Topic: Takumi Minamino

[Ghost Town]

Here is Minamino's heat map for the Brighton game.




He clearly played as an orthodox midfield player and not as an attacker.

You need to forget position and think about roles.

I have yet to see Minamino play a midfield role for us. He doesn't have the attributes

[tubby]

You need to forget position and think about roles.

I have yet to see Minamino play a midfield role for us. He doesn't have the attributes

He's definitely played as one of the two 8s for us, but only fleetingly as he didn't really impress in that position.

[PoetryInMotion]

It is relevant to the discussion because I posted.


You then replied with.

As for stating that Taki has never been a backup midfield player in the Premier League, do you actually watch our games ?

Brighton away.




The really funny thing though is that Jones and Elliott are both players who started their careers further forward but have adapted their games to play in the middle three.

It is evident for any Liverpool fan that he was bought as an attacking player, not as a midfielder. You can show one or two heat maps, it doesn't ever matter because even Gerrard played at RB, that doesn't mean he was a backup RB. Most players would've played out of position in their careers, out of necessity for the team. It doesn't mean they automatically become an option or a backup for that position. Either your understanding is skewed or you're deliberately acting as if to win an argument.

And my reply wasn't for that little piece you conveniently quoted and ignored the rest of your post for which it was applicable. My reply was for the whole piece you posted.

You said players didn't trust him, managers didn't trust him. People gave you counter examples. You somehow twisted them to your liking. You questioned Origi's performance and then in the next post, he somehow became a bench mark for how Taki should play. I did not say Taki cannot play in midfield, I said he's a backup attacker whereas Jones is clearly a midfielder. There are primary positions in football, however you may like to dress it up.

[Ghost Town]

He's definitely played as one of the two 8s for us, but only fleetingly as he didn't really impress in that position.

Actually doing a midfielder's job? As opposed to just being nominally in that position? I'll take your word for it if so; I guess I missed that, and can't really imagine him doing it - especially when he first came here.

[tubby]

Actually doing a midfielder's job? As opposed to just being nominally in that position? I'll take your word for it if so; I guess I missed that, and can't really imagine him doing it - especially when he first came here.

We usually play with one of our two 8s more advanced than the other, that's the role he played.  Only for a couple of games, think Klopp was trying him out there as he wasn't cutting it in our front line.

He hasn't played him there for ages.

[PoetryInMotion]

Actually doing a midfielder's job? As opposed to just being nominally in that position? I'll take your word for it if so; I guess I missed that, and can't really imagine him doing it - especially when he first came here.

It doesn't matter mate. Even if he had played it a few times, it doesn't mean he is a backup for that position. Nobody wants to consider Gomez as a Right Back, just because he played that position.

What he is saying is similar to a scenario, where if Neco played at RB in a game where Gomez did not play, and then him asking us back, who played at RB - Neco or Joe Gomez and then somehow using it bizarrely as an argument to show that Gomez is not good enough or that the players and manager doesn't trust him - all because Neco, who is a RB, started ahead of Gomez (not a RB even if he played there before), who is not a RB. I know it sounds twisted, but that's what it is.

[Eeyore]

We usually play with one of our two 8s more advanced than the other, that's the role he played.  Only for a couple of games, think Klopp was trying him out there as he wasn't cutting it in our front line.

He hasn't played him there for ages.

The two games were Midtyland and Brighton.

[Eeyore]

It is evident for any Liverpool fan that he was bought as an attacking player, not as a midfielder. You can show one or two heat maps, it doesn't ever matter because even Gerrard played at RB, that doesn't mean he was a backup RB. Most players would've played out of position in their careers, out of necessity for the team. It doesn't mean they automatically become an option or a backup for that position. Either your understanding is skewed or you're deliberately acting as if to win an argument.

And my reply wasn't for that little piece you conveniently quoted and ignored the rest of your post for which it was applicable. My reply was for the whole piece you posted.

You said players didn't trust him, managers didn't trust him. People gave you counter examples. You somehow twisted them to your liking. You questioned Origi's performance and then in the next post, he somehow became a bench mark for how Taki should play. I did not say Taki cannot play in midfield, I said he's a backup attacker whereas Jones is clearly a midfielder. There are primary positions in football, however you may like to dress it up.

