Topic: India - deteriorating?

[west_london_red]

Does it matter?

It must matter otherwise you would have said who it was.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

It must matter otherwise you would have said who it was.

Which is exactly why i didn't.

Argue the point. Should there be differential laws based on religion, governing things like inheritance, marriage, separation, legal age of consent, property rights etc?

How does it matter which group is it?  Does your position change based on which group is it?

[Max_powers]

But steering back to India, I think this nationalism is just a phase with Modi. In the cycle of leaderships from history, there have been 2 or 3 inspiring leaders in succession and then another 2 or 3 dudheads. With India gaining independence just 75 years ago, there have been 67 years of dudheads who did the bare minimum to advance Indian interests on an international stage but regularly fell victim to international bluff. Thats why Indias biggest achilles heel was its colonialism history. The leaders did little to steer India out of that mindset, which is probably why India was still developing after 68 years of independence. Thats nearly 1 generation of birth and death. India could've achieved a lot more if the leaders were proactive and forward thinking. With Modi, its more of a catchup game on the international stage.

Modi certainly has his ups and downs but one thing I have noticed and felt is that the "feel" of colonial history is less today as it was 10 years ago under Dr. Singh. Modi has certainly made India more self confident, more independent and more dominant on the international stage, which they should be. 1.4b population, 5th largest economy in the world (and poised to be 3rd biggest in 2032), India needs to be more assertive and dominant. I dont see a problem with that.

The part where I have a problem with Modi is when he enacts policies that advance Indias interests without setting a narrative. He should be patient and tell his cabinet to be more controlled with their words. He should be aggressive enough without marginalising any section of society. Thats where he has failed miserably and made it look like India is turning authoritarian.

Disagree very much with you. Nationalism is not a phase for Modi, he is not a teenager going through an emo phase. Look at his history in Politics. He has been at it for his whole career. Strong ties with RSS go back decades. Gujarat riots happened months after he got in a position of power.

Also, India's problem is nothing to do with having dull leaders. In fact, I would argue that's the least of its problem. They have had a PM who drank their own piss ok?

Love them or hate them but from independence under Nehru to the 1990s India pretty much followed an anti-colonial foreign policy. It was a leader in the non-aligned movement. It was one of few countries that navigated the cold war without yielding much to the great powers. It was paving its own path foreign policy-wise.

The big problem has been entrenched corruption domestically and populist politics that focus on the next election and with false or unsustainable promises. Modi has not done anything to address that.

On the economic side too, the conditions are not great. Especially for young people. Young educated people are leaving the country at a high rate because it's very hard to get a job unless you have connections with powerful people. I have many friends who left in the past 4-5 years.

The self-confidence you talk about is mostly bravado and faux nationalism. I think there was real optimism with economy and the direction of the country in early 2000s and maybe early 2010s too but now many are quite doom and gloom. Even most Modi supporters spend most of their time arguing about how the Hindus are in danger and arguing about kings from 400 years ago rather than talk about the glorious future of the country.

[west_london_red]

Which is exactly why i didn't.

Argue the point. Should there be differential laws based on religion, governing things like inheritance, marriage, separation, legal age of consent, property rights etc?

How does it matter which group is it?  Does your position change based on which group is it?

I don’t really disagree with you, I just found it interesting use of language. Not sure where your from, but over here where people use terms like “certain sections” it’s quite often to try and hide someone’s prejudices for example right wingers over here will talk about crime and say it’s the fault of “certain sections” which is usually code for its all the fault of black people.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

I don’t really disagree with you, I just found it interesting use of language. Not sure where your from, but over here where people use terms like “certain sections” it’s quite often to try and hide someone’s prejudices for example right wingers over here will talk about crime and say it’s the fault of “certain sections” which is usually code for its all the fault of black people.

It was deliberate, to avoid an unnecessary digression towards a different discussion that has nothing to do with my point.

My original point was that a fully functioning democracy based on a secular constitution should not have laws derived from religious beliefs, especially those that seriously undermine women's rights.

 

[Bullet500]

India needs to start by bringing in a uniform civil code to begin with.


The fact that for a certain section of the population, 15 year old girls are allowed to marry and have kids, polgamy is permissible and practiced and women have limited inheritance rights in a modern secular democracy is farcical.  Regressive does not even begin to describe it.

I definitely do agree on this. Like I said, we shouldn't tolerate anybody's bad habits legally.

But one thing I must say is that most people who try to propose uniform civil code are simply dogwhistling against certain legally sanctioned Muslim bad habits while forgetting their own legally sanctioned bad habits.

