Author Topic: India - deteriorating?  (Read 61600 times)

Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2022, 07:01:35 am »
I don't know. I just have a bad feeling about them.
The only way I judge governments in India is by looking at things like this: https://caravanmagazine.in/caste/how-kejriwal-is-failing-delhis-sewage-workers (If anybody is interested, I can share the article if you message me.)

Since independence, absolutely no party has done anything regarding this. AAP in Delhi on the other hand, engages in some positive PR on this issue, but the ground reality is entirely different as the above article points out. Does the same even now: https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/will-give-sanitation-workers-permanent-posts-arvind-kejriwals-punjab-poll-pitch-2683392

Recent incident: https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/editorials/another-accident-sewer-line-delhi-bares-hazardous-nature-sanitation-work-7846811/

I will also point out that before starting his political career Kejriwal regularly spoke on anti-affirmative action platforms. And honestly, urbanites in Delhi aren't known to be progressive and liberal when it comes to caste. All in all, they are the same as all parties in India have been. Just don't have any blood in their hands YET.

Offline Tobelius

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2022, 07:25:12 am »
Recently watched the Invisible Demons documentary on mostly Delhi,well worth the watch and thought provoking stuff.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/trE3onCi47I" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/trE3onCi47I</a>

Offline west_london_red

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2022, 07:34:54 am »
I don't know. I just have a bad feeling about them.

Based on anything in particular? I really don’t see how they can do a worse job then their predecessors or the BJP.
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Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2022, 07:35:25 am »
Recently watched the Invisible Demons documentary on mostly Delhi,well worth the watch and thought provoking stuff.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/trE3onCi47I" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/trE3onCi47I</a>

Where to watch it?

Offline ScouserAtHeart

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2022, 08:18:34 am »
Based on anything in particular? I really don’t see how they can do a worse job then their predecessors or the BJP.

Well the BJP is a non-entity there. They're not gonna win anything besides a couple of MP seats for a while. How Sunny Deol is a BJP MP, I'll never know. If they wanted power, they never should've broken ties with SAD (same as the Shiv Sena in Maharasthra)

I think Amrinder Singh's under-appreciated. He did a good job holding a border state together.

With AAP, I'm not gonna go into the whole Sidhu Moose Wala thing, that happens in every state. I mean it happens so much in UP it doesn't even make the news anymore.

There was talk before the elections that they were going soft on some of the sepratists in exchange for their support in defeating the Congress, which I just assumed was the usual propoganda. But since they came to power, there's been a lot more examples of Khalistani rallies and flags and stuff showing up on social media. Again, I don't know if this was always the case and it's just more widely publicized now. This is just an outsider's perspective, I'm sure you'll know better.

Also they're as much a cult of personality as the BJP to be honest. It's all about Kejriwal. I know that's true of every single party but I naively thought they'd be different. And Kejriwal isn't exactly a left-liberal either.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2022, 08:54:58 am »
Well the BJP is a non-entity there. They're not gonna win anything besides a couple of MP seats for a while. How Sunny Deol is a BJP MP, I'll never know. If they wanted power, they never should've broken ties with SAD (same as the Shiv Sena in Maharasthra)

I think Amrinder Singh's under-appreciated. He did a good job holding a border state together.

With AAP, I'm not gonna go into the whole Sidhu Moose Wala thing, that happens in every state. I mean it happens so much in UP it doesn't even make the news anymore.

There was talk before the elections that they were going soft on some of the sepratists in exchange for their support in defeating the Congress, which I just assumed was the usual propoganda. But since they came to power, there's been a lot more examples of Khalistani rallies and flags and stuff showing up on social media. Again, I don't know if this was always the case and it's just more widely publicized now. This is just an outsider's perspective, I'm sure you'll know better.

Also they're as much a cult of personality as the BJP to be honest. It's all about Kejriwal. I know that's true of every single party but I naively thought they'd be different. And Kejriwal isn't exactly a left-liberal either.

The farmers laws done for the SAD/BJP, there was never any coming back from that for them in Punjab.

The Captain, I felt a bit sorry for him to be honest but the party should have seen that Navjot Sidhu was always going to be a pain in the arse for the party, he likes the sound of his own voice too much for my liking. But ultimately the Captain came in on a ticket that he would eradicate the drug problem, and he failed, and that above all else is the biggest priority in the state.

I was never a fan of Moosewala, he was a pretty negative influence in my book and if you start playing with fire you get burnt, and I certainly don’t subscribe to the train of thought that blames Mann for removing his security. Your a big star, selling out venues and getting hundreds of millions of hits on YouTube, pay for your own security.