Firstly I didn't criticise Origi I actually said that if we wanted pace in the wider attacking roles then he would be ahead of Taki. The other thing I said about Origi is that it was a great finish for his goal against Norwich in reply to you stating that Taki must be full of confidence because his goals were equally well taken.

Now you are just tying yourself up in knots. Taki didn't start in midfield as a necessity, we were not down too the bare bones. He started against Brighton ahead of both Hendo and Curtis Jones. Against Midtyland he started in midfield with Gini, Hendo and Curtis on the bench. So quite clearly he was seen at that time as viable option in midfield. 

As for Taki being bought as an attacking player so was Harvey Elliott it doesn't mean they cannot adapt and end up in a different position. As for Curtis Jones clearly being a midfield player he is a converted front three player who broke through playing in one of the wide attacking positions.

[Eeyore]

It doesn't matter mate. Even if he had played it a few times, it doesn't mean he is a backup for that position. Nobody wants to consider Gomez as a Right Back, just because he played that position.

What he is saying is similar to a scenario, where if Neco played at RB in a game where Gomez did not play, and then him asking us back, who played at RB - Neco or Joe Gomez and then somehow using it bizarrely as an argument to show that Gomez is not good enough or that the players and manager doesn't trust him - all because Neco, who is a RB, started ahead of Gomez (not a RB even if he played there before), who is not a RB. I know it sounds twisted, but that's what it is.

Here is what his manager at Salzburg said about where Taki could play for us.


RB Salzburg manager Jesse Marsch believes Takumi Minamino won't be able to compete with Mohamed Salah and Sadio Mane for a place in the starting XI because he is a different kind of player.

"He won’t be the best at playing the position that Salah and Sadio play, because they are used in very explosive transition movements,"

"I think he could be good in Roberto Firmino’s position where against the ball, he is ready to do some pressing, but then with the ball, he comes into almost a No 10 position for build-up and gets in the box to score goals. Firmino is so good at it but I think that’s something Taki can do as well.

"And I think he can play the No 8 position that they play in the midfield, with the two wide spots where he’s ready to press and help pick up balls, but he’s also part of the build-up phases.

"Because he is so intelligent, I think either Firmino or the positions alongside the No 6 in the system that they play in Liverpool would be good for him."

[proudred]

Thought he would play some part in the match. His workrate would have been beneficial during the last 10 minutes.

[sidsaurav]

The two games were Midtyland and Brighton.

Second half vs Norwich in the League cup as well.

[PoetryInMotion]

Here is what his manager at Salzburg said about where Taki could play for us.


RB Salzburg manager Jesse Marsch believes Takumi Minamino won't be able to compete with Mohamed Salah and Sadio Mane for a place in the starting XI because he is a different kind of player.

"He won’t be the best at playing the position that Salah and Sadio play, because they are used in very explosive transition movements,"

"I think he could be good in Roberto Firmino’s position where against the ball, he is ready to do some pressing, but then with the ball, he comes into almost a No 10 position for build-up and gets in the box to score goals. Firmino is so good at it but I think that’s something Taki can do as well.

"And I think he can play the No 8 position that they play in the midfield, with the two wide spots where he’s ready to press and help pick up balls, but he’s also part of the build-up phases.

"Because he is so intelligent, I think either Firmino or the positions alongside the No 6 in the system that they play in Liverpool would be good for him."

Yeah, but can play and being actually played primarily are two different things. The point is so far, he has been played as an attacker more and that includes the Firmino position. If he does work his way through in midfield, it would still prove that his manager and players do trust him in someway, so I don't know who's tying whom on knots   

[PoetryInMotion]

Firstly I didn't criticise Origi I actually said that if we wanted pace in the wider attacking roles then he would be ahead of Taki. The other thing I said about Origi is that it was a great finish for his goal against Norwich in reply to you stating that Taki must be full of confidence because his goals were equally well taken.

