waste of time.

If you're the champions of Africa, North America, Asia, South America - you're representing your continent and have a chance to take on some of the best players in the world, and ideally to give them a bloody nose. That's why South American clubs/players care so much more about this. It just means more outside of Europe.

So it's fine to disparage it, of course. It's an interesting concept with a deeply flawed application, which from 2021 will become an increasingly bloated money-driven mess. But to deride it completely, in my view, incorporates a degree of European arrogance about its significance. If you want to be crowned the best side in the world, I don't see anything wrong with having to earn that. It's just a shame that FIFA have decided to interrupt domestic calendars to shoehorn in the competition and, all the more so, to hold it somewhere like Qatar.

The idea of a "host country" team taking part is also a joke. It's just pandering. You should have to earn your place in the CWC, not just happen to be the reigning champions in whatever country gets picked to stage the tournament.

[an tha]

You're being disingenuous here. There's a difference really between a "super cup" competition, which is as you say a glorified friendly designed as a curtain raiser to the domestic season, and a competition qualified on merit to determine an actual champion.

The champions of Europe are determined by who wins the CL.
The champions of England are determined by who wins the PL.
The champions of the World are determined by...?

I think there's obviously room for a wide spectrum of views on here but as ever people hate nuance.

It's not a competition that should or will take priority over the league or champions league. It's played in a gap between the early league cup rounds and the FA Cup kicking off so shouldn't have any impact on either. It's obviously a practical challenge to add two games and an overseas trip in an already busy month, but I trust the club to manage this appropriately by sensible use of players in the tournament, particularly given the likely calibre of opposition in the semi-final. Playing it in Qatar is not ideal, either geographically or geo-politically, but it's not a decision the club has made and we are obligated to take part. It might not mean much to our English or European fanbase but it obviously means a lot to our players and supporters from further afield.

So yeah. It's complicated. Not quite a glorified friendly, not quite a sought-after trophy. Champions of the world and strangely insignificant.

But we're in it, so we should try to win it, because that's what we do.

Biggest problem for me with it is the potential impact on our league campaign.

I meant what i said about considering it mickey mouse and you only have to look at how it is viewed generally to see that it is viewed as mickey mouse very widely.

The article i posted above in the thread puts it all really well IMO.

But as i also said earlier my biggest issue with it is a potentially negative impact on our league season and a possible title challenge....firstly by us picking up injurues in these extra games but more specifically for my money it (if it does indeed mean it is the case) falling two league games behind is bad news.

Unless of course the PL do us a turn like they did Man City last year and bring games forward ala their game v Everton.

If we are involved in a title fight with Man City again and it is the same relentless ask as it was last season then them having the chance to put daylight between them and us points wise is bad news....potentially puts us under a lot of pressure - and the likelihood is they'd be winning those games.

All ifs and buts at the moment of course, but for me anything that might harm a possible title tilt is bad news, a largely meaningless competition in December falls into that category for me.

But we are going now, lets hope it does not end up harming us.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

If we go further in the league cup, and the FA Cup and with this also, there are loads of games to be made up and in an already congested period. That's not to mention that we'll have a game in hand potentially at the start of the season already because of the Super Cup as well.

It's a massive issue, we don't have City's depth and unless we field 2nd string in both games, it's going to affect us one way or another.  If we're trying to win the league, this is going to be difficult to navigate later on in the season with the pile up.

[Ocean Red]

If we go further in the league cup, and the FA Cup and with this also, there are loads of games to be made up and in an already congested period. That's not to mention that we'll have a game in hand potentially at the start of the season already because of the Super Cup as well.

It's a massive issue, we don't have City's depth and unless we field 2nd string in both games, it's going to affect us one way or another.  If we're trying to win the league, this is going to be difficult to navigate later on in the season with the pile up.

i think we will play second string teams in the domestic cups again next season. Klopp will want the world title, the premier league title and the european champions league title again next season.

[afc tukrish]

When given a direct choice between one or the other, the Mancs made a mockery of the FA Cup when they dropped out of it to compete for this very competition. That tells you which is more prestigious.

When did Manchester United become the arbiter of prestige?

[CHOPPER]

Am going.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Didn't know this takes place after the league games started. Going to be an even tougher season this with the added competitions

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Am going.

