Author Topic: Spirit of Shankly Q&A  (Read 298246 times)

Offline alex.

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2010, 08:38:33 pm »
Yafoy, what are you trying to get at with your 3rd question, we're all football supporters after all.

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2010, 08:38:47 pm »
Take away our debt and we can run ourselves. We have been paying over £30m of interest in previous years. Take away that and that can go on players. A stadium would probably have to be paid for by investors or loan but then it will be on a better model of only having to pay back the stadium on future match day revenue and not having to deal with another £250m worth of debt. With more and more commercial deals we would be able to earn more than enough to run as a successful club.
Investors or a loan for the build isn't that what you are against, debt against the club? or would you consider selling off the naming rights for the ground to part fund it?
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Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2010, 08:39:44 pm »
Thank you for taking the time to answer. Ok my next question is aimed at your answers.

I can understand that there is a certain time element to these decisions and that answers are needed quickly. But even down to the core belief of 'Not Welcome' campaign ultimatly needs an overall Union majority in order to take the objective forward.

When actions like these have a huge impact on the club not only to members but also non-members, average match going fans, travelling fans, ex-pats etc, should it be more than a pre-selected comittee having the final say?

Some issues like a match boycott which was voted down would get the best response from those at the mass meeting since they will be the ones doing the boycott. Any bigger issues will be judged on each one. We take ideas from feedback we get from members and push forward with them when making decisions. If there is something that needs a bigger response from members before undertaking we will then seek it. For instance asking all members to e-mail us with questions for Purslow and Ayre this week.

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2010, 08:40:09 pm »
What day do you meet Purslow???

Later this week, awaiting confirmation of day and venue.
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Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2010, 08:41:27 pm »
Investors or a loan for the build isn't that what you are against, debt against the club? or would you consider selling off the naming rights for the ground to part fund it?


Naming rights would be down to the fans at the time if the fans owned it. I don't think many would have had objections if Tom and George put a loan on club to build the stadium and nothing else like Arsenal have done. What we are against is the debt being unmanageable and affecting things on the pitch as well as the lies and broken promises.

Offline BillysBoots

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2010, 08:41:56 pm »
Has SOS approached or considered approaching similar supporter groups from Everton or United to try improve relations between the sets of fans and try to eradicate some of the chants at the match?

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2010, 08:44:38 pm »
Investors or a loan for the build isn't that what you are against, debt against the club? or would you consider selling off the naming rights for the ground to part fund it?

With stadium debt, you get something = a stadium, which is normal. Any business would borrow for such a large project, especially one that will pay for itself due to the increase in revenue.

With the current debt we get nothing in return other then the pleasure of having G&H own us and a big interest bill.
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2010, 08:48:52 pm »
Q - you say there is international liason, I network with a lot of european based supporters and fan clubs, no one has been contacted by SOS, why not?

Please email overseas@spiritofshankly.com and indicate who wishes to be contacted. I assume as per our site you have done this already - if you don't get a response then feel free to email me.

Q - why dont you merge with sharelfc?

We are two different organisations with two different sets of objectives. Our objectives are broader than just fans ownership.

Q - do u think itd wise to hold important meetings in bars or places serving alchohol if SOS is to be taken seriously by potential members worldwide ?

Meetings have to take place at places with sufficient capacity. I fail to see the issue here. Most meetings start late morning and last a couple of hours maximum. If you consider alcohol as an influence in debates I think you're hugely mistaken. Perhaps you'd care to be more specific?
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Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2010, 08:49:23 pm »
Q - you say there is international liason, I network with a lot of european based supporters and fan clubs, no one has been contacted by SOS, why not?

There are tonnes of supporters groups in the world and it would be impossible to get round them all. We have mainly been focusing on talking to International SOS members who want to help us out with links to set up. If you have those links and want to help out more then e-mail Tommy at overseas@spiritofshankly.com and I am sure he will be grateful to look into the links you have to spread the word of SOS.

Q - why dont you merge with sharelfc?

We have worked with them and the Chair and Vice-Chair of SOS sit on the committee of Share Liverpool to offer support as well. We couldn't see were a merge would be useful at the moment. Also, to note as well, even if we got fan ownership of the club there would still be the need for Spirit of Shankly to operate in the same way we do now. So a complete merge wouldn't be suitable.

Q - do u think itd wise to hold important meetings in bars or places serving alchohol if SOS is to be taken seriously by potential members worldwide ?

We are all responsible people here, so I don't see where this is an issue. We have our meetings before games to allow it to get the best possible attendance. People still want to have their matchday routine and enjoy the day still. This doesn't affect the running of things. Anyone who comes to a mass meeting will see that it is run very professionally.