Now you are just tying yourself up in knots. Taki didn't start in midfield as a necessity, we were not down too the bare bones. He started against Brighton ahead of both Hendo and Curtis Jones. Against Midtyland he started in midfield with Gini, Hendo and Curtis on the bench. So quite clearly he was seen at that time as viable option in midfield. 

As for Taki being bought as an attacking player so was Harvey Elliott it doesn't mean they cannot adapt and end up in a different position. As for Curtis Jones clearly being a midfield player he is a converted front three player who broke through playing in one of the wide attacking positions.

Out of necessity could also mean rotation. That's the problem with you. You start speaking on behalf of Klopp whenever there's a discussion like this.

As I said, Gomez playing at RB a couple of times, won't mean he is a viable option for RB. Trent, Neco and Bradley are ahead of him at RB. Doesn't say anything about the quality of Gomez.

Maybe Minamino can adapt to a midfield role in future? I haven't said he cannot? So far he's seen as an attacker, because he's been played more as an attacker. Simples.

[Eeyore]

Yeah, but can play and being actually played primarily are two different things. The point is so far, he has been played as an attacker more and that includes the Firmino position. If he does work his way through in midfield, it would still prove that his manager and players do trust him in someway, so I don't know who's tying whom on knots   

No, the point is one minute you are saying that he improved our midfield when he dropped in against Norwich. The next you are saying the reason he isn't playing is that the front four are so good.

If you look at his recent games for us then he is being deployed in midfield as much as he is in the front three.

[him_15]

He deserves to play in the league.

[PoetryInMotion]

No, the point is one minute you are saying that he improved our midfield when he dropped in against Norwich. The next you are saying the reason he isn't playing is that the front four are so good.

If you look at his recent games for us then he is being deployed in midfield as much as he is in the front three.

What? He did improve our midfield in the second half against Norwich? Everyone acknowledges we had more control in the game in the second half and overall he did have a good game. What does that have to do with him being a first team option in midfield? Even last season, Jones started more games in midfield than Minamino, that isn't exactly news, is it? It was one game, where Ox was having a stinker, so Klopp moved Ox forward and saw fit move Minamino to midfield. That's all. You are making insane leaps in terms of inference of a point and then questioning me based on that.

Look at his overall Liverpool stint, tell me where he has played more - in attack or in midfield and then comeback to me. Otherwise, don't bother. He was bought as an attacker. He may or may not evolve into a midfielder which hasn't been the point at all. As of now, he is not playing because he has the best front 4 in the world ahead of him, which is common knowledge by now. Look, you said the manager and players don't trust him, you lost your point right then. You are turning more corners than Ole in this discussion.

[Eeyore]

What? He did improve our midfield in the second half against Norwich? Everyone acknowledges we had more control in the game in the second half and overall he did have a good game. What does that have to do with him being a first team option in midfield? Even last season, Jones started more games in midfield than Minamino, that isn't exactly news, is it? It was one game, where Ox was having a stinker, so Klopp moved Ox forward and saw fit move Minamino to midfield. That's all. You are making insane leaps in terms of inference of a point and then questioning me based on that.

Talk about having a myopic view. How can you possibly analyse us having more control in the second half against Norwich and completely ignore Tyler Morton coming on at half time. As I have said Taki scored two well taken goals but wasn't involved in the game enough for me. Taki made fewer passes in 90 minutes than Morton made in 45 minutes.

Look at his overall Liverpool stint, tell me where he has played more - in attack or in midfield and then comeback to me. Otherwise, don't bother. He was bought as an attacker. He may or may not evolve into a midfielder which hasn't been the point at all. As of now, he is not playing because he has the best front 4 in the world ahead of him, which is common knowledge by now. Look, you said the manager and players don't trust him, you lost your point right then. You are turning more corners than Ole in this discussion.

If the reason he is not playing is because he is behind the best front 4 in the World then please explain why he couldn't nail down a starting place at Southampton. As for trust I would say not being played by the manager and getting so few touches indicates that is true.

The best bit is your assertion that Minamino is purely an attacker and not a midfield player. Right throughout his career he has played at times as a CAM and for me it would be his best position for us.