Just to give en example, though polygamy is legally sanctioned only for Muslims everywhere and for Hindus (bigamy) only in Goa, its prevalence is pretty much equal across the two religions. https://scroll.in/article/669083/muslim-women-and-the-surprising-facts-about-polygamy-in-india (Only read the data, not the article)

[ChaChaMooMoo]

snip

Thats ok mate. Feel free to disagree. Thats how we grow as an individual and I am not a bhakt to explore silencing people who oppose my views

The nationalism I am talking about is from Indias perspective not Modis perspective. For 67 years, India was just another 3rd world nation - good food, people shitting on the streets, slums, poverty, corruption, dancing and singing. Since 1991 that view is totally reversed when FDI was opened up. Economy grew and Indians were seen as hard working, brilliant and adaptable. Today India is the 5th largest economy in the world. 70% of Indias population under 20 years. They are already on route to become the 3rd largest economy in the world behind USA and China. If they are able to leverage this properly, they could be the 2nd largest economy in the world. They are to China what Canada are to the USA. Underdogs in that region.

Now tell me one leader from anywhere in the world who would not put their nations interest above all else? India did not have such a strong leader until 2014. Well Indra Gandhi and Narasimha Rao probably. Domestic success was there. But Internationally? Internationally they were massive clusterfucks of epic proportions.

As to your point about the massive foreign exodus, that has always been the case. I hate talking about these individuals but even Nehru, Mohandas Gandhi and  Rajiv Gandhi went abroad to study. Well with globalisation on the rise, companies wanting to move away from China, a young and upcoming population, India is well positioned to attract talent for the next 50 years. Tell me thats not true. And like it or not, Dr. Singh (1st term) and Modi are the architects of this. India is today home to 3rd largest startup ecosystem in the world. Dr. Singh did fuckall here. Modi atleast does something. It will improve I am sure.

There was real optimism in the early 2000s and early 2010s? Well yes there was because the entire world was doing well and coming out of Y2K and 2008 recession. It was no surprise that even Russia and Brazil were doing well. Today however its different. India needs to leverage its advantages and become self reliant for the next 50 years. If China cannot be trusted, there has to be an alternative on a global scale. Like it or not, Production, manufacturing, software, finance and technology is shifting to Asia. And India is showing the world that they can be the ethical reliable partners that they can be. Now with Modi, he is doing all that on an international stage.

With nationalism being a faux and bravado, I think its necessary and what India has missed in 75 years since Independence. I would go 1 step further and say that India needs to be more aggressive and more dominating on an international stage. I will never agree with marginalising the minorities or silencing of critics. Its a thorn in an otherwise rose plant. Or should I say, lotus plant.

But to end it on a positive note, India is the only nation in the world where there is national holidays for hindus, muslims, christians and jains alike.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

India needs to start by bringing in a uniform civil code to begin with.

200% agree with this.

[Bullet500]

Tell me thats not true. And like it or not, Dr. Singh (1st term) and Modi are the architects of this. India is today home to 3rd largest startup ecosystem in the world. Dr. Singh did fuckall here. Modi atleast does something. It will improve I am sure.

Sure lots of fancy start-ups burning VC money, but overall it has been a jobless economy growth for India in recent years.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-15/why-india-s-world-beating-growth-isn-t-creating-jobs-quicktake

Even the larger ones that I can name are from ~10 years ago and all they do is create an exploitative gig economy.

If I were to say name one person who has actually done something in this govt, it is Gadkari.

[west_london_red]

I definitely do agree on this. Like I said, we shouldn't tolerate anybody's bad habits legally.

But one thing I must say is that most people who try to propose uniform civil code are simply dogwhistling against certain legally sanctioned Muslim bad habits while forgetting their own legally sanctioned bad habits.

Just to give en example, though polygamy is legally sanctioned only for Muslims everywhere and for Hindus (bigamy) only in Goa, its prevalence is pretty much equal across the two religions. https://scroll.in/article/669083/muslim-women-and-the-surprising-facts-about-polygamy-in-india (Only read the data, not the article)

My Grandfather did just that. My grandmother couldn’t have any more kids after my mum was born, my grandfather ‘needed’ to have a son so as soon as my mum was married he went back to India and took another wife little older then his daughter so she could give he the son he so craved.

Ironically, my mums half brother got married and divorced very quickly (part of which I suspect was the mental issues of growing up in a messed up house), has no kids and refuses to get married again. So despite all of the bullshit and lives my grandfather fucked up, the only grandchildren he’s ever going to have are me and my brother from his daughter.

[Max_powers]

I definitely do agree on this. Like I said, we shouldn't tolerate anybody's bad habits legally.