Offline montysmum

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2010, 08:50:51 pm »
The ultimate aim for SOS is fan ownership. Something that we have been disapointed in the speed at which Share Liverpool has moved and an area which we may have to take over to push forward.

This is such a good point.

Share Liverpool was launched on a wave of enthusiasm and feelings against the owners, but is now never heard of.

I know they have reduced the price of their share option to a more affordable £500, but even following this move they just seem to be sitting back and waiting for thousands of fans to miraculously find their website, donate and all of a sudden the club will be in the fans hands (apologies if this is wrong, but it is my view of things)

How would SOS envisage re-energising such a scheme and making it work.  I know you dont want to tread on anyone's toes, but all the time ShareLiverpool are sitting back nt being pro-active the club is getting deeper in the mire. Sometimes toes need to be stamped on!
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Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2010, 08:51:13 pm »
Would it be worth sending out a questionaire regarding the frequency/total of match goers within the membership with the next mail shot/ballot papers? Just a thought. Might be handy information to have in the future.

Something to consider. But there is always the risk like happens now that we get accused of favouring a certain type of supporter which is not the case.

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2010, 08:52:30 pm »
Has SOS approached or considered approaching similar supporter groups from Everton or United to try improve relations between the sets of fans and try to eradicate some of the chants at the match?

This isn't an issue that has been raised by members as a priority nor have we been asked to get involved. Clearly if it was we would act upon it.

It's an emotive subject generally with the old "who started it first" and "you're worse than us" redundant arguments.
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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2010, 08:52:50 pm »
With stadium debt, you get something = a stadium, which is normal. Any business would borrow for such a large project, especially one that will pay for itself due to the increase in revenue.

With the current debt we get nothing in return other then the pleasure of having G&H own us and a big interest bill.
So there is good debt and bad debt, the good being the fans debt the bad being the yanks. But both being good debt when building a ground and what sort of debt would it be if we wanted to buy a player valued at 30 million.
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Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2010, 08:53:01 pm »
Thank you for taking the time to answer. Ok my next question is aimed at your answers.

I can understand that there is a certain time element to these decisions and that answers are needed quickly. But even down to the core belief of 'Not Welcome' campaign ultimatly needs an overall Union majority in order to take the objective forward.

When actions like these have a huge impact on the club not only to members but also non-members, average match going fans, travelling fans, ex-pats etc, should it be more than a pre-selected comittee having the final say?

Was it really essential for the last protest to go ahead before getting the majority view of the entire membership instead of those who could manage to get to a mass meeting?

Think you edited to add the last part which I didn't answer. That protest was form of Not Welcome Here campaign and was discussed when we launched it at the mass meeting and otherwise. So we had the approval to do it there as well as the mandate we have.

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2010, 08:56:36 pm »
So there is good debt and bad debt, the good being the fans debt the bad being the yanks. But both being good debt when building a ground and what sort of debt would it be if we wanted to buy a player valued at 30 million.

That's the point exactly. If the debt was replaced by fans putting their money in then there would be a "debt" but it would be for about 100000 £500s. Also the fans wouldnt be wanting a return. Good debt.

The profit the Club would make would be ploughed back into the Club and not leave the Club to owners or banks. So the reinvestment of profits would be used to strengthen the squad.

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Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2010, 08:57:36 pm »
So there is good debt and bad debt, the good being the fans debt the bad being the yanks. But both being good debt when building a ground and what sort of debt would it be if we wanted to buy a player valued at 30 million.


The only good debt in reference to if it was needed for stadium is one that is manageable that doesn't affect what happens on the pitch. Having a sugar daddy is not a good business model either. Too many clubs including Us, United and Portsmouth are not run well and the bubble has to burst eventually. We want a football club with stability and following the traditions of the Liverpool way, not one that runs from refinancing deal to refinancing deal.

Offline RedinExile

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2010, 09:02:18 pm »
That's the point exactly. If the debt was replaced by fans putting their money in then there would be a "debt" but it would be for about 100000 £500s. Also the fans wouldnt be wanting a return. Good debt.

The profit the Club would make would be ploughed back into the Club and not leave the Club to owners or banks. So the reinvestment of profits would be used to strengthen the squad.



So SOS are entirely in synch with the stadium objectives of SL?

And the mechanisms for barring applicants or suspending members I mentioned earlier - are there any in place?

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Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2010, 09:13:02 pm »
So SOS are entirely in synch with the stadium objectives of SL?