Don't climb high places naked again 

[Sheer Magnetism]

Hope we pull out of this unless the venue changes. Validating those c*nts. Fifa should be fucking ashamed. Want nothing to do with this. Burying the ghosts of 05? Burying the fucking ghosts of the poor slave lads who are building those stadiums on behalf of Qatar and Fifa more like. Partake in this and there is no moral high ground in any talk about City or PSG ever again. Oh yeah i forgot, revenue. Hypocrits

I agree with this, except for the no moral high ground stuff. It's a pathetic non-competition that exists to test out Qatar stadia where workers died in construction ahead of a world cup that was unjustly awarded. I don't blame the club or players for taking part but let's not pretend it means anything. As for it meaning something for Brazilians, how many of their first eleven play outside of Europe? Exactly. It's not the early 80's anymore.

[Peabee]

Imagine the homecoming if we win it.

Chopper's mankini will be coming off this time.

[davidlpool1982]

There's usually a midweek round of PL fixtures in the first week or two of the season. If it's the first week, it'd make sense to have the PL game to be the European Champions Vs Chelsea since it will be postponed anyway and would cause less issues to the Premier League schedule. this is the Premier League though so I expect some half arsed thinking in this regards and they'll somehow manage to screw that up.

[Peabee]

What's the point in this cup? European Cup / CL > UEFA cup / Europa

[RayPhilAlan]

There's usually a midweek round of PL fixtures in the first week or two of the season. If it's the first week, it'd make sense to have the PL game to be the European Champions Vs Chelsea since it will be postponed anyway and would cause less issues to the Premier League schedule. this is the Premier League though so I expect some half arsed thinking in this regards and they'll somehow manage to screw that up.

Don't think there's been an early round of midweek league games for a couple of decades! You're right, it always used to be the way the league started when I was a kid, with a midweek round between the first two Saturdays, but those days are long gone.

Instead, I think this will be played in the same midweek as one of the rounds of CL playoff games. With both us and Chelsea already in the group stages we wouldn't normally have a game that week.

[GucciMane]

I was pissed when we lost it with Rafa their keeper was taking free kicks 

We will beat Chelsea at monaco for the super cup.

[kennedy81]

An absolute waste of time this. We can forget about winning the league if our players are over in Qatar n December getting the shits.

This is not a prestigious competition. That's not my opinion, that's a fact. People in S. America might think it is, but only as a means to get one over on the European clubs, where all good S. American players end up eventually.

Utd fans like to pretend it's important, but only because they've won it and we haven't. Fergie once believed it would become a prestigious competition over time, that's why they jibbed the FA cup for it back then. But it never took off, and few people have given a shit since.

It's a glorified Super Cup, which has somehow managed to become even less important than the Super Cup. The Champions League is the biggest prize in club football. Don't let any S. American or manc tell you otherwise.

[Macphisto80]

Actually have seen mancs say that they are a bigger club than us because they have been world champions and we haven't.

I remember it being a thing...for about 2 months. And then no one gave a fuck.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Wouldn't surprise me at the slightest if Klopp rotated pretty much everyone in the two matches.

[LFC when it suits]

Wouldn't surprise me at the slightest if Klopp rotated pretty much everyone in the two matches.

He won't . He will play his strongest teams just like Real, Barca, Inter, Bayern, Man Utd and Rafa did.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

He won't . He will play his strongest teams just like Real, Barca, Inter, Bayern, Man Utd and Rafa did.

Yeah I am not so sure. He does what the feels is best for his players and for their long term health and fitness. Especially when he's consistently talked about how difficult is in December and January which is why he's rotated massively in the FA cup at that time of year

[vagabond]

No one cares about it ... it’s made up and in no way does it reflect who the best club side in the world is ... it’ll wreck our domestic season... hope we find a way to get out of it

I mean ... all competitions are made up

[jepovic]

He won't . He will play his strongest teams just like Real, Barca, Inter, Bayern, Man Utd and Rafa did.

The owners have made it completely clear that next year the league title is all that matters. Winning CL probably made that priority even clearer. Klopp has shown before that he has no problem with rotating in the domestic cups, and I don't think this will be different.

Just the fact that we don't expect a full effort from Liverpool in this tournament really sums up its insignificance.