The Khalistani card just gets played all the time. Any time we don’t bend over to the centre the Khalistani card get’s played, it’s exactly what happened during the farmers protest and I certainly wouldn’t pay much attention to it. It’s just a shame that the state and centre don’t spend as much effort keeping an eye on drug peddlers as they do on the Khalistanis. A SIM card comes over the boarder and they are all over it like a flash, 20kg of heroin comes over and no one knows a how it got there.

As for Kejriwal, he wasn’t that prominent to be honest in the state elections especially compared to the last elections in 2017 I think, but then that’s just smart politics as there is always an element of Punjabi arrogance and suspicion of outsiders in our minds (and that includes Modi dressing up as a Sikh as many times as he wants). But more then anything it was fatigue with the SAD and Congress, even an air of desperation that we have to try something else and that there has to be something better.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 08:56:48 am by west_london_red »
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Offline kavah

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2022, 09:40:13 am »
Sorry for going off topic but does anyone know the electric socket type for Chennai? (google give me 3 different answers) - Ta

Offline ScouserAtHeart

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2022, 10:07:39 am »
"Jürgen Klopp is bringing Liverpool's 'fuck you' back. And I can't wait."

Offline kavah

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2022, 10:36:03 am »
^ cheers mate

Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2022, 10:51:05 am »

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2022, 02:22:01 pm »
I mean, that's just the trailer.

Guess I will try to pirate.
Ah, I see. A search seems to indicate that it is available on ITV+, but I am not sure. There is free trial for ITV+.
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2022, 01:51:39 am »
Just to throw in with the political side of things, but India is suffering awfully from the climate crisis

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/14/india-takes-tough-stand-at-climate-talks-as-delhi-endures-brutal-heatwave

Delhi has already recorded over 25 days since summer began (April/May/June) where the temperature has reached over 42C. It keeps going like this, and one of the biggest cities in the world will be literally unlivable in a couple of decades (if it isn´t already).

That has woken the Indian government up to come in hard on climate negotiations - to demand the rich world pay its share of the costs of recovery. This is necessary, and ultimately inevitable if we are to deal with the crisis.

Nevertheless, that hasn´t stopped India from setting a goal of 2070 for reaching carbon neutrality, instead of 2050 - with coal remaining a particular issue.

I don't disagree with your point at all but it did make me snigger to see that the first mention of climate was brought by a Carp! ;D
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Offline Tobelius

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2022, 08:15:42 am »
Where to watch it?

Sorry mate,just watched it on Finnish tv myself,it's propably available elsewhere on all the usual unofficial places as well.Thought it was excellent.

https://areena.yle.fi/1-50270510
« Last Edit: June 18, 2022, 08:26:51 am by Tobelius »

Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2022, 07:47:04 pm »
Sorry mate,just watched it on Finnish tv myself,it's propably available elsewhere on all the usual unofficial places as well.Thought it was excellent.

https://areena.yle.fi/1-50270510
Thank you!

Offline Sangria

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2022, 07:54:53 pm »
The farmers laws done for the SAD/BJP, there was never any coming back from that for them in Punjab.

The Captain, I felt a bit sorry for him to be honest but the party should have seen that Navjot Sidhu was always going to be a pain in the arse for the party, he likes the sound of his own voice too much for my liking. But ultimately the Captain came in on a ticket that he would eradicate the drug problem, and he failed, and that above all else is the biggest priority in the state.

I was never a fan of Moosewala, he was a pretty negative influence in my book and if you start playing with fire you get burnt, and I certainly don’t subscribe to the train of thought that blames Mann for removing his security. Your a big star, selling out venues and getting hundreds of millions of hits on YouTube, pay for your own security.

The Khalistani card just gets played all the time. Any time we don’t bend over to the centre the Khalistani card get’s played, it’s exactly what happened during the farmers protest and I certainly wouldn’t pay much attention to it. It’s just a shame that the state and centre don’t spend as much effort keeping an eye on drug peddlers as they do on the Khalistanis. A SIM card comes over the boarder and they are all over it like a flash, 20kg of heroin comes over and no one knows a how it got there.

As for Kejriwal, he wasn’t that prominent to be honest in the state elections especially compared to the last elections in 2017 I think, but then that’s just smart politics as there is always an element of Punjabi arrogance and suspicion of outsiders in our minds (and that includes Modi dressing up as a Sikh as many times as he wants). But more then anything it was fatigue with the SAD and Congress, even an air of desperation that we have to try something else and that there has to be something better.