Needs to be judged accordingly to ensure it doesn't affect the team, but also that the best solution arises for the club and community. Expansion of Anfield might be a cheaper solution.

And the mechanisms for barring applicants or suspending members I mentioned earlier - are there any in place?

That would have to be judged on an individual basis.

Offline RedinExile

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2010, 09:17:52 pm »
Hmmm......sounds like a 'no' x2 that Ricardo

Thanks for being candid though
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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2010, 09:20:43 pm »
Hmmm......sounds like a 'no' x2 that Ricardo

Thanks for being candid though

If you're asking if we do criminal record checks, ask for references or look for LFC tattoos on every member then the answer is we do not.

However if there were issues with a member then we have the power to expel.

Are we missing something about your expectations for membership and admission?
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2010, 09:23:29 pm »
Does SoS have a position on the stadium design? I have reservations about it and there's no question in my mind that it's over-specced and not good value for money. If we want the debt to be manageable does it make sense to build an over-priced monument to Tom Hicks ego?
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Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2010, 09:26:52 pm »
Does SoS have a position on the stadium design? I have reservations about it and there's no question in my mind that it's over-specced and not good value for money. If we want the debt to be manageable does it make sense to build an over-priced monument to Tom Hicks ego?

No official view on design. The thing with the stadium though is the planning permission is there and if they can afford it, it gets built. My personal preference is for expansion of Anfield. Obviously part goes on if this April build start is true. If it isn't, it is something we can push more to ask them what their alternatives are.

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2010, 09:32:02 pm »
No official view on design. The thing with the stadium though is the planning permission is there and if they can afford it, it gets built. My personal preference is for expansion of Anfield. Obviously part goes on if this April build start is true. If it isn't, it is something we can push more to ask them what their alternatives are.

Thanks. Is there anyone in particular who deals with stadium issues? It seems to come under your heading.
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2010, 09:33:00 pm »
All, As you might have guessed its been a busy weekend for the SOS Committee. I know the effort Paul (Ricardo) has put in so we'll stay on here until 10.00pm (UK Time) and then pick up anything left over the next few days.I know Paul and I will cover this thread on other, regular occasions.Thanks for the feedback.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 09:36:21 pm by Graham Smith »
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Offline RedinExile

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2010, 09:34:13 pm »
If you're asking if we do criminal record checks, ask for references or look for LFC tattoos on every member then the answer is we do not.

However if there were issues with a member then we have the power to expel.

Are we missing something about your expectations for membership and admission?

You hadn't said earlier that there is indeed the power to expel. I just wanted confirmation on that and was wondering what the mechanism is. Who decides it, who votes on it, what 'issues' would get you kicked out? Sounds vague.

The relationship with SL also seems wooly - even though SOS are on the committee. The two groups I imagined would be pulling in the same direction in these circumstances, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Is there not a consensus then? Ricardo's post suggests not on this issue.

Thanks

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2010, 09:36:24 pm »
Thanks to you both. Interesting stuff. It changed my vthinking slightly. I might add(and i know it only internet forums) but the hostile 'shouting down' of posters who question protests, SOS, or any other stance of the SOS is not helping. I resent it. I know there not always members and do not repesent you but it does not help at all.
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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2010, 09:39:58 pm »
You hadn't said earlier that there is indeed the power to expel. I just wanted confirmation on that and was wondering what the mechanism is. Who decides it, who votes on it, what 'issues' would get you kicked out? Sounds vague.

Please see Rule 14 at http://www.spiritofshankly.com/constitution.html

The relationship with SL also seems wooly - even though SOS are on the committee. The two groups I imagined would be pulling in the same direction in these circumstances, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Is there not a consensus then? Ricardo's post suggests not on this issue.
Thanks

We do not have members on their Committee. There is a joint coordination Committee that deals with issues of commonality where we have representation.

As Paul has said we are a little frustrated with the speed at which they are moving.
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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2010, 09:42:13 pm »
Thanks to you both. Interesting stuff. It changed my vthinking slightly. I might add(and i know it only internet forums) but the hostile 'shouting down' of posters who question protests, SOS, or any other stance of the SOS is not helping. I resent it. I know there not always members and do not repesent you but it does not help at all.

I suppose it's the same frustration we get when we see people say "it's waste of time", "you're wrong", "what can we actually achieve?"

People who won't listen to other opinions or seek to suppress them are not representing the Committee, Union or majority of the membership.
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Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2010, 09:43:08 pm »
Thanks. Is there anyone in particular who deals with stadium issues? It seems to come under your heading.