Others agree https://tribuna.com/en/news/liverpoolfc-2020-06-22-he-is-an-attacking-midfielder-john-barnes-explains-why-takumi-minamino-should-not-be-play/

Previously, Takumi Minamino's former manager Jesse Marsch said that the player is best fitted for the No.8 or the No.10 position, where his talents can be fully utilised.

Liverpool legend John Barnes agrees with RB Salzburg's manager. The former forward discussed Minamino's role on Sky Sports after the 0-0 draw against Everton.

"Minamino is an attacking midfielder or a number 10. When Liverpool play with Salah and Mane out wide, they stay wide or, if they come inside, they’re going to run directly at defenders with pace.

"Minamino hasn’t got that pace, he likes the ball to his feet. So does Firmino, so they’re really doing the same role, and that’s why I’m surprised he (Minamino) played.

"He (Jurgen Klopp) wants to give him time and confidence but the relationship between the two full-backs and the two wide men cannot be underestimated and they haven’t got that yet."

Barnes analysis echoes with something else that Marsch said of his former player: "He's not pure explosive but he understands football, he understands how to make final plays and tactics."

Minamino's pace is not his strongest suit - he is better suited at receiving the ball in the middle of the park and then advancing forward with it while trying to create spaces and chances for his teammates.


For me his best position would be a hybrid 8/10 role in front of a double pivot, the role that Lallana played for us.

[PoetryInMotion]

Morton was a factor, but so was Minamino - this is Minamino's thread hence he is being discussed and not Morton. What is wrong with you mate?

The irony of talking about Myopic view and then comparing him with Morton is shambles. Morton was No. 6, Minamino was not.

[PoetryInMotion]

There could be plenty of reasons why he could not nail a spot at Southampton. He may have struggled to settle, he may not have adjusted to the league and the country yet.

What's important is right now Klopp is giving him the opportunities and he's playing the role he was bought for.

Regarding discussion about his position, I'm not that arsed anymore. He was bought primarily as an attacker, I never said he cannot play in midfield, if I did, why am I praising his midfield display against Norwich in the second half! You're putting words in my mouth and then making absurd claims. I said his primary role for us so far is an attacker. You doubted his quality and said Klopp and the players don't trust him. I'm happy that he's proving you wrong there.

[LiamG]

Nice to see Klopp had  him play in attack when he came on, just to piss Al off

[tubby]

Thought he had a very decent run out today, was buzzing all over the front line and took his goal very well.  Weirdest thing was our players pinging it along the ground to his feet with his back to goal, considering they don't trust him to receive the ball in those situations.

[RyanBabel19]

Thought he had a very decent run out today, was buzzing all over the front line and took his goal very well.  Weirdest thing was our players pinging it along the ground to his feet with his back to goal, considering they don't trust him to receive the ball in those situations.

Agree with this. The passing bits bizarre, happened in his last game too, hopefully the players pull back on that ASAP

[kasperoff]

Nice finish. Hopefully just a long incubation period for him and we will see him kick on. He still seems like his suffering from a bit of imposter syndrome.

[Eeyore]

Thought he had a very decent run out today, was buzzing all over the front line and took his goal very well.  Weirdest thing was our players pinging it along the ground to his feet with his back to goal, considering they don't trust him to receive the ball in those situations.

The pass from Neco for the 3rd goal was a perfect example of that.  as was the pass from Neco to Minamino Origi for the 2nd goal.

[Chakan]

The pass from Neco for the 3rd goal was a perfect example of that.  as was the pass from Neco to Minamino Origi for the 2nd goal.

We only scored 2

[jckliew]

We only scored 2

But but we always score 3 away goals.

[tornado]

January will be key for him, hope he can shine when Mo, Mane are at the AFCON

[Ghost Town]

The pass from Neco for the 3rd goal was a perfect example of that.  as was the pass from Neco to Minamino Origi for the 2nd goal.

That's stretching some, even for you, Mr Stretcho wearing stretch jeans, doin' a stretch in a stretch limo

[RyanBabel19]

The pass from Neco for the 3rd goal was a perfect example of that.  as was the pass from Neco to Minamino Origi for the 2nd goal.