The Navjot Singh Sidhu?
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2022, 08:25:32 pm »
The Navjot Singh Sidhu?

Yes, the Navjot Singh Sidhu, Indian cricketer, politician and now jail bird.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2022, 09:48:13 pm »
Yes, the Navjot Singh Sidhu, Indian cricketer, politician and now jail bird.

Looking up his wiki entry, it looks odd. He was convicted in 2022 for a homicide in 1988. Firstly, why was he playing for India despite that? Secondly, how the hell did it take that long to get it to stick?
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2022, 10:54:03 pm »
Looking up his wiki entry, it looks odd. He was convicted in 2022 for a homicide in 1988. Firstly, why was he playing for India despite that? Secondly, how the hell did it take that long to get it to stick?

It’s not something I have followed particularly closely to be honest but there was a lot appeals on both sides, and don’t underestimate the power and influence a former national cricketer and high profile politician can exert on matters in a country like India. The corruption and cronyism in India would make a Tory blush, something like 45% of MP have criminal cases against them, and a high proportion of those are thing like murder and rape, never mind things like bribery etc, half of them are guilty and the ones not guilty are framed by other corrupt politicians and rivals.
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Offline Dancingtillnirvana

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2022, 03:27:27 pm »
A Hindu shop-keeper was beheaded in Rajasthan for supporting Nupur Sharma.

Still no article from the usual suspects that ran front page articles about her "xenophobia": Al Jazeera, WaPo, BBC etc. Just going to pretend it never happened?

The government has rightly ordered a 24 hour blackout to prevent violence from spiraling, wouldn't be surprised if that is twisted to be "repression of democracy and speech"


https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/hindu-shopkeeper-beheaded-udaipur-rajasthan-social-media-post-nupur-sharma-1967778-2022-06-28

Offline west_london_red

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2022, 04:11:27 pm »
A Hindu shop-keeper was beheaded in Rajasthan for supporting Nupur Sharma.

Still no article from the usual suspects that ran front page articles about her "xenophobia": Al Jazeera, WaPo, BBC etc. Just going to pretend it never happened?

The government has rightly ordered a 24 hour blackout to prevent violence from spiraling, wouldn't be surprised if that is twisted to be "repression of democracy and speech"


https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/hindu-shopkeeper-beheaded-udaipur-rajasthan-social-media-post-nupur-sharma-1967778-2022-06-28

Believe it or not, Napur Sharma was not front page on the BBC or anything even close to that and I suspect anyone in this country without some link to India or a very keen interest in Asian current affairs would know anything about her, what she said or the reaction to it.
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Offline Dancingtillnirvana

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2022, 04:36:17 pm »
Believe it or not, Napur Sharma was not front page on the BBC or anything even close to that and I suspect anyone in this country without some link to India or a very keen interest in Asian current affairs would know anything about her, what she said or the reaction to it.

It was on the home page when the incident happened. CNN has a article on a journalist being arrested on it's home page right now which has a wink-nudge in the headline implying it is because of "Islamaphobia". Still nothing on this story

Also, on another note, does "Asian" refer to the sub-continent in the UK? Most places in the world I've been to refer Asian as a catch-all phrase for Chinese, Japanese etc

Offline Sangria

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2022, 04:43:11 pm »
Question: how common are liberals and liberalism in India? They are a small minority in China and an even smaller minority in Russia. They're practically non-existent in Muslim countries on pain of death. How about India?

I'm asking because I saw an article from an agency based in Mumbai, who seem to embody liberalism. Is there a homegrown liberal tradition, or do they mostly look abroad for direction?
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2022, 07:03:10 pm »
It was on the home page when the incident happened. CNN has a article on a journalist being arrested on it's home page right now which has a wink-nudge in the headline implying it is because of "Islamaphobia". Still nothing on this story

Also, on another note, does "Asian" refer to the sub-continent in the UK? Most places in the world I've been to refer Asian as a catch-all phrase for Chinese, Japanese etc

Maybe you get different front page from the one we do but it wasn’t news here at all, I only read about it on the BBC Punjabi Facebook feed and that was because more about the reaction in the Arab world. If every time someone in the BJP said something stupid was front page news, it would become a permanent fixture.

As for the journalist being arrested, I read about that earlier, wasn’t clear what he was arrested for other then he was accused of saying posting something anti-Hindu on Twitter years ago, whether it’s as bad as what the BJP seems to get away with saying about Muslims will be interesting.