Its me. There has been a lot of stuff that we have to work on behind the scenes with this. But will be continuing the work as always. It will be getting split off from Community from AGM though to its own separate role. I will be intending to stay as Community and Youth (Youth getting attached to community instead)

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2010, 09:44:00 pm »
All, As you might have guessed its been a busy weekend for the SOS Committee. I know the effort Paul (Ricardo) has put in so we'll stay on here until 10.00pm (UK Time) and then pick up anything left over the next few days.I know Paul and I will cover this thread on other, regular occasions.Thanks for the feedback.

Reminds me of how much I hate the name Ricardo now. Bad choices were made there. So be it.

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2010, 09:45:02 pm »
I suppose it's the same frustration we get when we see people say "it's waste of time", "you're wrong", "what can we actually achieve?"

People who won't listen to other opinions or seek to suppress them are not representing the Committee, Union or majority of the membership.

agreed. well i will be sorting out my membership i think. thanks again graham and ricardo for this thread. very helpful indeed.
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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2010, 09:45:51 pm »
agreed. well i will be sorting out my membership i think. thanks again graham and ricardo for this thread. very helpful indeed.

No problem. Glad it has been of some use.

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2010, 09:47:45 pm »
Reminds me of how much I hate the name Ricardo now. Bad choices were made there. So be it.

Mods, get him changed to Paul Gardner - Ricardo sounds like the porn star he so clearly isn't.
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Offline RedinExile

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2010, 09:47:56 pm »
Please see Rule 14 at http://www.spiritofshankly.com/constitution.html

We do not have members on their Committee. There is a joint coordination Committee that deals with issues of commonality where we have representation.

As Paul has said we are a little frustrated with the speed at which they are moving.

Thanks Graham, I've put it here in case people can't be arsed looking:

"A member may be expelled for conduct prejudicial to the Union by a resolution carried by a majority of at least two-thirds of those members voting at a General Meeting of the Union of which due notice has been given, provided the grounds for expulsion have been specified in the notices calling the meeting and that the member whose expulsion is to be considered shall be given the opportunity to state his/her case to the meeting. If on due notice having being served the member fails to attend the meeting may proceed in the member’s absence."

As for SL and SOS I'm unclear on what aspects of the stadium/ownership issues are not in unison. Could you just briefly clarify what the debate is or am I misreading something.

Ta again for the time/answers.
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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2010, 09:48:46 pm »
Not really a question, more of an observation. I've seen it on here and a few other sites, people seem to be in agreement with SOS and their aims and have actually benefited from action that the Union have taken, yet they are not members. The SOS Facebook site for example, if only they'd pay their £10, think how much better equipped the Union could be.

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2010, 09:50:25 pm »
Mods, get him changed to Paul Gardner - Ricardo sounds like the porn star he so clearly isn't.

Done    ;)
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Offline TSC

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2010, 09:51:45 pm »
You hadn't said earlier that there is indeed the power to expel. I just wanted confirmation on that and was wondering what the mechanism is. Who decides it, who votes on it, what 'issues' would get you kicked out? Sounds vague.

 



Why the focus on what would get you expelled?  What have you done!

Offline BCCC

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2010, 09:52:44 pm »
What's the SOS view of some form of Safe Standing at the new stadium?
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Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2010, 09:53:19 pm »
Mods, get him changed to Paul Gardner - Ricardo sounds like the porn star he so clearly isn't.

I could be. Flexes muscles. It was a nickname after a certain Jamaican Footballer.

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Spirit of Shankly Q&A
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2010, 09:55:41 pm »
Thanks Graham, I've put it here in case people can't be arsed looking:

"A member may be expelled for conduct prejudicial to the Union by a resolution carried by a majority of at least two-thirds of those members voting at a General Meeting of the Union of which due notice has been given, provided the grounds for expulsion have been specified in the notices calling the meeting and that the member whose expulsion is to be considered shall be given the opportunity to state his/her case to the meeting. If on due notice having being served the member fails to attend the meeting may proceed in the member’s absence."

Cheers, although ironically I expect this to be put to the AGM in February for amendment to make it a bit more user friendly. The principle will stay the same though.

As for SL and SOS I'm unclear on what aspects of the stadium/ownership issues are not in unison. Could you just briefly clarify what the debate is or am I misreading something.

Ta again for the time/answers.

It is more the fact that we as a Union have a broader range of issues that we are focussed upon rather than merely just the fans ownership. For instance, if a fans group got a 10% stake in the Club the Union would not disappear- we'd still be looking to hold owners of any pursuasion to account.
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