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

He won't . He will play his strongest teams just like Real, Barca, Inter, Bayern, Man Utd and Rafa did.

he probably will. As much of a dislike this trophy elicits here, I'm sure Klopp will want to add it to his CV, and a few of the players as well, to round up a nice year and the beautiful no. 6.

People can say the same about the community shield (it's just a friendly bla bla) but when Klopp won the equivalent trophy with Dortmund, he was happy as fuck. He'll be too if we win this.

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

There's plenty in there to agree with.

Though I do think that this represents a very European view of the tournament. Most Europeans (and probably most beyond) would concur that the CL is so far ahead of the other continental championships that winning it essentially indicates that you are the best side in the world. Therefore this tournament is an unnecessary hassle and a waste of time.

If you're the champions of Africa, North America, Asia, South America - you're representing your continent and have a chance to take on some of the best players in the world, and ideally to give them a bloody nose. That's why South American clubs/players care so much more about this. It just means more outside of Europe.

So it's fine to disparage it, of course. It's an interesting concept with a deeply flawed application, which from 2021 will become an increasingly bloated money-driven mess. But to deride it completely, in my view, incorporates a degree of European arrogance about its significance. If you want to be crowned the best side in the world, I don't see anything wrong with having to earn that. It's just a shame that FIFA have decided to interrupt domestic calendars to shoehorn in the competition and, all the more so, to hold it somewhere like Qatar.

The idea of a "host country" team taking part is also a joke. It's just pandering. You should have to earn your place in the CWC, not just happen to be the reigning champions in whatever country gets picked to stage the tournament.

Agree with all of it. It's not only the fact that it is so underrated in Europe (and I would say, specially in the UK: RM and Barca take it moderately seriously), like it or not it carries meaning for our players (Brazilian contingent, Salah, Mane) since in their countries you grow up in the know of an underdog team from your country's (or maybe even hometown) league beating the big European champion.

And aside from that, the world fandom of LFC (which is sometimes strongly carried/mixed with the fandom each country has for their specific countrymen currently playing for LFC) will, consequently with what I said earlier, be watching and hoping we win this one. Keira, Mane, Salah, Fabinho... Their friends and families will be watching and hoping.

[HiTs]

I disagree. Going to Qatar, a state that stole the World Cup thru promising air conditioned stadiums and shipping to Africa.....how is that working out?

Thousands of Indian and Pakistani migrant workers dying to build these stadiums, human rights violations day in day out .... and we are now going to play on those blood soiled grounds.

Sounds pretty abhorrent to me, being Shankly’s socialist club and all that.... but never mind eh, $50m for 2 games and a shiny gold badge....

Frankly, this is a ridiculously simplistic view.

Spending less than a week in Qatar to play in a football tournament we are obligated to compete in does not equate to your club being owned, controlled and operated by people with appalling human rights records, and contributing to lining their pockets by going to games and buying their overpriced tat.

We've not boycotted the Premier League because they allow Man City take part, and we've not boycotted the Champions League because PSG are in it. Liverpool playing in the CWC does not equate to the club supporting the Qatari state or its various policies and practices. As a fan you have every right to take your own moral high ground by not watching the games and celebrating if we win. But trying to make sweeping generalisations about these things is just grandstanding and doesn't contribute anything practical to the discussion on this FIFA clusterfuck.

You're being disingenuous here. There's a difference really between a "super cup" competition, which is as you say a glorified friendly designed as a curtain raiser to the domestic season, and a competition qualified on merit to determine an actual champion.

The champions of Europe are determined by who wins the CL.
The champions of England are determined by who wins the PL.
The champions of the World are determined by...?

I think there's obviously room for a wide spectrum of views on here but as ever people hate nuance.

It's not a competition that should or will take priority over the league or champions league. It's played in a gap between the early league cup rounds and the FA Cup kicking off so shouldn't have any impact on either. It's obviously a practical challenge to add two games and an overseas trip in an already busy month, but I trust the club to manage this appropriately by sensible use of players in the tournament, particularly given the likely calibre of opposition in the semi-final. Playing it in Qatar is not ideal, either geographically or geo-politically, but it's not a decision the club has made and we are obligated to take part. It might not mean much to our English or European fanbase but it obviously means a lot to our players and supporters from further afield.

So yeah. It's complicated. Not quite a glorified friendly, not quite a sought-after trophy. Champions of the world and strangely insignificant.