Yes, I’m the UK the term Asian is generally used to describe people from the Subcontinent unlike in the US where it’s used to describe people from the Far East.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2022, 07:17:43 pm »
Question: how common are liberals and liberalism in India? They are a small minority in China and an even smaller minority in Russia. They're practically non-existent in Muslim countries on pain of death. How about India?

I'm asking because I saw an article from an agency based in Mumbai, who seem to embody liberalism. Is there a homegrown liberal tradition, or do they mostly look abroad for direction?

Yes liberalism exists in India but it’s a generally the domain of the wealthier, well educated, metropolitan elite but even within that narrow group most of them are probably not liberals. But for most of the population, they are poor, poorly educated, and rural so pretty conservative in nature. And while we all know what the BJP is like, we also shouldn’t assume the opposition Congress are anything other then marginally more accepting of criticism or any more liberal.
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Offline Dancingtillnirvana

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2022, 03:10:55 am »
Maybe you get different front page from the one we do but it wasn’t news here at all

I wouldn't be surprised if they are personalizing content based on user history and location

However, the fact remains they ran that story on the English language website. I went searching for the story again today morning and it still hasn't been published (24 hours later). It's pretty much the biggest story in India right now.

Offline Dancingtillnirvana

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2022, 03:27:14 am »
Question: how common are liberals and liberalism in India? They are a small minority in China and an even smaller minority in Russia. They're practically non-existent in Muslim countries on pain of death. How about India?

I'm asking because I saw an article from an agency based in Mumbai, who seem to embody liberalism. Is there a homegrown liberal tradition, or do they mostly look abroad for direction?

I'm mostly definitely wrong and an academic is probably better placed to answer this but my take on it so far :

The history and hilosophy of Hinduism is vast and people are only just getting started exploring it. There are/were sects of Hinduism that would fit the definition of "liberalism" culturally.

Politically, it might be a bit more complex. Ram Lohia was of the opinion that Hinduism has always existed in a state of struggle between "Liberal Hinduism" and "Fundamental Hinduism" and that the great Indian empires (Mauryan empire and Gupta dynasty) overlapped when "Liberal Hinduism" had the upper hand. Luckily, THE Hindu treatise on political philosophy (So far) - the Arthashastra was written during the Mauryan empire so you can pick up the English translation of that and make of it what you will

Some other names that keep popping up are Ram Mohan Roy and Dr B.R. Ambedkar. I have not read their works so can't comment on them

Mainstream "liberalism" now aligns with what West London Red said, it's the domain of a small elite and they get their direction from whatever takes place in America which is why it has been a bit easy for the Right to smash through them. Concepts like "intersectionalism" etc are loosely thrown around in a ham-fisted way to make it relevant to India

To understand how the English speaking "liberals" of India think you can just follow scroll.in and other similar websites. To understand the other side you can look up anything by people like Sai Deepak. To understand the real heartbeat of the nation you'd have to find English translations of Hindi newspapers like Dainik Jagran. The caveat obviously being that Hindi won't represent the Southern states or West Bengal who have their own thing going on in their own languages

Can you share the article you came across?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 03:33:02 am by Dancingtillnirvana »

Offline Garrus

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2022, 06:21:58 am »
Question: how common are liberals and liberalism in India? They are a small minority in China and an even smaller minority in Russia. They're practically non-existent in Muslim countries on pain of death. How about India?

I'm asking because I saw an article from an agency based in Mumbai, who seem to embody liberalism. Is there a homegrown liberal tradition, or do they mostly look abroad for direction?
Overall, I'd say definitely more liberal than immediate neighbours and more liberal than a nation like Russia where basically no one can go against Putin. Still a very loose definition of liberal as there are some stupid laws whereby you don't have absolute freedom of speech and you need to walk on egg shells when it comes to religion (I'm talking about both sides here. The people who are happy to insult the other would be up in arms the other way round).

As for the people, if you grow up in a big city you're likely to have a somewhat liberal upbringing considering each big city in India is pretty multicultural and you'll mingle with people of different faiths, backgrounds and cultures. Obviously this doesn't happen in the smaller towns and villages.

It also helps that the majority religion isn't as strict as some others. Of course this means that there's a broad church that encompasses some really nutty elements.

Offline west_london_red

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2022, 08:36:08 am »
Overall, I'd say definitely more liberal than immediate neighbours and more liberal than a nation like Russia where basically no one can go against Putin. Still a very loose definition of liberal as there are some stupid laws whereby you don't have absolute freedom of speech and you need to walk on egg shells when it comes to religion (I'm talking about both sides here. The people who are happy to insult the other would be up in arms the other way round).