But one thing I must say is that most people who try to propose uniform civil code are simply dogwhistling against certain legally sanctioned Muslim bad habits while forgetting their own legally sanctioned bad habits.

Just to give en example, though polygamy is legally sanctioned only for Muslims everywhere and for Hindus (bigamy) only in Goa, its prevalence is pretty much equal across the two religions. https://scroll.in/article/669083/muslim-women-and-the-surprising-facts-about-polygamy-in-india (Only read the data, not the article)

Correct. I have no issues with the secular uniform civil code either but it has to just be that uniform.

You can't do this and also try to police what people eat and lynch people for eating beef. I won't list them all but there are plenty of examples of this government not striving for equality but for oppression or exclusion (see CAA, Delhi Riots, cow lynching's etc)

[Max_powers]

I am not judging you mate. You are much more civil and better at putting your argument forward than our banned friend.

On the issue of International policy. I don't think Modi has done fuck-all to change anything for the better. Let's see. Since 2014 China has continued cross-border skirmishes if not escalated them, Modi did nothing other than ban Tiktok. Terrorist attacks still an ongoing threat.

Relationships with almost all neighbouring countries are worse now than in 2014 often due to really stupid reasons (See Nepal earthquake cluster fuck). US relations are lukewarm due to the rising authoritarian streak.

In terms of building a strong economy, most start-ups of the past 8 years are really exploitative, unprofitable, and uncreative and no one uses these businesses outside of India. In general, the wealth has been hoarded by a few big business conglomerates that are friendly to the government. India's brightest and best are leaving and in general its a terrible place to be a young university graduate.

 

[Bullet500]

Correct. I have no issues with the secular uniform civil code either but it has to just be that uniform.

You can't do this and also try to police what people eat and lynch people for eating beef. I won't list them all but there are plenty of examples of this government not striving for equality but for oppression or exclusion (see CAA, Delhi Riots, cow lynching's etc)

These are the main talking points: https://twitter.com/AdvAshutoshBJP/status/1562869708403412992

[ChaChaMooMoo]

I am not judging you mate. You are much more civil and better at putting your argument forward than our banned friend.

On the issue of International policy. I don't think Modi has done fuck-all to change anything for the better. Let's see. Since 2014 China has continued cross-border skirmishes if not escalated them, Modi did nothing other than ban Tiktok. Terrorist attacks still an ongoing threat.

Relationships with almost all neighbouring countries are worse now than in 2014 often due to really stupid reasons (See Nepal earthquake cluster fuck). US relations are lukewarm due to the rising authoritarian streak.

In terms of building a strong economy, most start-ups of the past 8 years are really exploitative, unprofitable, and uncreative and no one uses these businesses outside of India. In general, the wealth has been hoarded by a few big business conglomerates that are friendly to the government. India's brightest and best are leaving and in general its a terrible place to be a young university graduate.

Relationships with Indias neighbours has been the most positive since a long time mainly because of vaccine diplomacy, debt trap of the Chinese and trade. I dont know how you can see otherwise. Pakistan and Sri Lanka are probably the only exception but thats because they are in bed together with China. Sri Lanka is already fucked beyond repair. IIRC Pakistan were already there in the mid of 2021 and China helped them out.

As with Chinese terrorism on the JK front and Arunachal Pradesh front, its nothing new. Thats what they do. They have terrirorial disputes with Japan, Russia, South Korea, Mongolia and everyone associated with the 9 dash line. Its nothing new. Until now India defended its territorial integrity. With surgical strikes, India has shown that they wont stop within their borders to neutralise a threat. They are closer than ever with Russia and I dont think Russia will do anything that will antagonise China, and vice versa. So yeah they do make a lot of noises, but they are just noises.

Banning tiktok? India banned 150+ apps and softwares across three phases that had links with the CCP. Tiktok is just one of them. Camscanner was one of them. They banned all cheap imported Chinese phones below 15k rupees. India has been a bit slow to react in that aspect but thats how geo politics work. They cannot make a decision today and enact them tomorrow and repeal them day after. It took time but they did it. The companies lost out on gathering data from close to 850m people. And now cheap Chinese phones as well.

As for startups burning VCs money and being unprofitable, uncreative and not doing businesses outside of India. You do realise that running a business that caters to the need of 1b+ people is itself a monster market right? Europe and USA put together dont have the population of India. Its already challenging as it is. Well sure global ambitions is fine and all that. But I dont think limiting to just Indian market is a bad thing as you make it out to be. Also, 90% of all start ups fail and/or are uncreative. They are uninspiring. Thats how it is.