There was no 3rd goal and there was no 'pass' for Origis goal, Williams clearly had a shot which was blocked and fell to Origi

[Funky_Gibbons]

There was no 3rd goal and there was no 'pass' for Origis goal, Williams clearly had a shot which was blocked and fell to Origi

I think the unfounded claim is that we didn’t score the third goal because Williams didn’t trust Minamino so shot himself instead (which is obviously bollocks).

[AndyMuller]

He is a bit of a fox in the box is he not?

[El Lobo]

I think the unfounded claim is that we didn’t score the third goal because Williams didn’t trust Minamino so shot himself instead (which is obviously bollocks).

Oh is that what he was getting at

[RyanBabel19]

I think the unfounded claim is that we didn’t score the third goal because Williams didn’t trust Minamino so shot himself instead (which is obviously bollocks).

Hilarious if so

[Eeyore]

Hilarious if so

Wow you have finally realised it was a light hearted response to a light hearted dig from Tubby in my direction. Well done  .

[thaddeus]

When we signed him wasn't the claim that we'd got a £20m player for £7.5m because of the release clause?  It was shrewd business but the reality is that a £20m forward was never going to compare well to the £50m+ forwards we already had (who had themselves been purchased for between £29m and £36m a few years earlier).

Of course there's room for development - even now he's only 26 - but similar to Origi he's not an obvious like-for-like with any of our existing front three.  From what I've seen he's a wide forward without the pace or strength of Mane or Salah.  When he's played centrally he seems to get dispossessed too easily.

Apparently we had been scouting him for some time so maybe I'm wrong but it seems like we wouldn't have signed him were in not for the release clause.

All that said, he did pretty well last night and again showed his knack for scoring goals.  We're going to need him later in the season barring a surprise 1st January signing that gets thrown straight into the team.

[newterp]

When we signed him wasn't the claim that we'd got a £20m player for £7.5m because of the release clause?  It was shrewd business but the reality is that a £20m forward was never going to compare well to the £50m+ forwards we already had (who had themselves been purchased for between £29m and £36m a few years earlier).

Of course there's room for development - even now he's only 26 - but similar to Origi he's not an obvious like-for-like with any of our existing front three.  From what I've seen he's a wide forward without the pace or strength of Mane or Salah.  When he's played centrally he seems to get dispossessed too easily.

Apparently we had been scouting him for some time so maybe I'm wrong but it seems like we wouldn't have signed him were in not for the release clause.

All that said, he did pretty well last night and again showed his knack for scoring goals.  We're going to need him later in the season barring a surprise 1st January signing that gets thrown straight into the team.

Worth what we paid is essentially what you are saying?

[RyanBabel19]

Wow you have finally realised it was a light hearted response to a light hearted dig from Tubby in my direction. Well done  .

Another goal last night makes it 3 goals in 3 games, We would do well to buy more of these 'simply not good enough' players.

[El Lobo]

Another goal last night makes it 3 goals in 3 games, We would do well to buy more of these 'simply not good enough' players.

Imagine how prolific he could be if his team-mates trusted him and passed to him?

[Eeyore]

Another goal last night makes it 3 goals in 3 games, We would do well to buy more of these 'simply not good enough' players.

To put that into perspective he has scored 3 goals against a 2nd string Norwich team and a 2nd string Preston team this season. Last season he scored 2 against Lincoln City.  So of his 7 career goals for Liverpool 5 have come in the League Cup.


Taki has scored 5 goals in 4 League Cup games for us, 1 in 19 Premier League games and 0 in 6 Champions League games.

To me that suggests what his level is. A decent squad player especially against inferior opposition.

[Eeyore]

Imagine how prolific he could be if his team-mates trusted him and passed to him?

He could easily of had a hat trick last night, if Neco had played him in instead of shooting twice. Then again look at Taki's reaction when he doesn't get a pass, just a shrug of the shoulders. Compare that to Curtis flipping on Mane a far more senior player against United when he didn't get a pass.

If Taki wants to break through at this level then he needs to be confident, demand the ball and make it clear to teammates that they should be passing to him more often. Curtis Jones and Harvey Elliot who are kids have no problem fighting their corner. Could you imagine Taki having the balls to take a set piece ahead of Trent the way Elliot did earlier in the season.