As for the people, if you grow up in a big city you're likely to have a somewhat liberal upbringing considering each big city in India is pretty multicultural and you'll mingle with people of different faiths, backgrounds and cultures. Obviously this doesn't happen in the smaller towns and villages.

It also helps that the majority religion isn't as strict as some others. Of course this means that there's a broad church that encompasses some really nutty elements.

I think the other question which needs to be considered is the direction of travel, and unfortunately right now it feels the direction of travel is very much away from liberalism, but then that’s not unique to India unfortunately, the world in general seems to be becoming more tribal and more inward looking.
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Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2022, 12:07:39 am »
To understand the other side you can look up anything by people like Sai Deepak.
lol, if he actually understood his own side properly, he wouldn't have Sai in his name.  ;)

Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2022, 12:12:01 am »
As for the people, if you grow up in a big city you're likely to have a somewhat liberal upbringing considering each big city in India is pretty multicultural and you'll mingle with people of different faiths, backgrounds and cultures. Obviously this doesn't happen in the smaller towns and villages.
Illiberal parties sweep parliamentary or state polls more often than not in big cities.

In fact, the best arguments and support for liberalism comes from rural areas if you ask me.

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« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 12:24:03 am by Bullet500 »

Offline Garrus

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2022, 08:06:23 am »
Illiberal parties sweep parliamentary or state polls more often than not in big cities.

In fact, the best arguments and support for liberalism comes from rural areas if you ask me.
Most parties in India are illiberal plus voting isn't going to accurately reflect the views given the poor turnouts and the difficulty in having to change your constituency every time you move somewhere which is the case for a lot of people in big cities.


Offline Dancingtillnirvana

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2022, 11:42:41 am »
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-61976836

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/29/hindu-tailor-murdered-in-indias-udaipur-over-prophet-remarks-row

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hindu-mans-slaying-stokes-tensions-in-indian-city/2022/06/29/1bfd7ba8-f764-11ec-81db-ac07a394a86b_story.html

Glad they finally published it, took them long enough. Seems their systems which managed to report the Zubair arrest in under 1 hour failed them here

Are turnouts poor? What do they average and how does it compare to other countries that have elections ?

Offline Garrus

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Offline Dancingtillnirvana

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2022, 02:40:32 pm »
The numbers I am seeing for the 2019 elections had 911 million registered voters with a 67% turn-out. Seems "healthy" enough

Maybe registration issues are for state and ward level elections?

Offline Garrus

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2022, 04:34:12 pm »
The numbers I am seeing for the 2019 elections had 911 million registered voters with a 67% turn-out. Seems "healthy" enough

Maybe registration issues are for state and ward level elections?
Nope, there are issues for general elections too. An uncle of mine changed cities two months leading up to the 2019 election and applied to change his voting location. His request was approved in 2021. Voting should be made a lot easier than it is currently.

Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #77 on: June 30, 2022, 06:38:33 pm »
Glad they finally published it, took them long enough. Seems their systems which managed to report the Zubair arrest in under 1 hour failed them here

Are turnouts poor? What do they average and how does it compare to other countries that have elections ?
Don't have the time to check the time for everything, you can stick to it and may be post a research paper on 'western/arab bias in reporting on India'. But the kind of whataboutism you are doing works really well for propaganda, I won't deny that. That said, these are different things. One is political vendetta by a ruling govt. The other is a killing by extremist citizens. The law is only taking its due course only in the latter. ;)

Offline Bullet500

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2022, 06:47:49 pm »
Most parties in India are illiberal plus voting isn't going to accurately reflect the views given the poor turnouts and the difficulty in having to change your constituency every time you move somewhere which is the case for a lot of people in big cities.
Voting turnout is alright these days; you can check the recent numbers for Lok Sabha and compare them with recent numbers of UK/US.

Difficulty in changing the constituency? Easy if you have an address proof, which I agree, the poor usually don't. Time taken? Yes, that's erratic.

One issue which very well exists is this: https://twocircles.net/2019mar21/430234.html
« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 06:53:06 pm by Bullet500 »

Offline Dancingtillnirvana

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Re: India - deteriorating?
« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2022, 09:31:30 pm »
It's not "whataboutism" if a bias exists  and has an impact on how they report or don't report the reality of what is happening on the ground

Where is the link to his study? Hopefully it's not going to be anything like that Equality Labs study that published a whole piece and got funding of the back of that only for their methodology revealed to be questionable at best when they finally released it