But we're in it, so we should try to win it, because that's what we do.

[Brain Potter]

I was kind of relieved when I read that this tournament had been binned. When I found out it hadn’t disappointed. It’s the last thing we need at the busiest time of the season. The league and champions league should be our priority again next season.

[Chip Evans]

I disagree. Going to Qatar, a state that stole the World Cup thru promising air conditioned stadiums and shipping to Africa.....how is that working out?

Thousands of Indian and Pakistani migrant workers dying to build these stadiums, human rights violations day in day out .... and we are now going to play on those blood soiled grounds.

Sounds pretty abhorrent to me, being Shankly’s socialist club and all that.... but never mind eh, $50m for 2 games and a shiny gold badge....

Sssssh that's grandstanding.

If they were to concurrently have a minute's silence for all the lads who've died building those stadia one after the other while WC games played, already it would be the knock out stage before a fan was heard singing. Over 4000 people, migrant workers, slaves essentially.

Sports washing reputations is a massive issue, bigger than ffp for me. Taking part in Qatar it has to at least a talking point.

Sorry if that's a ridiculously simplistic view. I'll personally swerve. Would hope the club might at least recognise the conflict it should present. That's all. Will stop derailing the thread now.

[PIPA23]

no chance Klopp will send full squad to this tournament in december... send our youngsters, we have a title to challenge for.

[killer-heels]

Isnt there a two week break in January as well? Surely that means we will end up with some mad fixture pile up near the end?

[strike]

Sao Paolo already knocked out of Copa Libertadores but Flamengo are in so we could still avenge this loss which still grates :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLskQc9QxR8&t

[LFC when it suits]

no chance Klopp will send full squad to this tournament in december... send our youngsters, we have a title to challenge for.

He will literally be the only European Champion to not play his first team if he does that. He will play his full team. Every club in this competition plays their strongest team.

[redk84]

I'm of the mindset.....try to win every competition we enter. With PL/CL keeping priority over the rest if need be

If that means a bit more rotation and rest for players during this tournament so be it....just like Leage cup/FA Cup...

But I want to win this for sure! We've never won it and Real Madrid beat United Arab Emirates' Al Ain last year so Im sure we wont NEED full strength to win this (arrogance maybe or confidence in our squad see it how you like)

[DutchRed]

Frankly, this is a ridiculously simplistic view.

Spending less than a week in Qatar to play in a football tournament we are obligated to compete in does not equate to your club being owned, controlled and operated by people with appalling human rights records, and contributing to lining their pockets by going to games and buying their overpriced tat.

True. But it's still shit and I don't think the club is obliged to enter. I would not want this wonderful football club contributing to any good press for those barbarians. Would not want any of our players celebrating in a stadium that has been built by slaves, would not want supporters to have to bow to medieval religious rules. I'll give you that it still wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as being owned by their royal family to effectively serve as a PR machine for barbarians. However, all the work LFC do to endorse LGBT rights would go down the shitter by going to a place where two men holding hands commit a criminal offence. Again, it isn't out of LFC's own choice to go to Qatar, but how far does that argument go when you could interpret a visit as justifying all the disgusting things happening there?

I will most definitely not watch or follow the games and would be ten, maybe hundred times as proud if the club told FIFA and the scum that rule that place where to stick it than I would be with potentially winning the trophy. If going: design a special rainbow kit to wear during the tournament and donate any proceedings towards LGBT rights groups and towards the families of all the people who died building the grounds.

But in fact: fuck going to Qatar.

[FiSh77]

Isnt there a two week break in January as well? Surely that means we will end up with some mad fixture pile up near the end?

It's in February plus it's staggered so 5 games one week then 5 games the week after, also think the FA cup 5th round is moved to mid week with no replays

[alonsoisared]

Really hope we make some sort of gesture over this. We won't boycott but a message should be sent out in solidarity to the poor workers who have died constructing these stadiums.

[rocco]

Pity it’s not scheduled just before the premier league starts and it would have been a nice two games for pre season 

[NaivetyinBlack]

So we go to Etihad and compete with City, despite the horrific nature of their ownership. We know Abu Dhabi is perhaps shadier than MBS and has probably trumped both him and Qatar in corruption and human slavery. Boycott a visit to Etihad ? We go to Parc de Princess and compete with PSG, despite the human rights abuse by Qatar state. You know how they have built their empires right ? Perhaps a stand against everything they represent, including the shiny stadium in posh Paris ? No ? Not even a protest ?