I may not be a Modi butt kisser like the other dude but what Modi has done to uplift Indias image domestically and internationally (with some exceptions) has to be applauded. I genuinely cant think of any other leader who would've done so much for India with so much baggage attached. His PR needs fine tuning definitely and BJP still needs to learn to set a narrative and act with strategic patience - for both domestic issues and international issues. And, for crying out loud, allow criticism and not try and silence dissidents and/or minorities. India has the potential to be the best run real democracy in the world. All it needs is a little fine tuning.

[west_london_red]

I may not be a Modi butt kisser like the other dude but what Modi has done to uplift Indias image domestically and internationally (with some exceptions) has to be applauded. I genuinely cant think of any other leader who would've done so much for India with so much baggage attached. His PR needs fine tuning definitely and BJP still needs to learn to set a narrative and act with strategic patience - for both domestic issues and international issues. And, for crying out loud, allow criticism and not try and silence dissidents and/or minorities. India has the potential to be the best run real democracy in the world. All it needs is a little fine tuning.

I’m not so sure about India’s image being improved internationally (at least in the West), it’s definitely changed under Modi but it’s hard to say whether it’s improved because of what’s been allowed to pass domestically has caught a lot of peoples attention internationally, and then there is the whole Russia situation for which there was no easy answer for India due to its long standing friendship with Russia. A lot of lines may well be redrawn across the world between the West on one side and Russia & China on the other and it will be interesting to see where India puts itself.

[ScouserAtHeart]

I don't think we'll pick sides and we don't have to. We're too big a market for anyone to sanction.

Look at what happened after the 98 nuclear tests and how there were immediate sanctions. Now India's buying oil from Russia, swapping the labels and selling it to Europe, and been caught doing that as well, but besides some strong words, no one's doing anything because they can't afford to.

[Bullet500]

Anyone who genuinely believes that "India's image has improved under this govt" or tends to be extremely conscious about "India's image" in general is a reactionary moron.

Whatever is happening in India does not improve a country's image. On the contrary, it destroys it.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Great reaction there mate. Calling me a reactionary moron.

You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. I live and work in Germany and travel to 5 European countries and the USA professionally. I see whats happening on the professional world. I see how this is today compared to what it was 10 years ago. I am not going to blindly love him or hate him just because he is Modi. I think I have made that abundantly clear.

BTW, lets not go into name calling alright? I am pretty sure you are mature enough to understand that it doesnt help anyone if I start doing the same. If not, then atleast you now know.

[Bullet500]

I just called a spade a spade and it's a general statement - you don't have to consider it specifically for you as you haven't been named. I am simply pointing out that "image conscious" line of thought is prevalent among reactionaries. Parallel examples would be Boris supporters and Trump supporters. They definitely think that UK and US image went upwards under these leaders.

No one's hating Modi because he is Modi. It's all about what the govt is doing. Heck, Vajpayee despite his earlier demolition speeches was a pretty decent prime minister.

[Bullet500]

Meanwhile, problems continue for the opposition: https://www.deccanherald.com/national/national-politics/ghulam-nabi-azad-quits-congress-says-party-run-by-sycophants-1139466.html

[west_london_red]

Kicking off in Leicester over the last couple of nights between Hindus and Muslims, each side blaming the other obviously and no idea who started it, although I did see one disturbing clip of someone jumping up on the wall of a mandir and pulling down its flag with a cheering crowd and the old bill there helplessly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-62946146

[Bullet500]

I searched "leicester hindu muslim" on YouTube and found several propaganda videos.

Immigrants from the subcontinent will take this nonsense global. I think this is just a start.

Caste discrimination is global already and no, it's not particular to only one religion in practice. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-61241849

[Roopy]

It's actually quite astonishing.

Anyone who is opposed to the Modi/Hindutva ideology is immediately labelled 'Pro Pak, Pro China & funded by external forces wishing harm on India' - without a single shred of evidence.

You will see this being said on almost every comment section on articles discussing this.

Also - Kangana Ranaut can get fucked.

[ScouserAtHeart]

It's actually quite astonishing.

Anyone who is opposed to the Modi/Hindutva ideology is immediately labelled 'Pro Pak, Pro China & funded by external forces wishing harm on India' - without a single shred of evidence.

You will see this being said on almost every comment section on articles discussing this.

Yeah that seems to be the case everywhere. It's like everyone has the same playbook

[kloppismydad]

Yeah that seems to be the case everywhere. It's like everyone has the same playbook

Steve Bannon's playbook.

[Fromola]

I searched "leicester hindu muslim" on YouTube and found several propaganda videos.