No objections there when we play these in Europe. But the moment we're supposed to go to Qatar, we're up in arms because of ethics ? A little duplicitous, if you ask me.

At least I understand the concerns people have with a trip to Qatar in the middle of a packed schedule. Guess Klopp has a new headache to contend with / world championship to win. But all this talk of 'binning this competition' is funny. When has a club ever done that ? Can we actually tell FIFA to fuck off ? Would really love a precedent. Every European Champion has played in it from 2005 onwards. How can we get out of it ?

[Dench57]

So we go to Etihad and compete with City, despite the horrific nature of their ownership. We know Abu Dhabi is perhaps shadier than MBS and has probably trumped both him and Qatar in corruption and human slavery. Boycott a visit to Etihad ? We go to Parc de Princess and compete with PSG, despite the human rights abuse by Qatar state. You know how they have built their empires right ? Perhaps a stand against everything they represent, including the shiny stadium in posh Paris ? No ? Not even a protest ?

No objections there when we play these in Europe. But the moment we're supposed to go to Qatar, we're up in arms because of ethics ? A little duplicitous, if you ask me.

At least I understand the concerns people have with a trip to Qatar in the middle of a packed schedule. Guess Klopp has a new headache to contend with / world championship to win. But all this talk of 'binning this competition' is funny. When has a club ever done that ? Can we actually tell FIFA to fuck off ? Would really love a precedent. Every European Champion has played in it from 2005 onwards. How can we get out of it ?

Not sure how many slaves died building the Etihad or the Parc des Princes. Probably 0.

We should be boycotting this, we won't because the financial loss/potential sanctions would be too great, but I'd love it if we did.

[Chip Evans]

No objections there when we play these in Europe. But the moment we're supposed to go to Qatar, we're up in arms because of ethics ? A little duplicitous, if you ask me.

Plenty of objections, but if you can't get people to engage with a serious conversation about these things when we're actually going to play in these places what chance have you got when you play in Manchester or Paris? A little duplicitous is throwing a sly dig in at City fans about human rights etc whenever financial fair play comes up and then turning the other cheek when you go over there for a prestige WC warm up tournament in those places. Starts sounding like the justifications of their fans in here.     

[NaivetyinBlack]

Not sure how many slaves died building the Etihad or the Parc des Princes. Probably 0.

We should be boycotting this, we won't because the financial loss/potential sanctions would be too great, but I'd love it if we did.

That's the excuse City fans give to justify supporting their club. Word for word. Who cares how many slaves built their stadiums in Europe ? Isn't it still blood money ? I remember posting the most comprehensive public audit with an investigative piece  by the excellent Nicholas McGeehan, showcasing the sheer horror of City's ownership. Guess what the replies were by City fans ? "We are only concerned about our club and supporting the football." Etihad is included.

Plenty of objections, but if you can't get people to engage with a serious conversation about these things when we're actually going to play in these places what chance have you got when you play in Manchester or Paris?

Everyone needs to be up in arms about what is happening, both in Qatar and Abu Dhabi. But it has to be all or nothing. Protest against everything these dictator states represent, or nothing at all. It would be a moment of pride and surprised elation if the club actually takes a stance against going to Qatar, but they won't. And that's ok too.

[Chip Evans]

Everyone needs to be up in arms about what is happening, both in Qatar and Abu Dhabi. But it has to be all or nothing. Protest against everything these dictator states represent, or nothing at all. It would be a moment of pride and surprised elation if the club actually takes a stance against going to Qatar, but they won't. And that's ok too.

I agree here.  But the club would never do anything without pressure from the fanbase to do it. Also I know the fanbase won't engage with this because it's too complicated - but it's important to scream into the void about these things. That dig about human rights thrown at City fans has to stop after this. Apologies for derailing - I just think it's a talking point that shouldn't be swept under the rug like it will be by FIFA and all the sponsers of this thing. Disgrace what has happened over this WC - the idea of Liverpool players being used for photo ops to whitewash it makes my skin crawl. Promise, I'm dropping it now.