Immigrants from the subcontinent will take this nonsense global. I think this is just a start.

Caste discrimination is global already and no, it's not particular to only one religion in practice. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-61241849

The joys of religion.

[west_london_red]

Yeah that seems to be the case everywhere. It's like everyone has the same playbook

Steve Bannon's playbook.

The Protestants, the Catholics, the Jews, the Muslims, the left, the victim changes but the methods is as old as time itself I’d suggest.

[Nobby Reserve]

Hindutva fascism.

Fundamentalist Islamism.

Two sides of the same rancid coin.

[So… Howard Philips]

Steve Bannon's playbook.

I think this particular fracas well pre-dates Bannon.

At least this isn’t two nuclear powers kicking off over Kashmir again.

[Nobby Reserve]

People have a propensity to grasp hold of things that create differences between them and other groups...

...and there'll always be scumbags who exploit that for their own political/financial ends. Create emnity amongst the plebs, frequently to distract said plebs from noticing the immense wealth inequality and thinking 'hang on a minute...'.

[Too early for flapjacks?]

Was speaking to someone who has family in Leicester and apparently the two communities have lived broadly peacefully side by side over the the last few decades but their has been an increase in young men emigrating to the local community from India in recent times who have have been stoking up hostility.

[Machae]

Was speaking to someone who has family in Leicester and apparently the two communities have lived broadly peacefully side by side over the the last few decades but their has been an increase in young men emigrating to the local community from India in recent times who have have been stoking up hostility.

Yeah pretty much what I've heard from various people. Leicester has a rich mix of communities from Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims whilst theres been the odd skirmishes, its never really been an issue until the rise of the BJP in India and local migration to the city

[west_london_red]

Was speaking to someone who has family in Leicester and apparently the two communities have lived broadly peacefully side by side over the the last few decades but their has been an increase in young men emigrating to the local community from India in recent times who have have been stoking up hostility.

That seems to be the story circulating on Social Media but as I said before, India may be moving in a very worrying and intolerant direction and we rightfully discuss and condemn that on here, but let’s not pretend that Pakistan is some hotbed of tolerance and supporter of minorities either so I wouldn’t assume it’s all the fault of the Hindus either.

[Machae]

That seems to be the story circulating on Social Media but as I said before, India may be moving in a very worrying and intolerant direction and we rightfully discuss and condemn that on here, but let’s not pretend that Pakistan is some hotbed of tolerance and supporter of minorities either so I wouldn’t assume it’s all the fault of the Hindus either.

That may be true, but Leicester are predominantly Indian Muslims rather than Pakistanis

[Red-Soldier]

That seems to be the story circulating on Social Media but as I said before, India may be moving in a very worrying and intolerant direction and we rightfully discuss and condemn that on here, but let’s not pretend that Pakistan is some hotbed of tolerance and supporter of minorities either so I wouldn’t assume it’s all the fault of the Hindus either.

The Mayor said it's been stoked up on social media and most of the trouble makers are from Birmingham.

[Bullet500]

Statement by Indian High Commission in UK: https://twitter.com/HCI_London/status/1571805409060462593

[RainbowFlick]

That seems to be the story circulating on Social Media but as I said before, India may be moving in a very worrying and intolerant direction and we rightfully discuss and condemn that on here, but let’s not pretend that Pakistan is some hotbed of tolerance and supporter of minorities either so I wouldn’t assume it’s all the fault of the Hindus either.

i don't think anybody is saying that though but we can focus on our own communities. there is definitely a growing number of BJP migrants lately with pretty extremist views which are essentially propped up by settled generations and organisations in this country either being apathetic to it all or silently holding pro-BJP/anti muslim sentiment.

that doesn't ignore that there will be pakistani muslims with extremist views too which add to the tension.

[RainbowFlick]

Statement by Indian High Commission in UK: https://twitter.com/HCI_London/status/1571805409060462593

even this statement is silently saying Indian=Hindu lol. you can even see how this will spread further misinformation just looking at the comments/replies.

just a really desperate situation all round and some pathetic leaders being asked to take control of it all

[Bullet500]

even this statement is silently saying Indian=Hindu lol. you can even see how this will spread further misinformation just looking at the comments/replies.

just a really desperate situation all round and some pathetic leaders being asked to take control of it all

Exactly.

And, people think this govt is "uplifting" India's image internationally.

[Bullet500]

Just to complete the circle, this happened a month ago. https://www.thequint.com/us-nri-news/indian-american-racially-abused-by-sikh-man-california

Full video (language warning): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78o1epqMW5E